Accepting that all the good is a part of their illness as well

[clydegriffith]

In reading a lot of posts here, i think it's very important for us to come to terms with the fact that these peoples' illness is just as responsbile for all the great things these may have done with/to us, or said about us, as it is for all the bad. We tend to blame the illness on the bad stuff and think that the good times were somewhat real, because we were special, etc, etc.

[tim_tom]

Agree completely

[lm911]

The sad true is that we loved a person that is not real. They just miror and look like the perfect person we have searched all life. They think like as, act like as. Until one day - BOOM you are all black and devalued and this was all part of their sick behaviour due to the fact they fear rejection and only if they are perfect in our eyes - they will be not rejected.

[Deeno02]

The only good that came from this is being able to bond with her autistic son, I hope he will remember me as a good man. I do so miss her 5 kids as my 2 kids miss them too. Another shattered family dynamic.

[honeysuckle]

There is a lot of truth in this. I remember thinking why didn't anyone else ever think I was this great before. It was nice to feel seen and idolized. I didn't trust it at first then I craved it. Who doesn't want to be adored? It makes us over look the oddity of the "good" If you look at the big picture its just as dysfunctional as the "bad." just feels better.

[Blimblam]

Yeah, there was good and bad.  It really is all twisted and confusing.  The way their mind processes is so much different.  One thing was interesting was how my ex would say oh so and so is so nice they gave me a m&m and they are such a good person.  Mean while you ca obviously see that person doesn't really care about your ex.  It is like their is a level of experience they just can't allow themselves to get to in themself.  At the same time they can be the most giving people I have ever encountered.  The sad thing is they will give themself to anyone and that person may or may not appreciate how giving that person actually is.  It's almost like the pwBPD wants to give and give and be rejected and given crumbs.  But then again many of us end up acting the same way in the end.  Giving and giving an accepting crumbs.

[clydegriffith]

To further add to my original post, the BPD we each had the misfortune of crossing paths with all had this illness before they met us. They didn't just start acting this way and it's not on us to save them. There were others before, there will be others after, heck if it wasn't for the illness we probably wouldn't have been with them to begin with.

[myself]

Our exes have feelings, hopes, and dreams, too.

They're human. Great sometimes, making mistakes, and all of it.

To just see them as an illness is black & white thinking.

Not every move they make in life is because they have a 'disorder'.

There were times they really loved us, laughed with us, etc.

It's easy to just lump them all together but it's not really like that.

[KeepOnGoing]

There is a lot of truth in this. I remember thinking why didn't anyone else ever think I was this great before. It was nice to feel seen and idolized. I didn't trust it at first then I craved it. Who doesn't want to be adored? It makes us over look the oddity of the "good" If you look at the big picture its just as dysfunctional as the "bad." just feels better.

Oh bravo, honeysuckle. Well said, and explained.

[clydegriffith]

Our exes have feelings, hopes, and dreams, too.

They're human. Great sometimes, making mistakes, and all of it.

To just see them as an illness is black & white thinking.

Not every move they make in life is because they have a 'disorder'.

There were times they really loved us, laughed with us, etc.

It's easy to just lump them all together but it's not really like that.

While they are human, i'm not going to fool myself into thinking the good times i shared with this woman were a sense of any real connection. The extreme love she showed was also a part of her sickness and like honeysuckle said it's just as dysfunctional-we just don't notice it because it doesn't hurt. Think about it, isn't it odd that someone you just met would obsess over you in such a manner. I recall thinking to myself, " why is she so obessed, i'm just a regular guy" but you know what, it does feel good and it's human nature to want to hear people tell you youre' the greatest thing since sliced bread. We know it's not true but most people won't come out and say- hey i'm not as great as you're making me out to be. I defintley didnt.

I was a tool she used to escape the horrible situation she had made of the relationship she was in before she was with me. She got what she wanted and proceeded to make a horrible situation of our relationship as well, and the one after me and no doubt it's just a matter of time before i get another call from her family about something crazy that happens in the latest relationship.

[hergestridge]

Our exes have feelings, hopes, and dreams, too.

They're human. Great sometimes, making mistakes, and all of it.

To just see them as an illness is black & white thinking.

Not every move they make in life is because they have a 'disorder'.

