We had a physical fight

[AnnaK]

Well, the surreal thing happened.

We had a fight one day before my leaving, and to spite me, my uBPDbf brought home the same girlfriend he already brought once to our common house (that first time I reacted calmly, just explained him he should not do it)

But this time I snapped and started slapping him on the cheeks, screaming "I told you not to bring them home!", eventually we rolled on the bed, I wanted a fight so i did not keep him out of range (we are both boxers, so physical fight is not entirely illegal, although being careful is essential) . So obviously he got angry and punched me once in the face (no issues, just a bruise), then I took control of the situation and grabbed him on the neck. He had to stop punching me, because I was strangling him - so he let me go (the punch cooled me down a bit, so I did not insist to continue).

We did not fight more (seems like we were both apprehensive after this), but I kept irritating everyone for the rest of the night, not giving them privacy and creating embarrassing situations (such as, I started dancing and singing loudly to my iPhone in front of them - I have a terrible musical taste, so it was just open aggression).

I tried to suggest that either he or the girl has to leave - but he girl refused to leave (seems like she believed I would beat him more if he gets drunk - it's not true, we did training fights many times, we are boxers, so we did not really try to kill each other, just released some emotions)

He also refused to leave out of being stubborn. And I could not leave - I had to pack and catch my flight next day.

So there we were.

Eventually I declared that in my house I am going to follow them like a shadow, so we ended up sleeping all three in the same room.

Now he is very offended because I humiliated and embarrassed him in front of his "other" girlfriend, but I insist, that in this case, I was the humiliated side to begin with, so I can't really take the blame. And he seems to find it hard to take any blame.

He tried to play victim and claim I beat him up, but I sent him a picture of my bruise from his punch - and he does not have a single scratch - I was gentle, just making a show.

Any opinions what now? I also seem to find it hard to take the blame, if any. I am human - I was plain shaking from jealousy and anger, and I could not even go outside, because I had to pack... .what else should I have done?

PS: right after the events, he came very unhappy, and asked me what next. I said I'll reconcile in some time. He kept fighting with the other girl all night long (when I was not there), and then when he woke up now sober they kept fighting even worse. After I said I'd reconcile, he literally removed the crying girl from the house (he drove her home), she was emotionally devastated from his emotional games (same as he uses on me) and even forgot half her things in our house (they came back and picked up the things). But now that I am back to Spain, he turned stubborn, tried to give me silent treatment, it did not work, so now he is just saying that he does not want to talk to me.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[AnnaK]

I dont even know, maybe I should not have posted it. I guess now I will have to take some scolding too.

Also it may be outside the topic of  BPD forum discussion

Just remove it, if so.

In general, i am not very much bothered, I think I did what I should have done to stand for myself. I am ready to forget and make peace and so that everyone would be friends (and I already made peace with the other girl).

But he cant get over the beating i gave him. But it was pointless to talk, we have already talked of it, and he seemed ashamed and very unhappy, and now he did it again... .I had to do something more radical than talking for the information to sink - otherwise he was taking it as if I would be ready to always take the pain and forgive him.

PS Just to make this point again. We are BOTH boxers, and we did training fights, and thus, violence as such is NOT entirely illegal. Do not advice me to run please. I get worse in the gym than this little encounter on the regular basis.

Moreover, I am physically capable to fight him as equal. Moreover, as there was no blood or broken teeth, I assume, BOTH of us were very careful. So "domestic violence" is not really the point.

[vortex of confusion]

I've been where you were when this happened. The anger, the rage, the jealousy, and all of those intense emotions come to a head. I got physical with my husband once. At the time it happened, I felt very justified in doing it. He lied to me. He got up in my face and screamed at me and told me to hit him.

Now that I have a lot of distance between me and the incident, I can see that I shouldn't have done it. I let myself get out of control. It doesn't matter if you are a boxer or weren't trying to hurt him. The truth is that you were physical and were beating each other up. Ask yourself if that is what you want out of life?

How do you feel when you get out of control like that? You said that you couldn't leave and didn't have any other options. To me, the whole situation sounds like a power trip between you and your partner and girlfriend. All of you had agendas and seemed hell bent on furthering your own agenda. I am not judging you. I have been there and done that. I have been a horrible pain in the butt at times because I wanted to be right. I wanted to prove something to someone (me, him, the world, anybody that would listen). Now, I don't care as much. I just want peace. To get that peace, there are times when I walk away or let things go.

