How to effectively counter no rhetorical questions

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Ultimately... .I take this new behavior on her part as validation that the tools are working.  I've changed... .so she is forced to change because her "old tricks" aren't working... .  So... this is a good thing... it's just new to me... .  Here goes

So... we have normal holiday stress.

Her grandmother just passed away.  No shock... .we've been preparing for a long time and the timing is "good" because kids don't have to miss any school.

So... .she has started talking to me in rhetorical questions... .when she is slightly dysregulated... .or on the way to being dysregulated.  And claiming that I should understand and that my lack of understanding "tells her things".

I stick with the "I"m sorry you feel this way... ."... ."Help me understand... .does this mean you want to to x right now... "... .which is answered by more rhetorical questions...

Here is the key... .if I go along with whatever she wants to do... .and I don't get  a "yes I want to do that... ." clear answer... it will usually get "flipped" on me where I wanted to do it... .she didn't... .and I'm bad. 

So... .if she answers "Why would I be asking if I didn't want to do it... "... .and I take that is a yes... .bad things are in store for FF.

So... .I don't know if it is a "boundary" or rule... .but I've been taking no action... .unless I get a clear answer... .or unless it is something I think is wise to do.

I'm frustrated... .she is frustrated. 

Then... .she will occasionally throw in that I'm not supposed to answer them... .I'm just supposed to listen to the rhetorical questions.  But just as often... ."why aren't you answering me... ."  is posed... .and "because you asked me to listen... ." is not a good answer.

Hoping others have stories of how to not "invalidate" while doing this.  And how to nudge this towards effective communications.

[formflier]

Ultimately... .I take this new behavior on her part as validation that the tools are working.  I've changed... .so she is forced to change because her "old tricks" aren't working... .  So... this is a good thing... it's just new to me... .  Here goes

So... we have normal holiday stress.

Her grandmother just passed away.  No shock... .we've been preparing for a long time and the timing is "good" because kids don't have to miss any school.

So... .she has started talking to me in rhetorical questions... .when she is slightly dysregulated... .or on the way to being dysregulated.  And claiming that I should understand and that my lack of understanding "tells her things".

I stick with the "I"m sorry you feel this way... ."... ."Help me understand... .does this mean you want to to x right now... "... .which is answered by more rhetorical questions...

Here is the key... .if I go along with whatever she wants to do... .and I don't get  a "yes I want to do that... ." clear answer... it will usually get "flipped" on me where I wanted to do it... .she didn't... .and I'm bad. 

So... .if she answers "Why would I be asking if I didn't want to do it... "... .and I take that is a yes... .bad things are in store for FF.

So... .I don't know if it is a "boundary" or rule... .but I've been taking no action... .unless I get a clear answer... .or unless it is something I think is wise to do.

I'm frustrated... .she is frustrated. 

Then... .she will occasionally throw in that I'm not supposed to answer them... .I'm just supposed to listen to the rhetorical questions.  But just as often... ."why aren't you answering me... ."  is posed... .and "because you asked me to listen... ." is not a good answer.

Hoping others have stories of how to not "invalidate" while doing this.  And how to nudge this towards effective communications.

[SlyQQ]

sometimes no matter what you do you cant win validation wears thin you need something out of left field ( you could tell her a secret from your past they treasure those but remember it can an will be used against you unless you make something up) also you should ask do i have to play this game? this is radical an only a patch an honestly i wouldnt suggest it unless you are very very desperate

[123Phoebe]

Hi formflier, I'm sorry to hear of your wife's grandmother's passing.  At any age or reason, it's a loss

I stick with the "I"m sorry you feel this way... ."... ."Help me understand... .does this mean you want to to x right now... "... .which is answered by more rhetorical questions...

I know you like to use "I'm sorry you feel this way... .".  Honestly, if someone used that line on me it would piss me off.  It would indicate (to me), that they're not really in touch with my feelings, just that they themselves are sorry for whatever reason and giving me the blow off.  :)o you know how she's actually feeling?  Are you interested in her feelings?  I believe you are... . She might not be feeling the love though.

I'm frustrated... .she is frustrated.  

^^ NOW, we're getting places^^

[formflier]

I know you like to use "I'm sorry you feel this way... .".  Honestly, if someone used that line on me it would piss me off.  It would indicate (to me), that they're not really in touch with my feelings, just that they themselves are sorry for whatever reason and giving me the blow off.  :)o you know how she's actually feeling?  Are you interested in her feelings?  I believe you are... . She might not be feeling the love though.

