Red flag rediscovered...

[Depression = 72% of members]

Wow... .when we first met I was in my last few months of graduate school and was super busy.  As a result, we couldn't spend the time together that we wanted to - and ended up chatting a lot instead.  I was just re-reading through some of the chats I saved and found this... .

ME: (7:51:19 PM): There don't seem to be very many people anymore that truly put a relationship first, but I can tell that you do, and I love it... .and I’ll do the same.

HER: (7:51:55 PM): I'm in a space where I can though, you know?

ME: (7:52:07 PM): what do you mean?

HER: (7:52:33 PM): I think that some people don't know how... .or have other complications that prevent them from seeing the true value in a relationship that is mutual and amazing... .therefore... .they don't put it first

ME: (7:53:06 PM): but what did YOU mean, "I'm in a space where I can"

HER: (7:53:18 PM): well... .

HER: (7:53:50 PM): I'm strong enough as an individual to be able to put us on the top of the list

HER: (7:53:54 PM): if that makes sense... .

ME: (7:54:02 PM): somewhat

ME: (7:54:23 PM): okay, not really, but you don't have to keep going with it if you don't want

HER: (7:55:03 PM): It all stems from the fact that I worked really hard to know how to be part of a relationship and not lose who I am... .while valuing the other person, too

HER: (7:55:43 PM): and I REALLY value you and who you are and where you're from and where you're going... .and how that includes "us"

ME: (7:55:56 PM): hmmmmm... .I wouldn't want you to get lost in me... .I’m glad you're not in that space anymore. i enjoy you... .who you are, what you bring to "us" - I wouldn't want to lose that element.

HER: (7:56:41 PM): I wouldn't get lost in you... .because that's where the individual strength part

comes in 

She was in therapy at the end of a (physically) abusive relationship that she was in about two years before she met me, which is where I'm guessing the above "awareness" developed.  But now I'm wondering exactly how much she knew about herself (diagnosis, etc.) when we met.

If I ever hear those words again at the beginning of a relationship... .      

[jhkbuzz]

Wow... .when we first met I was in my last few months of graduate school and was super busy.  As a result, we couldn't spend the time together that we wanted to - and ended up chatting a lot instead.  I was just re-reading through some of the chats I saved and found this... .

ME: (7:51:19 PM): There don't seem to be very many people anymore that truly put a relationship first, but I can tell that you do, and I love it... .and I’ll do the same.

HER: (7:51:55 PM): I'm in a space where I can though, you know?

ME: (7:52:07 PM): what do you mean?

HER: (7:52:33 PM): I think that some people don't know how... .or have other complications that prevent them from seeing the true value in a relationship that is mutual and amazing... .therefore... .they don't put it first

ME: (7:53:06 PM): but what did YOU mean, "I'm in a space where I can"

HER: (7:53:18 PM): well... .

HER: (7:53:50 PM): I'm strong enough as an individual to be able to put us on the top of the list

HER: (7:53:54 PM): if that makes sense... .

ME: (7:54:02 PM): somewhat

ME: (7:54:23 PM): okay, not really, but you don't have to keep going with it if you don't want

HER: (7:55:03 PM): It all stems from the fact that I worked really hard to know how to be part of a relationship and not lose who I am... .while valuing the other person, too

HER: (7:55:43 PM): and I REALLY value you and who you are and where you're from and where you're going... .and how that includes "us"

ME: (7:55:56 PM): hmmmmm... .I wouldn't want you to get lost in me... .I’m glad you're not in that space anymore. i enjoy you... .who you are, what you bring to "us" - I wouldn't want to lose that element.

HER: (7:56:41 PM): I wouldn't get lost in you... .because that's where the individual strength part

comes in 

She was in therapy at the end of a (physically) abusive relationship that she was in about two years before she met me, which is where I'm guessing the above "awareness" developed.  But now I'm wondering exactly how much she knew about herself (diagnosis, etc.) when we met.

If I ever hear those words again at the beginning of a relationship... .      

[billypilgrim]

That's pretty wild.  It really is like they have some lucid moments in which they realize what it is they they feel or what it is that they've done in the past isn't necessarily healthy or normal.  Your ex expressed fears of enmeshment.  She seems to have realized her tendency to mirror her partner and knows the effects it can have on her and her relationships.

