collecting legal fees, or moving on

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I feel deja vu posting this, because I've been in this exact position before, except this time feels a little different.

Backstory: Over four years of custody battles with N/BPDx (a former trial attorney), I've dealt with more than 60+ court filings. You know it's bad when the security police at the court house tell you to use the lawyer entrance because they see you so often they figure you're an attorney   And you know it's bad when the judge files a gatekeeping order against your ex to stop him from filing frivolous motions.

Long story short, after 4 long years of custody battles, including 4 appeals (all dismissed), and the usual delays and obstructions with car title, house refinance, the judge awarded me full custody and terminated visitation. I thought NBPDx was going to appeal the termination of visitation, but he didn't. That timeline has passed. At that same hearing, the judge awarded me legal fees. $3600. Which is a lot of money to me right now. I'm in graduate school for at least another semester, work full time at a job that doesn't pay a whole lot, and have legal debt like only people here can imagine. Alimony ends next month, so my monthly income is about to drop. Fortunately, my lawyer has said I can take as long as I need to pay it back. I chip away at it every month, and she has forgiven some of it. N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state. 

I'm really, really, really tired of courtrooms and motions and filings and big fat envelopes stuffed with legal documents.

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

But with full custody and no visitation, N/BPDx is out of the picture.

I don't know whether to fire up the legal machine again. I don't know if I would have to appear in court or not. The judge I had for the last four years rotated off the bench, so it's possible my L would want me to show up if it's a new judge.

The one big difference filing to collect the $$$ this time (I've collected legal fees 3x before) is that N/BPDx has a new girlfriend. I remember N/BPDx's second wife (I was #3, although at the time thought I was #2), was trying to get him to settle up on a legal debt when we were first married and he just cut a check. So maybe the idealization stage with the new girlfriend could help?

[livednlearned]

I feel deja vu posting this, because I've been in this exact position before, except this time feels a little different.

Backstory: Over four years of custody battles with N/BPDx (a former trial attorney), I've dealt with more than 60+ court filings. You know it's bad when the security police at the court house tell you to use the lawyer entrance because they see you so often they figure you're an attorney   And you know it's bad when the judge files a gatekeeping order against your ex to stop him from filing frivolous motions.

Long story short, after 4 long years of custody battles, including 4 appeals (all dismissed), and the usual delays and obstructions with car title, house refinance, the judge awarded me full custody and terminated visitation. I thought NBPDx was going to appeal the termination of visitation, but he didn't. That timeline has passed. At that same hearing, the judge awarded me legal fees. $3600. Which is a lot of money to me right now. I'm in graduate school for at least another semester, work full time at a job that doesn't pay a whole lot, and have legal debt like only people here can imagine. Alimony ends next month, so my monthly income is about to drop. Fortunately, my lawyer has said I can take as long as I need to pay it back. I chip away at it every month, and she has forgiven some of it. N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state. 

I'm really, really, really tired of courtrooms and motions and filings and big fat envelopes stuffed with legal documents.

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

But with full custody and no visitation, N/BPDx is out of the picture.

I don't know whether to fire up the legal machine again. I don't know if I would have to appear in court or not. The judge I had for the last four years rotated off the bench, so it's possible my L would want me to show up if it's a new judge.

The one big difference filing to collect the $$$ this time (I've collected legal fees 3x before) is that N/BPDx has a new girlfriend. I remember N/BPDx's second wife (I was #3, although at the time thought I was #2), was trying to get him to settle up on a legal debt when we were first married and he just cut a check. So maybe the idealization stage with the new girlfriend could help?

[Aussie JJ]

At that same hearing, the judge awarded me legal fees. $3600. Which is a lot of money to me right now.

Like everyone else here, we didn't go to court because of the money.  Unfortunately it's another way to stay engaged with the ex when he doesn't pay. 

The one big difference filing to collect the $$$ this time (I've collected legal fees 3x before) is that N/BPDx has a new girlfriend. I remember N/BPDx's second wife (I was #3, although at the time thought I was #2), was trying to get him to settle up on a legal debt when we were first married and he just cut a check. So maybe the idealization stage with the new girlfriend could help?

Direct request.  Dear exBPDh, you were ordered to pay XYZ at the hearing on ABC.  When will this money be paid.  If I don't get a reply by DEFG I will be forced to file more court motions for payment as on the previous occasions listed below.  Please indicated when I will receive this money from you, if i dont receive a reply from you by DEFG as stated above I will start court preceding s again. 

On a side note here... .

My last employer owes me about $4000 in wages unpaid.  I made a choice when I got a new job to just leave it be.  $4000 is ALOT of money to me, a huge amount of cash.  My previous employer is a text book NPD case.  To try and get the money out of him would be a battle in itself, I didn't know about all these different mental health issues back then however I knew it would be an uphill battle so I left it.  3 years later I don't care about this money, or this previous employer.  If your able to get the money out of the ex go for it, same as everyone here, follow through if you say your going to do XYZ. 

