Separating the person from the disorder

[waverider]

Shocking name, that would be shortened to saying someone is officially labeled as "Unstable" and hence you can't trust anything they say or do.

Can you?  Do you trust your pwBPD?  It's been a year since mine started T and I still don't trust him.  Every time there is evidence that he is being honest, I relax a little more, but I cannot say that I trust him, even now.

No I can't trust her completely but things wont improve if you hang a visible label like that around their neck. Can't see it making it easier to accept the diagnosis.

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[enlighten me]

Any label will become unpalatable after a while. Borderline isnt offensive but when put with the dosorder and all things associated with it it becomes a very negative label.

[drummerboy]

I just came across this thread. I have been thinking a lot about this very issue. I don't think that you can separate the disorder from the person anymore than you can separate a person with red hair from their hair colour. I've seen on some BPD support groups mantras that go along the lines of "I am not the illness". This might help a pwBPD feel their is hope in their recovery but from a nons point of view, the pwBPD comes to us with a defective personality that affects everything they do including every interaction with other people. I have written a lot about my relationship and something I keep writing is "Who were you?" Was she a good person with an illness or was she a disordered person that sometimes acted nice? It's a bit of a chicken and the egg situation. The bottom line for me is she was a person totally incapable of having a normal adult relationship and I'm very glad that she is out of my life.

[flowerpath]

I don’t think you can separate the person from the disorder either (although I'd like to - completely!), and that was why I was struggling with the concept and what it really means.

I’m a visual learner, and this is what helped me to see what “separating the person from the disorder” really is:

I think what phoebe is saying is there is not a normal person there who has periodic BPD episodes,. It is there all the time and effects them at a personal level, but we only see it when it comes to the surface, hence personality disorder.

This is a valid point and must be borne in mind. Separating it out is only a coping visualization measure to help remove some of the blame game conflict so you can reach a level of cooperation in tackling the traits.

[enlighten me]

This come back to a post about self. Our self is made up from our lifetime experiences and actions. If we remove part of our personality then we are changed and not the same person we were. Strip away enough parts and what we are left with is a shadow of our former self. This is the same with a pwBPD. It is an integral part of who they are.

[pallavirajsinghani]

I have heard the alternate term,  "Emotional Regulation Disorder" being used.  I prefer this one because to me it seems very clear:  A person who has trouble self-regulating their emotions.

[waverider]

I have heard the alternate term,  "Emotional Regulation Disorder" being used.  I prefer this one because to me it seems very clear:  A person who has trouble self-regulating their emotions.

I often use a phrase like that when someone asks what BPD means. There is more to it than that but it gives a simplistic idea of the core issue.

This come back to a post about self. Our self is made up from our lifetime experiences and actions. If we remove part of our personality then we are changed and not the same person we were. Strip away enough parts and what we are left with is a shadow of our former self. This is the same with a pwBPD. It is an integral part of who they are.

Following on from this idea that we are a product of our experiences it is easy to see that a pwBPD who may reach a stage of being trait free they have missed out on a lifetime of "normal" experiences, and hence will always have a certain void that cant be replaced. There will always be a lot of stuff that has not been learned through personal evolution.

To a degree this is what makes treating BPD so hard as they dont have that "normal" perspective to fall back on, instincts will lead them back to native BPD thinking.

It is hard to remove anything without replacing it with something else. How can you provide someone with a lifetimes worth of healthy evolution?

[enlighten me]

I totally agree waverider. This is why early treatment of BPD is so important and where it not being able to be diagnosed until 18 hinders. By 18 we have learnt most of our coping skills for living. The older we get the more set in our ways we become.

This is also why treatment is so difficult and long term as you cannot change habits of a lifetime over night.

[waverider]

I totally agree waverider. This is why early treatment of BPD is so important and where it not being able to be diagnosed until 18 hinders. By 18 we have learnt most of our coping skills for living. The older we get the more set in our ways we become.

This is also why treatment is so difficult and long term as you cannot change habits of a lifetime over night.

Recently spoke to a BPD therapist and apparently the medical profession is starting to try and diagnose it earlier for this very reason. Problem that complicates it is until a pattern becomes repeated it is hard to attributed it to BPD accurately and not some other temporary stress factor. Teenagers can be pretty dysfunctional at that age anyway.

