I thought I was up to this... I'm not

[Moselle]

Imagine having a spouse with BPD and NPD, and then multiply that by 15. That's what I have going on 10 metres from me in this house. I'm staying for Christmas with my in-laws. The facade is perfect,  but underneath it is festering emotional abuse and dysregulation. How does one stay sane.  I think I'm losing it.

I feel excluded,  shattered,  abused, gaslit,  ignored by my wife. She refuses to come to my family's Christmas lunch, so I'm going alone with the children. My children are loving the madness and beginning to become unresponsive like their mother. They've been taught since young to love the drama and here is plenty for them to consume. 

The Warrior would fight this. Does anyone have advice on how to handle this?

I thought I could bear it. But I can't. It's soul destroying to be here.

Writing this out is helping me accept reality as it is. It's not pretty, but it is very real.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

Merry Christmas, Moselle! 

Embrace the exclusion, that you're not like your wife's family   That you are sane and can recognize dysfunction.  What a gift  

I'm sorry that I don't have any great advice for how to counter this as far as your children being drawn to the drama... .Lead by example is the only thing coming to mind.  Show them through actions that there are other ways to live life.

My dad never said a mean word about my mom.  That's not to say that he didn't counter a lot of her ways with his own.  As an adult, I can look back and say Wow!  What a guy.  What a great DAD!  That he believed in me enough to know that I could and would draw my own conclusions when the time was right.  If I did something that needed a little parental guidance, he was quite poignant in his delivery.  Some of it didn't really become obvious until later in life, with age comes wisdom... .  Instill the golden rules

I sincerely hope you're able to enjoy a peaceful lunch with your family

[Crumbling]

Hi, Moselle.

I'm sorry you feel so alone and shattered on Christmas morning.  Sounds like you and the kids will have an escape from this family soon, tho.  You don't really have to fight it, just live through it without too many scars.  You're not going to change anyone, so take care of yourself and try to stay grounded.  And if it gets too crazy, you can always hid out in the bathroom for a while.    

It's only for a short time.

The positive side I see here is that you are seeing the drama for what it is and aren't getting involved, that's a good strategy.

Anyway, I don't have any real solid advice, I just wanted you to know you are not alone.

It's Christmas morning and my h will likely sleep off his hangover for another three hours or so.  I'm used to being up early, presents, ruckus, bacon frying, egg nog being passed around ----- this isn't a very nice Christmas for me, either, but in a different way.

 , let's just make the best of things and hope they will be over soon.

c.

[Moselle]

Phoebe123,  Crumbling. Merry Christmas to you both!

Thanks for being there. You don't know what lights shines for me, when you send encouragement!.

Crumbling I hope you enjoy the rest of your egg nog :-) and Phoebe you sound like you have a fantastic dad. If my girls would say the same one day, I would be greatly blessed. I have no idea how he managed to NEVER lose it about your mum.  That takes nerves of steel and alot of self control.

Ironically the BPD tide has turned full circle and they are embracing me today and shunning her. What a complete dog show. Push and pull.  It's what made her who she is in the first place. At least I have the awareness to know hats happening.  1 year ago I would have realised something was up, but completely oblivious about what. Thanks BPDFAM! !

[DreamFlyer99]

Moselle,

I really feel for ya!

When I met my uBPDh's family I thought they were really normal--thus showing the depth of my own family's dysfunction! As time went on I started seeing the craziness and the histrionic tendencies of his sister and his mother's absolute disregard for anyone else's feelings. If your desire collided with exactly what she wanted to do for you things were magic, but otherwise look out!

And we lived near his parents while mine were in other states (not only of dysfunction, but of the United States) so guess who we always spent holidays with?

My kids and I developed a pretty off sense of humor about everything, we'd all be amazed by things that happened.

When we "hope" for a great holiday it's just wishful thinking since we have no control, and I used to say on a regular basis, "why can't everybody just play nice one day of the year?"

