When they lie about insignificant stuff, what do you do?

[Cat Familiar]

This one catches me off guard on occasion. Having had a mother with uBPD as well as an ex-husband and now uBPD husband (I guess it's not really undiagnosed, as our therapist basically admitted to me in private that he has a personality disorder)--I've noticed that they all lie sometimes about things that really don't matter much and when challenged as to the veracity of the statement, dig their heels in and refuse to budge from their position.

Case in point: Recently one of my elderly cats had some medical issues--one thing after another. If untreated, any one of them could have been life-threatening. In addition to taking him to the vet, I spent a lot of time treating him--giving him fluids, force-feeding him and medicating him and he kept rebounding. I knew his time was short, but I wanted to take the best care of him as I could and he was doing well, for the most part.

Just last week I realized that he had used up the last of his "nine lives" and was going to die soon. Friday night I realized he was dying and that he wanted to do so outside. It was a cold night, so I kept visiting him in our fenced garden and placing a down vest over him, while simultaneously cooking dinner.

In the middle of dinner, my husband chose to bring up the fact that we have a problem with drainage on a project I had initiated and get really upset about it and the money we had spent getting it done.

Earlier in the week I had spent two hours digging out a culvert, until I realized that I had only dug three feet and I'd have to dig another four feet back. At that point, I called the contractor who was fixing up the issue after I made the poor choice of employing our neighbor, a former heavy equipment operator. We owe the contractor money, so I'm sure he will be back to finish the job when he has time--and I know in his mind (and mine as well) that it's not a critical issue, since water is still draining in the horse pasture, even with the end of the culvert buried. He didn't return my call, so I called someone who has a roto-hammer and can much more quickly dig out the remaining dirt than would be possible with a shovel. I didn't get a call back from them either.

So while we're eating the lovely dinner I had made, my husband is railing about that the road in the pasture will fail (which it won't) and that I don't care. (While I was covered in mud digging out the culvert, he chose to take a joy ride in his sports car.) So I made the mistake of telling him that it wasn't a problem, even the contractor agreed and that he would be back to finish the job when he had a chance.

Also I had previously told him that evening that the cat was dying, which he told me that I had been saying for a month. (This is the lie. Until that evening, I wasn't sure that the cat had only hours to live--and up till the beginning of the week, I thought (as did the vet) that there was a possibility he might be around for several months.)

Next thing my husband is saying is that I always take the opposite side--I know, I know, I didn't validate him.

Finally I had had it--my patience was completely worn out and I stormed out and told him, "F@&k you!" which was the first time in our ten year relationship that I had ever said that to him, although he's said it plenty to me.

I went outside and sat with my cat as he was dying.

Later when I came back to the house, my husband assumed that I wanted him to move out permanently. I told him that wasn't the case at all.

A couple of days later he finally asked about the cat and I told him he had died that night. (It was surreal--for a man who believes he's so tuned into me--he's so f&c*ing oblivious!)

So he justified it--"you've been telling me he's been dying for a month." NO I HAVEN'T, but I didn't say anything.

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[Cat Familiar]

OK, this was kind of a dumb question that can be solved easily by using the lessons.

I guess a better question would be, when they're telling an insignificant lie, how do you catch yourself in your tracks and not respond to it?

I have this obsessive (I guess) need to be truthful and when I don't refute a lie, I feel like I'm agreeing with it.

In a way, ignoring their lie seems like just another way of "walking on eggshells" if it happens regularly. It's not that I tell them they're lying, but rather if they accuse me of something I've said or done that I know not to be true, I've typically said something along the lines of "that's not the way I remember it."

So what are your strategies for ignoring/letting go of these sorts of issues?

[Grey Kitty]

  I still remember when we lost our cat, and it was nine and a half years ago. :'( My wife was the one who knew it was her last day, much more clearly than I did.

I don't know how you make it not personal when you are lied to. I was raised with a very strong value of truthfulness.

My suggestion is to recognize that those lies aren't about you--they are all about his coping mechanisms.

