What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

[InJourneyThroughOz]

I'm 39 and I am in the process of rebuilding myself.

The only thing I know is my old self is of no use now. I am scared of what will come, but even more scared of remaining the same.

I realized I am a people pleaser when it comes to women, i'm working on changing that, first i'm repeating to myself everyday 'I am completely independant of the good or bad opinions of others' 10 days by now. I has helped.

One thing I felt from an encouter with a woman was that I felt insecure and as a child. I've been talking to my T about 'becoming a man' from time to time, now is the time, but What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

[Perfidy]

IJTO, I'm glad to meet you, I'm a little confused and I apologize. Would you please tell me what you mean? I'm not sure what it means to be a man, would you tell me what it means to you?

[going places]

I will attempt to answer.

If I could sit down and list out all the qualities of a 'man' that I would love to be in a relationship with they would be (in no particular order after #1.)

1. A Believer, and Follower of Jesus Christ.

That right there will set the foundation of the relationship.

2. Leader / Head.

Makes thoughtful decisions. Protects his family. Able to conversate, and come to compromises BUT also has the confidence to put his foot down and stand his ground when he knows the direction he wants to head. Does so with confidence... .

3. Honest / Integrity

He treats others as he would like to be treated, and better BUT knows when to walk away from a toxic relationship with his dignity in tact.

4. Protector

Not possessor, but protector.

If his mother is bashing on his wife... .he, with tact and grace, shuts his mother down, or he removes his family from the situation.

5. Work ethic second to none.

Not a workoholic... .but someone who believes "if the job is worth doing, it's done right, the first time".

NO half-arcing, no excuses, no temper tantrums, no pouting, none of that.

There is a project or job to be done, and it gets done, period. And done right.

I will be back later to add the rest... .but "to me" this are "non negotiables" when defining 'a man'.

[doubleAries]

Well, I'm a woman, so I don't think I can answer that question. But us women go through the same thing, you know... .what does it mean to be a woman?

I guess I gave up that question some time ago and started asking "what does it mean to be an individual? What does it mean to be a person? What does it mean to be an adult?"

I grew up with 3 brothers and no sisters (and a witch BPD mother). I saw my stepdad attempt to teach my brothers what it means to "be a man" and it wasn't pretty. It went something like this: "stop crying like a girl" "you run a like a girl" "you throw a ball like a girl" "now are you going to tell us all about your *feelings* like a little girl would?" "stop acting like a girl".

I think you get the idea. We all learned something from this. I learned that apparently it isn't good to be a girl. Girls are repulsive and less than. Which is how I learned to feel about myself. My brothers learned that a man is whatever a girl/woman is NOT. The "anti-woman" if you will. Which taught them to hate women (and all things they considered to be "womanly"--like flowers, certain colors, cats, etc) even as they were growing up trying to figure out how to have relationships with women. Kind of a set up for failure, eh?

Years ago, I worked as a bartender in this little bar that had a lot of regulars who were all men. Often, the bartender is also a therapist of sorts (LOL). The most frequently asked question I dealt with was "what do women want?" My answer to that question then is exactly the same as it is now--"which woman?"

I guess I'm saying "being a man" (or woman) is pretty vague. Basically it boils down to being a gender. But what I think you are asking is more along the lines of "how do I become someone I respect and like? How do I stop waiting for 'the right person' and start BEING the right person? How do I learn to value myself instead of believing only others outside of myself can say whether I have value or not? how do I stand up for myself in an appropriate manner? How do I find meaning and fulfillment from within instead of looking for it from without? How do I care about, even love my own self? What is a self?"

It occurs to me finally that we don't "find" our self--we create one. Through each and every moment/action/reaction/thought/feeling. We become self aware and decide who we are going to be, what we are going to choose. We even decide how we are going to feel, choosing from the myriad of choices before us.

The idea of being "a man" is subjective. Are you looking for a cultural dictation, or your own personal definition?

[livednlearned]

I'm 39 and I am in the process of rebuilding myself.

