Why i need to be done, all made clear in a "coffee date."

[Elpis]

Haven't been here lately.

I put myself in a big time out back in mid February from my uBPDh who has kept ramping up the craziness. Since then he has totally flipped my daughter and her family who live on another continent to his "side," which is weird because there shouldn't even be sides, right? He's been in counseling since mid February, he's taken Anger Management classes. He's been pushing for marriage counseling, but he hasn't changed how he treats me.

So I decided to have a coffee date with him so I could tell him why I left and why I don't think marriage counseling is needed.

I listened to him ramble on about his job for a while, he always does that because his life has always been harder than anyone else's. I finally got him to stop and listen, and I told him that my leaving wasn't just about the night that I left when he was drunk and on pain pills and got physically threatening, it was about all the years that he knew I had childhood trauma and when he got mad he would just push and push and push me verbally till i'd flip back into that ptsd response. And that over the earlier years I thought he must not be doing that on purpose, but that as I started learning what was going on and telling him and he kept doing it I realized it had to be done purposefully.

His response? That sometimes I was already in that place of childhood trauma and that frustrated him and that's WHY he would do those things.

OH! It's MY fault! of course, why didn't you just say so?

Oh wait--that's what you've ALWAYS said--that it's my fault.

He went on to smoothly tell me how I talked about him behind his back to our children and that he doesn't do that (BAHAHAHAHA!) and that the professionals say he does not have BPD. I asked who told you that you might? He said he'd read it in my private journal. Didn't act like there was anything weird about that, nothing wrong with reading your wife's private things. He kept on pouring his quiet little words of how I am an awful person who never gave any thought to how hard his life has been. I have to say that since he's taken Anger Management he does talk more quietly when he says all the mean sh!te. He's more subtle. He's even more sure of himself, I think. He's even more resistant to taking any responsibility.

I can never live with that again.

We only spent an hour or maybe an hour and fifteen minutes, but I felt the FOG starting to descend, and I felt myself starting to drift off from being present. By the time I got into the car I realized I was shaking all over and starting to cry and I called my T and left a message saying "I listened to him too long!" How pathetic am I? But what I said to her was true, I can't be around him for even an hour.

I texted a friend who was great to remind me that he's just a mean person who knows how to push my buttons, and that helped, I was feeling so weak. Why was I so weak? But that's the nature of the abused and the abuser. Some abusers can be very charming but their words are poison. And some abusers have BPD or something similar.

What a crazy "learning experience." At least now I know that what is broken is nothing I can fix. If I can only work on me there's no chance of me getting him to take responsibility, that's on him. And clearly he's happy with who he is.

And I need to save myself. And take care of myself. That was the other big lesson--that I have done a terrible job of taking care of myself and that hurt little child inside me because I have repeatedly put her in the line of fire.

I am not happy about being 61 and starting "over" to an extent. But I cannot be in any situation with just me and him.

Blecch.

[Mutt]

Hi Elpis,

Nice to see you again. That sounds like a terrible coffee date. I'm sorry to say that. 

Don't be hard on yourself

Is there perhaps a small part of you that needed to hear from uBPDh that he hasn't / won't change? I get the impression that maybe this coffee date was one final chance for him. Am I incorrect to assume this?

Reading your post with his blaming,  the snooping around and emotional blackmail is heartbreaking.

I am not happy about being 61 and starting "over" to an extent. But I cannot be in any situation with just me and him.

I'm sorry it came to this. I also agree. I think you have too much to offer.

[vortex of confusion]

Sending you a great big hug! 

I don't really have anything to add. Just wanted to offer some support.

[Elpis]

Thanks you two--

Mutt, I think you're probably right, even though my original thought was to tell him why I left, underneath that was the chance for him to either make the choice to own up to his part in our broken r/s or to show that nothing has changed. It's so sad, really, seeing that even after 38 years the most important thing to him was to assert his place as the Better Than, the Superior. So sad to see that.

Even the coffee was bad.

Thanks for thinking I have something to offer besides being the target!