Figure out what you want and what you can live with and go for it. However, physical violence in a relationship is something that should never be acceptable. There are other ways to get your point across.

[AnnaK]

Well, honestly?

Well, you ask a boxer if I enjoy fight? Yes, I enjoy a good fight, provided everybody is reasonably careful. I would like to have a good fight like about 4 times a week, unfortunately, he has a recently broken rib (almost healed) and other injuries from the car accident.

When living alone in Spain I do have a good fight in my gym as often as I can.

Moreover, it seemed to me that we BOTH enjoyed some messing around.

Well, I had few options indeed. The other option was to take the pain, let them have their intimacy and somehow ride it out.

I did it 2 months ago. I was extremely happy I did not have to do it again.  

No, I did not have an option of letting go. Even if I made a decision to let go right now, it would take months to implement.

And acute jealousy is, unfortunately, an instinct. You CANT reason it away. It is impossible, at least while the other lady is in the house.

I did not want to be right. I just wanted to take out the pain at someone fit enough to accept it. Luckily, he was right there and he was fit enough and he deserved it. As a side goal, I wanted to check the block I recently learned. And I really wanted him to learn that two girls in the same house is an extremely ugly layout - it literally leads to a fight.

Yes, after having a physical fight I felt much, much better. The pain stopped. I was almost calm again, and I could sleep.

I don't think I was out of control exactly. Or more like, I am not sure. I did not feel out of control. I felt my mind was going on overdrive creating a trap for him: beat or get beaten. In front of the other girl. Whatever you do, you get in trouble. I am not sure why and how I came to that idea. But it was a trap. I felt I could not HURT him - physically could not, I have some "stopper" in my mind that just does not let me to, say, break his lip. When time came to make that "elbow in the face" move, I stopped, because he was not able to block. Never once I tried to hurt him in the area of broken rib or other sensitive zones.

I am afraid, to some point, it was almost a show.

[AnnaK]

Honestly, I found it one of the best ways to get my point across, given the situation.

In just about 3-5 minutes of combat, it was crystal clear to everyone, why a man should never bring two women into the same house.

It can only work out if both women agree to absorb the pain (the other girl was also quite shy). If at least one woman resents, it becomes a nightmare.

Moreover, even if he now refuses to admit, that the whole situation was of his own creation, what do I lose? If he is not capable of understanding why he should not be intimate with another woman right in front of me, I see no way to retain my sanity, so I will have to quit.

[vortex of confusion]

If you like physical aggression and want to fight, keep it at the gym.

Your partner may have been a willing participant in the fight because you gave him no choice. If he wants to meet with you at the gym and box with you, so be it. Ambushing him like that to prove your point is not okay.

No, you cannot reason away acute jealousy. But, you can certainly choose how you react to that jealousy.

What is your reason for posting your story? What is it that you are seeking?

Do you think it is healthy to want to inflict your pain on others? Does anybody really deserve to be attacked or ambushed? If you were to explain yourself in a court of law, would a judge or anybody else accept the reasoning "he was right there and he was fit enough and he deserved it." That kind of reasoning has domestic abuse written all over it. How many abusers use this kind of reasoning to justify physical violence towards a partner? I think it is crap. No matter what kind of justification you use, it is not okay to ambush another human being unless the other person has given prior consent. I am not saying that you are an abuser but I do think it might be helpful for you to think carefully about these types of things.

I don't think I was out of control exactly. Or more like, I am not sure. I did not feel out of control. I felt my mind was going on overdrive creating a trap for him: beat or get beaten. In front of the other girl. Whatever you do, you get in trouble. I am not sure why and how I came to that idea. But it was a trap. I felt I could not HURT him - physically could not, I have some "stopper" in my mind that just does not let me to, say, break his lip. When time came to make that "elbow in the face" move, I stopped, because he was not able to block. Never once I tried to hurt him in the area of broken rib or other sensitive zones.

