I don't want this to be another sabotaged attempt at therapy.

[Michelle27]

I've been with my husband for about 14.5 years.  The first 7 or so were amazing... .it was as if he was exactly the person I wanted to be with my whole life, something I've since learned is common in a relationship with someone with BPD.  At the 7 year mark, we were hit with devastating news that his then 7 year old son from his first marriage had been horribly sexually abused in his mother's home.  My husband became almost incapacitated and I wound up taking control of everything... .kids, household, finances and the rollercoaster ride became intense.  I dragged him to doctors, a couple's communication course, marriage counseling, various counselors and begged for changes.  During the year I was most intensely trying to help him, I've since discovered he had a year long affair with an acquaintance/friend of mine.   A couple years after that (I suspected it then but didn't know until a few weeks ago for sure), I started pulling away from him emotionally because it just hurt too much and eventually sought out an affair of my own after feeling emotionally alone for so long.  Both of our affairs are now in the open and he swears he wants to get help, even finally accepting what I've told him about how strongly I believe he has BPD.  He read up on it this week and says he now believes it describes what's going on with him and has received a referral to psychiatric care.  I am here because while I want to be supportive and be there for him if he really is going to work through his issues, I also don't want this to be another sabotaged attempt at therapy. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

Welcome, Michelle.  I absolutely understand not wanting to go to therapy because previous therapy with your uBPDh has not gone well.  Therapy with my husband was a nightmare before the diagnosis because he lied and manipulated in therapy.  Now that things are out in the open, it is going much, much better.  Hopefully, you are finding someone that is an expert in BPD would be best.

[Grey Kitty]

I wish your husband the best with therapy. That he wants it is good news.

I also think that the seven good years is very encouraging. Yes there was stuff under the surface even then... .but this shows that he does have the capacity to function better than many people who send their partner to these forums.  It also gives you reason to hope for a good future with him.

Did your husband tell you he ended his affair? And do you believe him?

Have you ended your affair?

I noticed that you say you are new, but saw that you have been a member for a few years and made quite a few posts already. Have you worked through the lessons here before?

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Michelle,

I've had a similar experience with my husband. We had an idyllic nearly 5 years of our 10 year relationship, married for 8. Then something changed and it's been very difficult the last few years. I can't pinpoint any particular event, but we were under lots of stress building a house, his parents died, his financial situation changed dramatically (for the better), and he retired from work he hated.

Like you, he was "exactly the person I wanted to be with my whole life"--it was like a dream come true, until it turned into a nightmare. Not a bad nightmare--not like my first husband, who I suspect was also BPD, but not as high functioning.However, it was really shocking to get to the place where I realized that I didn't actually like this man that I previously had adored. I don't feel this constantly, but he's rather prickly and difficult to be around lots of the time---and I never would have imagined I'd feel this way a few years ago.

I insisted that we do couples counseling and we did, he attending without much enthusiasm and often saying that he felt set up to be attacked. For me, it was the only time that I could air my grievances without being interrupted or getting into a bad argument, but ultimately it was not successful at changing much of our patterns, but it did help us communicate a little better.

Now I've started individual counseling with the same psychotherapist. I initially chose her because I needed someone who was familiar with addictions (my husband abuses alcohol and prescription drugs). Since she has seen his acting out (even toward her), it's been very helpful since I don't need to describe his behavior much and she completely understands. Most people see him and think he's the nicest person on the planet--they don't see his dark side.

Between posting here, reading the links as well as books on BPD, and the individual counseling, I've quickly acquired a number of new strategies for dealing with him. I'm really sad that I'm in the "management" position of dealing with a difficult partner, but I'm also finding that I'm not "setting him off" inadvertently, something that happened so frequently before.

Really the couples counseling was largely a waste of time. He thought I was setting him up for my exiting the relationship, which was not at all the case. And he was not very receptive to the idea of self examination. He is so self-critical that any comment that I make that isn't 100% positive, is taken as criticism--even something as inconsequential as not fully agreeing with some opinion he has about the news cycle.

