Feeling a phenomenal amount of hatred and anger

[waverider]

 We shook hands and the two boundaries have been set. :-)

Sounds good I have the same calling out from the other room issue. soo how are you going to enforce this boundary next time she yells out? What about when you are not there?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Moselle]

Sounds good I have the same calling out from the other room issue. soo how are you going to enforce this boundary next time she yells out? What about when you are not there?

Good question.  The kids have watched me not respond if she calls for me. I suppose that's hard for them to do, with the possibility/probability of emotional punishment when they ignore her.

I've realised it takes time to change a family culture and I try model boundary defense with them.

I've taught the older two: "ACTION, FEEL, LIKE, NEED"

When you do... .ACTION,

I FEEL... .

I would LIKE... .

Or I will NEED to... .

[formflier]

 

First blush:

Kids ignoring Mom is not a good thing.  Kids responding to mom's harsh demands is not a good thing either.

I think this area needs some focus... by you and the kids.

My gut says that the kids should politely comply... .not rush... .but make sure they do what is asked... .and then discuss with you both at a later time... .preferably same day.

You don't want to get in a game of telephone... .get all the players in same room... .later... and hash this out.

Again... this is tricky.  You don't want to teach a teenager to be disobedient... .they can also come across as "lippy" when trying to talk to parents... .

[Grey Kitty]

At this point W was waving her hands and giving me all sorts of faces to stop me talking about it. LOL. But it was too late D13 loved the idea of not being  shouted for and said. Dad thats a great idea.  We shook hands and the two boundaries have been set. :-)

GREAT JOB!

I do feel the obligation to hammer in on one 'little' detail. I find that these details really do matter, and if not to you, perhaps to somebody else reading. Likely you already 'get' my point and I'm reading more (or less) into your language than is there.

Those two things are either rules (for your W to obey) or agreements (that your wife made, even if she was backed into it).

When it comes to protecting your daughter from her, YOU are still responsible for enforcing the boundaries.

Agreement or not, your wife may well 'forget' and try yelling for D13 across the house, or shout at her when a conflict gets her upset. Make sure you are clear about what actions you can and will take under these circumstances!

[formflier]

[  Make sure you are clear about what actions you can and will take under these circumstances!

And... for benefit of those reading... .the reason several of us are really focusing here... .is the difference in a rule, agreement, and boundary.

Enforcing your own boundary is relatively simple... .you get up and walk out (one possible solution).

Once you start involving and coordinating other people... .it gets exponentially more complicated... .  exponentially!

This is why it is needs to be clear in "your own" head first... .we can help work through what if scenarios on here.

Then you work through them with d13.

Then... .eventually you will be tested

[waverider]

In my particular case i have found enacting a boundary first, then after stating it is a boundary and why, worked better than prediscussing it, as that in itself meant she started to "work around it', so when the issue came up it was always a deviation on it in an attempt to circumnavigate it. It also provoked "victim" stance

By demonstrating it first showed I was serious.

It is different for everyone though

[frustrated one]

Moselle, I can really relate to your situation on so many levels. The holidays are difficult much rage is focused on the short comings of my parents by my uBPDw, has called and told them they will not be welcome at holidays.  I've decided to attend her family gathering and with her and D 13 for a while and leave to spend sometime with my parents as well as they would otherwise be alone for the holiday. I'm sure this will cause much angst with her and her family but I'll try not to be bothered by it and make the best of the situation.

Right now I am also trying to focus on how to help my D 13 cope with uBPDw who yells at her more than she talks to he. And consistently tells her she is the child and is not entitled to an opinion. W feels she is just to do what she is told and not question anything. Every time I confront her on the subject it turns into a war.

D who is an only child has resorted to staying in her room instead of dealing with the conflicts. I on the fence about her staying in her room since she is alone. All she seems to do is text her friends. but rarely asks to have anyone over or go out with friends. She has said that she doesn't ask friends over because she's not sure how W will be acting... I've encouraged her to become more active in after school activities in hopes that she will become more outgoing. Teachers tell me she is very social at school so I'm hoping that the conditions at home haven't damaged he to much...

This thread has helped me understand  how others are dealing with similar situations.

[formflier]

Waverider,

Can you give us an example... .?

Any chance you have a situation where you had to take action due to FOO... .?  That might apply to this thread...