Vortex, thank you for the hug and the support. I saw your "cognitive dissonance" post yesterday and thought ain't that the truth of it. I value marriage too (clearly, 38 years later) and yet I can't allow myself to be abused anymore. I've done such a crap job of taking care of myself, and somehow in here I need to heal. And that can't happen when faced with his sneaky-arse going behind my back stuff and bringing up every old thing he can think of and telling me his twist on it that makes it my fault. With him there can't be just a misunderstanding, it had to be that someone purposely set out to do something to him. It's just so exhausting, and it's taken me a week to start feeling myself again.

It's a crazy life.

I was just thinking the word "insidious" so I looked it up. It's bang on--"causing harm in a way that is gradual or not easily noticed." I feel like the frog in the kettle, coming to a boil so slowly that I didn't even notice. Then one day the eyes are opened and I see I was nearly dead.

i'm embarrassed that I still deal with childhood trauma. I know it wasn't my fault to start with, but if I wasn't so oversensitive... .and then to know that I let my h repeatedly reinjure that trauma because he didn't really value me in the same way I did him, just wow.

"You were no angel," he said spitefully to me. Like I thought I was perfect? He still does a r/s like he's in 6th grade. Sad.

[Mutt]

I agree it's sad when your partner has to assert a one-up position. That same assertion is self destructive? I think it's about being equals. Bad coffee, bad conversation, perhaps a sign. It's sad that your H can't see what's slipping through his fingers (38 year marriage) because of the importance of having to be right and at the expense of invalidating your thoughts and needs.

It's his own undoing. Did he not have a chance to help himself in 38 years? He's heading into divorce, that should be a wake-up sign. I'm sorry.

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, thank you for the hug and the support. I saw your "cognitive dissonance" post yesterday and thought ain't that the truth of it. I value marriage too (clearly, 38 years later) and yet I can't allow myself to be abused anymore.

The hardest part for me was admitting that it was abuse. I always discounted it as "but he didn't mean to" because that is the response that I get when I have tried to bring things up with him.

I've done such a crap job of taking care of myself, and somehow in here I need to heal. And that can't happen when faced with his sneaky-arse going behind my back stuff and bringing up every old thing he can think of and telling me his twist on it that makes it my fault. With him there can't be just a misunderstanding, it had to be that someone purposely set out to do something to him. It's just so exhausting, and it's taken me a week to start feeling myself again.

I can really relate to the part about people doing things to him deliberately. He says that I do things to deliberately hurt him. I won't lie, I haven't been an angel. However, if I try to bring something up with him, he always says that it is unintentional. The latest incident was over something he posted on social media. It was one of those annoying memes and it had a picture of a Barbie doll in a drawer and the caption read, "When you are too old for elf on shelf there is ___ in a drawer." Given the nature of some of our problems and the fact that I have said that he has made me feel like a ___ on more than one occasion, I thought he did it deliberately as a dig at me. He swears up and down that he didn't even think. He thought it was funny so he posted it. There was no ill intent on his part. That led to a discussion about how I am always doing stuff to deliberately hurt him. I admitted that yes, I have done that in the past. I tried to point out/ask about him doing things deliberately. He initially said that he never does anything to deliberately hurt me or anyone else. I pushed the issue and he finally said that he might have done it a few times but the implication was still that I am the one that does that stuff NOT him. Like you say, it's a crazy life!

I was just thinking the word "insidious" so I looked it up. It's bang on--"causing harm in a way that is gradual or not easily noticed." I feel like the frog in the kettle, coming to a boil so slowly that I didn't even notice. Then one day the eyes are opened and I see I was nearly dead.

After 38 years, I can only imagine how rough it has been.

"You were no angel," he said spitefully to me. Like I thought I was perfect? He still does a r/s like he's in 6th grade. Sad.

That drives me crazy because I will admit my failings and then my admissions are used against me. If I try to bring up his failings, I get excuses, deflection, or out right defensiveness.

[Elpis]

Again, thanks for your thoughtful and supportive responses!

Mutt,

You have the gift of succinctness, which I never will.