As you are slow and steady with your kids through the years they will learn from that, and as you help them learn how to see the behaviors of the adults in their lives and not take those on as something to fix or emulate since they're not healthy, they'll grow to count on you and see what makes sense and what doesn't.

Now that my kids are all adults I just apologize on a regular basis for what I didn't know back then! 

I'm relieved on this first Christmas not spent with my uBPDh just wondering at what point he's going to come unraveled. i'm spending it with friends since I saw family over the past few days, and they are spending it together at one daughter's house. I thought I might feel lonely but I don't--I feel in control for the first time in years!

You'll make it through! You seem pretty awesome.   

[Moselle]

Thanks Dreamflyer.  I think you're awesome too.

Glad you're enjoying you downtime. My wife started dyregulating on the 4th of December this year, so I've had a month of this. The last wrote days have been a microcosm of rats for me. Watching the games and manipulation,  watching Moselle go from persona non grata very clearly devalued to one of the valued members in the space of 48 hours. It is bizarre to watch a whole room of people and their collective dysregulations blowing in random directions.

I just watch my wife  reatach to her mother and I love it. I don't seem to exist  and she gives her all the  nonsense

[startrekuser]

Phoebe123,  Crumbling. Merry Christmas to you both!

Thanks for being there. You don't know what lights shines for me, when you send encouragement!.

Crumbling I hope you enjoy the rest of your egg nog :-) and Phoebe you sound like you have a fantastic dad. If my girls would say the same one day, I would be greatly blessed. I have no idea how he managed to NEVER lose it about your mum.  That takes nerves of steel and alot of self control.

Ironically the BPD tide has turned full circle and they are embracing me today and shunning her. What a complete dog show. Push and pull.  It's what made her who she is in the first place. At least I have the awareness to know hats happening.  1 year ago I would have realised something was up, but completely oblivious about what. Thanks BPDFAM! !

Reminds me of my mother-in-law, who lived with us and recently passed away.  One day she would be furious at me for something I did and the next day I helped her with something and I was her hero!  It was funny and sad at the same time.

[startrekuser]

Always lead by example for your kids. I'm happy to say that my daughter is 13 and she sees my wife's dysfunction.  Often, my wife will say or do something ridiculous and my daughter and I will give a quick knowing glance towards each other acknowledging to each other that mommy is going into her "crazy" mode again.  I don't have to say one word and undermine my wife.

[DreamFlyer99]

Your wife changes quickly then, Moselle? I had gotten to the point of never being good enough for my uBPDh, so I seemed to lack value to him for the past 4 years at least. That was no good. I'm glad you occasionally get to be the good guy!

[Moselle]

Hi Dream.  No I'm afraid my W still hates me intensely. Its also been this way for 4 of the last 14 years. Its interesting to note that i dont think she even sees me whilst at her parents house. Its almost like I dont exist to her. I feel free to enjoy my kids without her nonsense.

The family changed its attitude towards me though. I guess a few of them saw the real me this Christmas, and it was consistent witht the old me, not the BPD lies she tells them about me. And they realised I just love my kids and will do anything to be around them.

My wife had tried to force me to leave the children with her and her family over Christmas! She said "My family hates you they don't want you here". I said I WILL be with my children even if I have to sleep in the car at the gate- and I was serious too.

The first day was unbelievaby tense. The mother was calling the shots behind the scenes. No one even spoke to me! But I was there for my children so I didn't care.

Then slowly the attitude changed.

By last night they had set a place for me at the table. They were all talking to me, we were joking around.  And  by the end the mother in law and I we laughing together like old friends.

Crazy making.

Today is a new day. And it's going to be mine.  The Christmas bizarre is over and I will be in control of my day. Not the other way round.  I'm slowly finding me again. But its so hard whilst living with someone who is dedicated to sabotage.  It cant continue this way!

[DreamFlyer99]

Today is a new day. And it's going to be mine.  The Christmas bizarre is over and I will be in control of my day. Not the other way round.  I'm slowly finding me again. But its so hard whilst living with someone who is dedicated to sabotage.  It cant continue this way!

