Oh brother...

[maxsterling]

I didn't wake her up this morning > she overslept and missed an appointment > a bunch of angry stuff > "this is a joke, I want to move out."

Now I am telling her that I will not discuss this via text message while I am at work, and we can discuss when I get home.

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[ColdEthyl]

I didn't wake her up this morning > she overslept and missed an appointment > a bunch of angry stuff > "this is a joke, I want to move out."

Now I am telling her that I will not discuss this via text message while I am at work, and we can discuss when I get home.

*sigh* Another day in paradise huh Max? Sorry hun /hug

[maxsterling]

I didn't wake her up this morning > she overslept and missed an appointment > a bunch of angry stuff > "this is a joke, I want to move out."

Now I am telling her that I will not discuss this via text message while I am at work, and we can discuss when I get home.

*sigh* Another day in paradise huh Max? Sorry hun /hug

No kidding.  I told her that I did not want to continue the conversation via text message while I am at work and that we can discuss when I get home.  That led to a bunch of expletives and blame for things from months ago.  I re-stated my boundary, she then said "I don't want to talk to you."  Okay.  An hour later she was texting me complaining about a few things.  I ignored. 

All this over me not waking her up when she never asked me to wake her up. But I know, this is BPD, the real issue is something else.  The oversleeping was just the trigger to blame me for all kinds of pent up crap.

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

The real issue might be the MC you mentioned in another thread and there will probably be some fallout from the 'Christmas family discontent' that your wife felt. Be prepared for this to escalate right up. Plan your exit before you go home.

That said I hope you can find a way to short circuit it.

[maxsterling]

The real issue might be the MC you mentioned in another thread and there will probably be some fallout from the 'Christmas family discontent' that your wife felt.

I'm sure this is part of it.  She felt the need to mention to me yesterday that her stepmom commented about my mother, too.  In other words "see, even my stepmom agrees your mom talks too much."  That was one of her complaints today, too, that she never wants to visit my family again, and that when I didn't wake her up this morning it felt the same as when on Saturday I left her to talk to my mother while I went and did other things.

[sweetheart]

And of course no matter how much it may seem like she 'gets' what has been said about your mum, it will all feel invalidating and threatening for her because these are not family scenarios she has internalised and understands.

[formflier]

 

Hang in there Max.

I had a bit blowout a few days ago over parenting... .or I should say... .she had one...

I stayed calm... .worked the tools... .and it calmed down on the same day.  Next day was "civil".  Day after that... .back to being a warm happy couple.

Today was one or two angry sentences about the parenting issue... .I was "confused" and didn't understand the issue... .which I really don't... .and within 5 minutes was back to normal... .warm happy couple.

Anyway... .so... yes... .prepare for the worst when you get home... .but also prepare for it to be forgotten.  What would happen if you went home and jumped right in a discussion about something else... .and acted like this morning never happened?

[maxsterling]

What would happen if you went home and jumped right in a discussion about something else... .and acted like this morning never happened?

That would be awesome, and the best case scenario.  The reality here is that I told her we could discuss this later - but really I for the life of me can't think what else is there to discuss other than boundaries. 

I think I will "test the waters" in about an hour.  I'll send her a message regarding potential house guests we may have tonight (her cousin).  that will give me a good indication of what I may face tonight.

[maxsterling]

well, she responded with an answer to my question and no vitriol, so maybe there is some hope for tonight.

[formflier]

well, she responded with an answer to my question and no vitriol, so maybe there is some hope for tonight.

Just believe!  And it will happen!   

[maxsterling]

Well, we are going out to dinner and a movie.  That's fine.  She is out now, and I suggested I meet her at the restaurant.  I don't want to ride in the car with her on the way there and have her criticize my driving.  She did "apologize" for her behavior, but it was an apology with conditions.  She blamed her over reaction on her medications, and then said she does have some serious concerns that we can discuss later.  She also mentioned that her reactions were over the top but her feelings weren't, and she won't apologize for her feelings.  I guess that is about the most I can expect.  My guard is still WAAAY op for tonight.

[formflier]

  She also mentioned that her reactions were over the top but her feelings weren't, and she won't apologize for her feelings.  I guess that is about the most I can expect. 

Max,

This is HUGE!

She shouldn't apologize for her feelings... ever... .

She should apologize for any misbehavior.

She's figured it out.

And... .has given you and opening to talk about managing feelings so that the behavior comes off correctly.  She has basically said feelings and behavior are not one and the same.

See if you can build some momentum on this point!