No matter how you try to justify it, it is not okay to attack somebody that hasn't given prior consent. It doesn't matter whether or not you hurt him or intended to hurt him. The fact of the matter is that you instigated a physical altercation. You can try to justify it however you want. I don't think that it is okay.

Moreover, even if he now refuses to admit, that the whole situation was of his own creation, what do I lose? If he is not capable of understanding why he should not be intimate with another woman right in front of me, I see no way to retain my sanity, so I will have to quit.

If he is doing things that you don't like, set a boundary and do not use physical force to enforce your boundaries. If he cannot respect your boundary of not wanting to see him with another woman in front of you, then walk away from the relationship. You could have left that evening. You could have stayed in another room. Heck, if you asked her to leave and she wouldn't, would it have been possible to ask for assistance from the police or somebody else to get her to leave. Was it your house, your partner's house, or was it a jointly owned/rented house? If it was his house, then it would have been your place to leave (from a legal stand point). If it was YOUR house or a jointly owned place, then you had ever right to ask her to leave. Sometimes, it helps to take a step back and look at things from a practical stand point.

[AnnaK]

Well, honestly I have no way to answer this.

Looks like I have to leave this relationship, end of story.

[AnnaK]

I understand that what I have done is bordering to the definition of battery and physical abuse.

It is very easy to say - you could have left. But where? How? I was alone, in the middle of India, it was late night. I was not sure I would manage to pack thoroughly and to find a room in the hotel (which hotel?) that late at night. I had the flight next day.

If I were to forget something important (example: my laptop or my hard drive) in India, I would have lost my job.

I have no illusions - with his abandonment fears, if I were to leave like this, I would have never gotten back whatever I would have forgotten.

The flat contract is on his name, but I was paying the rent during last 11 months. In cash. But I have no proof of it on paper. You don't really fix on paper such arrangements. That is, not to mention that we did not want to involve police.

It is easy to say "set the boundary", but HOW? Leaving before my return flight (buying a flight to Europe) would cost me half my salary - I can't really leave on a whim. And I can't leave repeatedly, according to his promises. He is notorious in giving false promises.

My only way out is to make it extremely uncomfortable for him to ambush me this way - using another girl. Perhaps I could have done it in a non-violent way, but it happened unexpectedly and I could not think.

Honestly, acting hysterical is a NATURAL reaction in this situation. 

Right now, okay, I left, I am back to Spain. Perhaps, I can just end it here.

[AnnaK]

And one more thing.

I have been bullied for about 8 years when I was in school.

I have learned that with bullies, it is better to have the reputation of the insane who throws herself into a fight at the slightest provocation than to try to "tough it out", to "be smarter", to "not pay attention", to "solve it verbally" etc. etc.

All that I tried during my school years. It does not help.

[123Phoebe]

So "domestic violence" is not really the point.

Huh, what is? 

[AnnaK]

That's over.

This was the first time I ever beat anyone, so I ended the relationship.

I am 37 years old. If I never beat anyone since I was 8, this is for a reason.

But I know I will do it again in the similar circumstances.

And what can I say? "Bringing another girlfriend home is wrong, please don't do it because it hurts" ?

He knows it hurts. He did it precisely to hurt me. And if he hurts me again, i am sure I will lash out in the exact same way.

Better end it before I become a real abuser.

PS : For all the righteous here. Victims of the abuse sometimes snap and lash out and even kill their abusers. And they get to prison for that. That does not make them abusers. I am unfortunately a victim, not an abuser. This is not the first time he is trying to cause me pain. The only reason why he does not batter me, is because once he tried and FAILED - I used Muay Thai kicks to keep his punches away from my face... .nobody got hurt that day, but since then he is not trying to hit me, he only hits me "emotionally". Like the case I described.

He also tried to badmouth my relatives ("your mother is a prostitute!", again he got slapped for that (after a polite warning to please stop, and I only slapped him once that day - that was the first time I lashed out at him), and since then he is verbally polite to me. But he is intelligent and he just started to use more refined tools

[AnnaK]

So "domestic violence" is not really the point.

Huh, what is?  

I usually don't beat people (I was in other relationships, it never ever happened that I would lash out), so I was trying to make sense of it.

Yes, now I see it clearly. It's the case of the counter-violence, when the victim lashes back at the abuser.