The only thing I know is my old self is of no use now. I am scared of what will come, but even more scared of remaining the same.

I realized I am a people pleaser when it comes to women, i'm working on changing that, first i'm repeating to myself everyday 'I am completely independant of the good or bad opinions of others' 10 days by now. I has helped.

One thing I felt from an encouter with a woman was that I felt insecure and as a child. I've been talking to my T about 'becoming a man' from time to time, now is the time, but What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

Hi IJRO,

Your post caught my attention because I had to work through a similar issue when I began dating again. As a kid, I built a false persona that I was strong and invincible, and carried that straight through into my marriage to N/BPDx where it blew up and shattered into a million pieces. When I started dating again, I felt I needed to define what it meant to be a woman as though everything were brand new.

What helped me was to read books about dating and underline or notate parts that spoke to me (this was suggested by my T). Then she and I would talk about the things that I didn't agree with, the things I wanted but never had, the things that made me feel safe but scared, if that makes sense. For example, deep down, I wanted to date a gentlemen. But I had been bullied and abused by uBPD brother and narcissistic father, and had a hard time believing that a good man would find me worthy. So it felt safe to want to date a gentlemen, but I was scared at the same time. Then my T and I discussed what I thought were gentlemen behaviors. Basically, it came down to respect, but also a deep desire that a man would protect me (without being controlling). At the time, I had never dated a man who opened doors for me or pulled out my chair. I dated a lot of men I thought were confident, but turned out to be arrogant, all the way into narcissistic and abusive behaviors.

So all this to say that the pre-dating process is what helped me figure out what it meant for me to be a woman. I focused on the kind of man that would match my values, and then I worked with my T to get there. I remember the first time I dated the man I've been seeing now for 2 years (a gentleman!), he opened the door for me, walked me to my car, offered to pay for my meal, I felt like an impostor. But it was the first time I identified my values and recognized that I wanted to be treated with respect. My BF is enamored with the combination of my strength (surviving a BPD relationships + custody and divorce battle guarantees strength!) and feminine qualities, and I feel the same way about him. He has confidence, but he is also nurturing, and both of us can be vulnerable with each other.

Maybe if you look at some books on relationships and do a similar thing, read what authors have to say and see how things do or don't resonate with you, and talk it through here or with a T. There is no right or wrong answer, so it will be something that you discover for yourself. And of course, whatever you discover will have consequences for you when it comes to finding a partner, both good and bad. The key is to find what is authentically true for you, and then find a woman who is on the same page.

If you do decide to do something like that, the topic might be a good thread for the Building Healthy Relationships board.

[ScotisGone74]

Going places did a tremendous job on laying it out.    I would just like to add that who you are married to may come or go, but your kids will always be the same-yours.   A man is not relenquished of responsibility as a parent/father because a spouse may be nuts unfortunately.    A man does not need the latest sportscar, the biggest house, the most prestigous job,  a man just needs to follow God s word and to provide and protect his family to be truly happy.   

[Blimblam]

A real man doesn't shrivel even if the water is ice cold

A real man can slam dunk on a 10 foot hoop.

A real man is that guy on tv.

Just learn to be you and love you for you.

And don't treat others how you wouldn't want to be treated.

[fromheeltoheal]

A real man is any man who's living true from his core, showing up exactly who he is.  Narcissism, arrogance, vanity, possessiveness, desire to control, those things are false selves presented because they're safer; showing up real and pure is risky and takes courage, but it's also where the real juice is.

And women will test it, to see if he can be trusted.  And every woman a man meets will be partly his mother initially, and whether or not we liked our mother and had an empowering relationship with her will inform all of our relationships with women, as will the relationship we witnessed that our father had with our mother.

Too much crap?  Living from our core is the answer.  I was somewhere between dislike and hate towards my mother growing up, and watched my father get bludgeoned into submission until he finally got pissed off.  They did last 50 years together though, so there must have been some level of bliss, I don't know, they never, ever talked about it.