Something my therapist pointed out was that since we had a great relationship for several years, it's definitely possible to get there again. Frankly it seems like a miracle, but I do have faith that if I keep making changes, it will change the overall dynamic of how we relate. It's taken a while for us to get dysfunctional, so I don't expect any miracles overnight, but I'll just keep on keeping on and keep learning how not to make things worse.

[Michelle27]

Grey Kitty, I must have come here 4 years ago when I first came across information about BPD and was convinced that's what my husband had but I don't remember being here.  I was desperate to get answers and help and was all over the internet and hassling him as well as dragging him to various marriage therapists (all sabotagued by him) as well as insisting he get counseling on his own, nothing of which lasted more than a few sessions.  I even took myself to counseling and begged for help on how to help him and had to be convinced it wasn't my job.  I finally turned to improving myself and am grateful for the changes I've gone through (130 lbs lost, huge leaps in my own self confidence and self worth) but the negative is that in order to accomplish this I've had to emotionally pull back so far that the idea of reinvesting myself fully is daunting.  Now I know that the year I was dragging him and myself all over the place hoping to get help he was in the middle of his almost year long affair and that news is actually only a couple weeks old so I'm still dealing with that.   I only went looking last year after making it clear to him that my needs weren't being met and exactly what they were.  As usual, he made promises but never changed anything so I finally set out to get my needs met.  I'm not proud of that but did learn that I'm worthy of being treated better than I have been.  My husband sees this now I think and is desperate to get me back.  My concern is the desperation genuine? Or is it just another manipulative trick?  I want what I always wanted... .my emotional needs met at home, my home to be safe emotionally for me and for us to have the relationship I thought we had when we met, but I'm unsure if he's even capable of that despite telling me this is what he wants too.

[waverider]

Grey Kitty, I must have come here 4 years ago when I first came across information about BPD and was convinced that's what my husband had but I don't remember being here.  I was desperate to get answers and help and was all over the internet and hassling him as well as dragging him to various marriage therapists (all sabotagued by him) as well as insisting he get counseling on his own, nothing of which lasted more than a few sessions.  I even took myself to counseling and begged for help on how to help him and had to be convinced it wasn't my job.  I finally turned to improving myself and am grateful for the changes I've gone through (130 lbs lost, huge leaps in my own self confidence and self worth) but the negative is that in order to accomplish this I've had to emotionally pull back so far that the idea of reinvesting myself fully is daunting.  Now I know that the year I was dragging him and myself all over the place hoping to get help he was in the middle of his almost year long affair and that news is actually only a couple weeks old so I'm still dealing with that.   I only went looking last year after making it clear to him that my needs weren't being met and exactly what they were.  As usual, he made promises but never changed anything so I finally set out to get my needs met.  I'm not proud of that but did learn that I'm worthy of being treated better than I have been.  My husband sees this now I think and is desperate to get me back.  My concern is the desperation genuine? Or is it just another manipulative trick?  I want what I always wanted... .my emotional needs met at home, my home to be safe emotionally for me and for us to have the relationship I thought we had when we met, but I'm unsure if he's even capable of that despite telling me this is what he wants too.

I think the difference is the last time you were trying to fix him, this time you need to support him in fixing himself. ie he needs to do it for himself rather than just go along with your "demands' or prompts.

Is he going to suddenly change with a wave of a therapists wand? Most likely not there will be self sabotage on the way, that is part of the disorder, and the most infuriating one for everyone involved.

[Grey Kitty]

My husband sees this now I think and is desperate to get me back.  My concern is the desperation genuine? Or is it just another manipulative trick?

What I know of untreated pwBPD prevents a simple either-or answer to those questions. Here's my take:

Yes, his desire to make things work better with you is genuine. And yes, his desire to improve is too.

Today, his way of dealing with the uncomfortable feelings in his world is manipulative behavior targeted at you. (If he has any self-awareness of this, it is fleeting at best!) Any changes in this will take a lot of time and effort on his part. And probably direction from a skilled therapist, and support from you as well.

I want what I always wanted... .my emotional needs met at home, my home to be safe emotionally for me and for us to have the relationship I thought we had when we met, but I'm unsure if he's even capable of that despite telling me this is what he wants too.

