Validation vs Enabling

[Edgewood]

I'm a family member, new to trying to "stop making it worse."  I'm having some trouble distinguishing between validating my sis's feelings and contributing to her denial. 

I am solution-oriented, which doesn't seem to go over well with people who just want to complain.  I have an uBPD mother and sister, and they both just want to be heard, I think.  My natural reaction is to offer solutions, which drives them crazy.  It also drives me crazy to hear the same complaints, year after year, with no attempt at changing their circumstances.

I don't feel like I have to break through their denial.  Actually, in some instances, I think denial is a luxury, so I'm not compelled to take it from anyone.  But, when it's coming from someone repeatedly expressing dissatisfaction with their situation, it seems obvious to look at solutions. 

I know that I'm seeing it wrong, but I can't seem to get a handle on this.  How can I validate their feelings without contributing to their denial (or complacency, or whatever it is)?

[Kwamina]

Hi Edgewood,

I think I understand the dilemma you're facing here. The following information might help you find the right balance:

Let's first look at the importance of being true and authentic to ourselves. If we can't be true and authentic, we are sacrificing ourselves for the benefit of another, and we are most likely enabling another person's dysfunction. This helps no one.

For these reason, validation is never about lying, it is not about being ruled by the emotions of others, and it is not letting people "walk all over us". We never want to validate the “invalid”.

Validating someone's thoughts, feelings, or beliefs does not necessarily mean we agree, overall, with what they are thinking, or feeling, or with their behavior.

So, the first thing to learn in validating others is to be able to identify something to validate in a "sea" of conflict that is both valid and important to the other person.

Finding a validation target and mirroring it back from the other person's perspective (empathizing) is the crux of effective validating.

If you want to tell your BPD relatives the truth about how you feel about their behavior, the S.E.T. technique often mentioned on this website can be very helpful. In S.E.T. the technique of validation is basically used as a tool that will decrease conflict, make it easier for you to express your truth and increase the chances of you getting through to them (though there's no guarantee that you will get through them).

When first learning about SET, it can seem that you are being asked to agree with the BP. It important to clarify that validating feelings does not mean that you agree with them, only that you recognize that the BP is feeling them. The supportive communication described in the SET model does not mean that you are letting the BP off the hook, instead you are focusing on honest communication and ensuring that you are being heard, not just reacting to and defending against what is being said.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Edgewood!  I so get where you are on this.  I have a uBPDsis, and things only really got bad last year, when my Mum died, and she just completely turned on me.  I have posted quite a lot about the hate mail, the pathological lies, the slanderous accusations etc, so I won't bore you with it all.   For a long time we had what I thought was a reasonable relationship - but I know now it was only ok because 1) I live over an hour from her and didn't see her that much, though we spoke on the phone a lot - usually about all her problems and dramas, 2) I didn't challenge her on all the wild stories of all the terrible things that people (utility companies, various work places etc.) were doing to her over the years, because usually they started with (what I thought was) a grain of truth, and so I thought that while there was clearly a lot of attention seeking, victim playing, sympathy, and a lot of exaggeration, I didn't want to compound her hurt feelings by being harsh. It was only after the distortion campaign against me began last year that I realised that there probably was never one single grain of truth in the whole lot.   Like you - I am very solution oriented, and the dramas she presented usually had a simple solution, after months and in some cases years of talking about the same things I would sometimes lose patience, and say, not harshly, but I would say that there wasn't any more I could say - as I could see x ways of solving the problem, but she clearly didn't want, or wasn't ready to do any of them, so what more was there to say?  This would usually result in her getting a bit huffy, or moving on to something else.  I also noticed when she told these stories to other people, that often the details changed, and usually got a bit wilder.  It was only when she really turned on me - and, once I came out of the shocked and hurt phase, that I realised that the lies she was telling about me were absolutely off the scale - they were pathological, they made no sense, they didn't serve any purpose, and they were so wild - no one would believe them so what was the point?  That's when I started doing research and realised that it wasn't just about hating me more than I'd ever dreamed - she was clearly ill.  But I don't know what difference I was ever in a position to make.  If I had been tougher and less sympathetic years ago - we wouldn't have had the relationship we did all those years, and I did give her a lot of support.  I wasn't consciously validating or enabling her - I was trying to be a friend and a sister to someone who seemed to struggle with life, despite being bright, attractive, having a reasonably good job, her own home etc.  I thought that was fair enough, and even though, sometimes she clearly resented me, and would make digs at me, I never really bit back, because I knew when I put the phone down, I had my family around me, and she was on her own.  I will never know, if, had I been different it would have helped her, but I honestly think she would have just turned on me sooner.  When she turned on me last year, it was when I disagreed with her on something, but it wasn't a life changing thing, and it wasn't something that any normal person would get upset about - it wasn't a personal thing, just a difference of opinion.  I think the trauma of losing my Mum, who she had lived with (her choice - she had her own home but never liked living alone) for the last 3 years, triggered her enormously, and the strain of dealing with the estate, and the changes it necessitated was just too much for her.  I would have been happy to sort everything out, but get her agreement on everything but she insisted on taking charge, and then basically made life impossible, told solicitors lies, tried to stop me getting any money, tried to prevent houses being sold etc.  It has been a nightmare 18 months, because until it is all finished I can't walk away - I have a legal obligation as executor.  But I suppose what I'm saying is just do what you can do, but don't get eaten up in the process, and don't beat yourself up for trying to do the right thing, or for not being able to make them happy, or save them.  It can't be done my friend.  And when they really turn, and would clearly be only too happy to run you into the ground, wise up and protect yourself, go NC or whatever you have to do.  I never say never, when all this legal stuff is over, I will have a long break from even thinking about her, and then I will see what options there are to get her some help.  I think I owe that to my Mum and Dad.  But I can't sacrifice my life, or my mental health over it - because that won't help her anyway, and I don't deserve to ruin my life over it - I never did anything wrong!  Anyway - it was a bad day today - lots of solicitor and estate agent stuff - people being jerked around and I have to be involved - so - sorry - turned into a rant!  I wish you well.  JB