[maxsterling]

Well, we had a fair evening.  She insisted that we go out to dinner at some place "fancy" and out to a movie (I'm giving you all clues here as to what was really going on).  That went okay.  Then we saw a movie.  That also went okay.  When we got home, the complaints resumed.  She was mad that when I do the dishes, I never wash the blender she uses to make her smoothies, then claiming she *always* cleans up my messes (another clue).  Then another comment about how I disengage from conversations.  Then comments about car commercials on TV, wanting a new car.  Previously in the day, she complained that I had not made special plans for us for new years eve, that she never wants to shop for me again, that she never wants to visit my family again if I am going to leave her alone to talk to my mom (all clues).  Figure it out yet?  

Well, right as I was falling asleep, she asked me to buy something special and somewhat expensive for her to make her feel special.  Then about how she never feels special, and all days feel ordinary... .

Get it?  She was feeling like I wasn't treating her "special" enough and all days and our relationship felt routine.  And when I didn't wake her up, I made her feel like she didn't matter to me, and then the vitriol.  So there is the underlying feeling - not feeling special.  Wow, that's actually exactly like how my mom acted sometimes growing up.  Validate?  Sure.  Calms things over for now, but since this underlying feeling is based on something internal with her lack of self image, it's something that will happen again.  Ultimately, as FF suggested, we are about to have to work on separating that feeling from her reaction.  Perhaps wait a few days or the next MC session to discuss.

[formflier]

 

Max,

I think you are poised for some "special"... (sorry... had to go there) breakthroughs in your r/s.

It seems like she is getting it ... that you really are listening to her... .not shutting her down as long as she doesn't do things that are abusive... .and that you seek to understand her feelings.

What happens when you express to her what she can do to make you feel special.? 

On the one hand... .I don't want this to feel like a trade... .I do something special for you... .and you do something for me... .

But... .both parties in the r/s need to be making the extra effort to do "special" things for the other.

What would happen if you got her something special... .and had expressed to her how you like to be treated (how she can behave)... .that will make intimacy more likely to happen.

And... .what if ever week or so... .you did or got her something "special"... .not expensive... .(not trying to break your bank!    ) 

Just something that says... I was thinking about you... and want to get you something that says you are awesome!... .

And what if that led to her "behaving" in a way that led to more intimacy (the way you like it)... .and that happened regularly.

Boy... .to me... .that sounds like a new years resolution!   

[eyvindr]

Hi max --

Good to see you. I used to be in here quite a bit, but have been gone for about a year.

I think the title of your post hits it on the head -- oh brother is right. This post made me have one of those holee cow moments (italics below are mine) --

Well, we are going out to dinner and a movie.  That's fine.  She is out now, and I suggested I meet her at the restaurant.  I don't want to ride in the car with her on the way there and have her criticize my driving.  She did "apologize" for her behavior, but it was an apology with conditions.  She blamed her over reaction on her medications, and then said she does have some serious concerns that we can discuss later.  She also mentioned that her reactions were over the top but her feelings weren't, and she won't apologize for her feelings. I guess that is about the most I can expect.  My guard is still WAAAY up for tonight.

-- the kind when it feels like we just saw someone post a snapshot from our own memory banks, or read a page out of the "BPD Playbook," or did a serious doubletake and wondered if it could be possible that this poster might be dating my ex?... .(should I check their profile?... .) *laughs*

Of course, I'm admittedly projecting my feelings about my own experience having been in an r-ship with someone wBPD. But I can relate -- it's exasperating. And was, for me, ultimately too perennially exhausting for me to be able to handle. I had to leave.

formflier makes some good observations here:

I think you are poised for some "special"... (sorry... had to go there) breakthroughs in your r/s.

It seems like she is getting it ... that you really are listening to her... .not shutting her down as long as she doesn't do things that are abusive... .and that you seek to understand her feelings.

What happens when you express to her what she can do to make you feel special? 

On the one hand... .I don't want this to feel like a trade... .I do something special for you... .and you do something for me... .

But... .both parties in the r/s need to be making the extra effort to do "special" things for the other.

What would happen if you got her something special... .and had expressed to her how you like to be treated (how she can behave)... .that will make intimacy more likely to happen.

And... .what if ever week or so... .you did or got her something "special"... .not expensive... .(not trying to break your bank!

Just something that says... I was thinking about you... and want to get you something that says you are awesome!... .