He isn't capable today. I think the three things you want are worth looking at separately:

• Your home feeling emotionally safe: This is something that you can pretty much make happen on your own. You can set boundaries that protect yourself from emotional abuse at home. He isn't emotionally safe to be vulnerable with now. It sounds like you have pretty much shut that off.
  
  A middle ground is to start small, build slowly, and see what level of vulnerability is safe with him.



• Your emotional needs met at home: Trying to get ALL your emotional needs met by your husband isn't a very healthy approach. Giving up on him and trying to get them all met with another lover isn't better.
  
  Instead, look for a middle ground where some of your emotional needs met by friends and family. For one, a pwBPD is very bad at validating others because their entire world is twisted around to match their feelings. This makes understanding YOUR feelings as something separate from their own feelings impossible. (i.e. all your negative feelings are because you hate them so much.)
  
  Even if your husband fully recovers from BPD and becomes a LOT more emotionally available to you, your life will be richer for having good validating friendships with other people.



• Have the relationship I thought we had when we met: You will have to grieve the loss of this one now. Once you do that, you can look at the relationship you actually DO have with him. It will be different than the one you had or thought you had. You may notice that it is actually better in some ways.
  
  I hope when you look at it as it is, after mourning the loss, you will see that there is a lot of value in the relationship you do have!

Having stuff like this out in the open doesn't fix things. It makes fixing them a possibility.

Hang in there, and keep working on it!

 GK

[Michelle27]

GK, you make excellent points.  He's been listening without blowing up for a couple weeks now, but I know that doesn't mean much.  He's desperate to keep me and knows I am well past my limit on what I can tolerate anymore. 

Thankfully, my own journey of weight loss and inner work to accomplish this has allowed me to develop healthy enjoyable friendships with a handful of amazing women.  They have been there for me and I am so very grateful for that. 

I also realize now that the amazing relationship I thought I had with my husband those first years was a sham.   His ability to morph into exactly what I needed at that time (which is very different than now as I was weak and dependent then and now I'm so much more independent and strong) that even if he COULD, I know it wouldn't be what I want.  Alternatively, his becoming what I needed rather than knowing himself and his own needs makes me wonder if when he's healing if I'll be what he wants anyway (I'm still obviously struggling with some self esteem issues).  So much to think about... .

[Cat Familiar]

I also realize now that the amazing relationship I thought I had with my husband those first years was a sham.   His ability to morph into exactly what I needed at that time (which is very different than now as I was weak and dependent then and now I'm so much more independent and strong) that even if he COULD, I know it wouldn't be what I want.  Alternatively, his becoming what I needed rather than knowing himself and his own needs makes me wonder if when he's healing if I'll be what he wants anyway (I'm still obviously struggling with some self esteem issues).  So much to think about... .

Do you really think it was a sham? Or did you not have the baggage then that you do now?

Can pwBPD really hold off the splitting for years before they paint you black?

I see some similarities in my relationship in that when we first got together, we were about to embark on a big house expansion project so that we could live together. He  seemed to see himself as my white knight, helping me transform my little house into our dream house. Over time, it became clear that I was the driving force and that his contributions were minimal and decorative. (He still tries to claim credit for how much he contributed, which I find sad and pathetic, but I agree with him that he made a big impact.

So perhaps the realization that I was stronger than he thought caused him to give up trying to morph into exactly what I needed at the time.

Another thought, in addition to asking yourself if you're what he wants as he's healing, is whether he's what you want, now that you're seeing a different side to him than who he presented in the beginning of your relationship.

[Michelle27]

Wow... .I'm so glad you are giving me so much to think about.  You are right, I have to figure out if he's what I want or not.  That's going to take some time and deep thought.  I know now that I am attracted to strong, driven, self confident, successful men.  He is none of those things right now but perhaps he can be those things with his own healing.  There are moments that I wonder if it's worth it because I know it's not supposed to be this hard but other moments that I wonder if those feelings from the early years (being protected, safe and able to depend on him) can come back.  I've talked about that openly with him and he says he wants to be that man again, but will I ever be as secure in that?  I don't know.