[Moselle]

Once you start involving and coordinating other people... .it gets exponentially more complicated... .  exponentially!

This is why it is needs to be clear in "your own" head first... .we can help work through what if scenarios on here.

I've had boundaries for 10 months now, so though simple, I'm still learning how to do it for me.

Add a teenager with BPD traits to a BPD/NPDw, and I agree, it's a toxic soup with exponential complexity.

How is it done?

[formflier]

How is it done?

Very carefully... .

[waverider]

Waverider,

Can you give us an example... .?

Any chance you have a situation where you had to take action due to FOO... .?  That might apply to this thread...

My partner has an obsession with calling her family, especially her mum, seeking validation, sympathy or a hand out. She gets non of these, each time she gets invalidated, has a melt down and I have to pick up the pieces. This can reach a peak when we go away for a few days, it can ruin the entire trip. I deliberately left her charger behind, and as her phone is never fully charged means she had to ration her calls. Did this twice before stating why.

She now accepts that she can't take her charger when we go away as she can't be trusted not to keep calling her mum. She can make all the promises in the world but if the opportunity is there she will do it.

She tells her therapists that her mums keeps calling her and is abusive and bullying. Her phone log shows nearly all the calls as outgoing. She constantly asks mums advice. mum is "Logic Woman", tells her what to do. Not what partner wants to hear, goes into bullied victim mode complaining mum is always trying to control her and telling her what to do. Its almost like watching self harming.

Boundary= I will not have my break away ruined by toxic FOO interactions

Action= Limit the means for this to happen

[Moselle]

How is it done?

Very carefully... .

OK, so a few times now,  I've been caught in the middle of a BPD catfight between my W and my D13.

I realise that I have no idea how to protect the kids from ther mother's behaviour. I never dreamed I would be saying that, but it's true.  

When I talk about behaviours that are not acceptable and even hint that they are by the mother, D13 picks it up immediately and says something like " There you go again - talking about mom"

Is there a way to talk to kids about a BPD spouse that doesn't sound invalidating?

Waverider sorry to hear that your MIL plays such an invasive role in your life. I've noticed that as I detach from our enmeshment, mine communicates with her mother more. It's almost as if her current source of supply is no longer sufficient and she needs to go back to her original attachment for more supply, and the message she hears from MIL is that "There is nothing wrong with you. It is all Moselle"

[waverider]

Waverider sorry to hear that your MIL plays such an invasive role in your life. I've noticed that as I detach from our enmeshment, mine communicates with her mother more. It's almost as if her current source of supply is no longer sufficient and she needs to go back to her original attachment for more supply, and the message she hears from MIL is that "There is nothing wrong with you. It is all Moselle"

What your wife says to her mother will be highly twisted to prompt that. This is the sort of dynamic that leads to triangulation. Which is very difficult to deal with. The MIL in my case only has such a toxic influence because my partner keeps inviting her in.

Better a dysfunctional family that has little to do with each than one that tries to pretend they are the solid model family

I realise that I have no idea how to protect the kids from ther mother's behaviour. I never dreamed I would be saying that, but it's true

.

I went through this when my partners behavior was toxic to everyone else in the family, thank god that has now past. I had no idea either, everything I did, or didn't do, seemed to make it worse. It is a guilt that I find hard to put behind me. I brought my kids into this RS and couldn't protect them. If it wasn't for bpdfamily.com then the reality would'nt have been possible to get through either. Now my partner is only toxic towards herself

[Moselle]

When you do... .ACTION,

I FEEL... .

I would LIKE... .

Or I will NEED to... .

D10 used this communication tool this morning with her mother when she was speaking abusively towards her. She was careful to do it in my presence so she would have back up, and W responded well to it. Saying sorry and giving her a kiss.

I was so proud of her!

[Moselle]

I went through this when my partners behavior was toxic to everyone else in the family, thank god that has now past. I had no idea either, everything I did, or didn't do, seemed to make it worse. It is a guilt that I find hard to put behind me. I brought my kids into this RS and couldn't protect them. If it wasn't for bpdfamily.com then the reality would'nt have been possible to get through either. Now my partner is only toxic towards herself

That's quite an achievement - that she's not toxic towards the rest of the family! Is that a function of the rest of the family putting in effective boundaries,  or a general improvement in your partner's behaviour?

Sorry to hear she's still toxic to herself. That's tough to witness.

