New to the forum, questions about my first baby and my BPD mother

[ftm0514]

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum; very glad that it exists. Here's my story: my mother exhibits several BPD traits, but to my knowledge has never been formally diagnosed. She has always exhibited irrational avoidance of perceived abandonment, severely unstable interpersonal relationships, impulsive actions, recurrent severe depression with at least 1 suicide attempt that I know of, and huge instability of moods. Growing up, I just knew she struggled with "depression," but over the past 2-3 years I have done more research into BPD and I do think that she falls into this category. I am 29 years old and pregnant with my first child with my husband of 3 years.  To try to keep this post short, I'll just say that my childhood had a lot of characteristics that I am now finding to be common to homes with BPD mothers. My mother did not fly into rages or shout or scream, but she was constantly fluctuating between complete helplessness/need (an emotional black hole that I somehow had to fill as the oldest child) and white-fisted control of the discipline in the house (inappropriately frequent and severe corporal punishment, religious and emotional abuse directed at me as the "bad child," punishments consisting of me being isolated other family members, not allowed to speak for 24-48 hours at a time, etc). I struggled with depression, self-harm and suicidal thoughts for most of my childhood into high school, but when I left for college the change of environment worked wonders and I suddenly could function like a normal human being again. I gradually reconnected with my mother through my post-college years and in the last few years have been able to establish a tentative relationship with her where I just steer us away from conflict and try to keep our conversations in "safe" areas. She doesn't seem to be as bad as many of the BPD mothers that I am reading about in this forum; she doesn't call me names, she doesn't scream at me or berate me constantly. The problem is that now my father and her are divorcing, and her behaviors are escalating. She is very quietly requiring that I be on her side in the divorce, and if I do not conform to her view of reality she acts very victimized and begins to demand that I treat her with more respect. Most recently she decided to cut off communication with me and my brother "until the divorce is finalized."

I have two questions. One, what is the best that I can expect from my mother? I would like to set a boundary with her that she is not able to waltz in and out of my life like this, especially since I have a baby on the way. This may not be possible for a person with BPD though- so the choice may be to cut off contact entirely or to accept that my mother will cut and run every so often. I have tried and failed to think of appropriate consequences to implement for this behavior, but I am coming up dry. How do I explain to my mother (whenever she decides to talk to me again) that I am unable to feel close to her and share excitement and joy about my baby with her because I can't trust her? I know that if I say that to my mother she will somehow twist it to where she is the victim, and the whole conversation will be for naught. Any suggestions would be helpful.

My second question involves my child. As my mother is more of a passive BPD individual and doesn't exhibit storms of rage, shouting, screaming, etc, what are the chances that my child could have a non-damaging relationship with her as a grandmother? I feel like I barely survived my childhood with my mother so I am very VERY reluctant to trust her with my child. However, perhaps I am exaggerating the potential danger. It could be that her distortion of reality and subtle manipulation wouldn't even phase a child. Has anyone been able to set boundaries with BPD parents regarding the grandchildren and have it work? 

I apologize for the length of my post-- thank you in advance for any insights that you may have!

[rebl.brown]

Wow, what a thoughtful and well written post.  Hats off to you for surviving and then going on to create a good life for yourself.  I'm 52 and had a very similar childhood.  My mother too was never diagnosed with BPD but exhibited all the traits you described.  My children are grown now and I wanted to reply to your post.  I hope what I say will perhaps save you years of sorrow and heartbreak.  I know no one's life is exactly the same as another's but I hope my experience may help you a little. 

Your Mom is probably more severely affected by BPD than you can understand yet.  I say that because you've kind of said "she's not as bad as some" in your post but then you go on to describe her behavior all the way up to suicide.  That is very severe.  You don't have to be a screamer to destroy someone.  The subversive behavior can be worse.  It blind sides you and no one outside of the family and sometimes even those within can't see it. 

If your mother is truly BPD you will never have the kind of relationship you long for with her.  She is not able to do this.  You will not be able to share the joy of your first baby in a normal way.  My mother would have never understood a conversation like the one you describe.  Accepting her for who she is was my gift to her and to myself.  She will most likely treat your children the same way she treated you.  It it who she is and she doesn't have the capability to have a relationship that is not damaging in some way.  Your first priority is to have strong, I mean strong boundaries, especially when it involves your child.

If your mother suffers from depression severe enough to cause suicidal ideation, please do not ever leave your baby alone with her or let her drive your child in the car somewhere.  The decisions you make when your baby comes are really important as they will set the stage for your adult relationship with your mother for a long time.