So what if there are two kinds of women; the ones who bring us up and the ones who bring us down?  It doesn't get any better than showing up from our core as a man, having a woman who brings us up respond to that because she's a woman, inspiring trust in her because we have the courage to act with integrity from that core consistently, so she brings us up even further, which makes us more courageous, which inspires more trust, and on and on.  There's nothing better than inspiring enough trust in a woman that she feels safe, secure and protected so she can let fly with her femininity unrestrained, and the only way to do that is let fly with our masculinity from our core, unrestrained.  There's a massive payoff in having the courage to let go and let fly.

[hergestridge]

A real man is any man who's living true from his core, showing up exactly who he is.  Narcissism, arrogance, vanity, possessiveness, desire to control, those things are false selves presented because they're safer; showing up real and pure is risky and takes courage, but it's also where the real juice is.

What is false about arrogance, possessiveness and desire to control? You mean people are really not like that? Or that real men are not like that?

[fromheeltoheal]

What is false about arrogance, possessiveness and desire to control? You mean people are really not like that? Or that real men are not like that?

Arrogance is a substitute for confidence and possessiveness is a form of desire to control, and all of that is based in and comes out of fear.  And sure, plenty of people live in those modes.  When we live from our core with courage and integrity we exude confidence, not arrogance, and we don't find the need to control anything.  There's a difference between leading and controlling, real men lead while scared men living false selves try and control, to alleviate fear.

I've spent plenty of time in both modes, and maybe the most important thing external to ourselves in keeping us real is who we surround ourselves with.  There is nothing more empowering for a man than to have a woman who trusts him in his life, and the only way to inspire real trust is to live real, which takes courage but is easier when someone who consistently brings us up is a part of that life; it's a snowball thing.  My ex was interesting in that sense; someone who brought me up as high as I'd ever been, followed by someone who brought me down as low as I can go.  Whew!  Bad choice but a great school.

[workinprogress]

Great question, going places!

I have been asking myself that the last few years.  I have been researching this and trying to put it into practice.

I am 47, and I came to a place in my life where I realized that everything that I had been taught to be a man was wrong.

Don't build yourself up on what other people think you need to be.  Don't put on manly traits because you think it will score you more women.

Just be your authentic self.  It takes time to figure out who you really are, and it requires patience.

I've also discovered that my diet has been completely wrong.  Men need fat in their diet, like whole milk, red meat and the like for proper testosterone production.  Also, believe it or not, testosterone is a good thing!  It helps fight depression and disease.  Most diets are catered to women, don't eat like a woman.  No offense ladies, we just require different food.

Make a plan for your life and follow it.  Do what is right for you.

I know I mentioned this book earlier on a different thread, but "Wild at Heart" is an excellent book on being a man and creating an adventurous life for yourself.

This weekend I just started taking my kids on "man trips".  We visited a nature preserve (a swamp) and had quite a great time together.

Feed your soul!

I want to add a little poem on this topic:

www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175772


If—




By  Rudyard Kipling   


(‘Brother Square-Toes’—Rewards and Fairies)

If you can keep your head when all about you   

    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,   

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

    But make allowance for their doubting too;   

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,

Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,

    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:


If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;   

    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;   

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

    And treat those two impostors just the same;   

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken

    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

    And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:


If you can make one heap of all your winnings

    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

    And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

    To serve your turn long after they are gone,   

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

    Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’


If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,   

    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

    If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,   

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,   

    And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Source: A Choice of Kipling's Verse (1943)

[Crumbling]

Here's this woman's perspective:

If you are a man, it means... .

1.  You want to fix everything.  As soon as someone you love is in distress, you immediately wonder what can be done to fix it.  A healthy man will recognize when it's sometimes okay not to fix everything, but it's always the man's tendency to want to fix it.

2.  You have a built in need to put your energy into supporting yourself/those you love.  Without work, most men feel inadequate, which is really hard to accept when you haven't got the ability to work.  But the truth is, I think a man needs to work for his own sanity, in some capacity.