It doesn't seem to cause a reaction... .using that line... .I usually insert the feeling... .or the thing that she just said... .as a way of active listening.

The problem is that we are at a place where decisions need to be made... .and I'm not going to make them without mutual agreement. 

I am done with the game of I won't answer... .he makes the decision... .I get to beat him up on the decision.  I'm done with that game... .regardless of her feelings... .regardless of outcomes.

I think I've found my new theme... .of something that I'm going to try to eliminate from the r/s. 

It seems that "other women" have been eliminated... .through no reactions and boundaries.

[formflier]

 

From my point of view... .I think I stopped feeding whatever she was getting from the "other women"

Somehow... .I just need to stop feeding whatever she is wanting... .or getting at... .with the rhetorical questions and lack of mutual decision making.

She is all about telling me what I should have done... .or what we should have done... .

minimal capability to decide on what do actually do.

This seems new... .I suspect whatever need was getting filled by "other women"... .is now trying to be filled by this odd way of discussing things

[Cole]

She is all about telling me what I should have done... .or what we should have done... .

minimal capability to decide on what do actually do.

Welcome to Colesville. This is an everyday issue in our home. She will not make a decision and tells me to just handle it. Then she comes back at me in the future and tells me I ignored her opinion, I am a control freak, and that we should have done the opposite.  

Writing down the decision does not work, she later accuses me of having bullied her into doing it my way. Leave it 100% up to her and it likely will not get done. Or, she does it and if it turns out wrong, it is my fault for not telling her it would happen that way.  

Wish I had some answers for you, formflier, but I haven't figured out how to deal with it myself. This is one of the no-win situations I hope to find a remedy for on this site.

[Crumbling]

What about finding a common ground. - "Okay we both have to be involved in this decision because we both are effected... .". 

Validation - "I know it's hard for you to commit, but if we both agree, we have a better shot at getting it right".  "And your opinion matters, and I'm not going ahead unless I know you are actually on board and not just tagging along."   

Not putting pressure on them to get an immediate answer helps too, if that's possible. (new lesson I've recently learned  )

We've also found common ground in the notion that if he chooses not to have a say in a decision while the decision is being made, then he is granted no right to voice an opinion after the fact, and I can shut him down if he tries to say "I told you so".  Same holds true for me, just to keep things 'fair'.

I also sometimes imply the 'stupid look' technique.  He makes some nonsensical, semi-rhetorical question/statement and all he gets back is a stupid look.     Then I follow up with, "Sorry, but I'm not sure how to respond to that because it... ." in our case, 'it' usually is because he has made a contradiction to what he just said two minutes before.  I guess this was my own clumsy attempt at the 'help me understand' technique!

Hope something here helps.

c.

[jedimaster]

What about finding a common ground. - "Okay we both have to be involved in this decision because we both are effected... .".  

Validation - "I know it's hard for you to commit, but if we both agree, we have a better shot at getting it right".  "And your opinion matters, and I'm not going ahead unless I know you are actually on board and not just tagging along."  

Not putting pressure on them to get an immediate answer helps too, if that's possible. (new lesson I've recently learned  )

We've also found common ground in the notion that if he chooses not to have a say in a decision while the decision is being made, then he is granted no right to voice an opinion after the fact, and I can shut him down if he tries to say "I told you so".  Same holds true for me, just to keep things 'fair'.

I also sometimes imply the 'stupid look' technique.  He makes some nonsensical, semi-rhetorical question/statement and all he gets back is a stupid look.     Then I follow up with, "Sorry, but I'm not sure how to respond to that because it... ." in our case, 'it' usually is because he has made a contradiction to what he just said two minutes before.  I guess this was my own clumsy attempt at the 'help me understand' technique!

Hope something here helps.

c.

I've used the "I'm not sure how to respond to that" from time to time and it seems to get a pretty good response.  By pretty good I mean that it doesn't cause some over-the-top reaction.  Most of the time it leads to hopping over on another rabbit trail or she just drops the subject.

My BPDw is the master of putting together strings of words that are perfectly useful English words, but in that particular order, they say absolutely nothing.  They're so general, so rhetorical, so abstract that she could be talking about our r/s or the weather in Mongolia.  Stuff like, "I just feel... .it's so frustrating, you know? I just wish I felt more... .; it's like you don't tell me what you should be telling me... .am I making sense?"  I hate that question!  She ends almost every sentence with that when she's trying to get her "point" across.  How can you answer that? "Why yes, dear; that five minutes of pure gibberish makes perfect sense.  Thanks for clearing that up."  