You should be so proud of yourself.  You already have great boundaries and terrific insight.  You must be very smart.  You are a blessing and I am so sorry your mother is not able to appreciate the wonderful daughter she has.  I'm pulling for you.  Blessings

[ftm0514]

Thank you rebl.brown- I appreciate your understanding and your insights. It is a huge relief to have someone else echo and validate my experiences.

The subversive behavior can be worse.  It blind sides you and no one outside of the family and sometimes even those within can't see it. 

This is so true, and it is the part that makes me feel crazy. There are so many different "true" versions of my mother that it makes me feel fragmented and crazy myself trying to understand it or describe it.

I also appreciate your advice to accept my mother for who she is; this is the hardest part for me, and likely the part that I need to work on most. Boundaries will need to be constructed based on who she actually is, not who I wish she were.

Thank you again, and happy holidays. Good luck in your own journey, and congratulations on surviving!

[Ziggiddy]

Hi ftm0514

and welcome to the forum.

I must say i agree with what  rebl.brown has to say in many respects, especially in the area of you perhaps not quite comprehending yet the scope of effects upon yourself yet. It can take quite some time to review in terms of your discovery of possible BPD. I am 9 months into investigating the effects and am still surprised to find what I thought was normal behaviour is not at all!

But yes you have made a great deal of progress and made some excellent decisions, in particular ones to protect yourself and your baby (congratulations btw!)

I actually started coming to conclusions when I became a mother, and like you I thought the impact my mother would have on my children would be minimal in comparison to me and my siblings. maybe slightly differently than yours my mum WAS an overt abuser - physically and I thought that because she stopped doing that it meant she would not abuse my kids (I didn't realise it was abuse then)

Hmm. uh uh. She is pervasively undermining at best and psychologically cruel at worst  -depending on her mood. The worst thing is, she seems to push back specifically at my boundaries. i have found it more useful not to inform her of my boundaries but that is a choice for each person to make.

And reblbrown is also correct in that neither you nor your child will be able to have the r/ship you imagine unless your mother applies herself to real efforts in therapy. It just doesn't resolve on it's own.

My advice would be to research and research - I suggest starting at the Survivor to Thriver Guide over to the right here --------->

To really try and think of the behaviours she had that affected you and your emotional growth - in particular the ones that led you to lower your level of contact with her and most especially the ones that affected you to the point of considering suicide.

Imagine if you had a daughter - would you behave to your own child in that way?

Please also be careful not to minimise your mother's behaviour.

We can do that out of a sense of trying to be moderate or forgiving - I would ask you this - if a mother slapped her child's head is that better than her kicking her child?

Well no. Clearly they are both wrong. It's not at all relative. Just because she doesn't engage in some of the other BPD behaviours doesn't make the ones she DOES engage in acceptable.

I hope this helps somewhat

best of luck

Ziggiddy

[littlebirdcline]

Thanks for bringing this up.  I have been thinking about this alot lately.  My husband wants to cut off all contact with my mother, but is tolerating me talking to her some, and even went to meet them for a Christmas lunch last week.  But he doesn't want my son to be around her when he's not there.  I guess he thinks I won't stand up to her sufficiently.  My son loves my BPDm dearly and adores my nBPDf.  He just said this morning that he wants them to come next Christmas instead of my husband's parents.  Meanwhile, my husband doesn't even want my mother at his birthday party in April.

So, as I said I've been pondering this a lot.  My childhood was very, very rarely screaming abuse.  I was the "perfect" child and did everything the way my mother expected.  The main issues in my childhood were being her emotional support and dumping ground for all her problems- especially with my dad and her mother- from a very young, very inappropriate age.  I have been told since I was a kid that I was the only person she could talk to and depend on.  She actively worked to make sure we loved her more than my dad, and still resents any positivity we exhibit towards him.  (And they are still married!)  She is incredibly negative, and instilled that incredibly pessimistic world view in my brother and I.  The real abuse and horrible fights didn't start until I went to college and started to separate from her.  Everything I have ever done that she didn't agree with (and there's been a lot), is perceived as a rejection or attack on her.  Things have gotten uglier as I have gotten older.

I say all that to say that I guess I was just assuming she wouldn't do anything abusive to him because he's a kid, and she didn't really do that kind of thing when we were kids.  But she has already made comments like "I didn't know if we would ever see you again" after a period of NC.  He's 5!  And the pessimism and negativity are ever present.  So, how do you balance it?  How do you know what's more damaging, a relationship with a BPDgm or no relationship at all?