I'm so sorry you're living in that situation of always being the bad guy. I know how difficult that is. Being there for your kids is amazing--I know their sense of self is going to be strong because they have had someone who loves them undeniably and consistently.

I started to see my old self again during the last year or two of still living in the situation, but you're right, that's so hard when the other person doesn't want to see you succeed. When they need you to be in the one-down position so they can feel like they're better it's a constant tug of war.

I did find that working hard on my own boundaries brought things to a head in the relationship, because that was too much for my uBPDh, and he finally acted out in a way that made it clear to me I needed to go. And in your case, perhaps take the kids with you if you have to leave even for a short time.

When we hold our boundaries for how we will be treated (or let our kids be treated) it seems to either cause our partner to ponder life or it causes them to just ramp up the acting out. Either way it seems to make things quite clear to us.

This is awfully hard stuff.

[waverider]

The problem is we try to force a way to have a normal functional traditional xmas and hope we can keep a lid on BPD. Be adaptable as kids can be. Plan to have a good time with your kids, if that means avoiding all the normal trappings and expectations of what xmas should be, so be it.

Xmas does not have to evolve around the traditional xmas get together. If they are drama ridden dont go. Dont play the game of smoke and mirrors, dont cosy up with folks who treat you like dirt simply because they have decided that today they want to play nice.

[Moselle]

Well, my opportunities for self leadership are only increasing :-) Where else can you practice active hostility like in a BPD riddled home with all the in-laws.

That's my opportunity. I stuck to my guns today, all alone, and I won my personal battle against pleasing others.  This is the biggest leadership challenge I have ever had. How do you keep the ship moving when someone is hammering holes in the hull.  The answer -  you just keep bailing water and thank the Lord for the opportunity to develop strong biceps.  LOL.

[DreamFlyer99]

SOO easy for me to fall into the people-pleasing mode! Glad you were able to hold up against it.   

[Moselle]

DF yesterday was mayhem!.  They are trying to trigger me in every way possible. Complete exclusion... .My W has them well enabled as Moselle haters

And it didn't work! I didn't cave. I just keep being more and more myself. Generous, kind me. The me I like.

Today they had their claws withdrawn. I should be able to predict it better. Any kind of interaction with W regarding anything remotely co-operative seems to trigger it. Today was my D12's birthday, and everyone seemed to behave. Tomorrow - all bets are off.

Two interesting observations:

1. She refused to let me use her laptop for work (I foolishly assumed we would only need to bring one on vacation) so I organised one for myself yesterday. When I said to one of my children that I had sorted it out on my own, I saw W visibly shake and give that lost eyes look. She failed in her attempt to control me.

2. I had used a broom and dustpan this morning to clean my separate room, and forgotten that I had taken it. We were all looking for it this afternoon, and she piped up. 'I saw Moselle take it to his room earlier'. This freaked me out a bit because she was no-where near when I took them. She is observing me like a hawk! Observing an opportunity to manipulate, trigger, hurt.

I am finding a new strength and faith in myself. If I can face 15 of them, I can face her on her own

[DreamFlyer99]

Nobody should have to live that way though... .

[waverider]

Remember 3 lines


Their opinions of me are of no concern to me

Their problems are not my problem

I do not need them, they are of no importance to me

[DreamFlyer99]

Remember 3 lines


Their opinions of me are of no concern to me

Their problems are not my problem

I do not need them, they are of no importance to me

Similarly, my T has told me, "Who cares what they think?" and I have actually gone to sleep repeating "who cares? who cares? who cares?" (In my head--I don't want my roommate to call out the men with the nets for me!)

[formflier]

I am finding a new strength and faith in myself. If I can face 15 of them, I can face her on her own

I just had a similar experience... .

I had a funeral for my wife's granny... .and stayed for Christmas. 

