I... am... back

[breathelater]

I was here three years ago... .actually, was on the Leaving Board... .then I came to the Staying Board.  Lost my password and username... I am now using a brand new name, as it is actually very appropriate because the situation has turned 180 degrees back and then more.

I need advice please.  I will give you only the bullet points because, for one, I am tired of hearing myself think and two, there is not enough space here for all that I have experienced.

Met my now husband 9 and half years ago... .tumultuous relationship as you may imagine, break-ups, betrayals, abandomments, etc... .married one year ago.  Deceased Father was BiPolar 1, Deceased mother perceived to be neglectful and abusive; divorced parents since early childhood.  Two brother, one diagnosed as BPD and other appears stable.  My husband has two children.  One 21 year old boy recently admitted to the hospital for panic attacks and currently being evaluated.  One 17 year old girl, high achiever, history of cutting and medicated a few years ago and perceived to be BPD by a counselor (not sure if full diagnosis was made).  We are a couple in our 50's. 

For three years now, I have spoken to him about his possible BPD. At times, I forgot about it... .then I thought and hoped that it was Bipolar 2.  About six months ago, he was able to read about BPD and came to me in shock and agreement.  He decided to seek help.  No one in our area would take him... .BPD therapists are far and few (as you may know). 

Very recently, a series of traumatic events between us occurred ... .and I was angry, devastated and depleted... .and decided to email him an article that is a clear point of view of what it is like to be a victim of BPD.  There is quite a controversy over this article, but for whatever it matters, it makes me feel good when I read it... .it validates my feelings when he pounces on me. I have taken the soft approach, used the tools and blew up.  I sent this article to him a few days ago ... .and he is 100 percent in the belief that he is borderline... .he made an appt with a therapist who will take him and has the first appt next Tuesday (whewph).

The therapist asked him to send him the article that convinced him of BPD, and he did.  Now, this is where my concern lies... .I am concerned that the article is so aggressive that a therapist may believe that I am beating him over the head with BPD... .and may convey that to him ... .at which point, game is over and he is back with a vengeance.

I am at a loss on what to do if this occurs... .we are at the very precipice of seeing a new road...    

Any advice?

 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

No, that author is not very respected around here. I did scan over the article, and found it to have a very harsh, judgmental, venting tone to it. That and TL:)R... .

Still, It is OK for you to blow a few things up and make some waves yourself, you know.

Yes, you dropped a bit of a bomb.

He has dropped plenty, I'm sure.

It is up to him to make his own choices whether to get therapy, what to do in it.

Try not to drop any more bombs, and let him make his own choices.

[breathelater]

Yes... .I certainly dropped a bomb.  Does the end really justify the means when it pertains to BPD?   I don't know... .I only know that I am suffering badly with a overwhelming fear that he will leave... .yes... .and no... .I am not BPD. 

The truth of the matter is that I am suffering from being left to rot (financially and emotionally) by this man several times before we were married.  The last event thru ME over the edge.  He has teamed up with his brother to "put me in my place".  I know it sounds like paranoia, but these two are such a perfect BPD team that it makes me question all that I stand for. 

When I sent this to him, it was out of anger and frustration... .to admittedly shake him up.  The truth of the matter is that this article would have been hailed by the hundreds of women that have come across my brother in law... .more so than my husband.  What I didn't expect is a 100% admission from my husband that "85% of this article describes himself".  It was a double edged sword to hear this, as I didn't expect it, and gave me even deeper distrust as to who " are you really"?

I don't know if I can live in a world of "make-believe" .  It has been one of the toughest weeks I've had so far

[formflier]

 

I'm with Grey... .that article is a bit harsh... .on the other hand... .I could see in some r/s (relationships) that it could be right on the money.

Generally speaking I would focus on the softer approach... .that way when you do drop a bomb... it is more effective.

In other words... if someone yells all the time... you don't pay attention... .it's normal. 

If you don't yell all the time... and you do yell... .people will at least look up... .

What do you think?


What "trait" or behavior seems to be bothering you the most at the moment in your r/s.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes... .I certainly dropped a bomb.  :)oes the end really justify the means when it pertains to BPD?   I don't know... .I only know that I am suffering badly with a overwhelming fear that he will leave... .yes... .and no... .I am not BPD.  