[Cat Familiar]

I know now that I am attracted to strong, driven, self confident, successful men.  He is none of those things right now but perhaps he can be those things with his own healing.  There are moments that I wonder if it's worth it because I know it's not supposed to be this hard but other moments that I wonder if those feelings from the early years (being protected, safe and able to depend on him) can come back.  I've talked about that openly with him and he says he wants to be that man again, but will I ever be as secure in that?  I don't know.

I know it's disillusioning after such a bright beginning to the relationship.

Something I see in my husband is his ability to morph into this fabulous person when he's around friends whose approval matters to him. It's like he transforms before my eyes from this broken, downtrodden, self-pitying wretch into a handsome bright witty guy. This is the man I fell in love with and I wonder, What the heck don't you give me that version of yourself anymore?

[formflier]

[  I wonder, What the heck don't you give me that version of yourself anymore?

What does he say about this... ?

[Cat Familiar]

[  I wonder, What the heck don't you give me that version of yourself anymore?

What does he say about this... ?

I'm very new at this and I haven't had the opportunity yet to in the words of my therapist, "put this back on him." It is disconcerting that he can flip a switch and be another person when he wants someone's approval. I've been doing well at keeping the peace, having learned new coping strategies, so I'm ready for when the next opportunity presents itself. He's been so emotionally raw that anything I say gets interpreted as a criticism, so I have to tread very carefully or he flips into his dysregulation instantly.

[waverider]

The problem with pwBPD is that they struggle with their own unique identity and always putting mirrors and facades to "fit in" as required. Once you know this it is hard to hang on to the respect for someone, when you dont really know who that is, or trust what you are seeing as genuine. No matter how well intentioned, or how hard they are trying.

You have to let go of the hope that they will become permanently what you thought they were, or even what they are trying to be, with just a little more effort... Can you learn to accept someone who you can't completely trust to be, and feel, what they they are presenting to you at face value? Some people can come to accept this as just part of the disability and work around it. Some cant.

Being here you will come to learn exactly what it is you are dealing with and whether you can live with what can't be changed. It is very unlikely that they can be "fixed up" so that they become what you want, or believe, they can be.

For the RS to survive and thrive you will both have to move to a different expectation. Even if someone has become trait free, they will be a different person, and you will to, and compatibility is still no guarantee.

[Grey Kitty]

I have to figure out if he's what I want or not.  That's going to take some time and deep thought.  I know now that I am attracted to strong, driven, self confident, successful men.  He is none of those things right now but perhaps he can be those things with his own healing.

Indeed, one of life's really tough questions.

Being in near that place myself, and also having been through times like that before, and seen others go through it, I do have one pragmatic recommendation:

Put the time and effort in right now, to live as well as you can with him.

He can throw some tough stuff at you. You will be stronger for learning how to handle it.

In order to have any success, you will need to develop very good boundaries. There isn't a better proving ground for them in the world than your marriage right now. If you can do this inside your marriage, you will be able to do it anywhere, and that will serve you very well.

And finally... .once you are doing all you can on your side of the fence, his behavior will almost certainly improve. It may be enough to make staying seem worthwhile to you. Or not. Trust me, you really can improve your marriage.

You will know how it feels to you then, and can choose then.

... .I've seen people who first did all they could to stay, then left when it became completely clear that it was the right choice. They seem to be thriving sooner out of their marriage, because they did a bunch of hard work while they were still in it.

Your time staying won't be wasted.

[Cat Familiar]

The problem with pwBPD is that they struggle with their own unique identity and always putting mirrors and facades to "fit in" as required. Once you know this it is hard to hang on to the respect for someone, when you dont really know who that is, or trust what you are seeing as genuine. No matter how well intentioned, or how hard they are trying.

You have to let go of the hope that they will become permanently what you thought they were, or even what they are trying to be, with just a little more effort... Can you learn to accept someone who you can't completely trust to be, and feel, what they they are presenting to you at face value? Some people can come to accept this as just part of the disability and work around it. Some cant.

Being here you will come to learn exactly what it is you are dealing with and whether you can live with what can't be changed. It is very unlikely that they can be "fixed up" so that they become what you want, or believe, they can be.