[Crumbling]

JM ~  How can you answer that? "Why yes, dear; that five minutes of pure gibberish makes perfect sense.  Thanks for clearing that up."  ~~ 

Sounds like she stumbles around trying to identify her own feelings.  How about a direct response:  "I'm not sure if it's making sense.  You said... .direct quote... .and that really needs a bit more clarification for me.  I don't want to assume I understand, then be wrong."

I don't know... .just a suggestion, a woman's perspective perhaps. 

c.

[Cole]

Question from someone who is new: Is this a common issue with BPD folks refusing to make decisions so that they cannot be held accountable in the end?

[maxsterling]

Question from someone who is new: Is this a common issue with BPD folks refusing to make decisions so that they cannot be held accountable in the end?

Extremely common  

[maxsterling]

Oooh.  I know how this goes.  SOO frustrating!

I've dealt with this from the beginning of the r/s, and I think it has slowly gotten worse.  In my case, it started off with her saying a bunch of stuff and wanting some kind of response from me, and then get upset when she didn't get a response.  I would then respond with, "You didn't ask a question, so I didn't know you wanted a response."  Of course, my response escalated things.  Now, my issue seems to be more she will be going on and on about something, and if I don't respond immediately, she will say something like, "hello? are you just ignoring me?"  Good grief.  No, I can't respond to an out of the left field question in less than 3 seconds.  Uggh.  I feel angry right now just typing that.  I usually respond with, "I'm thinking about my reply in a mindful way." 

My feeling here is that when she is behaving that way, asking questions that aren't questions, wanting responses without asking questions, and wanting immediate responses, she is already dysregulated.  To me that means the "solution" to this issue needs to be addressed before she gets to that point.  I've been trying to remain more engaged with her on her issues of the day, trying to participate in her thought processes.  That seems to help, but her issues are so numerous and endless, it feels exhausting.  But its definitely different than my old approach.

Before I would listen to her go on and on about some issue that I didn't understand how it was an issue.  I'd just let her go because she was being so negative and I lack skills to deal with that kind of language.  Let's say she would go on and on about a friend in a negative way.  And from what I heard, I could not see where the friend did anything wrong, or where the friend's actions had any need to be discussed.  I would fear jumping into her tank full of sharks, so I would keep her words in one corner of my brain and stay focused on me with the rest of my brain.  Eventually, when she became irritated enough, I would finally jump in - too late.  Now I am trying to jump in early on, after the very first statement by asking some kind of followup question to let her know I am paying attention, and to help clarify to me what she is upset about. 

I still really struggle with this, because sometimes I feel like I am enabling a negative thought process by even responding at all.

[formflier]

I still really struggle with this, because sometimes I feel like I am enabling a negative thought process by even responding at all.

Yes... .I have exactly the same feelings... .that those things should not be thought about at all.  Why spend one minute figuring out what another person is thinking... .or might do in the future.

Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Recently my wife has allowed that maybe she shouldn't "talk things out with me... ."... .that seems to be her phrase for painting people black... .or having a mini dysregulation where she stomps around and talks to herself... .muttering.

I wonder what happens if I agree with her and we agree she will not talk to me in that way any more

I realize this would be a rule... .and probably wouldn't hold. 

I still think it would be interesting to see what happens.

[maxsterling]

Yes... .I have exactly the same feelings... .that those things should not be thought about at all.  Why spend one minute figuring out what another person is thinking... .or might do in the future.

Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Well, me neither.  It's a waste of time, waste of emotional energy.  When she isn't dysregulated, I somehow say as part of the conversation "my life is finite.  I'm not going to waste my time worrying about someone whom I have no control over when I have plenty of other fun things to do.  I used to live that way, and I don't want to live that way again."  She's slowly understanding that, but she still struggles to stop her brain. Understandable, because everyone on here devotes so much unnecessary energy to our pwBPDs problems

So considering that I don't want to live that way, wasting my time with others' problems, it really frustrates me when she wants me to go down that road with her.    Yet not going down that road with her is extremely invalidating, because to her others' problems are her problems and extremely important!  I don't think she is capable of understanding a boundary that I won't discuss other people's problems with her, because that is the head space she constantly lives in.  Without that, she has nothing to talk about.  I don't think this is something that will change quickly, or having a boundary like that would help. 