[enlighten me]

My exgf has a 10 year old daughter who displays a lot of BPD traits. She is selfish, manipulative, lies all the time and causes trouble at school which she blames on others. The problem is as her mum is not self aware then there is little hope that her daughter could get treatment. I have thought about speaking to her dad but I dont think it would be received well.

[waverider]

My exgf has a 10 year old daughter who displays a lot of BPD traits. She is selfish, manipulative, lies all the time and causes trouble at school which she blames on others. The problem is as her mum is not self aware then there is little hope that her daughter could get treatment. I have thought about speaking to her dad but I dont think it would be received well.

Its sad to watch but there is probably not much you can do. Is her mum pwBPD and is the father aware of it?

[enlighten me]

Her mum is uBPD. She ticks 7 of the 9 criteria. The two I cant be sure of are self harm/ suicidal and feeling of emptiness as this was never brought up. Mum is a typical queen type. She is not self aware as all her problems have always been someone elses fault.

Her dad isnt her real dad but raised her from a baby. I dont think he is aware of BPD and have never spoken to him.

Its hard to sit back and watch. Part of me thinks an early intervention could save a lot of heartache. Another part of me thinks it would blow up in my face amd make things worse.

[notdownyet]

I think that the person/personality can be separated from the disorder, in some individuals.

Of course, we’ve all experienced different relationships, and the disorder affects each individual in very much different ways.

The disorder in its self, is episodic and reactive, where the fight or flight urges are being triggered.  I would say that it's inaccurate to say that the BPD individual is permanently in this state, where the core personality is eclipsed by malformed coping mechanisms.

In my experience, I've concluded that my wife has a blue print for the personality that she would like to present to the world, which features a set of good core values, including some self-awareness.

However, during episodes and stressful periods, she'll lose sight of this blue-print, and her projected self will be a distinct mismatch with her core values.  I would say that this state is not a true reflection of her personality.

Perhaps in some individuals, this blue print only exists as an idealisation, which can never be achieved.   To use a metaphor, like software, that was never fully installed onto the hard-drive.   In which case, the personality would be very transient, and therefore very difficult to distinguish from the disorder.

FYI, these as just my personal thoughts and observations – I’m no psychologist.

[waverider]

I think that the person/personality can be separated from the disorder, in some individuals.

Of course, we’ve all experienced different relationships, and the disorder affects each individual in very much different ways.

The disorder in its self, is episodic and reactive, where the fight or flight urges are being triggered.  I would say that it's inaccurate to say that the BPD individual is permanently in this state, where the core personality is eclipsed by malformed coping mechanisms.

In my experience, I've concluded that my wife has a blue print for the personality that she would like to present to the world, which features a set of good core values, including some self-awareness.

However, during episodes and stressful periods, she'll lose sight of this blue-print, and her projected self will be a distinct mismatch with her core values.  I would say that this state is not a true reflection of her personality.

Perhaps in some individuals, this blue print only exists as an idealisation, which can never be achieved.   To use a metaphor, like software, that was never fully installed onto the hard-drive.   In which case, the personality would be very transient, and therefore very difficult to distinguish from the disorder.

FYI, these as just my personal thoughts and observations – I’m no psychologist.

Not all aspects of a BPD personality are toxic, but their information and emotional  process is always different. It is mainly at times of stress when there is an overloading leading to overt dysfunctionality that we really notice it.

During calm times they can be coping fine, fitting in, and all is sweet. But our thought process are as alien to them as theirs is to us. This is why they dont own, or realize, they were out of order as they dont have a "normal" to benchmark against.

It takes therapy to give them insight as to what is "appropriate' before they can realize that all the stuff that has gone wrong in their lifes comes from their own interactions. If they had non times and BPD times, then they would know after an episode they were totally inappropriate and hence learn the consequences were due to their own actions, making it easier to rectify.

They simply have triggered and non triggered times.

This blue print you speak of is what she has learned to wear to cope. BPD is not the words and ideals stated, it is the thought processing. It strips off under stress because it is not a real core value, it is almost who they would like to be rather than who they are.