Mine had similar realizations that were huge red flags looking back on things.  We were a few months away from trying to have kids but a couple of times over the few months before she left, she would have these "ah ha" moments.  She would look at me and say "I'm going to be a terrible mother."  Of course, when I heard that I went into validation mode and tried to dissuade her from feeling that way.  But she's right.  She would be a terrible mother.  She can't spend that much time on anyone but herself.  And given her mother's diagnosis, she'd likely just go down the same road her her own kid.

[jhkbuzz]

That's pretty wild.  It really is like they have some lucid moments in which they realize what it is they they feel or what it is that they've done in the past isn't necessarily healthy or normal.  Your ex expressed fears of enmeshment.  She seems to have realized her tendency to mirror her partner and knows the effects it can have on her and her relationships.

Not just her tendency to mirror, but the phrase "while valuing the other person too" makes me think she was aware of her tendency to "devalue" once she became enmeshed.

At the beginning of our relationship she came across as a person who was completely open and without guile... .but I suspect there were many, many details about herself and her past relationships that she failed to mention.

There really were some lucid moments... .and moments of genuine caring... .and moments of genuine remorse when she acted badly... .that's what makes understanding the entire relationship so difficult.  If it was all awful it would be easy to process and put away.

And, by the way, I had many episodes of trying to validate my exBPDgf as well.  I loved her so I tried but it was exhausting... .and didn't help anything one bit.

[patientandclear]

(A small point but Billy, when your ex said she'd be a terrible mom and you reassured her she wouldn't ... .That is complimentary and warm but it isn't what is meant here by validating. When people have deep-seated fears about themselves, it isn't validating to reject their point of view. Just noting that as validation is an important concept in dealing with BPD.)

Jhkbuzz: my ex shared that same concept but only after we reconnected after the breakup and a long period of NC. We were explaining ourselves to one another after that long break as if for the first time. He had said he was working on avoiding attachment. I was not yet familiar with the Buddhist concept of harmful attachment. I thought he just meant closeness and commitment. So I asked whether he really meant he needed to not get attached to people.

He answered with essentially what your ex said here: he said he used to wonder where the women were who would prioritize the r/ship. (I was on high alert from the very beginning of your exchange with your ex because of that.) But then he realized that he loses himself in r/ships, so he is no longer looking for that. He is working on individuation and his self, and he didn't think he could do that in a r/ship.

(We went on to have a wonderful year together in an emotionally intimate quasi partner r/ship where neither of us were seeing anyone else, and we practiced being loving and seeing one another without enmeshment--without ever saying so explicitly. I suspect he was in therapy and working on those issues at that time.) (and then he ran far away and hurt me a lot--proving to himself that he had not lost himself--lest anyone think this was the unicorn happy ending magic formula story. He has zero concept of commitment other than that enmeshed kind that he now is equipped to see is a threat to his integrity as an autonomous person. He doesn't know how to have a healthy r/ship and he treated ours very poorly in the end.)

Sounds like your ex had attained a similar insight about where r/ships go wrong for her--which doesn't mean she knows how to be together without that happening, is the kicker. I believe they protect their selves by sabotaging closeness. It's like the relationship is a sacrifice on the altar of their survival as an individual. I obviously want my ex to be his own person and not get swallowed up in me. But that doesn't mean it's OK to ignore the value of the r/ship or take it for granted either, which became his practice. It's like he was continuously demonstrating that he did NOT care too much.

Point being, the fact that someone with BPD sees their tendency to lose themselves, doesn't mean she does know how to be in a r/ship without doing that.  She just knows the need to avoid losing herself caused problems.

What you said back to her is great and is essentially what I reassured my ex too. "I wouldn't want you to lose yourself in me." Unfortunately just hearing those words does not give them the skills needed to stay close while managing the threat feeling they get from being so close. It's clear and obvious to us because we don't have this disorder.

[jhkbuzz]

He answered with essentially what your ex said here: he said he used to wonder where the women were who would prioritize the r/ship. (I was on high alert from the very beginning of your exchange with your ex because of that.)

Lol I said that! ("There don't seem to be very many people anymore that truly put a relationship first"

But I won't back pedal from it... .it's my observed experience.  My parents have been married for 60 years, which takes a lot of hard work and a decision by both parties to prioritize the relationship. Not everyone is able to engage in the compromise needed to make a healthy, long term relationship work.