Mainly what I hear in his reply is optimism and compassion -- both characteristics that I value highly, and admire in so many of the members of these boards. With all due respect -- and complete recognition that again I'm no doubt projecting my own perceptions into this discussion (why don't I stop that?... .) -- I worry that your wife is really only "getting" the emotional content of this type of interaction, and not the intellectual side. Which is in keeping with the challenges of BPD, completely. I mean that yes, your efforts are having an impact, in that your wife feels that you are listening to her. Which is good, and you should be. But this is only valuable to her because that feeling allows her to believe that she is back in control of the interaction. She apologizes for her behavior, but nor her feelings -- straight out of Couples Counseling 101 -- but... .is it really an apology if it comes with terms? I think not. I've learned that one guaranteed way to undermine an apology is to make it conditional -- "I'm sorry. But... ."

So, she's sorry, but you will be lectured. And expected to redeem yourself. You have disappointed her by failing to meet the terms of her expectations of you as her husband, friend, companion, lover and confidant. And let's remember what your transgression was -- something you weren't required or even requested to do. You "failed" to fulfill an unstated expectation. Bad Max!

I apologize if my reply comes across as cold -- not my intention. I've learned about myself that I am not willing to accept that in order for my primary relationship to even approach functioning that I'm required to engage in some complicated dance with my partner, choreographed to continually provide her with reassurances and validation that she is special, that I do love her. Both of which were true for me. I adored my udxwBPD. And I demonstrated it every second we spent together. And I learned, with her, because of this ugly illness, it was never enough, and never would be enough. Always. In that alone was she consistent.

I had to dance, she didn't. I had to validate, she didn't. I had to reassure, she didn't. She had the needs, I didn't. Her feelings mattered, mine were secondary. Her apologies were always conditional. Mine were required for things I didn't even do. I couldn't take it. It's not something I want in my primary relationship.

That said, it can work for some people. I daily hope that my ex finds someone out there who can provide her with everything she needs to be truly happy. I accepted that I couldn't be that person for her. She refused to accept  it, and even as she paints me black, she openly says it will all stop -- "all you have to do is reconcile with me." In her BPD brain, she really thinks that's a fair and reasonable request.

But, granted, I'm hung up on fairness. And I'm projecting. I wish you the best. She's lucky to have you, and these boards are lucky to have ff and other members like him.

[MissyM]

I have been reading this thread with interest, as I always find your threads interesting Max.  With the therapy that we are doing right now, it would be the underlying emotion of "not feeling special" that I would validate.  How awful it must be to not feel special to anyone in your life and what an empty, lonely feeling that must be.  I have really been working on depersonalizing these issues, as it isn't about me (or you) and it isn't really up to me (or you) to solve. 

Interestingly enough, the weekly assignments include doing nice and thoughtful things for each other every day.  My dBPDh has really struggled with this and is starting to realize that he needs to give those things to be able to have a richer and intimate relationship.  He just struggles in how to do it, it is definitely a foreign language to him.  He grew up in a house that was every man for himself, no nurturing and thoughtfulness towards each other.

Hopefully, this is something you two can discuss in MC.

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.  Yep, I got the "lecture" this morning.  Still in the mode of "she gets it" but "doesn't get it".  Frustrating.  The lecture was once again how she doesn't feel special, how she feels like she forced me to marry her, a long list of "triggers". and generally a bunch of stuff that I have nothing to do with or can't solve for her.  I'm exhausted from the conversation, yet it isn't really abusive.  I'm just tired of talking about the same things over and over and feel like we get NOWHERE.  I'm resigned to just listening and waiting for it to be over.    She went on again about how my family frustrates her, accused them of having undiagnosed mental illnesses, poor comping mechanisms, co-dependency, non confrontational, etc.  What I heard is "your family is crazy, and not me.  She talked about how she is going to have to confront my mom and my sister about their behavior, and how we are all enabling by not confronting them.  I reminded her that confronting them will not change them, and that all previous attempts of trying to confront them directly have led to increased stress with nothing changing for the better.  Then I took her to an alanon meeting with me today.  Maybe that will help. 

[MissyM]

Max, are you reinforcing behavior that you don't want to tolerate by sitting and listening to this for long periods?  Just a thought.  I am all for validating and then removing myself from the situation.  I just can't drag myself down with that, it is exhausting.  Are the holidays typically tough for your dBPDw?

What was the topic at the meeting?  I won't be able to catch any until this weekend.

[formflier]

 

Max,

I wonder if asking her to "show you"... .how to do it better would help.

This is going to be one of my upcoming tactic changes... .or updates in my r/s.

So... don't "blah blah blah" to me about how I don't know how to manage cash and I'm not properly accounting for things.