[enlighten me]

I agree waverider. BPD is different from something like bi polar where there is a normal. I have a bi polar friend and during an episode he is aware that he is having one. With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

[waverider]

I agree waverider. BPD is different from something like bi polar where there is a normal. I have a bi polar friend and during an episode he is aware that he is having one. With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

The more you get into it and start to roll back the worst of the behavior the more you recognize ordinary everyday "adaptations" they are using to work around their issues in order to be functional. These adaptations are very subtle but eventually they can all be linked back to common core differences in the way they think.

[enlighten me]

Its sad but when I think about the worst times thats when I realise she was being most honest. Her public persona is so tpgether. Hair and make up for the school run. Always says the right thing etc etc. Behind closed doors a mess.

[waverider]

Its sad but when I think about the worst times thats when I realise she was being most honest. Her public persona is so tpgether. Hair and make up for the school run. Always says the right thing etc etc. Behind closed doors a mess.

Fear of not being in control and the demons showing through creates much of the anxiety issues. It can mean this over compensating leads to success in their outside lives leading to the typical "high functioning" type of pwBPD. They can be driven to be the boss, to have ultimate control. A fear of not being in control

[123Phoebe]

I don't know, I somehow manage to see the person "behind" the disorder.

It's like taking away the masks one by one - the "nice guy", the "angry monster", the "rational man" (occasionally "religious fanatic", "bad boy", "stubborn child", "loving uncle" and on and on it goes )... .

I'm either not sure I understand what you mean exactly, or am pretty positive that I disagree.

This all sounds rather normal actually, well, maybe other than the "angry monster" persona.  Is a true religious fanatic only occasionally fanatical about their beliefs?  Does it make their personality more whole by being fanatical always?  Or would some other PD be at play there?  Would another religious fanatic disagree?  Loving uncle?  I'm a loving aunt; is it a mask I'm wearing?

I think what phoebe is saying is there is not a normal person there who has periodic BPD episodes,. It is there all the time and effects them at a personal level, but we only see it when it comes to the surface, hence personality disorder.

Actually, what I was trying to convey is to be careful about pegging someone as having a PD simply from displaying an assortment of personality traits.  I don't understand how dissecting, then removing someone's very normal traits can define them as certainly having a mask-wearing PD, that when stripped away they become a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child.  Because if that's the case, I'm curious to know what defines a personality, using that frame as reference?

How many people can say that they've never had a stubborn moment in their life?  Or haven't gotten into a deep (maybe even heated!) discussion about their religious beliefs?  Nice guy and rational man masks?  See, I'm just having a hard time comprehending how when you strip these "masks" away, you wind up with a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child...  It's not making sense.  I have an understanding of Schema, this doesn't seem to fit in with that though.

What does make sense, is that we are all here taking part in this forum because we love somebody who we believe to have a personality disorder.  I think my guy is "perfectly normal", taking into consideration the events and life choices that bring him to where he is today.  He's had WAY more experiences than I have in certain aspects, while I have had a lot more in others.  We're different people.  We're going to respond to the world differently.  I'm going to trigger him and he's going to trigger me, because of our own experiences and how we relate to them.  Being triggered isn't really the issue, imo; how we react to the trigger is what makes all the difference.  Recognizing that it even IS a trigger to being with.  Being able to talk to each other about it, not place blame on them for triggering us.

In my case, this is how the relating would go; blame him for triggering me into having to know how I really feel about something, deciding whether it's something I can live with or something I have to draw a line on, then implementing my decision.  How dare he make me make a decision about my own life!  What about "us"?  

Me + He = US.  I make choices/decisions, he makes choices/decisions, that's where "us" comes in.  Our choices and decisions as rudimentary, awkward, fumbling and ungraceful as they've been at times have gotten us where we are today because of a real desire to get to know each other, to care about each other, to better ourselves, to bring out our best!

I don't want to strip him down to bare-bones to understand him.  I appreciate knowing what might possibly be going on with him, but then isn't it up to me to find out from him?

That's been one of the hardest things to do, because in order to do that I've had to take off my analytical, psych-driven thinking cap and feel my way through this relationship... .