Ends justify the means? Don't go there. As a good friend of mine says, "There's no cheese at the end of that maze."

Try to be gentle with yourself. You are hurting. You are at the end of your rope. You lashed out.

You know it wasn't the best thing to do. You will try to do better things. As I said, be gentle with yourself over it. Look at it this way.

  The world didn't end.

  Your marriage hasn't ended either.

  Your H was (briefly) scared into thinking about himself by this article.

  Your H made a therapy appointment.

Whatever happens, the world won't end   Most likely he won't leave you over this. The other two 'good' results may be short-lived.

The chances of your H taking a direct path through therapy and healing with no setbacks are pretty slim. He may not even make it back to a second appointment, and may start yelling at you for these unfair accusations.

Let it play out how it will. And keep working on the tools yourself. If you are feeling that frustrated, hurt, and ready to explode, there's a BIG hint for you:

You're putting up with crap from him that isn't sitting well with you, and stuffing your real feelings too much.

The tool to fix that is boundary enforcement.

Do you know what behaviors of his pushed you to this point?

We can help you on setting and enforcing good boundaries here.

[breathelater]

A combination of two things... .the secrecy and the team (brother & husband) bashing I've gotten.

The secrecy:  I caught him thru his phone contacting his ex... .I accepted but told him if he continued, it would needed to stop. Contacted another woman he knows on fb and told her that he was "marginally happy" in his marriage. He is also a cocaine user; had a big problem years ago, caught him twice since we've been married tried to score drugs.  This past week, I checked his phone and he was making contact with some person he met on the train.  I also saw a text to his brother supporting him in his disregard for me.

Team tag bashing:  For years now, his brother has been verbally bashing me because of a perceived notion that I am "in his romantic business".  Earlier this year, we set him up on a date with a woman I know.  This woman became an immediate victim of my brother n law and was constantly asking me for detailed info about him; I finally had to tell her that I cannot speak with her again.  She then had a common friend asking me the same.  Long story short, she emails me an apology that was not sincere in the least.  I told her that I didn't want anything to do with her but that I'd be polite at my husband's or brother n law's request.  Well... .that was a mistake.  We had a Halloween party and invited my brother in law... .he tells me that he's bringing her ( she showed him my email).  I say no to my brother in law... .he replied that he won't come... I wound up agreeing that he can bring her. My husband begs me repeatedly to let her come and be nice ... and I give in. She comes to the party with my brother in law and tells a common friend how the two had a great laugh on the planned coup d'etat.  My husband gets angry at his brother. For Thanksgiving, his brother declines the invitation to our home and spends it with her (She is one of many many women he's currently dating).  I see on a text that his brother says that he is not comfortable at our house because of me... .and my husband replies " I understand". His brother also defriended me on FB... .because of a light hearted remark I made on a pic with a women... .in the meanwhile many others were joking on what a Player he is and he at those comments.

Now... .given the cluster BPD of these two... .I feel defenseless in my own home.  

To sum, he has locked his phone and will not allow me to see it... .stating that I have abused my privileges... .the boundaries have been set by him ... .not me... .ironic

[formflier]

 

I think this is an example of what can go wrong with inconsistent boundary enforcement.

While not exactly a boundary... .your stance with this woman has shifted a bunch.  My guess is that if you had stuck with NC... and just let her deal with her own r/s issues... without you... .that things would be much happier.

My phone is locked... .and i don't look in my wife's phone.

Looking can easily turn into an obsession.  Not saying that is going on... .but... .generally better to avoid looking... snooping.

[breathelater]

Oh boy. I am in agreement. The snooping turned into an obsession

The chaos has left me questioning my own reality. The only thing I could trust was that phone   

And yes, I should've said no that woman and kept my boundary. I can see how easily I am perceived of being weak minded by the two in question.

I need some time to recoup from all this. I hope that he can get some answers on his first visit.   Thank you both

[formflier]

 

So... can you catch us up again on the answers or goals here?

Are you talking about answers in therapy?

First visit to therapy?


What is your status with respect to going to a therapist... .or attending MC (marriage counseling)

?