Show me the way you manage cash and keep up with receipts... and once I understand it will try my best to follow the method that you are happy with...

One... she has no system... .so this gets exposed without me "mentioning it"... she has nothing to show.

Two... .she may develop one... .

Three... .how is it she would want me to behave in a certain way that she is not willing to behave... ."help me understand that?"



I'm sure this will be fun over the next month or so... .

Or... .she may drop the argument all together... .

[formflier]

 

Max,

For now... I'm a fan of you continuing to listen... .as long as it's not abusive.

I really do think you guys are at a turning point... .or jumping off point... .to make some big progress... .

I think you are getting lots of data out of this... even though it wears you out.  It is hard work! 

Anyway... my .02 cents worth on that.

[maxsterling]

Good thoughts here, everyone! 

Max, are you reinforcing behavior that you don't want to tolerate by sitting and listening to this for long periods?  Just a thought.  I am all for validating and then removing myself from the situation.  I just can't drag myself down with that, it is exhausting.  Are the holidays typically tough for your dBPDw?

Well, yes.  But any time where there is forced socialization is tough for her.  Since her particular issue here seems to stem from me wanting to do other things besides listen to her complaints, I don't think this is a good time to exist conversations unless they are especially abusive.  In other words, take what I can get here - her complaining left and right is a step up from the vitriol of the other day. 

And as for reinforcing behavior - I can't change her.   No amount of me exiting conversations will cause her to behave any different.  She's just incapable of understanding that right now - especially apparent because that is what she is upset about.  She's upset because when we got to my parents' house I left the room to talk to my dad leaving her with my mom - I exited the conversation with my mom because it was exhausting.  She doesn't understand that is an appropriate and healthy way to deal with my mom's gossip - don't participate.  I think she can get there, but right now I will take not screaming as progress.

What was the topic at the meeting?  I won't be able to catch any until this weekend.

It was a varied topic meeting, but the focus was mainly on finding a new "home" in alanon, and about starting a new year.  Most people wanted to share about learning to let go of negative thoughts about the holidays.  I think the meeting helped my wife.  Then we went on a long walk, which also helped.  And during the walk she apologized for the "mean things" she said to me the past few days.

[formflier]

  She doesn't understand that is an appropriate and healthy way to deal with my mom's gossip - don't participate.  

Why didn't she leave... .when you left your mom's conversation?   Was she triggered then... or just after the fact when she thought out how you left her?

[maxsterling]

  She doesn't understand that is an appropriate and healthy way to deal with my mom's gossip - don't participate.  

Why didn't she leave... .when you left your mom's conversation?   Was she triggered then... or just after the fact when she thought out how you left her?

Well, she claims she was triggered then, but didn't say anything until a few days later.  She didn't say anything at the time, so I think this is really one of those "I have a feeling that max or his family really doesn't care about me, so let's examine this over and over for an explanation/evidence after the fact" type incidents that are so common with this disorder. 

[formflier]

 

That's what is sounded like to me.  It's been a while since I've had to deal with those... .but they were frustrating. 

What I remember as a completely normal event... .she could remember differently... .and of course... it meant... ."blah blah blah... ."... or was proof of that.

[maxsterling]

That's what is sounded like to me.  It's been a while since I've had to deal with those... .but they were frustrating. 

What I remember as a completely normal event... .she could remember differently... .and of course... it meant... ."blah blah blah... ."... or was proof of that.

She seemed comfortable at the event, seemed laughing and engaging, and having a good time.  Afterwards, she remarked how it went "better than expected" and reiterated that she had a good time.  An hour later is when the complaints started.  And got progressively worse over a few days until a meltdown.  In science, we call these "hypotheses driven conclusions."  In healthy relationships with married couples, I should be able to visit with my dad or siblings while she talks to my mom.  And when she seemed comfortable, I had no problems leaving her to her own devices.  My gut is telling me that she just *feels* uncomfortable around my family, *feels* like this relationship must somehow fail, the negative self talk starts circulating, and then she starts looking for "evidence".  And thus her later comment that her feelings are perfectly valid but her actions weren't.  She just doesn't know what those feelings are, and assumes they have to do with others rather than have to do with herself.

[eyvindr]

The age old dilemma... .

She just doesn't know what those feelings are, and assumes they have to do with others rather than have to do with herself.

"Feelings aren't facts." Wouldn't it be great if all of us could feel the difference between the two? Like, if a feeling felt one way, and a fact felt completely different?

I got it! -- there should be flavors. Imagine a world if humans could taste facts, and they tasted sweet? Would behavior change?