There were times they really loved us, laughed with us, etc.

It's easy to just lump them all together but it's not really like that.

Well... .the inconsistency that you describe *is* the problem. What good is a "sometimes" love? And what is characteristic for a human more than having a "self", something that is weakened with a person with BPD?

[antelope]

There were times they really loved us,

^this should actually read: 'there were times we fulfilled their needs really well, and they liked us for that... .moment'

someone who hates themselves so much is incapable of loving someone else... .there is no frame of reference for them in what 'love' is in terms of honesty, consistency, and reciprocity

... .and let's be BRUTALLY honest with ourselves here: we didn't 'love' them either... .we loved the way they made us feel at the beginning, and we worked tooth and nail to try to re-capture that... .who we loved wasn't real and doesn't really exist... .

... .and perhaps we didn't love them either b/c we entered the relationship w/o having a consistent, unconditional love for ourselves

[tim_tom]

There were times they really loved us

Sure, but I don't think it was anymore genuine then the times that they hated us... Just manifestations of the disorder

I think the trouble people get in that leads to a long recovery, is they blame the bad stuff on the disorder and think the good stuff is the real person minus the disorder. I was never the greatest guy in the world that she said I was when we first started dating, just like I'm not a complete POS now.

Seeing the relationship for what it was, as a seriously dysfunctional relationship from day 1 is liberating.

Even knowing this however, at times, I'll reminisce and remember how devoted she was to me... and I miss it. But it's like wanting parks, and schools and infrastructure without paying taxes. You don't get one without the other. The extreme attachment and detachment need each other to exist.

[Blimblam]

Our exes have feelings, hopes, and dreams, too.

They're human. Great sometimes, making mistakes, and all of it.

To just see them as an illness is black & white thinking.

Not every move they make in life is because they have a 'disorder'.

There were times they really loved us, laughed with us, etc.

It's easy to just lump them all together but it's not really like that.

While they are human, i'm not going to fool myself into thinking the good times i shared with this woman were a sense of any real connection. The extreme love she showed was also a part of her sickness and like honeysuckle said it's just as dysfunctional-we just don't notice it because it doesn't hurt. Think about it, isn't it odd that someone you just met would obsess over you in such a manner. I recall thinking to myself, " why is she so obessed, i'm just a regular guy" but you know what, it does feel good and it's human nature to want to hear people tell you youre' the greatest thing since sliced bread. We know it's not true but most people won't come out and say- hey i'm not as great as you're making me out to be. I defintley didnt.

I was a tool she used to escape the horrible situation she had made of the relationship she was in before she was with me. She got what she wanted and proceeded to make a horrible situation of our relationship as well, and the one after me and no doubt it's just a matter of time before i get another call from her family about something crazy that happens in the latest relationship.

Here is the thing falling in love and being in love is a type of madness.  Love is irrational and dysfunctional by it's very nature. 

Out exs did love us like a small child loves their parent. Like an infatuated lover and like a child loves it's pet.  These emotions are real and they felt them intensely.  For a time I was literally my exs world and she was mine.  Is that dysfunctional? Yea probably. 

My experience was real and so was my exs. We both projected.

I often see people choose some sort of standard of what love is to prove the pwBPD is completely invalid.  Love is many different things to many different situations. 

[myself]

I agree with what many here have said. The behaviors described, overly idealizing or devaluing, do not lead to healthy relationships. If it helps you to move on by demonizing/scapegoating your ex, then that's your process. I choose to face the facts, not just putting my ex into a box labeled 'disordered', saying every single thing she ever did or does is due to that. I understand that much of the good she shared with me was on a level similar to the bad, as far as where it was coming from. But I also know that some of it was a genuine connection. That she's capable of it and found it with me. Short lived as those moments may have been, I do believe they were real. For HER, not just me. Could I stay with her? No, for many of the same reasons others have posted here. But I'm not going to just paint her black, it's not seeing the whole picture or being truthful about what I experienced. Acceptance transcends Bpd, pain, etc. Each of our stories is different though.  

[SpringInMyStep]

In reading a lot of posts here, i think it's very important for us to come to terms with the fact that these peoples' illness is just as responsbile for all the great things these may have done with/to us, or said about us, as it is for all the bad. We tend to blame the illness on the bad stuff and think that the good times were somewhat real, because we were special, etc, etc.