[breathelater]

It's been a hell of a week. As always, this support group has brought me into a better focus,  I guess that I meant to say that I need time to just reflect and stop reacting.  The therapy visit will bring, hopefully, some insight to him. 

I'm just plain exhausted and my emotions are starting to calm down.

Thank you. And you can bet on it that I'll be reporting back

[breathelater]

Just realized that I didn't answer the MC question or therapy for myself

I am guarded on seeking MC at this point until I know what may be his true issue. I have been to counseling before we got married with him and it was short of a nightmare.  He wanted the therapist to tell us which one of us was right.  It went no where

As well, we need to rule out bipolar.   I know that I need counseling on dealing with all the trauma and will seek an appt soon

[formflier]

 

There are different "kinds" of MC.  I would ask therapists for the one where you try to build empathy between the two.

The "focus" of the therapy is that you understand each others emotions.  There is not right or wrong... .your feelings are.

It is true that being in couples therapy with a pwBPD traits is challenging.  Many on these boards say to avoid that until the partner has made strides on their own.

I disagree... .I think that the more times you can "expose" a pwBPD to the mental health system... .to counseling... .the better.

My only advice is that you go in with eyes wide open... .

[breathelater]

Follow up. My UBPDH has had his first counseling apt today.  He called me at work in a very calm manner to tell me of the points discussed.  He told me that he informed the counselor of his drug addiction, his family history and what has led him to believe that he has BPD.  The counselor told him that he didn’t read the article in full but wanted him to discuss why he identifies with it.  He discussed his brother and the problems we are having with this dynamic and our relationship problems.  I didn’t pry or ask any probing questions (…quite an accomplishment…thank you), I merely asked if he was “ok”.  He is now checking with his medical insurance company to determine if the $1K deductible applies to Mental Health, and if so, his next appointment will need to be scheduled after the 1st of the year, if not, he will schedule an appt later this week. 

Quite an accomplishment in my view.  I am very proud of him for having the courage to confront a very complicated possible condition. 

Now…I need your advice on using the effective tools on something that is an immediate “trigger” for me. Whenever, I am discussing something that is important to me, he many times, walks away from me, turns the TV to a different channel, looks away, etc.  It drives me nuts.  I’ve been known to yell and tell him that it is hurtful, etc; it always leads into an argument, where he tells me that he just wants to relax or that I don’t stick to the facts and he is not interested in listening to BS.  On good days, I stop talking and he behaves like it doesn’t affect him.  Is there anything I can say or do whenever he reacts this way to attain a better outcome?

[formflier]

  Is there anything I can say or do whenever he reacts this way to attain a better outcome?

I get this a lot... .it's frustrating.  I simply stop talking... .sometimes. 

I also will ask her to make a choice... .talk to me or "do" electronics.

Sometimes I try to work through it.

But... .trying to "force him" to do better won't work.  Yelling is bad... .you have to be the emotionally mature person... .have to be... .!

I think a good thing would be to ask him for some uninterrupted/undistracted time to talk time.  If he says yes... .hold him to it... .or point it out that he is wandering away.

If he says no... .go on about your business... it won't get discussed.

Either way... .don't "react"

[Grey Kitty]

Now…I need your advice on using the effective tools on something that is an immediate “trigger” for me. Whenever, I am discussing something that is important to me, he many times, walks away from me, turns the TV to a different channel, looks away, etc.  It drives me nuts.

You cannot make him behave in a certain way. It sucks. You've seen what happens whey you try to push it. (It sucks worse!)

There are two other things you CAN do:

1. Change your attitude about it. Consider that he is probably incapable of discussing this important thing with you in a constructive way. If he didn't go away, he would stick around and turn it into a fight.

So be grateful that he avoids making things even worse.

2. Look at HOW you bring up a topic that is "important to you". In the Lessons, we have a bunch of communication tools that may help you package in a way that gives you a better chance of a good outcome.

Along those lines... .can you give us a detailed description of one recent time where this happened, what you said, and what his reactions were? I find it easier to improve this sort of stuff when looking at specifics than with generalities.

[Cat Familiar]

I get this a lot... .it's frustrating.  I simply stop talking... .sometimes. 

I also will ask her to make a choice... .talk to me or "do" electronics.

It really pi$$es me off when I try to talk with him and he focuses elsewhere--it's so disrespectful. I try to give him my full attention.