Another thing which has helped me is to realize that truth is very important, but it is not the only thing. Sometimes kindness is more important, especially in a situation where nobody is being deceived by the lie. In your example, you know the truth already. He's doing the fabrication, and there's nobody else there. It is unkind to provoke a fight. Unkind to both yourself and to him.

And the most practical tool from here--remember to avoid being invalidating. There's no way to tell somebody they are lying without invalidating them.

Sometimes you do have to say something invalidating. When you do it, using tools like SET help. The first thing is to make sure it really is important enough to go there.

You know it doesn't matter if he says you said your cat was dying a month ago. You know it hurts too. And you seem to be figuring out that letting it become a fight doesn't reduce the hurt.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty,

Thank you so much for your kind and compassionate reply. It brought tears to my eyes.

Yes, there's no reason to confront lies when they don't matter. I've got a lot to learn and the openness and honesty of those who post here is helping me feel not so alone. There's so much good information here and I'm really seeing positive results as I begin to learn how to use the tools.

I think that not only was I grieving my cat when I had my meltdown, I had just talked on an individual basis the day before with the psychologist with whom we'd done couples counseling. And she let me know that my husband definitely has a personality disorder and due to the trauma he experienced as a child, is seriously damaged. So I was also grieving the relationship I thought I had and coming to terms with loving a partner who is mentally ill. Being here, I realize that so many others have gone through this and have so much to share about the journey to acceptance.

Thank you again for sharing your wisdom.

[jedimaster]

I'm beginning to wonder if a pwBPD even can lie in the sense that other people lie; that is, they know it is "A" but they deliberately say "B".  Whatever they say becomes their truth, and from the moment they say it there is no other truth, not even in the face of physical evidence or other facts.  Therefore they have no normal concept of lying.  In their world lies are things other people tell when they dispute the BPD's version of reality. 

From that perspective, you are not allowing a lie to stand by not correcting it.  You are simply refusing to engage the pwBPD in a debate over the nature of reality.  It's easy to expound this in a post; it's much harder for me to put into practice.  I am working on allowing my uBPDw to express an opinion, no matter how outrageous, and acknowledging her statement without agreeing with it.  When I say "I understand," to myself I am saying "I understand that what you just said is what you think but in no way do I believe it."  And as GK said, sometimes kindness is more important than factual accuracy.

I'm finding if you've ever had any kind of study in philosophy, dealing with BPD will strain everything you know to the limit and beyond.  BPD takes moral relativism to a level I'm not sure most philosophers ever imagined.

[Mie]

Why indeed would he say 'you've had been saying it for a month'? Maybe he's seeking attention. You are paying too much attention to the cat now instead of him, and he has to make it look ridiculous?

I still haven't learned to cope with lying, every time it first puzzles and then infuriates me. What I have learned is to just be calm, and say 'I don't think so' if anything. In the beginning I said (when realised he is lying) 'don't lie to me' and that was of course a big trigger and he started to rage about how I am accusing him for lying even though I was the biggest liar of all myself and he has to put up with my lies every f... .day... .

(By the way he is obsessed by 'honesty', considers himself 'straight and honest' and if anyone is not like that they are liars and do not deserve to be his friends. Honest = someone who agrees with him. He tells me I am the most unpleasant-looking woman he has seen in his life = just being honest!)

My partner may do and not tell about things which he knows I wouldn't like, and when I catch him he would deny - which is lying. (Also he may say 'so what?' which is infuriating as well but at does not lead to immediate row). But saying things that come 'directly from his imagination' - yes they are not true, but are they technically lies? 

[jedimaster]

But saying things that come 'directly from his imagination' - yes they are not true, but are they technically lies? 

That's what I'm saying.  I'm trying to remember that in their minds, they really are as honest as they claim to be.  They're not "lying," they're creating reality in their mind, as a way of trying to impose some order on their inner chaos.  So "lying" equals disputing their reality.  You may as well be telling them the sun rises in the west and the sky is purple. 