I completely agree... .the memory of the good stuff is ruined because we can't really trust it. The good things about her were not genuine, which is why I think this whole process is so hard.

We fell in love with someone who turned out to not be the person we thought they were. It can really mess with your head! This is part of why I'm so angry... .I don't have any good memories of her because I don't trust them. Everything is skewed.

[tim_tom]

I agree with what many here have said. The behaviors described, overly idealizing or devaluing, do not lead to healthy relationships. If it helps you to move on by demonizing/scapegoating your ex, then that's your process. I choose to face the facts, not just putting my ex into a box labeled 'disordered', saying every single thing she ever did or does is due to that. I understand that much of the good she shared with me was on a level similar to the bad, as far as where it was coming from. But I also know that some of it was a genuine connection. That she's capable of it and found it with me. Short lived as those moments may have been, I do believe they were real. For HER, not just me. Could I stay with her? No, for many of the same reasons others have posted here. But I'm not going to just paint her black, it's not seeing the whole picture or being truthful about what I experienced. Acceptance transcends Bpd, pain, etc. Each of our stories is different though.  

It's not about painting anyone black, it's about understanding that BPD manifests itself in ways that both create intense positive bonds and intensely negative devaluation. Had your ex not had BPD, the connection during idealization would've never been as intense. imo, the whole relationship was based on manifestations of disordered behavior. If you want to call that real, in a sense, yes it is... but not in a healthy or emotional mature way.

[clydegriffith]

Lots of very thoughtful and articulate answers here, everyone. Thanks for the replies!

[Deeno02]

I really am clueless as to what was real or fantasy. All I know is the end result was real enough.

[Blimblam]

I agree with what many here have said. The behaviors described, overly idealizing or devaluing, do not lead to healthy relationships. If it helps you to move on by demonizing/scapegoating your ex, then that's your process. I choose to face the facts, not just putting my ex into a box labeled 'disordered', saying every single thing she ever did or does is due to that. I understand that much of the good she shared with me was on a level similar to the bad, as far as where it was coming from. But I also know that some of it was a genuine connection. That she's capable of it and found it with me. Short lived as those moments may have been, I do believe they were real. For HER, not just me. Could I stay with her? No, for many of the same reasons others have posted here. But I'm not going to just paint her black, it's not seeing the whole picture or being truthful about what I experienced. Acceptance transcends Bpd, pain, etc. Each of our stories is different though.  

It's not about painting anyone black, it's about understanding that BPD manifests itself in ways that both create intense positive bonds and intensely negative devaluation. Had your ex not had BPD, the connection during idealization would've never been as intense. imo, the whole relationship was based on manifestations of disordered behavior. If you want to call that real, in a sense, yes it is... but not in a healthy or emotional mature way.

Well, of course it's real. It's just we project associations we expect to have with what those symbols triggered in us emotionally. A pwBPD gives so much of themself in that initial bonding phase that it triggers instinctual responses in us.  It has to do with symbol recognition and the way a pwBPD has mastered some facial expressions. They trigger an archetype within us and how we relate to that archetype is what we project onto our exes.  It is an intense connection and one I don't expect to ever have again with another person.  It's a part of the disorder but it is real.  

[Pingo]

I really am clueless as to what was real or fantasy. All I know is the end result was real enough.

I thought I'd go crazy trying to figure out what was real, what was fiction.  I finally gave up.  It doesn't matter.  It isn't going to make my pain go away.  I loved my exh.  That was real.  And I think he loved me as best as he was able to.  Everyone has a different idea of what love is anyhow, even in healthy people.  We've got a thread about this somewhere.

[vortex of confusion]

Some of the good and some of the bad were due to the illness. Underneath the illness and during times of normalcy, I think that those times were real. I don't even care whether or not they were real to him. He and I have had such different perceptions and interpretations of things that there is no way to know what he was really thinking or feeling. His feelings (whether based on projection or mirroring or something else) are and were very real. If I start questioning what is real and what isn't, it will drive me crazy. We have been together almost 18 years and got together when we were both in our 20's. We were both young and stupid.