[sweetheart]

Hello AnnaK,

I read your post yesterday and was really shocked by what had happened. I am sorry that you have been subjected to abusive behaviour from your bf in the form of him bringing another woman into the house.

If you believe that you just snapped and lashed out at him this of course can and does happen to people on the receiving end of sustained abuse. Many members of these forums have written about that here. However that is not how your post read, what you described in your post was that the fight was a choice you made in wanting to act out your anger and upset and cause hurt to your bf. This is held up in your ability to withhold certain punches and holds and think about how you might cause him minimal damage and not leave any physical marks on him. If you had just snapped this type of controlled fighting on your part would not have been possible.

I have read your previous posts and it is clear to me that you have been expressing how you feel through physical violence albeit controlled. Like Vortex of Confusion said fighting/martial arts should be kept in the gym. Your posts read as abusive towards your bf whatever your reasons and your actions. If he had chosen to report your assault to the police and press charges you could have ended up being prosecuted.

If the relationship you are/were in with your bf is causing you to feel and act in this way then the most positive and safest thing you can do is take time away from this relationship and get some support to explore what has been happening emotionally for you.

I just want to end by saying as someone who is trained in martial arts you must be aware that the underlying philosophy is not to use your fighting skills in the way that you have chosen to. It is a disciplined, specialist art form which teaches certain fundamental principles for its use outside training schools.

[AnnaK]

I was not using my fighting skills except to protect myself when it came to real fight. Even so, he gave me a punch, from which I had a bruise. I did not pay much attention at it, but now I realise, that he did not really have to do it.

I was not thinking about "not leaving marks on him", I was just slapping him (slaps don't do any harm - not that bad I was slapping), but at some moment I realised that I WANT to hurt him more (that's why I think that I really lashed out), but I CANT hurt him, that is, not technically... .technically I am perfectly capable... .but I tried, but my body refused to obey me. I could not gather the force necessary even to leave a bruise on him.

Please note, that in our sparing boxing fights (those by mutual consent of course), I once broke his lip - using gloves - so I DO HAVE THE POWER AND THE SKILL.

But I have a psychological block against hurting people. It's not about the marks. I knew my body would not obey me if I try to cause him any pain. So it was only slaps and self-defence later when he got to punching me.

I also could not kick him in the stomach to maintain safe distance, because he has a barely healed broken rib... .it would hurt him. Again, my body refused to obey me.  

In fact, I've taken his punch on my face (I had a bruise from it for about a week), because the block I was using included a movement "elbow in the face", and he did not know this movement, so he did not block it, and he was just staring at me, not understanding - so I thought - and now what? am I going to hit him elbow in the face? This defenceless? And I could not.

I got confused in the technique and took his punch on myself instead. Then I thought "oops, he's gonna punch me again", so I had to choke him so that he backs off. Again, he did not suffer any pain, not that bad I was chocking, but he understood, that he can't punch me more - it's time to let me go. He was punching me lying on top of me in "dominant position", after we rolled on the bed.


PS: this - him bringing another woman on me - happened the second time. The first case I thought it must be a mistake - nobody does it! - so I toughed it out, trying to remove myself from the scene. I told him not to bring the girls home - it really creates an ugly situation and it hurts. So this time he knew exactly what he was doing. No chance of a mistake. Even the girl did not want to see him anymore (we talked with the girl), but he came there without no warning, told a mountain of lies to her (we talked with her after this case too) - so she believed him and came.

[AnnaK]

This is why I doubt I was really in controlled state of mind, because when I am in controlled state of mind (such as - in the ring), I am perfectly capable to break someone's lip.

But inside I am just that kinda mouse, that I am afraid to hurt people, I have a subconscious block against it... .so I was not really in controlled state of mind - I knew the technique, but my body refused to obey me. It was not about marks. I just could not cause him any substantial pain (such as break his lip or punch him to leave a bruise on him)

I knew the movement, I knew the effort, I knew how to use my body... .but my arms felt weak even when I was thinking of it. That surprised me, but there was nothing much I could do about it.

Thinking of it, partially, I think I was trying to PROVOKE HIM INTO A FIGHT, so that I could take the pain and get rid of "fight-or-flight" state I was in... .and "flight" was impossible due to my departure next day.