[Ziggiddy]

Hi Edgewood

I think it's commendable that you are solution oriented. It is so much more satisfying than complaining.

I wonder though who your solution is aimed at.

It also drives me crazy to hear the same complaints, year after year, with no attempt at changing their circumstances.

  But, when it's coming from someone repeatedly expressing dissatisfaction with their situation, it seems obvious to look at solutions. 

  How can I validate their feelings without contributing to their denial (or complacency, or whatever it is)?

If it drives you crazy, then there must be another reason that you listen? if finding a solution is your aim and they refuse to change or find the solutions themselves then there must be some other reason you do it?

Are you able to speculate as to what other payoff you might be getting?

Are you actually trying to validate invalid thoughts/feelings?

Eg my mother - "Your father is so selfish. i always think of him and he never thinks of me. Last night he (insert 'crime' here'"

Me: "Uh huh.  Selfishness is very annoying (It's true but really hasn't anything to do with my mother who is incredibly selfish or my father who is just ignorant)

Another eg "I hate summer. it gets too hot and my plants die and I sweat and it puts me in a bad mood"

Me: some effects of summer can be very annoying.

Note what I didn't say! I didn't say "Maybe you could (do this) about Dad?" Or "Yes Dad can be selfish"

I didn't say "maybe you could (do this) for your plants" or "Can you turn on your airconditioner?"

Validation is something I use to keep communication lines open rather than as a way to generate help.

In the end, these complaints are circular and decades in duration.

My solutions won't work for her and my suggestions are just fodder for something to criticise or push back against.

Do you want to solve the problems, Edgewood? Do you feel like you might be thought better of for listening if you try to help?

Or is the payoff personal? you did what was best for your conscience?

I'd be curious as to your thoughts on your motivations.

Ziggiddy

[Edgewood]

Kwamina, thanks again.  I think I do still need to practice SET to better learn what validation is and what it isn’t.

Linda Maria, your story is so close to mirroring mine!  I appreciate you sharing it with me.

Ziggiddy, thanks for making me think about why I should validate. You know, it really is NOT commendable to be solution-oriented.  That just works for me, but it frustrates others - not just my BPD family members, either.  My tendency to solve problems is part of my communication problem with my sister.  She has told me that for years and I think she’s right. I'm pretty sure that I am not validating the invalid.  I think I may be trying to correct what I think is invalid, and I understand that this is my own mistake.  No wonder I make sis mad!