Apparently according to my spouse, I have damaged the "trust" in our relationship by my constantly correcting her.  So I'm working on taking a new tack; learning to acknowledge the existence of her reality without agreeing with it.  If she tells me I need to do something crazy I'm trying not to make an issue of it but quietly just do what actually needs to be done.  Example--my son pays his own car expenses, but she is adamant that we should pay them (he's 20, lives at home w/no rent, works, and goes to college).  So I'm taking his car to have a tire replaced, paying for it, and he's repaying me without involving her.  Stupid way to live but we're all doing what has to be done.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm beginning to wonder if a pwBPD even can lie in the sense that other people lie; that is, they know it is "A" but they deliberately say "B".

I won't go so far as to say that a pwBPD can't tell a deliberate and self-aware untruth like that. However, I don't think that is what they normally or usually do. Here is my guess on what Cat Familiar's H was doing:

He doesn't have the emotional capacity to feel the pain of the cat dying. By convincing himself that the cat isn't actually dying today, he can avoid this feeling this pain. If he acknowledged that you didn't say anything about the cat dying a month ago, he would be stuck back at facing the pain of losing a pet, and he doesn't want to do that. Now he can be in a fight with you over what you said or didn't say a month ago. For him, being mad and blaming you is still easier than feeling the pain over loss of the cat.

I say this like it is a pre-meditated plan on his part. First off, I'm speculating. Second, if I am right, I don't believe he has an ounce of self-awareness of this. He's doing it all without realizing he's doing it.

And once he's done all this, his "lies" don't feel like lies to him. He isn't tell you something he knows to be untrue.

[jedimaster]

I guess I should differentiate between kinds of lies.  My wife is certainly capable of premeditated lying and she is proud of how good she can be at it.  But those are rare compared to the constant re-creation of reality a normal person would call "lying." 

It's funny how they can mix the two. My wife is convinced that her mother will suffer anxiety if she knows ahead of time about things like this surgery.  So she refused to tell her.  I had to sneak her crutches into the car and then she deliberately told her mother that I was taking her to a doctor's appointment.  When we returned 8 hours later, she announced that I had taken her for lab work and the doctor "suddenly" had an opening and offered to do the surgery that day.      So she told multiple deliberate, knowing lies (dr. appt, sudden surgery) to cover for the alternate reality lie (mother's anxiety).  I wonder how much more mental and physical energy she would have if she didn't have to devote so much of it to creating and managing her fantasy world.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty, I think you're right--that he was in denial about the cat dying and that he didn't want to experience the emotional pain, so he chose to frame it in a way that made me look like "the boy who cried wolf" and that way he could believe it wasn't really happening.

When he finally did ask me about the cat two days later, he said, "You should have told me he was dying." Fortunately I had found these boards in the meantime and I kept my mouth shut--not what I would have done previously!

You're right that kindness is more important than being right. What I'm struggling with is having built up so much resentment over his extreme emotionality and his acting out towards me that lots of times I just feel numb, if not short-tempered within. I'm a master at appearing calm after a lifetime of practice from being around highly emotional and unstable people and I certainly don't feel it's appropriate to dump my hostility on others, so I don't. But these pwBPD pick up on the tiniest cues and notice anger, often in my husband's case even when it isn't present.

For example, last night we were watching TV and there was a very interesting story on MI6, the British intelligence agency. My husband starts talking about something trivial and I responded briefly, because it's very difficult for me to split my brain auditorily and pay attention to two things at once. Because my reply was brief, he accused me of being angry, which I wasn't at all, just focused on listening to the story. Then I started to feel some genuine irritation because I was being painted as angry.

I guess my reserves of patience are rather depleted--and I'm generally an extremely patient person.

But to get back to the topic of lying--I think jedimaster has a good point that pwBPD have difficulty discerning what a lie is, as compared with normals.