It may be a bit wishy washy my response.  I hope it adds up.  Do what is the correct thing to do for yourself... .


AJJ. 

[whirlpoollife]

Since you still owe to your L, can she help try to get to get the money with the provision that she gets a percentage of it if it comes in? And no fees paid if no money comes in.  You would not get the full amount this way, but no new fees would added to what you owe L, and she would then get paid on what you already owe.

[livednlearned]

Since you still owe to your L, can she help try to get to get the money with the provision that she gets a percentage of it if it comes in? And no fees paid if no money comes in.  You would not get the full amount this way, but no new fees would added to what you owe L, and she would then get paid on what you already owe.

Yes, this is exactly how it has worked in the past. It goes into what is essentially a trust or escrow account for my L, and she applies it directly to my balance. I don't even need to sign the check.  

It's odd what started me thinking about this. N/BPDx has been responsible for paying child care costs, which mostly amounted to summer camp. But S13 will be 14 this summer, and he has aged out of the camp where he has attended since he was 4. As part of the court order, N/BPDx has been paying member dues at this camp/club. Since there is no more camp there, there is no reason to pay member dues. I contacted the club and N/BPD is still paying them.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  

The camp/club fees are probably auto drafting from his paycheck and either he doesn't realize that S13 has aged out of camp, or he doesn't remember that he set it up as auto draft. N/BPDx was terrible at managing money. I was always the one paying attention.

I'm torn what to do. I really don't feel spiteful, but if I don't collect legal fees because I don't want to engage, then I don't tell him about the camp dues for the same reason.

[maxen]

so how's your energy? are you exhausted?

N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state.

do they know his history?

[livednlearned]

so how's your energy? are you exhausted?

Last fall I was exhausted. We were in court three times in August, twice in September, and three times in October. Right now, it's more like having a court hangover from all that.

N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state.

do they know his history?

Yes. Like other people here, when we did our financial settlement, I thought the way to minimize the conflict was to let N/BPDx have what he wanted. So I didn't get a very good financial settlement. One of the reasons my L has pressed so hard for legal fees is that she is irritated to no end that he is representing himself for free, and filing frivolous motions that I have to hire her to help me defend.

But you know how all of this goes. You just end up being in a long, protracted fight.

I don't know. I think I feel numb at this point, which is why it's hard to figure out what to do.

[maxen]

N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state.

do they know his history?

Yes. Like other people here, when we did our financial settlement, I thought the way to minimize the conflict was to let N/BPDx have what he wanted. So I didn't get a very good financial settlement.

that certainly would be angering. i was wondering if he's been brought to the attention of the bar association.

btw you have a very kindly lawyer.

[livednlearned]

N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state.

do they know his history?

Yes. Like other people here, when we did our financial settlement, I thought the way to minimize the conflict was to let N/BPDx have what he wanted. So I didn't get a very good financial settlement.

that certainly would be angering. i was wondering if he's been brought to the attention of the bar association.

My L brought this up at one point. We decided to not do anything because then it jeopardizes his job, which jeopardizes child support and alimony. Which is ending. L said that the gatekeeping order against an attorney would definitely get their attention. He could never get the job he has now if they knew. The state has a much more rigorous hiring standard.

But what, really, is there to gain?

btw you have a very kindly lawyer.

Yes, extremely kind. She has gone above and beyond for me. And she is an excellent tactical thinker. Might be the closest thing to an  in the legal profession.

[maxen]

i was wondering if he's been brought to the attention of the bar association.

My L brought this up at one point. We decided to not do anything because then it jeopardizes his job, which jeopardizes child support and alimony.

i understand.

But what, really, is there to gain?

for you nothing, but the bar would have an interest in the professionalism of their members. i'm just surprised they don't know. does he have to be reported or can the bar reach out and take notice? his actions seem egregious (he does too ).

[ForeverDad]

Can you have his work garnish his wages?  Is this something you could file on your own, with your lawyer there just for consultations and review of the paperwork?

Step back, get some emotional distance, imagine yourself a few years from now, with that perspective would you regret letting it go - or not?  Similarly, what would you advise someone in your situation?  Would not pursuing it enable more obstruction?

[livednlearned]

Can you have his work garnish his wages?  Is this something you could file on your own, with your lawyer there just for consultations and review of the paperwork?

Step back, get some emotional distance, imagine yourself a few years from now, with that perspective would you regret letting it go - or not?  Similarly, what would you advise someone in your situation?  Would not pursuing it enable more obstruction?

I feel as emotionally distant as I possibly could get. I'm even ok not doing anything.

But then I look at my credit card bill, and my school loans, and my legal bills, and I feel emotional about that. I'm eligible to have N/BPDx pay 75% of all S13's medical costs, including therapy and dental, which adds up. I've never collected, not for the last four years. I don't know why.   