It is indeed "his own undoing" as you said. It is too bad that it's so important to him to be "right" and "better" that he's losing me. And it is most definitely his loss. And invalidate, invalidate! That's a favorite hobby of his. At least now I can see it like words over his head when it's happening--as long as I don't spend too long listening and let the FOG roll in. I'm sad that I took so long to learn to care about myself and kept putting myself in harm's way. Such an uncomfortable realization! But I don't regret our kids or the good times, it's just too bad that he had to become so thoroughly about him. You'd think my leaving would be a wake up call, but that's a part of the disorder, he can't see me, not really. He's "protected" himself to the point of not having a marriage.

Vortex,

Same thing exactly here! I couldn't call it abuse for a couple of reasons. One, I couldn't believe that someone who is supposed to love me would purposely hurt me, and two, I was never gonna let that happen after growing up in an abusive home. So what did it say about me if i allowed abuse? I gave him grace and gave him grace, and then i had to start waking up and realizing that i had shut down my self-awareness in order to "get along," and that if i told him repeatedly how much his actions and words were hurting me and he kept doing the same things over and over... .well, he knew what he was doing. Horrible awakening.

From the sound of what you say, Vortex, i wonder if you aren't doing exactly what i was doing--engaging in too long of "discussions" with him? He'll twist things, he'll bring on the FOG, and he doesn't even hear what you're saying (other than like you said as something to use against you.) It's not worth the pain. These  things have all been said ad nauseum (at least they were in our house) and there's NO POINT. It just causes you more pain than you're already dealing with. It's another horrible awakening... .BUT--those awakenings are progress for us!

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex,

Same thing exactly here! I couldn't call it abuse for a couple of reasons. One, I couldn't believe that someone who is supposed to love me would purposely hurt me, and two, I was never gonna let that happen after growing up in an abusive home. So what did it say about me if i allowed abuse? I gave him grace and gave him grace, and then i had to start waking up and realizing that i had shut down my self-awareness in order to "get along," and that if i told him repeatedly how much his actions and words were hurting me and he kept doing the same things over and over... .well, he knew what he was doing. Horrible awakening.

Oh my! That hits really close to what I have been doing.

From the sound of what you say, Vortex, i wonder if you aren't doing exactly what i was doing--engaging in too long of "discussions" with him? He'll twist things, he'll bring on the FOG, and he doesn't even hear what you're saying (other than like you said as something to use against you.) It's not worth the pain. These  things have all been said ad nauseum (at least they were in our house) and there's NO POINT. It just causes you more pain than you're already dealing with. It's another horrible awakening... .BUT--those awakenings are progress for us!

UGH! You are so very right. I don't know why I continue to engage with him. It is a habit that I need to break. It is like I have this horrible disconnect in my brain. If I am no here and am typing stuff out, it is all so perfectly clear. When I get with him and we start talking, everything becomes one big jumble and I walk away wondering why I did it once again.

[Turkish]

Glad to see you back! I'm so sorry it's under Leaving circumstances though. It sounds like you're in a stronger place, though, to see him as he really is, and more importantly to see yourself for who you really are.

It sucks big time to be in a situation where there is some alienation with some of your kids. We think that it's more of a worry with minor children, but that obviously isn't the case. Not that I'm excusing him, but he fooled you for almost 4 decades, no? I can't really grasp how he's successfully triangulated himself into being the victim, but they weren't married to him. The truth is what you lived and where you are now.

[Mutt]

Mutt, I think you're probably right, even though my original thought was to tell him why I left, underneath that was the chance for him to either make the choice to own up to his part in our broken r/s or to show that nothing has changed. It's so sad, really, seeing that even after 38 years the most important thing to him was to assert his place as the Better Than, the Superior. So sad to see that.

If there's something that irks me in real life it's beating around the bush. Maybe I'm getting impatient as I get older .

That said Elpis, you gave him one last chance that he didn't really deserve and maybe you needed to hear him one last time.