I wish I knew.  I wish I had some words of wisdom.  Just letting you know others are dealing with the same thing.

[GeekyGirl]

Hi ftm0514,

Welcome, and congratulations on your pregnancy!   It makes a lot of sense that as you're approaching motherhood that you're taking a closer look at your mother, and I see what led you here. I've been in your shoes--it was after my DS was born that I really saw my mother for (what felt like) the first time. She's also one to disappear, as the silent treatment is her way of dealing with conflict.

You've asked some good questions, and while there are no easy one-size-fits-all answers, you'll find that many of us here have struggled with similar issues.

I agree that checking out the Survivor's Guide is a good place to start, to really focus on your healing. It can be hard to see your mother in this new light, and while learning about BPD may provide some answers, it will also undoubtedly raise new questions. You seem to have a clear idea of what kind of behavior to expect from your mother and what your limits will be. Boundaries are a good thing, and as a new parent, you'll need them.

One, what is the best that I can expect from my mother? I would like to set a boundary with her that she is not able to waltz in and out of my life like this, especially since I have a baby on the way. This may not be possible for a person with BPD though- so the choice may be to cut off contact entirely or to accept that my mother will cut and run every so often.

How do I explain to my mother (whenever she decides to talk to me again) that I am unable to feel close to her and share excitement and joy about my baby with her because I can't trust her?

I've never gone as far as to say to my mother that I wouldn't trust her, but I've avoided putting my son in situations where he'd be alone with my mother. As far as setting the boundary with your mother, I think it's very appropriate that you don't want her in and out of your life. That said, the best way I've found to handle my mother when she behaves that way is to recognize that that's how she is and keep my door open to her. If she chooses to give me the silent treatment, that's her choice. I do not have a close relationship with her, but my son knows who she is and seems ok with having a closer relationship with his other (healthy) grandmother.

My second question involves my child. As my mother is more of a passive BPD individual and doesn't exhibit storms of rage, shouting, screaming, etc, what are the chances that my child could have a non-damaging relationship with her as a grandmother?

Has anyone been able to set boundaries with BPD parents regarding the grandchildren and have it work? 

As I mentioned above, my son is much closer to my husband's parents than mine. I'm ok with that. He's ok with that. I wish that my mother could be the nurturing, loving grandmother that I'd want her to be, but she's not. This is where you really need to look at your mother's behavior and decide how involved you want her to be with your child. The solution for us has been to have a very casual, somewhat distant relationship between my mother and son. Is it ideal? Maybe, and maybe not. How involved do you want your mother to be in your child's life, and how would you make that relationship work? How might you communicate your boundaries (discipline, etc) to your mother?

You're right to be thinking about this now--believe me, you'll have a lot of other things on your mind soon enough! Keep us posted on how you're doing!

[MiserableDaughter]

I also was hoping that my mom's undiagnosed BPD wouldn't affect her being a grandmother as much... .My son is 2 and a half. She literally competes with me to be his favorite. Though I specifically ask her to not buy him certain things she will deliberately go and buy him everything and anything I say no to, just so she can be the good one. I literally have seen her whispering into his ear. Recently she was changing his diaper upstairs and the monitor was on without her realizing. I actually heard her saying "you want to go to grandma's house don't u? You love me, right? Tell mama you love me. Tell her you want to go to grandma's house." So my little boy comes downstairs and like a parrot repeats "wanna go to grandma's house." My mom actually looks all shocked and says "oh! What did u say?" I've caught her brainwashing my two year many many times. In an argument recently she actually told me "your afraid he's gonna be on my side." And I'm thinking, there are sides? It really freaked me out. I can go on and on about her bizarre and narcissistic behavior with my son. I'm not someone who can completely cut her off, so u I keep telling my husband I want to move far away... .So yes, there BPD behavior DOES come out all over again with grandkids.

[estelithil]

I also was hoping that my mom's undiagnosed BPD wouldn't affect her being a grandmother as much... .My son is 2 and a half. She literally competes with me to be his favorite. Though I specifically ask her to not buy him certain things she will deliberately go and buy him everything and anything I say no to, just so she can be the good one. I literally have seen her whispering into his ear. Recently she was changing his diaper upstairs and the monitor was on without her realizing. I actually heard her saying "you want to go to grandma's house don't u? You love me, right? Tell mama you love me. Tell her you want to go to grandma's house." So my little boy comes downstairs and like a parrot repeats "wanna go to grandma's house." My mom actually looks all shocked and says "oh! What did u say?" I've caught her brainwashing my two year many many times. In an argument recently she actually told me "your afraid he's gonna be on my side." And I'm thinking, there are sides? It really freaked me out. I can go on and on about her bizarre and narcissistic behavior with my son. I'm not someone who can completely cut her off, so u I keep telling my husband I want to move far away... .So yes, there BPD behavior DOES come out all over again with grandkids.