3.  You think about sex often, and often get muddled in the brain when you do.  Normal natural behaviour for men, and healthy men accept this about themselves and learn to make adjustments in their brains to cope with this.

4.  You have a difficult time facing your vulnerability, or admitting to a weakness.  You think it will question your manihood, but the reality is that it only makes you human, and more of a man, if you can face emotions head on - all of them.  I.e. - Live at the core of who you are.

5.  You have a need to be challenged.  Even if you are not a competitive type, you will still have a need to be challenge in some way.  This is a man's way of ' roving' themselves.  The healthy man will challenge himself, not to prove anything to anyone else, but to prove his manhood to himself, as a way of building self-confidence.

6.  You must always leave the toilet seat up.  just kidding... . 

I'm sure I've missed a bunch, but these are definite traits I've witnessed in my step-dad, brother, three husbands, one live-in bf and son, (except for #6.  I've successfully trained my present hubby and my son to not contribute to this 'misrepresention of the male species', and put the d4mn seat down!)   

I believe most of us, male and female, both have issues with wading through the things we were told we were supposed to be and what we feel inside as true.  The bottom line is if there is something that makes you feel like it 'defines' you, and it feels right to be defined in this way, then it's likely a good thing. 

I like what Workinprogress said about testosterone.  When my BPDh asked his doc if they should check his levels, the doc told him it wasn't necessary because they were checked seven years ago... .  Not everyone believes that testosterone can have a big impact on a person's life, but I'm with you, I think it makes a HUGE difference and is important to keep regulated.

 , Cheers to a Brave New Year,

c.

[borderdude]

A man has a strong self, knows what he is, inegrity, and a direction in life.

A woman naturally tests you to see if you .hang toghether. And mantain your direction.

[fromheeltoheal]

Here's this woman's perspective:

If you are a man, it means... .

1.  You want to fix everything.  As soon as someone you love is in distress, you immediately wonder what can be done to fix it.  A healthy man will recognize when it's sometimes okay not to fix everything, but it's always the man's tendency to want to fix it.

2.  You have a built in need to put your energy into supporting yourself/those you love.  Without work, most men feel inadequate, which is really hard to accept when you haven't got the ability to work.  But the truth is, I think a man needs to work for his own sanity, in some capacity.

3.  You think about sex often, and often get muddled in the brain when you do.  Normal natural behaviour for men, and healthy men accept this about themselves and learn to make adjustments in their brains to cope with this.

4.  You have a difficult time facing your vulnerability, or admitting to a weakness.  You think it will question your manihood, but the reality is that it only makes you human, and more of a man, if you can face emotions head on - all of them.  I.e. - Live at the core of who you are.

5.  You have a need to be challenged.  Even if you are not a competitive type, you will still have a need to be challenge in some way.  This is a man's way of 'proving' themselves.  The healthy man will challenge himself, not to prove anything to anyone else, but to prove his manhood to himself, as a way of building self-confidence.

6.  You must always leave the toilet seat up.  just kidding... . 

I'm sure I've missed a bunch, but these are definite traits I've witnessed in my step-dad, brother, three husbands, one live-in bf and son, (except for #6.  I've successfully trained my present hubby and my son to not contribute to this 'misrepresention of the male species', and put the d4mn seat down!)   

I believe most of us, male and female, both have issues with wading through the things we were told we were supposed to be and what we feel inside as true.  The bottom line is if there is something that makes you feel like it 'defines' you, and it feels right to be defined in this way, then it's likely a good thing. 

I like what Workinprogress said about testosterone.  When my BPDh asked his doc if they should check his levels, the doc told him it wasn't necessary because they were checked seven years ago... .  Not everyone believes that testosterone can have a big impact on a person's life, but I'm with you, I think it makes a HUGE difference and is important to keep regulated.

 , Cheers to a Brave New Year,

c.