Treat divorce like a business transaction. My advice, emotionally detach and let your L take care of him. I'm sorry it came to this. You have to look after YOU and not listen to his waifishness. Divorce is hard and my   goes out to you.

Detach and your perspective will change.

[SickofMe]

i'm embarrassed that I still deal with childhood trauma. I know it wasn't my fault to start with, but if I wasn't so oversensitive.

Aw, this sure jumped out at me and made me want to give you a huge  .

Do you work with a therapist?

I wish nobody had ever heard the word "oversensitive," especially as a child.  What a set-up for abuse as an adult.  Sensitivity is a beautiful gift but it is also a burden in so many ways.

I hope you can find a way to develop and appreciate your sensitivity and reject that inner-critic who seems so intent on making you take the blame for your temperament and gifts!  That is so difficult when you are yoked with someone who uses it against you.   

[Kwamina]

Hi DF!

i'm embarrassed that I still deal with childhood trauma. I know it wasn't my fault to start with, but if I wasn't so oversensitive... .and then to know that I let my h repeatedly reinjure that trauma because he didn't really value me in the same way I did him, just wow.

I understand where your feelings are coming from. I was raised by an uBPD mom and am still dealing with a lot of childhood trauma myself. One thing I would ask myself though, is were you really that sensitive? All children are vulnerable and being abused only adds to that feeling of vulnerability. If these childhood trauma's aren't properly addressed we will carry them on into adulthood and often end up in situations in which we are being abused again. It's not so much that this is what adults that were abused as children really want, but more like this is what they know and as a result of the way they were raised they didn't get the chance to develop more healthy ways of dealing and interacting with people. This makes you vulnerable even as an adult and potentially sets you up for further drama. It's true that we also play a role in everything ourselves of course, but maybe another way of looking at things is that the reason you "repeatedly let your husband re-injure that trauma", was because you were programmed to let yourself be treated that way as a child. Fortunately it is still possible to 'reprogram' yourself, even after 38 years of marriage

I couldn't call it abuse for a couple of reasons. One, I couldn't believe that someone who is supposed to love me would purposely hurt me, and two, I was never gonna let that happen after growing up in an abusive home. So what did it say about me if i allowed abuse? I gave him grace and gave him grace, and then i had to start waking up and realizing that i had shut down my self-awareness in order to "get along,"

This is an important insight Sounds like you developed a certain coping mechanism to deal with the reality you found unacceptable. You told yourself that you were never gonna let the abuse happen to you again so that's why you couldn't accept the reality that what your husband was doing, was really abuse. It's good that you realize this now because we can't change anything if we don't first accept the reality of how things really are but instead deny that reality.

[Elpis]

UGH! You are so very right. I don't know why I continue to engage with him. It is a habit that I need to break. It is like I have this horrible disconnect in my brain. If I am no here and am typing stuff out, it is all so perfectly clear. When I get with him and we start talking, everything becomes one big jumble and I walk away wondering why I did it once again.

It's such an easy pattern to fall into! We of course want to defend ourselves! We want to tell them this is what I meant, this is what you said, because they're feeding us their version of reality and they see it from such a different viewpoint than we do.

It's a practice thing, the practice of listening and discerning from a stepped-back position. I was able to do this at coffee with my h but I let it go on too long and then their FOG has settled over us! Listen to his words--have you heard them a million times before? Start naming them--invalidation, etc. Watch. But once you've said what you needed to say you need to go somewhere else and involve yourself where he can't follow and keep talking. That was always my problem--I didn't get far enough away and he'd follow and keep badgering.

[Elpis]

Glad to see you back! I'm so sorry it's under Leaving circumstances though. It sounds like you're in a stronger place, though, to see him as he really is, and more importantly to see yourself for who you really are.

It sucks big time to be in a situation where there is some alienation with some of your kids. We think that it's more of a worry with minor children, but that obviously isn't the case. Not that I'm excusing him, but he fooled you for almost 4 decades, no? I can't really grasp how he's successfully triangulated himself into being the victim, but they weren't married to him. The truth is what you lived and where you are now.