I'm beginning to wonder if a pwBPD even can lie in the sense that other people lie; that is, they know it is "A" but they deliberately say "B".  Whatever they say becomes their truth, and from the moment they say it there is no other truth, not even in the face of physical evidence or other facts.  Therefore they have no normal concept of lying.  In their world lies are things other people tell when they dispute the BPD's version of reality.  

My experience with my mother seemed to reflect that statement. She would "make something up" or perhaps just share her version of reality and from that moment staunchly defend "her truth" even when it was shared by no one else--she knew what was right.

And Mie, I think you've mentioned something important that had escaped me--the amount of attention I was paying to my cat was taking time away from him. You bring up another point that I've repeatedly seen with pwBPD--the "you do it too" meme, when they're called out on their behavior. That one is hard to take, especially when it is a matter of degree. My example--I drink a glass or two of wine while my husband drinks a bottle or two. When I've complained about his alcohol intake, he uses the "you do it too" on me. I could easily never drink another glass of wine--ever, but not him.

Fortunately my husband doesn't do premeditated lies (at least I don't think he does)--except an occasional "white lie" to avoid a social event he doesn't want to participate in. I think it's funny because I don't have any problem saying no.

In reading these boards, I often wonder, as I do when I examine my relationship history--why do we stay with these people who are so difficult? Don't we deserve partners who can meet us halfway? Or have we been conditioned to become caretakers? It really sucks to not be able to fully be ourselves and express ourselves honestly and completely. Don't we deserve better? Or is this just a pipe dream?

[Grey Kitty]

I guess my reserves of patience are rather depleted--and I'm generally an extremely patient person.

Indeed. As they say on airplanes, put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others.

 Take good care of yourself. Be gentle. Don't force yourself to interact with your H when you are irritated.

As you recover your center and your normal reserves, you will be able to support him better too.

In reading these boards, I often wonder, as I do when I examine my relationship history--why do we stay with these people who are so difficult? Don't we deserve partners who can meet us halfway? Or have we been conditioned to become caretakers? It really sucks to not be able to fully be ourselves and express ourselves honestly and completely. Don't we deserve better? Or is this just a pipe dream?

I've been spending a lot of time with the my feelings and my history. Thinking about what I did that got me where I am, and what I want to do differently. I'm not blaming myself for being here, and I'm absolutely not blaming myself for things my wife did to me. Let me offer you a little guidance in that direction, since you brought it up.

"Why did I stay in this... ." is a great question. Only you can answer it. I've am amazed that I'm just now getting the first layer of a good answer for myself.

":)on't I deserve... ." isn't. The word "deserve" can send you down a rabbit hole, where the world is supposed to be fair, and it isn't your fault that it isn't fair, and since it isn't your fault, you can blame somebody else for your crappy situation instead of making your own choices how to deal with it.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty, you're right about the "deserve" concept sending one down the rabbit hole. Life is not fair.

To count my blessings, my life is for the most part, absolutely wonderful. I think coming to awareness that many of the significant people in my life were pwBPD, I've been in a bit of shock, realizing how I've had to accommodate other's mental illnesses for so long and wondering who I'd be if I hadn't spent so much time caretaking--another rabbit hole.

To answer my own question, I guess I tend to gravitate toward the familiar and having had a mother with BPD, I assumed that's what love looked like.

[Cat21]

Cat Familiar, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry for the loss of your dear pet- I know how hard that can be. I that I also agree with Grey Kitty's thoughts on the fact that your husband isnt' capable of feeling the pain of loss. I also wanted to tell you that I've read things in your responses that are so similar to my own, including the drinking a glass vs. drinking a bottle of wine.

[Cat Familiar]

Thank you Cat 21--undoubtedly you're a fellow cat lover. They bring so much joy and love into my life. It's nice to have animal friends when one's human companion can be so difficult.

Finding these boards has been a blessing. Having had a mother with BPD and then an ex-husband with BPD, I thought I had dodged a bullet this time with my husband since he's high-functioning. In the 10 years we've been together, the behavioral problems I've experienced with him were certainly odd at times, but nowhere near as severe as what I'm accustomed to.