The grandma that died exhibited traits... .as does the mom... .and my wife.  Things were "wide open" until the funeral.  Several siblings didn't show up... .it was a nice day... .great funeral (as in nice service)... .no drama... .and then things were normal for 4 or 5 days. 

Being able to observe the drama... .without being part of it... .or being triggered by it... .is a very powerful tool. 

I'm embracing that... .there were times when I thought it best to spend some quiet time to recharge... .and I did so.

Hang in there Moselle... .! 

Are you a fan of old testament stories?  This is like you being "in the furnace" and not getting burned.  Your wife and family now know that the "furnace" doesn't work on you... .

[waverider]

Being able to observe the drama... .without being part of it... .or being triggered by it... .is a very powerful tool. 

I agree its like going back to that scary room full of dark shadows except you have night vision goggles on and there are no longer any shadows, but everyone else except you is still acting as though there are. it is easy to disassociate from it all, and it seems so petty. Strong characters dont appear as strong anymore, you can see they are just blowing more smoke than anyone else

[DreamFlyer99]

I really need to make it to that point of total clarity--I still get tripped up by The Familiar sometimes.

[formflier]

I really need to make it to that point of total clarity--I still get tripped up by The Familiar sometimes.

I'll follow up by saying... .the clarity is about them... .and about us.  I sometimes think that clarity about ourselves is more important.

For instance... .during my Christmas visit there were a couple times I didn't feel as strong... .didn't feel like putting up with it... .things along those lines... .so I made a choice to retire to a bedroom by myself and read... .watch TV... whatever.  Then... .when I felt better... .back to it.

Also to have the awareness of when there is not an easy option to "retire to"... .or if there is a situation where enforcing a boundary (leaving) might not be so easy... .well... in those cases you will need to be "more ready" to handle the situation because you are aware that the options that you "normally" have... .might not be as easy to exercise.

[DreamFlyer99]

Sometimes my instincts serve me well. Thanksgiving I decided I could spend with the family including my uBPDh who I've been separated from for months. My T helped me have a game plan, and I did what I needed to do to be in the same house with my h. Having teen granddaughters makes it easy, I love spending time with them so I would just go off into their rooms and hang out with them and laugh and chat. Basically i'd be wherever my h wasn't. (big enough house for that.)

At Christmas I knew the family would be at our youngest daughter's place and it's quite cute but quite small, and less people would be there to escape to. So I chose to celebrate separately with my grandson and his girlfriend, my youngest daughter and her husband, and my son, and went to a friend's for Christmas day! It was lovely. It's easier when your kids are adults of course, there isn't the pressure for all to be together for the holiday.

I just need to listen to my instincts more readily.

My roommate has something going on, i'm not sure what, but she can be volatile like my h. I have fibromyalgia (cropped up the same time things were getting really out of hand with my h) and with her I have said "I need to go lay down for a bit." The first few weeks I was here she constantly felt threatened by my presence and my trying to fit my things into HER SPACE, and was super volatile. The first time I said I needed to go lay down and she questioned it angrily I answered "I'm just taking care of myself" and she roared "WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?"

I'm moving toward clarity in those choices of self-care.

[Moselle]

I am finding a new strength and faith in myself. If I can face 15 of them, I can face her on her own

I just had a similar experience... .

I had a funeral for my wife's granny... .and stayed for Christmas. 

The grandma that died exhibited traits... .as does the mom... .and my wife.  Things were "wide open" until the funeral.  Several siblings didn't show up... .it was a nice day... .great funeral (as in nice service)... .no drama... .and then things were normal for 4 or 5 days. 

Being able to observe the drama... .without being part of it... .or being triggered by it... .is a very powerful tool. 

I'm embracing that... .there were times when I thought it best to spend some quiet time to recharge... .and I did so.

Hang in there Moselle... .! 

Are you a fan of old testament stories?  This is like you being "in the furnace" and not getting burned.  Your wife and family now know that the "furnace" doesn't work on you... .