Yikes!  But, whew... . Because that's what I do best.  I'm a pretty good feeler.  They just don't always = facts.

[notdownyet]

This blue print you speak of is what she has learned to wear to cope. BPD is not the words and ideals stated, it is the thought processing. It strips off under stress because it is not a real core value, it is almost who they would like to be rather than who they are.

I agree with most of what you're saying here.  However, BPD is on a spectrum and some will have more of a sense of self than others.

Generally speaking, my wife has a different mask for different occasions.  Under calm circumstances, and in the right environment, she’ll drop her mask and is able to recognise her own distorted thinking.  That’s not to say that the disorder goes away.

The question whether the disorder can be separated from the person is a difficult one to answer.  Maybe some can and some can’t, depending on how lost they are in their own world of fear.  Perhaps the answer is more of a philosophical one.

I agree waverider. BPD is different from something like bi polar where there is a normal. I have a bi polar friend and during an episode he is aware that he is having one. With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Yes I agree, that the disorder is pervasive, and that their actions are constantly governed by how they're perceived; mixed in with shame

However, your point fits in with the view that this disorder is on a spectrum.  Not all BPD individuals fear leaving their own homes to do the shopping.

Not sure about your point regarding self-awareness during a bipolar (manic) episode though.  In this state, self-awareness is usually zero, hence the destructive and out of character behaviours.

[123Phoebe]

With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Are you 100% certain that this is the case?  I know a lot of people who shop online because of convenience. 

[Crumbling]

Okay, this discussion has help me see my BPDh from many different points of view - this is good, ya!

Someone made the point that if you strip out the disorder, you are left with a scared lonely child.  BINGO.  That is the core of his person.  He has never had a safe way to move out of that state, or to heal that inner child and so, that kid 'drives his bus', or hides.  This little child is where the love needs to get to, but doesn't.  It can't because of the disorder. 

I love the adult him, with all his faults, and if I separate the disorder from who he is, in my mind, I can easier forgive him for saying/doing things that hurt me deeply.  Maybe this is dysfunctional thinking, I don't know.  All I know is that by recognizing the scared lonely child that is in the heart of who he is, I am much more apt to want to stay, love him, and do what I can to help him function better each day, because that little child hasn't hurt me, and never will.

MY BPDh is low-functioning.  He has been stuck doing the same types of jobs his whole life, never had kids of his own, never moved out of his hometown where he grew up, never been on a vacation.  Lived in the same house for 27yrs.  No post-secondary education. No drive to thrive in this guy! We are complete opposites.  I was drawn to his 'stability', him to my 'adventurousness' (if that's a word). 

This disorder is on a spectrum, and perhaps depending where on that spectrum your SO is, would play a factor in how you perceive your situation.  I also liked the comment that this is perhaps a philosophical question, and whatever line of thinking works for you is the right one.

It sure helps to see so many points of view tho.  That way, if my way of thinking ain't working, than I can perhaps try someone else's.

[enlighten me]

I agree the disorder is on a spectrum and some have more difficulty than others.

My point with my bi polar friend was that he is aware when he starts an epidode. He may get taken over by it but when je comes out he knows he had an episode. With BPD there isnt this awareness.

[Moselle]

I was drawn to his 'stability', him to my 'adventurousness' (if that's a word). 

Crumbling, I can relate to this, as it was part of my decision making process to marry my dBPD/NPD spouse as well. But the "stable" home-girl was not that at all. I think she picked up the cues about what I was looking for and mimicked my perfect girl.

How do you reconcile this? I feel cheated, fooled, tricked.

[notdownyet]

I agree the disorder is on a spectrum and some have more difficulty than others.

My point with my bi polar friend was that he is aware when he starts an epidode. He may get taken over by it but when je comes out he knows he had an episode. With BPD there isnt this awareness.

I understand your point.

My wife has episodes that involving extreme black and white thinking, blaming, projection etc – all the usual.

However, eventually she returns to what you might call a baseline, and is more self-aware.

Underneath this, I believe that there is a personality that wants to come out, and would like to think that she can become greater than the sum of her flaws.

[enlighten me]

With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Are you 100% certain that this is the case?  I know a lot of people who shop online because of convenience. 