For the RS to survive and thrive you will both have to move to a different expectation. Even if someone has become trait free, they will be a different person, and you will to, and compatibility is still no guarantee.

I'm struggling a lot with the lack of respect I feel for him after thinking so highly of him at first. Also I find it really interesting that he was able to maintain the facade with me as long as he did. In recent years there's been little attempt for him to be on his best behavior with me--or even be pleasant to be around. And he's hyper vigilant for any less than perfect behavior from me.

I do find that through changing my behavior and not giving him anything to hook onto, ignoring his unpleasant comments, just moving on in general and keeping my mood up--that has made the atmosphere much nicer. I'm still in a bit of a p!$$ed off place thinking that I have to do all the heavy lifting.

[Cat Familiar]

Put the time and effort in right now, to live as well as you can with him.

He can throw some tough stuff at you. You will be stronger for learning how to handle it.

In order to have any success, you will need to develop very good boundaries. There isn't a better proving ground for them in the world than your marriage right now. If you can do this inside your marriage, you will be able to do it anywhere, and that will serve you very well.

And finally... .once you are doing all you can on your side of the fence, his behavior will almost certainly improve. It may be enough to make staying seem worthwhile to you. Or not. Trust me, you really can improve your marriage.

You will know how it feels to you then, and can choose then.

... .I've seen people who first did all they could to stay, then left when it became completely clear that it was the right choice. They seem to be thriving sooner out of their marriage, because they did a bunch of hard work while they were still in it.

Your time staying won't be wasted.

Good advice, GK. "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" and a better communicator.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm still in a bit of a p!$$ed off place thinking that I have to do all the heavy lifting.

Welcome to the Staying Board!  We're all here because our partners cannot emotionally take the lead... .They either go in circles, or if there is a direction, it is straight down.

And yep it sucks. I wish I could pretend it wasn't my reality, or pretend that I don't care... .but I'm done with that. It *IS* my reality however much I dislike it.

In order to get myself or my marriage anyplace I want to be, I've got to do the heavy lifting, and I've got to take the lead.

Lately I'm more sad than pissed off.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm still in a bit of a p!$$ed off place thinking that I have to do all the heavy lifting.

Welcome to the Staying Board!  We're all here because our partners cannot emotionally take the lead... .They either go in circles, or if there is a direction, it is straight down.

And yep it sucks. I wish I could pretend it wasn't my reality, or pretend that I don't care... .but I'm done with that. It *IS* my reality however much I dislike it.

In order to get myself or my marriage anyplace I want to be, I've got to do the heavy lifting, and I've got to take the lead.

Lately I'm more sad than pissed off.

So true. Hugs to you, GK. You help so many people here.  

[waverider]

I have to figure out if he's what I want or not.  That's going to take some time and deep thought.  I know now that I am attracted to strong, driven, self confident, successful men.  He is none of those things right now but perhaps he can be those things with his own healing.

Indeed, one of life's really tough questions.

Being in near that place myself, and also having been through times like that before, and seen others go through it, I do have one pragmatic recommendation:

Put the time and effort in right now, to live as well as you can with him.

He can throw some tough stuff at you. You will be stronger for learning how to handle it.

In order to have any success, you will need to develop very good boundaries. There isn't a better proving ground for them in the world than your marriage right now. If you can do this inside your marriage, you will be able to do it anywhere, and that will serve you very well.

And finally... .once you are doing all you can on your side of the fence, his behavior will almost certainly improve. It may be enough to make staying seem worthwhile to you. Or not. Trust me, you really can improve your marriage.

You will know how it feels to you then, and can choose then.

... .I've seen people who first did all they could to stay, then left when it became completely clear that it was the right choice. They seem to be thriving sooner out of their marriage, because they did a bunch of hard work while they were still in it.

Your time staying won't be wasted.

This^^^ is a good post and is the essence of what the Staying Board is all about. It is about committing yourself to better yourself whilst in the RS so that you can cope better with whatever happens in life thereafter. It is not about committing to stay indefinitely no matter what happens. It is your life, it is about gaining clarity to make informed choices.