I really think the best strategy here is to try and engage her on other subjects to help keep her from stewing about other people.  And when she does bring up other people, engage early and try and steer the subject to something more constructive.  Or maybe validate her emotions regarding other people followed by as statement about how the two of you can do something more constructive and fun than worrying about what someone else is doing. 

"Tell me about it!  I know how annoying my brother in law is.  I've put up with his crap for years, and I finally had to decide to just let him be who he is.  His antics aren't worth our time.  Let's try and just do our own thing and enjoy each other and let him be miserable all by himself."

[formflier]

I suspect I'm going to have to just keep my head down until after the funeral... .or whatever is going to happen tomorrow... .(the fact that we don't know... .is another drama)... .'

And then get through Christmas... .

It's odd... .I figured there would be high drama of Christmas... .that's no surprise... .the subject matter seems to be the surprise... .

[123Phoebe]

I still really struggle with this, because sometimes I feel like I am enabling a negative thought process by even responding at all.

Yes... .I have exactly the same feelings... .that those things should not be thought about at all.  Why spend one minute figuring out what another person is thinking... .or might do in the future.

Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Recently my wife has allowed that maybe she shouldn't "talk things out with me... ."... .that seems to be her phrase for painting people black... .or having a mini dysregulation where she stomps around and talks to herself... .muttering.

I wonder what happens if I agree with her and we agree she will not talk to me in that way any more



I realize this would be a rule... .and probably wouldn't hold. 

I still think it would be interesting to see what happens.

I suppose this could be a boundary of yours, that you will not listen to her when she "talks things out with you"... .  Or, you might validate her frustration 

[maxsterling]

I still really struggle with this, because sometimes I feel like I am enabling a negative thought process by even responding at all.

Yes... .I have exactly the same feelings... .that those things should not be thought about at all.  Why spend one minute figuring out what another person is thinking... .or might do in the future.

Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Recently my wife has allowed that maybe she shouldn't "talk things out with me... ."... .that seems to be her phrase for painting people black... .or having a mini dysregulation where she stomps around and talks to herself... .muttering.

I wonder what happens if I agree with her and we agree she will not talk to me in that way any more



I realize this would be a rule... .and probably wouldn't hold. 

I still think it would be interesting to see what happens.

I suppose this could be a boundary of yours, that you will not listen to her when she "talks things out with you"... .  Or, you might validate her frustration 

My feeling on boundaries is to not even try if I don't think she is capable of understanding.  And in this particular issue, I think her response would be that it's my job as her spouse and friend to listen to her vents.  She really, really wants someone to vent to.  And I don't think she is capable of seeing the distinction.  Plus on my end, it's just an annoyance.  I have co-workers who do the same thing.  My mom does the same thing.  I'm sure others have felt that I do the same thing from time to time.  I really think a better route here would be to learn to validate and steer the subject in a healthier way.  My hope here is after I figure out how to perfect that, she will slowly learn not to follow her old pathways. 

Right now she is in this mode where she wants to say bad things or make judgments about my mother or family.  It's all about implying that her family has higher standards than mine or is of some kind of better class.  The choice word a few weeks ago was that my mom is "less evolved" as a woman.      And it really feels insulting and it hurts.  I don't think she understands how it is insulting, and I don't think explaining that to her will bring about change.  So, I am trying to swallow the hurt and validate that family relationships are tough, that my mother is not perfect, and that I don't need her to like my mother but I do need her to accept my mother for who she is.  And then I just refuse to participate in those kind of discussions - but I don't vocalize my refusal.  Instead, I just steer her a different direction.  So far, it is working okay.

[123Phoebe]

Right now she is in this mode where she wants to say bad things or make judgments about my mother or family.  It's all about implying that her family has higher standards than mine or is of some kind of better class.  The choice word a few weeks ago was that my mom is "less evolved" as a woman.      And it really feels insulting and it hurts.  I don't think she understands how it is insulting, and I don't think explaining that to her will bring about change.  So, I am trying to swallow the hurt and validate that family relationships are tough, that my mother is not perfect, and that I don't need her to like my mother but I do need her to accept my mother for who she is.  And then I just refuse to participate in those kind of discussions - but I don't vocalize my refusal.  Instead, I just steer her a different direction.  So far, it is working okay.

Max, ugh.  That would hurt and feel totally insulting to hear something like that said about your mom  

I think in this instance a boundary is needed.  I would definitely put my foot down and shut that sh!t down, pronto.  She doesn't have to 'get it', the nuances of why that's wrong, uncalled for and just plain rude.  All she needs to 'understand' is that you will not listen to that kind of crap being slung around about your mom!  Yuck!  And then go somewhere else, long enough for her to know that you mean it!