I know what I experienced and how I experienced it. I have spent years trying to figure out what is real and what isn't. I don't care whether or not the good or bad is a result of the illness. Sometimes, it is better to accept things for what they are or at least how I perceive them to be. There have been so many times over the years that I have questioned myself and over analyzed things because he would make excuses or try to explain things away.

At the end of the day, the illness is part of who they are. Whether good, bad, or indifferent, it can't really be separated out into this good was real, this good was part of the illness, etc. The person has an illness and that made the two of you incompatible. I am not convinced that I don't have some kind of mental illness. I have seen myself in a lot of the posts talking about different behaviors exhibited by partners with BPD traits. If I discovered that I had some kind of mental illness, I would hate for somebody to say that everything that I do or don't do is a result of an illness. It reminds me of being a teenager when my mother used to blame every little bitty thing on being a teenager rather than seeing me as a person with real thoughts, feelings, and struggles. I can see my spouse as a real person separate from the illness and still say, "Hey, this isn't working for me. I can't spend the rest of my life like this while you blame everything on your addiction/mental condition." At some point, illness or not, the person can and should be held accountable for the good and the bad without blaming it all on the illness.

Maybe, perhaps, the person isn't ill and is really just a big ole jerk! I know my husband is a sex addict and uses that as an excuse for a lot of behaviors. There are times when he is going on and on about how the addiction makes him do this that and the other and I am sitting here thinking, "Sure, maybe you have a mental illness or something going on but that does not give you the right to treat me like this. Maybe, just maybe, you are nothing more than a selfish a$$hole and all of the mental illness is just your get out of jail free card to get you sympathy so you don't have to take responsibility for your actions." I want to hold him accountable for all of it, the good, the bad, and everything in between.

(sigh. . .sorry for the rant/vent. . .it is another night of him falling asleep after a long hard night of gaming while I put the kids to bed, did the shopping, bill paying, cooking, etcetera and so on. There is no relationship. It is dead and has been for a while. To me, it feels like all we do is live in the same house even though he will go on and act like he is doing so great and that things are improving between us. Um, okay, whatever you say!)

[Dutched]

Clydegriffit, it is a disorder, not an illness.

I agree with Songbook

Our exes have feelings, hopes, and dreams, too.

They're human. Great sometimes, making mistakes, and all of it.

To just see them as an illness is black & white thinking.

Not every move they make in life is because they have a 'disorder'.

There were times they really loved us, laughed with us, etc.

It's easy to just lump them all together but it's not really like that.

So let’s forget 1 minute about “the inner child”, “projections”, “our wounded self” “child – parent”, etc.

Than what is the very rational outcome?

We shopped together, socialised, attended birthdays, events, lived together, doing household jobs, spent holidays, we jointly shared our average days, etc.

If the answer is YES, so, what does it makes the ex partner? Someone with a reptile brain? Only having an Hypothalamus in order to fulfil life basic needs (hunt, eat, sleep, basic fear for attacks and to reproduce the species)?

As it is an attachment disorder, the disorder manifest itself in certain situations. Situations for the BPD perceived as threatening, causing a emotional intense upheaval (fear for losing the attachment). A fear even we can’t imagine (like touching a 3rd degree burning wound). Originated by that fear of losing the so craved attachment pwBPD will desperately try to gain control over that situation in order to deflect inner turmoil, pain and fear.

For us? We experienced it as many, many devastating stories told on this Board.

Imagine, building a live with kids for 30+ yrs. and dumped in a blink of an eye. In order to understand my whole life (to heal), I must have to “label” all exw once did as “disordered”, all exw dreams as expressed to be disordered? 

Already before I knew anything of a disorder at all I was able to pick up her signs (ex stated more than once that I knew her better than she knew herself, which in a way gave her a fearful feeling).

During the last years I learned about BPD, went a 2 yrs. to a local Group, learned techniques, etc. 

Next comes the difficult understanding part (the WHAT / WHY and reaction on it)

Surely, no deny, we faced one of the emotional most devastating situations! 

And yes Blim.  Love is emotional, not rational. I am glad it is emotion, otherwise we would be reptilians... .(too)... .

[myself]

Here's a way of looking at it that's helped me.

Is your ex a person with a disorder, or a disorder with a person?

That humanness is what we related to the most, imo.