When I started all this, I realized a boundary is a boundary is a boundary. If I didn't set a boundary just because I felt exhausted, I wouldn't have full custody and terminated visitation.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

Would you be awarded legal fees for this contempt filing too? And if so, would they be added to the $3600 that he isn't paying?

Or would getting them paid require a second contempt filing (assuming you do not get willing compliance).

But then I look at my credit card bill, and my school loans, and my legal bills, and I feel emotional about that. I'm eligible to have N/BPDx pay 75% of all S13's medical costs, including therapy and dental, which adds up. I've never collected, not for the last four years. I don't know why.   

Is this court ordered as well?

From a tactical point of view, is it better to do these together, or one at a time?

[livednlearned]

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

Would you be awarded legal fees for this contempt filing too? And if so, would they be added to the $3600 that he isn't paying?

That's how it worked in the past. The judge I had for four years rotated off the bench, so maybe it would be different with a new judge. But I wouldn't collect legal fees for this one, if they were awarded. That's why I think of it as $3600-$1200. My L also has a very nice tendency to round things down. So she might just charge me $1K. Maybe even less, I don't know.

Or would getting them paid require a second contempt filing (assuming you do not get willing compliance).

I assume I would not get willing compliance. 

But then I look at my credit card bill, and my school loans, and my legal bills, and I feel emotional about that. I'm eligible to have N/BPDx pay 75% of all S13's medical costs, including therapy and dental, which adds up. I've never collected, not for the last four years. I don't know why.   

Is this court ordered as well?

Yes. It goes all the way back to the temporary order.

From a tactical point of view, is it better to do these together, or one at a time?

Doing them together would make more sense. But then I would have some explaining to do. Why didn't I bring these expenses up before? Part of it was sheer overload. I would have to figure out what got covered by insurance, what didn't. And for a while there I was drowning in legal drama and school and single parenting, and that kind of paperwork was on the bottom of the list of things I most wanted to do. 

At the heart of the bills are therapy and assessments, and those add up into the thousands over the past four years. My behavioral health insurance isn't great. I also learned that it's important to pick a good T, and often they don't seem to take insurance, at least not where I live. And I enrolled S13 in a social skills class with a really good social worker, one of the best things I've ever done for S13. He likes it, and it's helped him a lot, but it's not covered by insurance at all.

I guess the question is whether a boundary like this matters when there is no relationship anymore. Kind of unusual for a custody situation, but that's where we're at. It's been quiet, and if I start this all up again, it will feel like I'm backsliding.

[Grey Kitty]

***NO*** This is NOT a relationship with your NPDx, and going back to court isn't re-starting the relationship.

Hmmm... .so perhaps ask him for the 75% of costs... .so he can ignore it... .so you can bring it up in court. And do it all together. Do you have some statute of limitations on the legal fees award that is coming up?

Here's a way of looking at it... .especially if you can combine things... .add up the combined amounts he owes you... .$3600 + 75% of S13 medical expenses. Perhaps just do a rough and quick estimate of medical expenses.

Then look at what it will cost you to get it. Legal fees. Time and energy. You've been through this crap enough with NPDx that you probably have a pretty good idea what it will be like.

The money is worth something to you. So is your peace of mind. When you set them all down on paper together, you will probably have a better idea whether it is worth it or not.

[ForeverDad]

I presume my court read my initial paperwork asking for reimbursement.  I had photocopied the bills, my emails to her and included my Certificates of Mailing.  Then the decision which was otherwise favorable said I hadn't proved I asked my ex for reimbursement?  I couldn't figure that out, unless it was that I didn't testify at the hearing about the papers originally filed.  (That was partly our strategy, we submitted the documents but focused on parenting issues so it wouldn't look like father was there just to get money or avoid paying money.)  In any case, my court ordered that only bills promptly submitted to the other, whatever that would mean, would be recognized as payable and so I figure since I didn't testify I had mailed them as the papers documented... .

So be prepared for older bills and reimbursement requests to be considered stale or too old.  But include them anyway in case the judge wants something to exclude.

[Nope]

You mention he's high on a bew relationship. I think it might honestly be worth trying to just ask. I mean, what do you have to lose? Could you simply send him an email being "nice". And say something like: Hey, I just wanted to let you know that S is too old to continue going to XYZ Camp so you don't have to keep paying on that. Also, can you please cut me a check for the $3600 for our last hearing? Thanks!"

Now, you he be a giant jerk about it? Yup. But with his new relationship in play he may want to look like a good guy and who knows he just may pay it. Especially since you can just say "the last hearing". So he can create the illusion in his own mind that the whole thing wasn't about what it was actually about. The only question us what do you havecto lose by saying it all casual like it's no biggie and of course he's a reasonable enough person to comply?