[formflier]

My feeling on boundaries is to not even try if I don't think she is capable of understanding.  And in this particular issue, I think her response would be that it's my job as her spouse and friend to listen to her vents.  She really, really wants someone to vent to.  And I don't think she is capable of seeing the distinction. 

Does  she actually use the term "vent"?  That term has started to be used by my wife.  There was conflict today... .that seemed to have a decent resolution. 

Actually ended up having a civil conversation with my wife and daughter about their arguments and a plan to have them be less "fiery" in the future.

My wife was saying that in the future if she needs to vent... that she will take a walk... get it all out... and come back.

A week or so ago she offered that if I didn't want to hear it... .she would find someone else to talk to.

She was wanting me to predict the future and let her know if I would want to hear it or not... .to which I was trying to have her help me understand how I could make a judgement about a conversation I've never heard yet.

Anyway... .I try to notice changes in patterns... .and I've noticed that she is actually describing what she does now... the muttering and ranting... .and being vague about if she is talking to me... or talking to thin air... .as "venting". 

She used to deny she did it... .and now she acknowledges it.

I'm thinking about sticking with Max's thinking... .to tolerate it... .and try to guide it in the right direction... .to try to slowly weed it out.

Thoughts? 

Max... .have you seen the venting behavior change... or patterns of behavior change about the venting?

[maxsterling]

Does  she actually use the term "vent"?  That term has started to be used by my wife.  There was conflict today... .that seemed to have a decent resolution. 

I think that is a term I use with her when I am trying to validate, by suggesting that venting is normal and healthy and that is really what she wants, rather than anger and rage.  I will suggest she find a healthy way to vent rather than place the anger where it doesn't belong (towards me)

My wife was saying that in the future if she needs to vent... that she will take a walk... get it all out... and come back.

I think this is a good thing, and that is where I am trying to gt my wife to go when she is upset.  Take a walk, go shopping, get of of the house rather than sit in a chair and stew over and over until she boils over.  Some success here very recently, but her pattern is not normally to do something constructive.  It's normally very difficult for her to get her to do *anything* on her own.

Anyway... .I try to notice changes in patterns... .and I've noticed that she is actually describing what she does now... the muttering and ranting... .and being vague about if she is talking to me... or talking to thin air... .as "venting". 

Does her explanation help you?  Personally, I would rather not even hear the venting, as it is destructive, too.  My wife will excuse her behavior under the "umbrella" of "i'm in a bad mood".  The other night after a day filled with criticisms of me (her vents), I took one literally.  We were walking into a restaurant and she asked me what she had ordered before.  I told her "I don't know".  She responded with sarcasm, "you are supposed to remember everything I order!"  I responded literally, "I'm sorry, I have too many things of my own to try and remember for me to concentrate on what you order."  Her response was that she was just joking.  BTW, I HATE sarcasm.  HATE it.

Max... .have you seen the venting behavior change... or patterns of behavior change about the venting?

Small, slow changes.  I think she is at least recognizing that I am tired of it.  Usually not until she starts going down that road - but she does catch herself more often now and acknowledging her coping mechanisms are flawed.  Family Christmas on Saturday was a good example.  She wanted to vent about my sister before the event.  And before she got too ugly, she stopped herself saying that she did not want to go down that road, and that it was not good for me to hear it.  She apologized, but 5 minutes later she started again.  After the event, she would occasionally sink back into some kind of negative comments about my family.  I did my best to steer them in a constructive way, and the venting tapered off after a few hours.

[formflier]

Does her explanation help you?  Personally, I would rather not even hear the venting, as it is destructive, too.  

Yes... .they help in that at least we are now talking about the same thing... .and can focus on how to properly cope... .rather than if she said... ."blah blah blah"

Before... .she would try to act like it wasn't said... .never happened... .but then would sometimes want to reference things she "mentioned" to me while venting as I things I should know to do... .because she mentioned it.

Some priceless moments where I calmly "asked for help understanding"... .if she mentioned it and I was supposed to know it... .or if the didn't say it... ."which is it?"

I see it as "forcing a choice... ."... .I didn't enable her to have it both ways... .and I'm thinking she has chosen to acknowledge that she says "troubling things"... .

Max,

So... .when your wife stops herself... .do you validate that?  If she starts up a few minutes later... .does asking her if she changed her mind "recenter her" on her decision. 

Again... .sort of a which is it question... .are you going down that road... .or not... .