It does get his attention when I quit talking.

[formflier]

 

Practice saying this several times... it needs to come out nice and even... .

Can I have your attention for a few minutes?  There is something I care about deeply that I would like to talk to you about...

You can do variations on this... .if it is a tricky subject... .stick to your feelings... .don't invalidate... .make sure he knows this is something that you care about.

Be ready to be blown off... .do not react.  Do not "fight through" the distraction... .wait until you have his attention. 

This is a pattern that has built up over a long time... .don't expect dramatic change to be quick... .but it will happen... .if you are consistent.


Please give a detailed description of an interaction.

[Grey Kitty]

It really pi$$es me off when I try to talk with him and he focuses elsewhere--it's so disrespectful. I try to give him my full attention.

Been on both sides of this. I know I cannot focus on talking to one person while FB chatting with another, or reading my email.   I still try once in a while.    It is soo much easier to see how badly it works when your partner does it to you though!

I've also found that sometimes I'm 'nervous' while listening to my wife and really want to fiddle with something with my hands while I listen. I mean a pencil or a paper clip or clipping off a hangnail. NOT my phone or my computer! NOT something that engages the language part of my brain.

My wife often gets testy about it, and I understand that she feels disrespected and ignored.

In my brain, that isn't what is going on. I once read something on the 'net by somebody who had ADD or Aspbergers, and explained that this sort of thing actually HELPS them concentrate on the person they are listening to. Without this 'tool' or 'crutch' they are more likely to have their mind wander off, get distracted, and lose a paragraph that was spoken to them by thinking about some completely unrelated tangent.

[Cat Familiar]

It really pi$$es me off when I try to talk with him and he focuses elsewhere--it's so disrespectful. I try to give him my full attention.

Been on both sides of this. I know I cannot focus on talking to one person while FB chatting with another, or reading my email.   I still try once in a while.    It is soo much easier to see how badly it works when your partner does it to you though!

I've also found that sometimes I'm 'nervous' while listening to my wife and really want to fiddle with something with my hands while I listen. I mean a pencil or a paper clip or clipping off a hangnail. NOT my phone or my computer! NOT something that engages the language part of my brain.

My wife often gets testy about it, and I understand that she feels disrespected and ignored.

In my brain, that isn't what is going on. I once read something on the 'net by somebody who had ADD or Aspbergers, and explained that this sort of thing actually HELPS them concentrate on the person they are listening to. Without this 'tool' or 'crutch' they are more likely to have their mind wander off, get distracted, and lose a paragraph that was spoken to them by thinking about some completely unrelated tangent.

I totally get the part about needing to fiddle with something to help focus one's attention. For years, I worked in a commercial kitchen with other people making fancy desserts. We'd have the most profound discussions about life, religion, politics, our deep dark secrets, etc., all while totally focused on our work and seldom making eye contact. It was very comfortable and very intimate at the same time. I can still do this while preparing food, but somehow husbands (both former and current) don't believe I'm giving them my full attention unless my eyes are meeting theirs.

[Grey Kitty]

... .totally focused on our work and seldom making eye contact. It was very comfortable and very intimate at the same time. I can still do this while preparing food, but somehow husbands (both former and current) don't believe I'm giving them my full attention unless my eyes are meeting theirs.

Fascinating. It reminded me of something my wife told me. (Context: She's more charismatic and meets people more easily than I do... .I have a history of tagging along behind her as a way to meet new people.)

She observed that I talk to people without making eye contact. For example both of us standing around a campfire, looking at the fire instead of each other, while talking. She thought that I was missing cues like how interested they were in what I was saying, by not looking at their faces, or perhaps they just didn't see me as being interested in them... .with the result was that I didn't make connections with people as well as I could if I changed that.

[formflier]

 

For me... .it depends on subject matter.  For r/s issues... .I like eye contact and no distractions.

Especially if I am talking with the person that I am in a r/s with.

I too like to fiddle with a paperclip while talking or "problem solving"

[Cat Familiar]

... .totally focused on our work and seldom making eye contact. It was very comfortable and very intimate at the same time. I can still do this while preparing food, but somehow husbands (both former and current) don't believe I'm giving them my full attention unless my eyes are meeting theirs.