[peiper]

In reading a lot of posts here, i think it's very important for us to come to terms with the fact that these peoples' illness is just as responsbile for all the great things these may have done with/to us, or said about us, as it is for all the bad. We tend to blame the illness on the bad stuff and think that the good times were somewhat real, because we were special, etc, etc.

That is one very good point ! The way I look at it they are like a blank sheet of paper, their going to write down exactly what their emotions are telling them, Valid or not, usually not.

[tim_tom]

Here's a way of looking at it that's helped me.

Is your ex a person with a disorder, or a disorder with a person?

That humanness is what we related to the most, imo.

To each his own I guess, but I don't think you can excuse the bad as being the "disorder" and credit the good to their humanity. The intense bond you had in the begginning? That was the disorder speaking.

[hergestridge]

One of the qualities I liked about my wife - at least initially - was the fact that she attached to me 100%, unconditionally right when we met. I didn't have to get to know her in order to become her girlfriend. 100% commitment without me having to do any work.

Now I know why it was this way. It was all about her. I was just an object. That was part of the illness. The teddy bear syndrome.

Some things were so easy in a BPD relationship. Between the ___storms I found myself being left alone with almost no demands put on me at all. At least for the first few years.

Now when I am meeting other women I find the process of getting to know them, building attachment and trust to be absolutely nerve wracking. I am making an effort to listen, respect and really thinking of what I can bring to their table. A BPD relationship didn't bring out the best in me either.

[CareTaker]

To further add to my original post, the BPD we each had the misfortune of crossing paths with all had this illness before they met us. They didn't just start acting this way and it's not on us to save them. There were others before, there will be others after, heck if it wasn't for the illness we probably wouldn't have been with them to begin with.

I must agree with others, that this is a disorder, an not an illness. For illness there is medication, but nothing for this disorder.

Yes, we had some good times. The attention I got was great, when she was in a good mood. But she often thought like a child. Especially when we were arguing. Her responses to arguments where extremely childish. She would divert off the issue and rather start insulting you for something that happened long ago.

After we broke up, and I heard my replacement was hooked, I looked up her fashion blog. Now sadly she had gone for a summer shoot in bathing costume. The pics where pathetic. On the beach with blocks of flats in the background. I did a photographic course once, and worked for our newspaper on a freelance basis. So I know what I am talking about. When doing a shoot at the beach, use the sun, sand and see. The models on the pics where so small, that it looked more like a scenery shoot. On the one pic the sea was at such an angle it looked more like a waterfall. You just cannot compare the pics I took of her, with these ones, I presume my replacement took. Yet, she loaded this on the net so all her toy boys can tell her how pretty she is. Despite the fact the pics look bad, in her mind she just needs confirmation of her looks and needs to feel wanted.

Just like a child.

[tim_tom]

One of the qualities I liked about my wife - at least initially - was the fact that she attached to me 100%, unconditionally right when we met. I didn't have to get to know her in order to become her girlfriend. 100% commitment without me having to do any work.

Now I know why it was this way. It was all about her. I was just an object. That was part of the illness. The teddy bear syndrome.

Some things were so easy in a BPD relationship. Between the ___storms I found myself being left alone with almost no demands put on me at all. At least for the first few years.

Now when I am meeting other women I find the process of getting to know them, building attachment and trust to be absolutely nerve wracking. I am making an effort to listen, respect and really thinking of what I can bring to their table. A BPD relationship didn't bring out the best in me either.

Yes, I started a thread about this a long time back. It's going to be very strange the first time I court a regular women, my story with my BPD is the exact same. I didn't do anything to get her and never had a doubt about her until devaluation started. It's almost like the relationship occurred in reverse.

I was instantly secure knowing how much she liked (loved) me, the attachment was intense, then she slowly began to devalue me more and more leading to anxiety over what she was feeling and thinking towards the end. A normal relationship starts with anxiety and worrying and gets secure in it's attachment over time.

[hergestridge]

A normal relationship starts with anxiety and worrying and gets secure in it's attachment over time.

I am so happy to hear that being said. I am getting to know a girl right now and it seems she likes me, but (what I read as) her hesitation is driving me insane. I have to get it out of my system that love equals instant commitment. We have known eachother for a couple of months and right now she's even asked me out. But my mind is going like "... .why isn't she moving in?"