I could not beat him because of the mental block - so I wanted to take the beating on myself, if this can be called "logical". That would give me the exercise and release of the inside pain.

PS: even now, as I recall the situation, I understand that indeed I would not manage to deliver, say, a bare handed right cross to his jaw. I feel literally sick at the very idea.

[AnnaK]

In fact, I feel ridiculously unhappy that I am such a mouse and how my skills deteriorated to bare slaps and self-defence in uncontrolled situation. I probably need more training (anyone wants to fight bare handed to bruises?)

He, of course, he is only blaming me in "hitting him"... .although it seems like he stopped after I sent him the picture of the bruise.

Now he is not blaming me in anything, just said he does not want to talk to me and suggested me to "leave him" - so I simply agreed.

Somehow currently I also don't feel like talking to him.

However I doubt it would be that simple.

I suspect he is feeling more than a little guilty, but as he suffered quite a humiliation from the girl beating him in front of another girl (what a surprise), not to mention that he really did give me a bruise... .he can't really sort it out.

[AnnaK]

So it's not my ability to withhold punches... .it was unfortunately (or fortunately?) my inability to deliver punches.

The other way around it is.

If I had the choice, I probably would not withhold it, but my body refused to obey.

PS: I have always been a big child, and I am a big girl, 173cm/75kg, and I fight with boys in gym... .but even a little bully kid could safely harass me, because I was afraid to do something to hurt those little bullies :-/

[SlyQQ]

It seems like the boxing is a good outlet the main complications are you " beating him " has probably really hurt his ego this may manifest into a major problem everyone handles there relationship problems in different ways you are on the edge though ( i have done some boxes an can pull my punches i doubt someone with BPD is nessacarily safe to do this with an it only takes one lucky punch with out protection to flatten you if he happens to be raging this is not neccasarily safe but it is your life an your relationship you obviously enjoy the adrenilin?

[AnnaK]

Yes, thank you, I do enjoy the adrenaline. A lot. It takes about 4-5 days of sparrings in the gym to take me out of "get me more of it" mood.

Yes, it badly hurt his ego. Girl N 1 has beaten him in front of Girl N 2. And... .it's India. He kinda unconsciously believes in the superiority over girls by birth right.

But I doubt i had to take care of his self-image given the... .errr... .situation.

I know it's kinda unsafe as if he gets in uncontrolled rage, he'd probably smash me... .well, so far it never happened. I am aware it takes only one punch, so I usually keep him off distance with muay thai kicks (he is a pure boxer, does not know how to block kicks, elbows and the like)

[AnnaK]

Honestly, I don't know what to do. For now we broke up.

He did not give his reasons (although they are obvious), and I somehow don't feel like taking the blame on myself.

Besides, if abuse takes the anger out of me, that's of course, good for me (I have my anger blocked out, so becoming a little angrier is good for me), but I may end up becoming excessively angry, do some serious damage and end up having charges pressed on me.

I have very little real-life fighting experience, so I have problems picking up "safe" zones to deliver real-life punches (I assure you, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison). I am learning from him though - he does have a lot of real life fighting experience (he used to be a teenager with "punching problem" - that is, he'd punch people out of anger - by the age of 35 he kinda learned HOW to punch to avoid serious problems).


I feel, however, that this relationship is unique because it assists in my personal growth. We are both playing out the bully-victim situations, however, he used to be the bully in school... .and I am, the victim. It helps me understand what I went through as a child (8 years of being bullied... .but those guys are all dead from criminal activities now)

As a child, and later, I could never understand what makes a person hurt another person. Now through the "love lense", and using the empathy, I see it much better.

[SlyQQ]

Well you are learning hopefully you can close the page an move on you obviously have some represssed anger to work through but sounds like you are doing fine dont let him bring you down people with BPD CAN BE VERY CANNY IN WAYS YOU DONT EVEN SUSPECT so keep your gaurd up an lead with your left

[AnnaK]

people with BPD CAN BE VERY CANNY IN WAYS YOU DONT EVEN SUSPECT

you " beating him " has probably really hurt  his ego

this may manifest into a major problem

Sly, can you expand on this please?

I would like to know what kind of a problem I should expect from a BPD male (or just a male, raised in a non-equal system like indian)

Of course, we may just breakup. Me in Spain, him in India, he won't be able to reach me.