Fascinating. It reminded me of something my wife told me. (Context: She's more charismatic and meets people more easily than I do... .I have a history of tagging along behind her as a way to meet new people.)

For me... .it depends on subject matter.  For r/s issues... .I like eye contact and no distractions.

Especially if I am talking with the person that I am in a r/s with.

I too like to fiddle with a paperclip while talking or "problem solving"

I am in agreement with you Formflier, about giving full attention and eye contact with no distractions when it's the relationship talk.

However, it's a non-reciprocal thing with my husband, who feels perfectly OK with reading stuff on his iPad when I try to talk with him about r/s stuff, yet is terribly offended if I'm focused on chopping onions when he spews his political opinions.

I've learned to stop and wait until he looks up from the screen and I think he's beginning to get that he needs to be respectful if he wants respect.

[formflier]

 

Once he looks up... .I would recommend... .evenly and politely... .to ask him to put down the computer for a few minutes so you both can focus on the talk.

Don't say just him.

Get him in the habit of asking you as well.

The key here is to positively express your needs... .each of you... .and get rid of assumptions... as much as possible.

[Cat Familiar]

Once he looks up... .I would recommend... .evenly and politely... .to ask him to put down the computer for a few minutes so you both can focus on the talk.

Don't say just him.

Get him in the habit of asking you as well.

The key here is to positively express your needs... .each of you... .and get rid of assumptions... as much as possible.

I like that. Thanks

[breathelater]

He made a second appointment with the therapist!  We have had some very productive conversations in relation to his not yet diagnosed BPD and my very probable codependency issues

Strangely, the more I look into my self; my actions; my reactions and my past,  the easier it becomes to understand him and communicate effectively.

I never imagined that this journey included me and my awareness that I've been a classic codependent

[formflier]

I never imagined that this journey included me and my awareness that I've been a classic codependent

Go easy on yourself here... .

You may not be co... .

You may be a rescuer... .

Just like I encourage people to not focus on diagnosis and labels in their r/s... .and for their partner... .try to stay away from that with you.

Focus on behavior... .

This is good news... I'm glad things seem to be looking up... .and yes... .a lot of the journey is not about them... it's about us...

 

[Grey Kitty]

I never imagined that this journey included me and my awareness that I've been a classic codependent

I'll say that the identity label is something to go gentle on yourself with. (calling yourself a codependent)

Acknowledging your own codependent behavior is great work!

[breathelater]

Thank you both. 

The truth of the matter is that Ive been in therapy before a few times.  Once with my children when I was getting divorce and again when I was attempting to recover from my then BPD fiance (now husband) sudden abandonment.  Both times, the two counselors stated that I may be a codependent.  At that time, I translated it into "not being able to be independent", which I am ... .but not emotionally, I now know.

I picked up the book "Codependent No More" a few weeks ago, and I was shell shocked.  I've been muddling through it still... .it is a very hard read for me... .it forces me to question much of my childhood and I wind up bawling feeling sorry for the little girl I was.  On the positive end, it has encouraged me to place boundaries, say no, and be a little selfish.  I am not financial ready to go into therapy yet... .but I intend to once things are clearer and more financially stable.

[Grey Kitty]

I really appreciated the book "Codependent No More" when I read it. The person who recommended it to me did suggest that I take it with one grain of salt--the author's point of view that all problems have the same solution--go to a 12-step meeting.

I do see value in those meetings, however I don't see a cure-all in them. I know many people who have done them without getting much help, and also many who have found a great deal in them. I never did the meetings myself; my reasons (codependent or not!) don't matter today; I might have got a lot out of them a few years back, but don't feel much need today.

The rest of the book, the part about codependent behavior... .I've got no reservations about that at all! It is great and eye-opening stuff!

[formflier]

I am at a loss on what to do if this occurs... .we are at the very precipice of seeing a new road...  

Any advice?

If this does occur... .just tell your story honestly... .and let the chips fall where they may.

Most therapists will listen to stories several times before making a "decision"... .trust me... .they are used to odd situations... .odd claims... .and that kind of thing.


I'm glad that this situation seems to be working out for you... .many times sending inflammatory articles to a pwBPD... .can have a negative effect.  It's an area to tread in with caution.