Regarding children, I just found this in "The Lessons". It seems that unless he mother decides to change herself, the children are certain to be adversely affected socially and emotionally.

It has been found that a mother with BPD’s maladaptive childhood attachment status is passed down to the next generation through the replication of the unresolved trauma in the mother’s life (for a discussion of the extent of transmission, see Crandell et al., 1997; Crandell et al., 2003; Van IJzendoorn, 1995). In fact, the manner in which a mother reflects on past trauma in her own life is related to the quality of the relationship between the mother and her own child (Crandell et al., 1997; Van IJzendoorn, 1995). The mother with BPD’s history of childhood trauma becomes replicated in her own family through the reproduction of a maladaptive family environment and explicit parenting behaviors. Feldman, Zelkowitz, Weiss, Vogel, Heyman, & Paris (1995) discovered that families of mothers with BPD, similar to the families of origin of mothers with BPD, were significantly less cohesive, less organized and marked overall by more instability than families without borderline pathology.

[waverider]

That's quite an achievement - that she's not toxic towards the rest of the family! Is that a function of the rest of the family putting in effective boundaries,  or a general improvement in your partner's behaviour?

Due to the hard work I have done here, eventually reducing her defensiveness to the degree that we can talk about things and be on the same side. This reduced the defensive/denial stance. There was extreme toxic behavior on the back of alcohol issue and medication abuse.

She was long term diagnosed OCD with anxiety and panic disorders, so being aware of having mental issues was not a barrier, but still BPD was not accepted readily, mainly because it was a change from her entrenched label for herself.

This then followed by wanting to be 'fixed', but there is no quick fix. This spiraled into self harm and overdosing to try to get "the system" to do something. Being on the same side and identifying the disorder as "the third toxic party" in the RS, helped her identify and own the horrors she had subjected others to.

She is still low function with BPD thought patterns. There is a huge dose of neediness and victim playing, but she does not dump on me or the kids and is appreciative that we have stuck by her.

[Moselle]

From my short journey the last 12 months, I recognise the hard work it must have taken to get there!

Mine is going in and out of denial about this.

When she has a moment of honesty, and tells me about one diagnosis or another, I put it in an email and send it to her. But the darkness closes soon enough and she reverts to the delusion.

The "third toxic party". Very clever!. Separating the person from the disdorder/s.

[waverider]

The "third toxic party". Very clever!. Separating the person from the disdorder/s.

If you dont openly separate the disorder any criticism of the disordered behavior is a criticism of her, and she is bound to defend it. It can however, cause her to use it as an excuse "the disorder made me do it", but that is better than denying there is a problem altogether.

A pwBPD has no problem bonding with you whilst blaming and disliking a third party. Together you can triangulate the disorder

[formflier]

 

Interesting concept... .

It seems to me that the first key is for them to accept there is a "disorder"... or something wrong.

2nd... .that the disorder is a bit separate from them.

Maybe 3rd... .that you are on their side.

Am I close here... .?

[waverider]

Interesting concept... .

It seems to me that the first key is for them to accept there is a "disorder"... or something wrong.

2nd... .that the disorder is a bit separate from them.

Maybe 3rd... .that you are on their side.

Am I close here... .?

Pretty much, step 1 is is more achievable if you can for yourself separate them from the disorder as then you wont be as confronting. Being confronting, as everyone they have ever know has been, is what has build such a strong defensive attitude.

Removing fear of attack is necessary to get anywhere near getting their finger off the nuke button

[Moselle]

If I say the word "disorder" or "BPD" or "NPD", the nukes are already in the air before i've finished the sentence

What has worked for me is to tell her, "I love you, but not the 'chaos'". I've also had a benign response to "I love you, but I don't love some of the things you do and say".

I like the "bonding" part of this. But she's not engaging in any way until "You have earned my trust again"

[waverider]

If I say the word "disorder" or "BPD" or "NPD", the nukes are already in the air before i've finished the sentence

No need for labels until either a T brings it up or it seems she is ready for it. Just acknowledgement that she she has "troubles" or "issues'" with her emotions. She will know she has. Think of acknowledging it rather than sounding like accusing or blaming for it

[Moselle]

OK. I got to practice this in a very dramatic way today. She went BEZERK over a change of Christmas plans.  I needed to postpone the leaving date by two days. And she went stark raving, screaming mad. In front of the kids. Divorce,  expletives,  derogatory remarks about the male organ. It was the worst I have seen. And I've seen lots.