[patientandclear]

Yep, sorry, I realized that was you! What I wrote was unclear, but I meant he said the thing about not losing yourself in relationships (her implying that had been a problem in the past, my ex coming out and saying so).

[fromheeltoheal]

HER: (7:55:03 PM): It all stems from the fact that I worked really hard to know how to be part of a relationship and not lose who I am... .while valuing the other person, too

Just for clarity's sake, she's fearing engulfment, not enmeshment.  A borderline, someone without a fully formed 'self' of their own, an incomplete ego, looks for attachments to make themselves whole, creating one 'person' out of two, a replaying of that earliest attachment they never successful detached from, which created the disorder to begin with.  If someone without a 'self' gets too close to someone else, they risk 'losing themselves', getting buried, inundated, so they push us away, only to feel abandoned when we get too far, so then they pull us back, the push/pull that creates the chaos in these relationships.

Gotta give her credit for having the self awareness to know what happens for her in relationships and to articulate it to you.  That's surely a tip-off at this point, but none of would know the implications of what she said at the time.  Then again, intimacy and enmeshment raises those questions for anyone, where do I stop and you begin, although it's to the extreme with a borderline.  If that comes up in the future with someone, "what do you mean by that" is a pretty valid question.

[jhkbuzz]

Can you explain the difference between engulfment and enmeshment?  I guess I saw them on a continuum... .you become engulfed, and so become enmeshed... .

[HappyNihilist]

Sounds like your ex had attained a similar insight about where r/ships go wrong for her--which doesn't mean she knows how to be together without that happening, is the kicker. I believe they protect their selves by sabotaging closeness. It's like the relationship is a sacrifice on the altar of their survival as an individual. I obviously want my ex to be his own person and not get swallowed up in me. But that doesn't mean it's OK to ignore the value of the r/ship or take it for granted either, which became his practice. It's like he was continuously demonstrating that he did NOT care too much.

This was my experience with my exBPDbf, as well. He'd also been in therapy and was very self-aware. He had that insight about his r/s's... .but was also unable to be in a r/s without the same things happening. He would get so angry at himself, even hitting his head, and rant, "I always do this, I always push away the people I care about" -- but then turn right around and act out to push me away.

There's a big difference between knowing one's self and changing one's self. It's hard for all of us. It's easier and more comfortable to revert back to familiar patterns.

You're absolutely right, patientandclear... .it's never OK to devalue or take for granted the r/s. We are humans and have worth, and deserve to be treated as such by our partners.

Point being, the fact that someone with BPD sees their tendency to lose themselves, doesn't mean she does know how to be in a r/ship without doing that.  She just knows the need to avoid losing herself caused problems.

[fromheeltoheal]

Can you explain the difference between engulfment and enmeshment?  I guess I saw them on a continuum... .you become engulfed, and so become enmeshed... .

They are similar and I'm not an expert but: enmeshment applies more to codependency, where someone will enable an alcoholic in their drinking or a borderline in their chaos for example, or more generally, someone who is more defined by their relationship than as an individual.  Intimacy is tricky stuff, and we all can get so close to someone that we don't know where we end and they begin, although healthy intimacy involves both people retaining their individuality while being emotionally intimate, while enmeshment involves 'losing yourself' into the relationship.

Engulfment, on the other hand, applies to borderlines who don't have a fully formed self, so they will get lost in the other person so they don't exist at all, at least that's the fear that makes them push away.  It's not about remaining an individual inside a relationship, since they don't see themselves as individuals anyway, at least subconsciously, it's about existing at all.

Maybe that helps.  I suppose a quick definition would be the difference between losing yourself in a relationship and not having a self to begin with.

[Trog]

Why do we simply not believe what they tell us! Every time ive been take for a spin the perp has told me straight that they were crazy/selfish/etc and each time I told them 'Awww, im sure you aren't'... .No! They are! They tell us! And then we want to fix or make them feel better and that is their cue to take everything we had and exploit us.

Finally I have learnt this lesson, a girl came onto me on NYe and then explained that her resolution was to give up being a 'massive pothead'. I told her good for her and walked away. They want people who will tolerate their disfunction. That's why they tell us. Screening.