Thanks Formflier.  Shadrach,  Meshach and Abednego. Yes, they know that I do not burn. My W said to me. What's it like to be around my family that hate you. I replied. "I'm loving it. I'm with my children and I've had a lot of fun". She said "You see, you are a Narcissist". I gave her that confused look and said "I'm confused, are you saying that you are behaving with Narcissistic traits?" No answer.

Its def fun and games this Christmas.

[formflier]

[ "I'm confused, are you saying that you are behaving with Narcissistic traits?" No answer.

I am using similar tactics with my wife.  Being confused... .because I really am... .and letting them explain.  I keep pressing for answers though... .

When she asks why I press for answers... .I again act confused... say I don't understand... and I'm sure she wouldn't bring something up that she didn't want me to understand... .   

[waverider]

By saying you are confused rather than jumping on an assumption (usually the worse one), helps slow the pace down and can cause them to focus on the real issue... Though sometimes if they on a real rll it can feed the frustration element. At least you are being honest and not contributing to make it worse and potentially going off on a tangent

[startrekuser]

By saying you are confused rather than jumping on an assumption (usually the worse one), helps slow the pace down and can cause them to focus on the real issue... Though sometimes if they on a real rll it can feed the frustration element. At least you are being honest and not contributing to make it worse and potentially going off on a tangent

My wBPD projects her behaviors on to me in a HUGE way.  The things she does to me, she accuses me of doing them to her.  Do you think using this tactic ("I'm confused... ." would work well when she projects like that?  Is that what you are saying here?  Thanks.

[formflier]

Yes... .let them be the one to rephrase and explain... .if you ask questions... be broad... .

But... .at some point... .you may have to just ask... ."help me understand how you know I think that... .if I don't think that... "  one that I use sometimes... .my wife believes she "knows" what I think... .and it usually pisses her off... .

Usually followed up by... ."Sorry you have misinterpreted my actions... .I can see that is frustrating... ."... .and then move along to another subject.

What you don't want to do is "debate"... .that is close to JADE... .and "debates" usually speed things up... .goal is to slow down and be thoughtful.

Be genuine... you really do want to understand how they have arrived at whatever conclusion they have... .

Don't pick at them... .or laugh... .even though the path they followed may be tortuous... .

[startrekuser]

Yes... .let them be the one to rephrase and explain... .if you ask questions... be broad... .

But... .at some point... .you may have to just ask... ."help me understand how you know I think that... .if I don't think that... "  one that I use sometimes... .my wife believes she "knows" what I think... .and it usually pisses her off... .

Usually followed up by... ."Sorry you have misinterpreted my actions... .I can see that is frustrating... ."... .and then move along to another subject.

What you don't want to do is "debate"... .that is close to JADE... .and "debates" usually speed things up... .goal is to slow down and be thoughtful.

Be genuine... you really do want to understand how they have arrived at whatever conclusion they have... .

Don't pick at them... .or laugh... .even though the path they followed may be tortuous... .

Thanks!  This is great advice and I will definitely try this.  My wife also believes she  knows what I think and what other people think.  I'm guessing that it's stems from the fact that their feelings represent reality to them.

[waverider]

By saying you are confused rather than jumping on an assumption (usually the worse one), helps slow the pace down and can cause them to focus on the real issue... Though sometimes if they on a real rll it can feed the frustration element. At least you are being honest and not contributing to make it worse and potentially going off on a tangent

My wBPD projects her behaviors on to me in a HUGE way.  The things she does to me, she accuses me of doing them to her.  Do you think using this tactic ("I'm confused... ." would work well when she projects like that?  Is that what you are saying here?  Thanks.

Often they make impulse statements without putting a lot of thought into them. I call it thinking in headlines with no substance.

By using this method it helps them stay on the subject and think it through.

You are not arguing or debating but inviting them to put more thought into it, whilst showing validating interest in their opinions. Or as I heard once "keeping the train in the station so you have time to get on board, before it races off to the next stop"