My uBPDm does this with my niece. Drives my sister bonkers. My niece is 10 now and is incredibly smart and insightful - she doesn't fall for Nanny's tricks anymore.

With my first baby due at the end of Feb, Im also concerned with what kind of relationship she can have with my child. Thanks for posting this! Good topic - hope others have some more input.

[GeekyGirl]

I also was hoping that my mom's undiagnosed BPD wouldn't affect her being a grandmother as much... .My son is 2 and a half. She literally competes with me to be his favorite. Though I specifically ask her to not buy him certain things she will deliberately go and buy him everything and anything I say no to, just so she can be the good one.

It used to drive me crazy when my mother would buy extravagant gifts. This is where a boundary really helps, and I've asked my mother to set a limit for my son (no more than $50) or give him experiences or homemade gifts instead of toys. I've also given her some guidelines and said things like, "[DS] really could use some more socks and t-shirts. I know that you love shopping for him, and he likes your gifts, so please keep that in mind for Christmas." It has worked pretty well. I'll admit--I've also donated gifts that DS received and didn't need.

When setting boundaries, I've found that telling my mother what IS acceptable tends to be better received than telling her what isn't acceptable. Hope that helps!

[ftm0514]

Wow everyone, thank you for the input. This is really helpful. It's really nice to know (sad, but nice) that other people have gone through these issues, and that the decisions that I am struggling with are valid things to struggle with. 

I don't have any answers yet--my mother is still not communicating with me--but I am working on figuring out some boundaries for when she does establish contact again. I think I'm just going to have to accept that she isn't trustworthy enough to be around my child alone. It hurts but it is best.

I hope each one of you had a good holiday season!

[Crayfog]

First, welcome and congrats on your baby! I had a similar childhood, am also the oldest. When I was pregnant (almost six years ago) I had been in therapy for years but focused on my mom issues in the hopes that I would be a different mom and learn good boundaries with her.

I was terrified of inviting her around the birth... .But she idealizes babies and she honestly wonderful. I'm not saying this will be the case for you, but this was the one time I had the mom I always wanted. I was also able to see that perhaps when I was a baby, she had that unconditional love for me.

As all the grandkids have aged she's focused on the youngest to be the favorites. But as with all things BPD you never know. So decide what your boundaries are ahead of time and stick with them. If you want to tell her the consequences after the first time she crosses, then the responsibility for her behavior is on her. It's not just you being a disrespectful unloving daughter.

You do have to tell her when she crosses them so she may cut you off. I'm so sorry it's like this, but they really can't love us unconditionally. You can change the family dynamic with your baby. Protecting your new family is worth the cost.

[Ziggiddy]

That was a really interesting read.

Crayfog I was amazed at the memories your comment provoked in me.

My mum always wanted to be a grandmother but my experience was quite different. I was not aware she was disordered then but I remember again and again that she would ignore my boundaries - giving me 'off' food to eat whilst pregnant then calling me picky and fussy for not eating it, shaking the baby around with too much force and then criticising me for the baby being all worked up and having to take so long to settle back down? And most bizarre and worrying, just before I was due to give birth  I was trying on a maternity bra whilst at her house and she came over to me, grabbed my boob and started milking it to see if i had milk!1 You know I think that's the first time I ever thought about how incredibly wrong and invasive that was to do!   Wretched woman

PS sorry ftm for the post hijack!

[estelithil]

And most bizarre and worrying, just before I was due to give birth  I was trying on a maternity bra whilst at her house and she came over to me, grabbed my boob and started milking it to see if i had milk!1 You know I think that's the first time I ever thought about how incredibly wrong and invasive that was to do!   Wretched woman

When I got my first period (at 14) my uBPDm made me show her my soiled sanitary pad. She literally asked me to pull down my pants and underwear and show it to her. At the time I didn't think much of it, but now I realise it was very very strange behaviour. She would often reach into our bras and pull up our breasts when we were younger too, to make them look bigger, while stating "I'm not being rude, just let me fix this". She likes to think we can get changed in front of her and gets miffed when we go into another room, often saying "it's nothing I haven't seen before" i.e. when we were young children. I don't think it's a sexual thing, she just has no idea of boundaries in these areas now we are adults.This is another reason why I won't allow her to have unsupervised access to my child.