For instance, she lives with my uBPD mom, which isn’t good for either of them.  It has really made sis’s behavior worse.  But, she is financially dependent on Mom, in part because her behavioral problems have caused LOTS of employment failures.  At this point, she won’t even try to get a job.  She also has medical issues (beyond her uBPD) that may afford her disability, but she won’t seek the diagnoses or follow through with treatment to make a case.  So, when sis complains about what Mom does to her, she is just venting about what happened this morning; she just wants to get it off her chest, you know? She just wants me to say, “That sucks.”  I, on the other hand, have heard these same arguments for years, and am tired of them.  And, as you know, pwBPD don’t complain in a “normal” fashion; these are violent, yelling, swearing, fist-banging, exaggerated (often untrue) complaints.  (And they are about my mother, so I want to defend her.  See?  I'm trying to correct what I think is  invalid.)  And, I see the bigger picture, which is that she is “stuck” under Mom’s roof, to remain at her mercy unless something changes.  And (as you implied), when Mom passes or kicks her out or goes to assisted living, I am the one who will be facing the fact that sis has no means to support herself, and I will feel obligated.  God, I fear that day . . .

You are right, Ziggiddy, I want to solve the problem - for lots of different reasons, including selfishness.  I want her to either get treatment that will allow her to work a job that would afford her a place of her own where she can make her own decisions without Mom on her @ss all the time, pushing her buttons.  OR I want her to be on disability, also allowing her the small income that it would require to make her happy.  She really doesn’t want much other than to be self-directing.  I would love to see her be able to do that, with or without further progress.  If she had that, she could remain as crazy as she is today and still be pretty happy.

To complicate it, Mom has her own physical dependency on sis and the whole story could be told from her side in nearly the same words. I am mad at both of them for the way they treat each other.  At the same time, I feel like I have to defend both of them from the other.  And, I know that it’s my sense of obligation that places this stress on me.  I have learned to step back, which has helped.  

But, validate?  I don’t know.  I think my own (perceived) sense of obligation is in my way, here.

Further, I think my interpretation is a little off, too.  Your example of  “Uh huh.  Selfishness is very annoying,” really helped me sort what validation is and what it isn’t.  At the same time, to me, those words sound supportive of your mom’s demonization of your dad.  I’m just not getting this, am I?

[Ziggiddy]

Haha! Oh Edgewood! Don't think you're not getting it. You are thinking hard about what you want and that is the point!

I'll do this in a couple of points.

Yes my validation DOES sound like it's supporting to my mum bagging out my dad - to YOU and to HER but not to ME.

All I actually said was that selfishness is very annoying. It's quite a broad statement and it's true. She can take it away and construe whatever meaning she likes to it. She has that right.

I take away the fact that I said something I believe is true and I didn't engage in a conflict.

I validated that selfishness is annoying - not that my dad is selfish. Do you see the difference? I am not responsible for what she decides to make of it.

And don't be tough on yourself. Learning to navigate the BPD minefield is tricky.

I would also draw to your attention what you mentioned about being solution oriented is not commendable - it all depends on who the solution is for!

If you are trying to solve your sister's problem then that is not commendable but if you are trying to solve your problem it is.

Your problem is not the same as her problem.

Ok I'll use the above example again to illustrate: my mum's problem is that she feels my dad is selfish. My problem is that I don't see the point in arguing with her or agreeing with her. Two quite different problems.

The real point is this I don't validate what she said to agree with her - I validate the part of what she said that I feel is true for me.

i am not doing it to help her - I am doing it in order to disengage from emotive parts of the conversation. The payoff is that I get to communicate without fighting which is nice for me. Her payoff is her business.

I find the real trick is in allowing the other person the right to make all their own decisions and own all the consequences and credit for those decisions.

For instance, she lives with my uBPD mom, which isn’t good for either of them.

I can understand you love them both and want to help but extenuating circumstances aside, and with all due respect, they have made this choice and are entitled to all the benefits and drawbacks.

she is financially dependent on Mom, in part because her behavioral problems have caused LOTS of employment failures.  At this point, she won’t even try to get a job.  She also has medical issues (beyond her uBPD) that may afford her disability, but she won’t seek the diagnoses or follow through with treatment to make a case.

Again if this is the course she has chosen isn't it her right to reap the benefits and the drawbacks?

Of course you can always try and help your mother understand that by supporting your sister financially, she is enabling her to not take steps to address the problems that prevent her from securing her own income, but ultimately is it really your problem?

And as far as your sense of obligation goes to care for her in the future, ask yourself what would happen if you were somehow not in the picture at that time? (Got a great job o'seas, hit by a bus etc)

So, when sis complains about what Mom does to her, she is just venting about what happened this morning; she just wants to get it off her chest, you know? She just wants me to say, “That sucks.”  I, on the other hand, have heard these same arguments for years, and am tired of them. 

yeah I get this: quite understandable though. You seem to be cast into the helper role whether by them or by yourself but it does get old to hear the same old same old doesn't it?