I agree mostly agree Crumbling, with a couple of tweaks:

It's a lot easier for a man to face his vulnerability and weakness to himself than it is to other people.  Men naturally compete with each other, which is a survival instinct and brings out the best in everyone, but it's not a good idea to show weakness to the competition.  Men will continue to compete against each other until they find a common goal, and then will work with each other very well, at which point expressing weakness to a teammate can be supportive and bonding.

And expressing weakness and vulnerability to a woman can make her doubt his ability to provide and protect, a man's job.  Once he's proven himself reliable to her and can express himself openly without losing her trust, the exchange can make him stronger.

Women think about sex as much as men do, but on a different cycle.

Asians deal with that toilet seat thingy by having everyone just squat over a hole in the floor, which really makes everyone's aim better... .

[Crumbling]

What do you think of this one?

"It only takes believing you have what it takes to be a man, to be one.  If you have never had a father pat you on the back and say, you've got what it takes to be a man, then you are likely unsure of your manhood.  Just trust you have what it takes, and you will be one." ~ Past Unnamed Pastor

[Blimblam]

Remember the guy in those sizzler commercials in the 90s?

He would sharpen a knife on his facial hair stubble.

Or the Marlboro man.

[Lucky Jim]

Keep it simple: Be authentic, rather than pretend to be someone that somebody else (such as your BPD SO) wants you to be.

It sounds easy, but is hard, in a challenging way that I consider good for one's soul.

Lucky Jim

[hergestridge]

Keep it simple: Be authentic, rather than pretend to be someone that somebody else (such as your BPD SO) wants you to be.

I couldn't agree more, but I really think that if you are one big p*ssy then please continue to be that too. I think the whole discussion of what a man should be like is moralistic and pointless. If some aspect of yourself really bothers you, see if you can change it. Otherwise, let it be.

[BuildingFromScratch]

The exact same thing it means to be a woman. Hormones and your natural expression of your sexuality will cause you to sort out the rest and find a suitable person. Build a spiritual foundation and build confidence in your own heart and you will fulfill yourself and not even need to worry about defining yourself as a man. Society right now is overly ego and sexuality driven... .not knocking those things, but they seem way more important than they actually are.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hormones and your natural expression of your sexuality will cause you to sort out the rest and find a suitable person.

The last time I did that I ended up with a borderline.

Build a spiritual foundation and build confidence in your own heart and you will fulfill yourself and not even need to worry about defining yourself as a man.

Oh yeah, guess I needed that part too.  Live and learn... .

[Trog]

I personally have never understood this concept of being a man or a woman, anymore than being an oap or a teenager. Surely we are all just ourselves and attempting to be anything or any set of values that society defines is going to be inauthentic and hard work?

I have a very clear idea of how I should behave but I don't like the things that would call on me to do. Guys have a real bum deal with all the chair pulling out and paying for meals and expecting to be ready to perform in 2 mins flat. Nobody wins with this. Who you authentically are is who you are, that may involve carrying the heavy things as you have the muscles, it may involve doing the cooking cos you enjoy that. Gender roles add heavy to the worlds painbody imo.

I neither feel like nor act like a man or a woman, not on purpose anyway.

[Trog]

A woman naturally tests you to see if you .hang toghether. And mantain your direction.

So a woman's role in life is to test men! Wow!

Then, women have nothing better to do than going around testing you! If that's your expectation of what a woman is and does you are going to find those women. We have both found at least one of them but I have known enough women to know that they can offer far more than this.

[AnnaK]

A Real Man accepts and knows that he is a Man. Regardless of anything. That's the only requirement.

He is aware how males are different from females, he has investigated his mind and body and acknowledged that he has male body and mind.

He does not have any illusions that he might become female just from "acting like a girl".

Just like one does not become a goat just because one "acts like a goat"

If he cries - he is still a man.

If he laughs - he is still a man.

If he screams when immersed in cold water - he still has no doubt he is a man.

Even if he makes a mistake, behaves like a little girl or beats a woman - he is totally, absolutely sure he is a man.