But what if he reappears, like he usually did before and we reconcile? What kind of a problem may emerge?

----

Right now ironically the "worst" has already happened - we pretty much broke up yesterday night. But with BPD it's never like you break up forever. It's more like you break up for two weeks, two months, sometimes two years... .I wonder what will happen this time.

Will he get over it? Will he try to reconcile, then take revenge on me?

Me, I am doing well enough, all this have only empowered me to work on my self-esteem and other issues (including repressed anger), I got better at identifying and clearing out my emotions (they used to go somatic), I got motivation to train in the gym etc.

Me, I am as usual "... .and let's everybody be friends" (including the rival girl!), so although I declared walking out, I would not even mind to reconcile, given the opportunity.

------

Right now it feels like obviously his ego is badly hurt, but as he created the situation all on his own, he can't really claim that I should protect his ego in front of the girl with whom he was... .pretty much cheating on me. Crazy he is not.

[AnnaK]

He remembers the past "offences" I supposedly commited on him for years (including saying "hi" to his brother in Facebook and slapping him for saying things about my mother), but he never tried to take revenge on me for those. He does understand the concept of being fair.

PS: I don't currently want to move on anywhere. I am quite sick of relationships in general, except some very particular ones like this one.

I'd rather do some boxing instead. So I am not really moving on anywhere... .for a while, and unless I find a really-really interesting man. I am not supposed to obligatorily be in a relationship in any given moment, am I?

PPS: I am always remembering that joke. Psychiatrist is getting married and tells to collegue: "Ah, yes, of course, she is ugly, troublesome, awful mother and housekeeper, she does not earn anything... .but if only you knew, how interesting are her nightmares!"

[SlyQQ]

It is a hard call from here they can literally do anything

from framing you to defaming you an more but if he is from a criminal background that might be hard

or he could just forget about you completely until it suits him it then move in on a new relationship when you least want it depends on his head space

regard him as an oppomnent ( which it seems you already do) an dont underestimate him Basically what i am saying is people with BPD dont fight fair

[AnnaK]

It is a hard call from here they can literally do anything

from framing you to defaming you an more

but if he is from a criminal background that might be hard

or he could just forget about you completely until it suits him it

then move in on a new relationship when you least want it depends on his head space

regard him as an opponent ( which it seems you already do)  an dont underestimate him

Basically what i am saying is people with BPD dont fight fair

No, no criminal background.

framing/defaming is probable. I am already being framed/defamed like a "foreign girl who makes his mind against family and prevents him from getting married to a good indian girl inside his caste". The "rival" girl to whom I talked, has reproached me in those sins.

Although I met him when he was complaining that he can't live with family and can't find a girl to marry (both things because of his drinking). Well, I found him a place to live outside family (I paid his rent), and suggested as an option to marry me if he wants.

He is still afraid though to marry me, although family does not seem to mind

Forgetting/recycling is probable.

Moving on a new relationship... .yeah, I keep this in mind. Last time we recycled he did pull me out of a relationship, but I was going insane from boredom in it anyway. It was my own decision to jump out.

Well, let's see.

[SlyQQ]

I understand the taste for danger ( it is a bad equation to bring children into if that is a consideration) an a lot of what you said rings bells with me My life is so far from boring I often yearn for it though, over time I hope you can find peace and with that comes happiness I am still searching though

[AnnaK]

I don't have peace, but I have happiness. I don't see peace and happiness as equal.

I am quite happy with my life.

I see happiness in growth and in having all kinds of emotions, negative as well as positive (of course with periods of rest to recover).

I have all this now... .at least I used to, with this guy... .I am not sure what I am going to do when he's gone out of my life... .I was wondering, should I check nearby pubs to find another alcoholic? They seem so interesting :D

[SlyQQ]

I am just about straight edge an a lot more interesting than any alcoholic you will likely find plus most people think i am a nice guy interesting and exciting doesnt have to mean mal adjusted the world is a big place nes pas

[AnnaK]

Lol... .but you are probably in USA, and it's so hard to get a visa... .:D

[SlyQQ]

Oz my first wife was swedish her visa was a bit tricky but like i said the worlds a big place