And, as you know, pwBPD don’t complain in a “normal” fashion; these are violent, yelling, swearing, fist-banging, exaggerated (often untrue) complaints.  (And they are about my mother, so I want to defend her.  See?  I'm trying to correct what I think is  invalid.)

Well you have a right to do that. It may be worth your while to consider placing a boundary here, like "Sis - I understand you feel that way but I don't agree. I would rather not hear it." This validates implicitly her right to complain but protects your right to disagree and be spared conflict/violence.

Then if she continues you may enforce the boundary with a warning and a consequence.

"Sis I asked you not to (____) if you continue I will leave (or whatever timeout you require)

Edgewood it really is about you owning your stuff and you allowing them to own their stuff. Good and bad. Boundaries and validation aren't to change them or their ways of thinking/behaving - they are for you to manage your own feelings/behaviour when engaging with them!

[Edgewood]

Ziggiddy, are you implying that I should solve my own problems and ONLY my own problems?  That I don't have to fix everything? That I should attend to my life and let them attend to theirs?  Why, that can't be right!   

I'm joking, but in all honesty, these people have given me their problems to solve all my life.  And I have solved them (so it's my fault, too), without question.  Thank you for helping me question it.  Not only is is counter-intuitive not to do this, but it seems like it's not being a good daughter/sister.  Family members just do this for each other, right?  Other family members and family friends have even INSISTED that I involve myself.  Yet, what I want to do (stop helping) is exactly what I SHOULD do? 

You wouldn't believe how long I have dreamed of working overseas for a couple years - it's so odd that you chose that as an example!  I'd better get moving.  I've got to pack my bags!   

THANK YOU

[Linda Maria]

Hi Edgewood!  Interesting our stories mirror each other - but I have found that over and over again on this board, which helps you realise that it is not you going mad, and this stuff is happening to other people.  It also helped me realise that my sis really does seem to have BPD - I was worried for a while I was just "labelling" her to help myself deal with it, but I am now very sure.  Zigiddy's words are spot on. I am, like you, solution oriented and a bit of a people pleaser, and I genuinely want to help people.  My Mum and my sister had a difficult relationship - because my sister is so difficult, and my Mum was a strong character who wouldn't be pushed around, and spoke up if she thought my sister was talking crap.  But there is no doubt they loved each other, the last couple of years it felt a bit as though my Mum was being bullied in her own home (not all the time, and bullied is possibly a bit strong).  For years I used to try to keep the peace, mainly with my sister, and try to help them avoid confrontations, and sometimes be a middleman, but one day I realised that you can't make people do what you think is right, you can't make people like each other, or work together etc. and there's no point trying.  They were both grown ups, it wasn't my job to manipulate them or "fix" things.  My natural instinct is still to fix things, but this last 18 months has really toughened me up - I think going through the menopause at the same time has helped - all that increased testosterone flowing round has been quite useful sometimes!  But mainly I think - I have taken so much crap in the last 18 months that my crap-o-meter is broken, and I literally can't take any more on board!  I have had to really work at not getting wound up and angry about it all, because if I don't, then when my kids play up, or my husband is a pain, all just normal stuff, I completely overreact, which is not like me usually.  So going through something like this does change you.  I think long term I will be a stronger person for it, though perhaps less willing to take on other peoples problems than I used to be.  But maybe that's not a bad thing.  I wish you well with it all.  You are so NOT alone!

[Ziggiddy]

haha - love your tongue-in-cheek style there Edgewood!

As far as problems go they are there to be solved are they not? I guess it all comes down to this - which problems do you want to solve and are you willing to live with the consequences? Me I'm so tired of offering solutions. I used to think that one day I would be recognised and haled for my genius contributions to my family's dilemmas but I finally got tired of all the 'special conditions' my folks need catering for ('But we live out of town! But our roof is different than anyone else's! But we only get mail 3 times a week! But if I pay for it with the credit card I get 55 days interest free!etc etc)

I only have this much energy. One more eyeroll from those that I am trying to help and I will blow out on the crap-o-meter. (LindaMaria THAT is my new favourite phrase!)

Ah the wonderful joy. Help and get argued with why my solutions won't work or be groomed and patted for such great suggestions which get ignored a few moments later.

Putting the fun into dysfunctional

Sorry is my cynicism showing?

[claudiaduffy]

Ziggiddy, are you implying that I should solve my own problems and ONLY my own problems?  That I don't have to fix everything? That I should attend to my life and let them attend to theirs?  Why, that can't be right!   

Edgewood, I'm cracking up and giving you a high-five over here. I always have to remind myself of what you just said.