-----

I am female. I know I am female. I know that it means slightly different brain wiring (females are more emotional, more capable of multi-tasking and they feel less pain due to the need to give birth), certain hormonal cycles, body shape, body hair growth pattern etc.

I have acknowledged those differences in myself and proven myself long ago that I am female, I have accepted being female and I have learned to live with it.

However, occasionally I put on my Big Boy Pants and behave like a man. When playing soccer with boys. When working with those same boys in the office.

When doing martial arts. Sometimes it happens in family.

Yet I am perfectly aware that I am NOT a man. Whenever I take on the male role model - it is always, always a simulation, sometimes a good one, but simulation nonetheless. It's the same like the actor playing a public figure in the movie does not BECOME that guy. He just PLAYS that guy.

[fromheeltoheal]

A woman naturally tests you to see if you .hang toghether. And mantain your direction.

So a woman's role in life is to test men! Wow!

Then, women have nothing better to do than going around testing you! If that's your expectation of what a woman is and does you are going to find those women. We have both found at least one of them but I have known enough women to know that they can offer far more than this.

No, it's not a woman's role, it's an evolutionary necessity.  The questions that women needed to ask to survive are "is he going to protect me?" and "is he going to stick around once the kids are born?"  We forget that "modern life" is a speck in time, and for most of human history women needed men around for protection, from the saber tooth tiger who saw her as dinner or from the Neanderthal who saw her as a chance to get laid.  And of course if she had kids she needed protection and food for them too, and there's no way she would survive on her own, so the guy who was willing to stick around and help was a keeper.  That may sound sexist and it wasn't as isolated as that, humans lived in tribes with many men, women and kids, but that's the way it was.

It's not so life threatening today, at least in developed countries, but think about how many single mothers there are; those are women who's men left, or there never was one beyond the conception, and it is very difficult to be a single mother.

Bottom line, men bullsht women to get laid and to continue to get laid, so she will test him to see of he's really going to provide, protect and stick around, or if he's just bullshtting.  It's an evolutionary thing and the way to navigate it is for him to pass the tests, if wants to hang around, and a woman who trusts her man is awesome to be around.

[fromheeltoheal]

I am female. I know I am female. I know that it means slightly different... .body shape.

And thank god for that; women are the most beautiful things on the planet, one man's opinion, and by "things" I am not objectifying, I'm talking about shape, reflected light and visual stimulus.  So don't beat me up.

However, occasionally I put on my Big Boy Pants and behave like a man. When playing soccer with boys. When working with those same boys in the office.

When doing martial arts. Sometimes it happens in family.

Yet I am perfectly aware that I am NOT a man. Whenever I take on the male role model - it is always, always a simulation, sometimes a good one, but simulation nonetheless. It's the same like the actor playing a public figure in the movie does not BECOME that guy. He just PLAYS that guy.

I'd add to that a little by saying there's a difference between male and female and masculine and feminine.  We all have both energies, most men favor their masculine energy and most women their feminine, although we all know 'effeminate' men and 'ball breaker' women, plus we each have both modes, as you say Anna when you put on your Big Boy Pants; I say it's not a simulation or acting, it's you favoring the other energy for a while, and it is a part of you.

[Trog]

A woman naturally tests you to see if you .hang toghether. And mantain your direction.

So a woman's role in life is to test men! Wow!

Then, women have nothing better to do than going around testing you! If that's your expectation of what a woman is and does you are going to find those women. We have both found at least one of them but I have known enough women to know that they can offer far more than this.

No, it's not a woman's role, it's an evolutionary necessity.  The questions that women needed to ask to survive are "is he going to protect me?" and "is he going to stick around once the kids are born?"  We forget that "modern life" is a speck in time, and for most of human history women needed men around for protection, from the saber tooth tiger who saw her as dinner or from the Neanderthal who saw her as a chance to get laid.  And of course if she had kids she needed protection and food for them too, and there's no way she would survive on her own, so the guy who was willing to stick around and help was a keeper.  That may sound sexist and it wasn't as isolated as that, humans lived in tribes with many men, women and kids, but that's the way it was.