I got out the way and  suddenly remembered a trailer that needed picking up.

I came back 40 minutes later, and it set her off again,  so I figured recording her with my phone might temper her ( it has worked fairly well before) but this time it sent her into the stratosphere. 

The kids were crying. Etc etc etc.

After today,  I seriously question whether I am strong enough to do this. I think it's too big for me.

She is diagnosed with impulse control disorder,  eating disorder (I have this confirmed in writing by psychiatrist) obsessive disorder, General Anxiety Disorder (confirmed by her psychiatrist to me over the phone), Borderline traits and Narcissistic traits (confirmed by W in writing when she apologised for the physical abuse over 14 years)

Now she denies that she has any disorder.

I stated over and over through this nightmare of a day, that I separate her from the disorder.  That I love and care about her, but dislike the disorder. That I'm on her side. I validated her and complimented her. I think I might have validated the invalid too :-(

She said she wanted me to die today.  I realise that it's probably about how she's feeling about herself, but this is devastating!

The good news is she apologised to me and the children later, but this was a shocking one.

I hope she got the message about separating her from the disorder! !

[Cat Familiar]

Moselle, that is so awful!   

Do you have a strategy to separate yourself and the kids from a display like that in the future?

Do you think she's getting worse on a daily basis?

Are you all safe?

 

[Moselle]

Thanks Cat. Its the first one like this since I attempted a reconciliation 2 months ago after 10 months apart so it really caught me by surprise.

The severity was actually brutal. 

During it the children were too scared to move for fear of retribution. She threatened to call the police if they left with me :-(

Ironically afterwards, W apologised,  and we agreed with the children and W that if it happened again, we were to leave the house with me and go for an ice cream. So we have plan for next time to get out before the damage is done.

I tried to separate her (who I love) from the disorder/s (which I really really don't) but now that it's over I feel brutalised.

I'm not really keen on more of this.

[Cat Familiar]

It's amazing how fast the ugliness can manifest seemingly out of nowhere with a pwBPD. Were there any signs such a blowup might be forthcoming? Has she been under more stress, other than typical holiday stuff? It's good you have agreed to an escape plan with you and the children. Is there a way that she can alert you in the future to her emotions spiraling out of control?

[formflier]

Ironically afterwards, W apologised,  and we agreed with the children and W that if it happened again, we were to leave the house with me and go for an ice cream. So we have plan for next time to get out before the damage is done.

Good... .this actually is a step forward.

The kids saw it.  You responded well... .things calmed down.  We made a better plan for the future.

This will take hold with them... .won't fix everything... but it will show that these problems can be dealt with.

Also... what is the treatment scheme for your wife... .what is she doing to get better... .when she realizes she needs to get better.

[Grey Kitty]

Good job handling it.

Serious stuff too.

I'd recommend you go over to the divorce/custody board and describe this and ask for advice. Not because you want to do it... .but because if you HAVE to do it, you can better protect the children.

One recommendation I recall is always have a voice recorder going if you are with her. Sure the threat to record is of some use, but the evidence may save yourself or your kids later.

[Moselle]

Thanks Formflier,

It was indeed an improvement. I was very calm through it, and it ended. She is definitely trying to be as difficult as possible, and with holding all intimacy.  She wants me to file for D to make this just go away for her. As you've said before, why give her what she wants?

GK,

Thanks.  Today's drama was fully recorded and now documented and downloaded.  There is no doubt she wants to take it down that route as an easier option. If she finally goes that way, today's evidence will be very difficult to justify.  It was ugly... .very very ugly.

Still, my choice is to stay.  If/when she opts for a healthy route, it will be a good day. But that choice is still hers to make. If she chooses it, it will be fully her choice. I choose to keep the family together.

And I have decided to be wherever my children are. Where they go, I go.

I realised today that my D10 and D5 have a chance. They followed me not her. Despite her attempts to bully them. 

I am concerned with D13. She's showing similar traits. 

[formflier]

 

Recordings... .my wife brought them up...   I did them for a while.  And I have the stored safely. 

They were very triggering for her. 

My recommendation is to not tell her you are doing this... just do it privately... .if you are going to do it.

And... unfortunately... it sounds like you should.

Make double sure you have some backups... .that she can't find