But some of the issues seemed intractable and talking about it resolved nothing; I was accused of "always criticizing" him, when from my perspective, I was trying to understand and solve problems. I felt so stuck that I insisted on couples counseling, which we did for a year and ultimately did little to change things, but it did help our communication somewhat.

As I've mentioned in many posts, this summer he felt uncomfortable enough with some of his family issues that he was motivated enough to do the Hoffman Process, which is an intensive 7 day group psychotherapy residential clinic. I definitely see some improvement in his behavior and more ability and willingness to communicate. I'm sure they didn't let him off the hook with his strategy of clamming up and saying, "I'll think about that," thereby ending the communication. And he hasn't tried that one lately with me--thank goodness.

When I saw improvement, it gave me some hope, but I realized that I had become so bitter and frustrated--but I'm someone with a very pleasant outward demeanor, so only in conversations with friends who are dealing with alcoholic spouses have I shared some of my resentments and problems. I feel fortunate to have a couple of great friends with whom I can be totally open and we laugh and can say the rudest things about our spouses, knowing that we're on similar paths and by venting, we can be a lot more patient at home.

So I started seeing our couples counselor individually. Fortunately she is a psychologist (I selected her because I needed someone very experienced who could deal with addictive behavior) and she understands personality disorders. No explanation of him was necessary because she has seen most of his behaviors that are so troublesome already when we did our couples counseling--so now she's helping me feel more compassionate and teaching me behavioral management strategies, which is a perfect complement for this board.

I think Mie quoted someone here saying that having a BPD spouse is like "having an exotic pet." I love that because I have a variety of animals: horses, cats, goats, sheep and I have to do a lot of training in order to get them to be "good citizens" and respect me and my boundaries--and in some cases do tricks!

So I'm finding that my husband and I get along much better now that I consider him mentally ill and treat him accordingly. We actually are having fun again. I love the tools I've found here. The two strategies I'm trying are avoiding JADEing and using SET. There's lots more for me to learn here, but I'm trying to incorporate things a little at a time until they become automatic.

Thanks to everyone here--it's a wonderful community.

[maxen]

i had this happen in my marriage often enough. please don't anyone react the way i did: with increasing exasperation. pwBPD (or at least my wife) fear judgement, and if they think, however wrongly, that their partners will disapprove of an action, they will lie, even about things that are easily detectable and/or minor.

my thinking: "she was dishonest with me. why? i've asked her always to be honest. this feels like a message is being sent, but i know she won't come across if i ask her what it is, and that leaves me frustrated."

her thinking: "i can't be honest with him, he'll disapprove. but i want to do X. so i'll do it and lie."

"disapproval" here means "anything short of full and unconditional support for everything."

otoh i have opinions about things. otoh i didn't have the skills at validation i would have learned here. a bad mix.

The two strategies I'm trying are avoiding JADEing and using SET.

excellent. i hope it works!

[jedimaster]

"disapproval" here means "anything short of full and unconditional support for everything."

Actually I think to them "disapproval" means anything they want it to mean.  If my wife decides I'm not being/haven't been supportive of something, nothing dissuades her.  I have given full and unconditional support any number of times.  I'd gauge the success rate at maybe 40/60.  Sometimes she has actually been very genuine in her appreciation and acknowledgment of my support, but most often it's never enough, or in BPD-speak, none at all.  99%=zero in BPD math.

[Cat Familiar]

Jedimaster, I hear you. In my husband's BPD speak (like your term), I can thank him ten times in the course of a day for something he's done, then I will hear him say, "you don't appreciate anything I do." It's absolutely maddening.

[Mie]

I can thank him ten times in the course of a day for something he's done, then I will hear him say, "you don't appreciate anything I do." It's absolutely maddening.

Haha... .nothing to laugh about really, but I know too well what you mean! Look at the first comic strip in my blog www.goodmorningotyotoo.blogspot.com

[Cat Familiar]

Mie, I love your comics--you really capture the dynamics.