I cant be certain but what are we certain of with BPD? All I know is they both despised going to supermarkets. They also would buy stuff from the more expensive ranges wheras online its normal. The shopping trolley seemed to be more flamboyant if that makes any sense. They also studied other peoples shopping trolleys. I dont know it just felt weird. Nothing red flag like but there seemed to be something that I couldnt put my finger on. The only thing It felt like was that they were being judged. As if they didnt want to make a wrong choice in case they were thought less of.

[maxsterling]

My wife has similar issues to shopping.  enlighten me - I think you could be dead on here as to the reasons.  She's actually vocalized to me those issues.  And she, too pays attention to what other people are buying or wearing.  Part of that is the BPD, but she also has some serious FOO issues here.  She comes from a culture that tends to obsess over money and image.  She claims that when she was younger family members used to ask to look at the labels on her clothes to see what brand she was wearing.  She is very brand conscious.  A few months ago, she was in the mall and bought some clothes.  When she showed her aunt the clothes she bought, she made an apologetic and negative comment to her aunt regarding the store she bought them at. 

I had a BPD/NPD ex who was very image conscious as well, and worried that others would judge her.  I think in her case it was more of the NPD kicking in, that she felt she deserved some kind of a lavish lifestyle and everything else was beneath her.  She was constantly judging others for the way they lived.  And I think she felt that if she shopped at certain stores or ate at certain restaurants people would judge her as not high class.  She also had FOO issues - her dad had quite a bit of money, she once worked as a nanny for an extremely famous celebrity, and her sister was married to a very famous celebrity.

pwBPD seem to have issues with self-image and worries about other's opinions.  They also tend to mirror others.    But don't discount the role of FOO in all of this. 

[123Phoebe]

I dont know it just felt weird. Nothing red flag like but there seemed to be something that I couldnt put my finger on. The only thing It felt like was that they were being judged. As if they didnt want to make a wrong choice in case they were thought less of.

I can understand your line of thinking, enlighten me, I really can.  I've thought that way numerous times myself.  Then it was like, whoa, I'm judging them!  It's okay to be different.  It's okay to look in someone else's cart; shoot, I've ran back for carrots after seeing them in someone else's cart, or tried a new cereal.  Sometimes I get sick of the same old thing and can't think of what it is I really want--  Ooo, that spinach dips looks good, think I'll get some myself.  As long as I'm not taking it out of their cart, no worries

Then there's the issue of being thought less of... . This will probably be a bit abstract:

I know of a dynamic where the husband makes a good living, $250,000yr.  His wife and mother-in-law have fits(!) because he goes to a convenience store every morning for a pop.  ":)o you know how much money you're wasting?  If you bought those at wholesale store you could save $$$.  It's ridiculous blah blah blah"

This guy is not going to stop getting his morning pop from the store he chooses to get it from.  BUT, if he had a different personality, he might feel really bad about it, taking what wife and mil say on board, feeling like he doesn't live up to their standards (or who knows what ).  If they were to approach him differently about it, maybe he would take what they say on board.  Their approach is to tell him that he's an idiot for spending that kind of money frivolously.  They're judging him and his decisions.  No mention of the great job he's doing being a provider to his family; nitpicking tiny things, making mountains out of molehills.

I believe some of us do that sort of thing to our partners without even realizing it.  We take things we don't agree with or understand and blow them out of proportion.

[drummerboy]

My ex was terrified of shopping, just the thought of it paralysed her.

With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Are you 100% certain that this is the case?  I know a lot of people who shop online because of convenience. 

[waverider]

I was drawn to his 'stability', him to my 'adventurousness' (if that's a word). 

Crumbling, I can relate to this, as it was part of my decision making process to marry my dBPD/NPD spouse as well. But the "stable" home-girl was not that at all. I think she picked up the cues about what I was looking for and mimicked my perfect girl.

How do you reconcile this? I feel cheated, fooled, tricked.

This is why they are good at job interviews, but lousy at keeping a job.

You can only reconcile this by changing your expectations and readjusting. This does not mean it is all give, find areas where you can gain reward that you otherwise didn't expect.

In short find a new "deal", the old one is dead duck