It's not so life threatening today, at least in developed countries, but think about how many single mothers there are; those are women who's men left, or there never was one beyond the conception, and it is very difficult to be a single mother.

Bottom line, men bullsht women to get laid and to continue to get laid, so she will test him to see of he's really going to provide, protect and stick around, or if he's just bullshtting.  It's an evolutionary thing and the way to navigate it is for him to pass the tests, if wants to hang around, and a woman who trusts her man is awesome to be around.

Wow. This is not my experience at all. Some men may do things like that and some women may behave in certain ways but I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves. As I stated I don't have a strong sense of any gender but I have a strong sense of myself and right and wrong. It's an interesting topic!

[fromheeltoheal]

I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves.

And where do you think that society pressure comes from?  Human nature, or specifically the nature of humans who are descendants of humans who saw the value in male/female bonding for the purpose of raising more humans; the ones who didn't see that value died out.

[Trog]

I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves.

And where do you think that society pressure comes from?  Human nature, or specifically the nature of humans who are descendants of humans who saw the value in male/female bonding for the purpose of raising more humans; the ones who didn't see that value died out.

Do you still wash your clothes in the stream? Society needs to evolve the way men have treated women for the past two thousand years is a disgrace, millions of women burnt up as witches, physical abuse, the list goes on and on. Just because something was Doesnt mean we should encourage it as something to hang onto today. Males under pressure to be men causes fights, suicide and even wars, it's nothing to strive for.

And where do I think it comes from? A desire to maintain a hierarchy that keeps almost everyone enslaved. I think it comes from ego.

[fromheeltoheal]

I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves.

And where do you think that society pressure comes from?  Human nature, or specifically the nature of humans who are descendants of humans who saw the value in male/female bonding for the purpose of raising more humans; the ones who didn't see that value died out.

Do you still wash your clothes in the stream? Society needs to evolve the way men have treated women for the past two thousand years is a disgrace, millions of women burnt up as witches, physical abuse, the list goes on and on. Just because something was Doesnt mean we should encourage it as something to hang onto today. Males under pressure to be men causes fights, suicide and even wars, it's nothing to strive for.

And where do I think it comes from? A desire to maintain a hierarchy that keeps almost everyone enslaved. I think it comes from ego.

Society is evolving.  Primates have been around for 55 million years; 2000 years is a drop in the bucket.  Change happens very slowly in evolutionary time.  And "clothes" as we know them didn't show up until folks started farming cotton, which was only 10,000 years ago, a slightly bigger drop in the bucket.

[Trog]

I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves.

And where do you think that society pressure comes from?  Human nature, or specifically the nature of humans who are descendants of humans who saw the value in male/female bonding for the purpose of raising more humans; the ones who didn't see that value died out.

Do you still wash your clothes in the stream? Society needs to evolve the way men have treated women for the past two thousand years is a disgrace, millions of women burnt up as witches, physical abuse, the list goes on and on. Just because something was Doesnt mean we should encourage it as something to hang onto today. Males under pressure to be men causes fights, suicide and even wars, it's nothing to strive for.

And where do I think it comes from? A desire to maintain a hierarchy that keeps almost everyone enslaved. I think it comes from ego.

Society is evolving.  Primates have been around for 55 million years; 2000 years is a drop in the bucket.  Change happens very slowly in evolutionary time.

And yet we can change ourselves in the blink of an eye. That's the beauty of this life, short as it is, we go around constructing life every second of the day. For sure I have to live in a world that is at is, but I personally won't be contributing to laying down a set of rules that any group of people should adhear to for the benefit of another group, things are hard enough without adding to the pressure of behavioural norms. Apart from not killing and being respectful and conscious of course! We all oughta do that... thou I know a group of people that don't! They won't be making my world anymore either.