[Michelle27]

I am so glad I found this board.  Or, as I've been informed, RE-found it.  It's definitely a different perspective when he claims this time he wants help.  Although it's early and I have no faith that he's going to actually follow through.

[formflier]

I am so glad I found this board.  Or, as I've been informed, RE-found it.  It's definitely a different perspective when he claims this time he wants help.  Although it's early and I have no faith that he's going to actually follow through.

I would suggest a slight nuance here.

You should be glad and supportive that he wants help... encourage him but let him do it... try not to appear to want to "push" him. 

Be prepared for setbacks... .be prepared for moves forward.

Especially when he is saying that he "can't" do it anymore... .be prepared to validate his feelings... .

[Michelle27]

That's going to be hard... .to validate his feelings of not being able to continue if/when he gets to that point.  At this moment (and yes, I'm kind of on "moment to moment" right now) I am not sure yet if I'm strong enough to ride the rollercoaster anymore.  I want to try to be there for him while he works through this because it's who I am... .a caregiver at heart.  Yet, I'm also struggling to cope with having been there for him for so long while he has been unable to be there for me.  I'm also less than 2 weeks with the knowledge that his almost year long affair with my supposed friend happened when I was most active trying to make things work and get help for both of us.  And of course, he's unable to validate my feelings on that since he is unable to be empathetic to my feelings.  He keeps saying, "I know you are hurt that I had sex with her" and I keep trying to explain that having had sex with her is the least of my feelings.  Hell, he's even tried to excuse his behavior by saying that he did it because we weren't having enough sex.  No, my feelings are more pain and anger that according to the woman he was emotionally there for her so much that she got the courage to leave an abusive relationship.  So he was actually capable of giving that emotional support, but I was apparently not worth the effort until now.  I wish I had the excuse of BPD to not feel my own feelings... .

[formflier]

 

If you can leave the discussions of the affair for the counseling room... .or have them under guidance of the counselor... that would probably be helpful...

Lot's of emotions on both sides... .

[Michelle27]

Yes, there are.  And mine are all over the place right now.  My counseling appointment on Wednesday can't come soon enough. 

[formflier]

Yes, there are.  And mine are all over the place right now.  My counseling appointment on Wednesday can't come soon enough. 

I know the feeling... all to well.  What are you doing between now and Wed to help youself feel/think better about this.

Two weeks is not much time to process something like this... .this is a fresh... .tender wound.

 

Hang in there

[Cat Familiar]

... .he's unable to validate my feelings on that since he is unable to be empathetic to my feelings.  He keeps saying, "I know you are hurt that I had sex with her" and I keep trying to explain that having had sex with her is the least of my feelings.  Hell, he's even tried to excuse his behavior by saying that he did it because we weren't having enough sex.  No, my feelings are more pain and anger that according to the woman he was emotionally there for her so much that she got the courage to leave an abusive relationship.  So he was actually capable of giving that emotional support, but I was apparently not worth the effort until now.  I wish I had the excuse of BPD to not feel my own feelings... .

I find it really amazing that pwBPD can often express to other people just the sort of support we would wish they'd give us. They obviously know how to be supportive--they seem to think it's OK to deny that support to their spouse.

[formflier]

 

This is one of the key reasons why it is a good tactic to ask them to demonstrate to you what they want you do to... .vice just tell.

Most of the time... .the drop the request.

However... sometimes there is some self awareness and the behavior improves.

[Grey Kitty]

I wish I had the excuse of BPD to not feel my own feelings... .

Be thankful that you probably won't get your wish.

My journey in the last couple months has been one of starting to pay attention to the feelings I've mostly stuffed for twenty years. I wasn't as good as a pwBPD is at avoiding them, but I did pretty well.

I NEVER want to go back to living that way.

[waverider]

I find it really amazing that pwBPD can often express to other people just the sort of support we would wish they'd give us. They obviously know how to be supportive--they seem to think it's OK to deny that support to their spouse.

That is part of the honeymoon idealization/mirroring phase. It would not go any deeper. If that RS went anywhere it would end up in the same place with someone else feeling as though they were duped.

She is not getting a different person, just a different phase