Thanks Turkish! I feel in a stronger place, but I have to watch myself, I still really feel for him and I have to work on that detaching thing for my own sake. It's hard. And he's very charming, and very believable. He tells a great story, one where he isn't at fault for anything--it's been his terrible circumstances, it's been my mental health, all things he of course could never have chosen a better response to!

If you would have seen one set of neighbors when I ran into them at the house it would all become clear. I know they've heard him shouting his brains out at me in the house, on the driveway, in the backyard, and he even was somewhat threatening with the husband of this couple. Well, i was at the house and they were outside and they told me how they'd spent some time "catching up" with my h when they were having the fence put up. i was thinking of all the unfinished stuff in our house and the junk in our yard, and then i looked at their faces and realized they were showing faces of extreme compassion for him and all his circumstances. OH MY GOSH! He's amazing.

And thank you for pointing out what a SLOW LEARNER i am! Seriously, my son and i are going to get tattoos and mine is going to be of a turtle in honor of how freaking slow i am to catch a clue.

Mutt, i have to admit to being one of those "hope springs eternal" sorta folks. And i do think i needed to see if he had any kindness for me. My biggest insight from that was twofold--that i have done a terrible job of keeping myself emotionally safe, and that somebody who makes me feel like that doesn't deserve to be around me! I have to work on detaching.

SickOfMe,

Thank you so much for the huge hug and your kindness. The adults in my house were no better at dealing with their emotions than i was, so i had to figure out best i could how to deal. Mostly i dealt by acting like everything was great and being a happy girl. Or hiding. And i seem to be made mainly of feelings, I've been very much an emotional sponge and am trying to learn to change that and get more space between other's feelings and me and i'm learning slowly. (again, the turtle tattoo is coming!) There was one point where i told my therapist (yes, I've been seeing her for 13 years now... .again with the tattoo) "There's nothing wrong with being sensitive! It's a good thing!" and i know it is, but rather like you said "it's a gift and a curse." It's the modulating of it that needs to be learned. But yeh, my uBPDh used it against me constantly.

Hi Kwamina!

Well, i guess I've always been sensitive--partly because of being brought up worrying about what every facial expression on my mother meant, i was the youngest and treated quite differently (pretty hands off really, like they were too tired to be bothered) and I've always needed physical affection like being hugged. My grandma was the only person who provided that affection. And vulnerable, heck yes that one sure hits home--my T tells me that my little girl always thinks i'm going to abandon her. That was a surprise to me, but really hit home to me after talking to my h at the ill-fated ill-tasting coffee date--i saw CLEARLY my poor little girl hiding in that closet hoping to wait out the hostility, and here i am an adult and I've let her wait in that closet over and over... .and it has to stop. Somebody has to finally be there for that poor dear and it has to be me, i'm the only one who can do the job!

I think I've hoped for others to take care of me. Waited for others to take care of me. Nobody was coming. And that allowed me to feel like a victim, as much as my stomach turns at the term. But if you're waiting for someone else to do something when you are fully capable of doing it yourself, where else does that leave you? 

Time to reprogram indeed!

And i must never shut down my self-awareness again. There were       years past when i started questioning, "is this abusive?" but he always managed to talk me out of that because he's persuasive and i had so much self-doubt.

If i live through all this mess i think bpdfamily should add a turtle emoticon in honor of all the slow learners like me.

***

As i was re-reading this i saw how my sensitivity (over or otherwise!) gets me in trouble--because of it i have always had glimpses of the pain behind the awful actions of these people in my life like my mother and my husband (yup, i chose the familiar!) and then my heart hurts for them. That leads me to put up with too much because i want to help them "get better" but i can't. They have to choose that, just like i have to choose to rescue my little girl after all these years. It's that helper/fixer thing.

And when i saw how i'd written about my need for affection i had the flash of all the years where my h has withheld physical affection, even something as small as playing with my hair. And he would not have s*x for something like the last 4 years. He would say it was about him, but dang do i feel like I've been punished somehow for I don't know what.

Interesting.