As for the medicals, you should check the rules in your state. In the state I am dealing with if you can prove you asked for the money and provides copies of the bills and proof you paid them, then a judge can order him to reimburse you. Because medical expenses (again this is state specific) are considered child care costs, you can give a copy of the order to child support enforcement and they'll enforce for you. This usually actually means something because they have some pretty persuasive enforcement techniques of their own.

[livednlearned]

Thanks everyone.

This is so hard. I'm emotionally 110% finished with it. But I did email my L to see what she had to say about filing another motion for contempt. She might know who the new judge is and have an angle on things I haven't considered.

It was way easier to deal with court when it had tangible effects on S13. Going to court just for the money is much harder emotionally than I thought. I was kinda hoping you all would say don't bother. 

About sending N/BPDx an email directly. Gah. Even high on a new relationship (assuming the idealization phase is still in play), he is not going to pay. He just isn't.

I'm also having a hard time whether to tell him that he can stop paying dues. In the past, it seems no matter whether I was trying to be fair or even help, I got my head bitten off.

Nope, that's a good idea to find out what the state laws might be re: medical expenses. It might be a straightforward process. FD, I'm sorry you even had to strategize around money vs child. I think that is definitely a bias dads have to deal with more than moms.

[Grey Kitty]

If you or S13 were getting some benefit from the dues it would be different. Just letting him bleed money for the membership because you won't contact him seems harsh and cruel.

A two-line email about the matter is all that would be required.

It doesn't sound like something I'd expect you to do, given the sort of values you normally express around here.

If you *REALLY* don't want to contact him in this matter, you could tell the organization he's paying... .officially cancel S13's membership, and ask them to notify NPDx that he's paying for a closed/aged out membership, so you don't have to contact him directly.

[livednlearned]

If you or S13 were getting some benefit from the dues it would be different. Just letting him bleed money for the membership because you won't contact him seems harsh and cruel.

A two-line email about the matter is all that would be required.

It doesn't sound like something I'd expect you to do, given the sort of values you normally express around here.

If you *REALLY* don't want to contact him in this matter, you could tell the organization he's paying... .officially cancel S13's membership, and ask them to notify NPDx that he's paying for a closed/aged out membership, so you don't have to contact him directly.

It isn't about spite -- I'm not wired that way. I really do see N/BPDx as someone who is ill, not evil.

And it isn't about the rude email that will come back from N/BPDx. That I can dismiss. I'm pretty good at that ninja move now.

It's about drawing his disordered attention to a place that S13 loves, especially at a time when I might be filing a court action. Does that make sense? So N/BPDx gets the motion in the mail, meanwhile I tell him he doesn't have to pay dues. And then N/BPDx does something harmful to S13 through the club. I don't know what. S13 has been looking forward his whole life to being a counselor in training, which is what he'll be doing this summer. The camp director said it's ok if S13's dad does not pay dues, they know S13 like family and will offer him a spot.

N/BPDx would try to sabotage that for S13 in retaliation for me filing a court motion. Then I'm trying to mop things up with the camp people, with S13 worried that maybe he can't work there. I don't know. There have been so many scenarios like this in the past, and even though I can usually pick up the pieces and we all move forward, it costs so much in emotional energy.

I might wait until after the summer to say something about ending the dues. That way, S13 can go to the pool as a member if he wants, and by then he'll have finished the training program without any interference from his dad.

[ForeverDad]

you could tell the organization he's paying... .officially cancel S13's membership, and ask them to notify NPDx that he's paying for a closed/aged out membership, so you don't have to contact him directly.

Hmm, I liked that idea, bummer that this is a seasonal expense.  Since it starts up again next summer, can the camp hold the dues as a credit toward future charges?  Or refund to you?  If he never complains, court will never do anything.  If he did complain at some point, would court would just tell him that any refund you got from his overpayment should be deducted from what he owes you?

[Nope]

Oh no! I got the impression since he aged out it was moot. If he's going to be a CIT there then, no. Don't bring the ex's a y attention to the place at all.

[livednlearned]

you could tell the organization he's paying... .officially cancel S13's membership, and ask them to notify NPDx that he's paying for a closed/aged out membership, so you don't have to contact him directly.

Hmm, I liked that idea, bummer that this is a seasonal expense.  Since it starts up again next summer, can the camp hold the dues as a credit toward future charges?  Or refund to you?  If he never complains, court will never do anything.  If he did complain at some point, would court would just tell him that any refund you got from his overpayment should be deducted from what he owes you?

He actually pays dues in quarterly installments. So in a sense, he has paid only one quarterly installment past what is necessary. He could've stopped at the end of summer 2014. We're talking about $400, maybe more if dues have gone up.

So by next summer, we would be talking $1200 give or take. I don't know if they can refund to me, but even if they could, doesn't that seem complicated? I don't trust court orders in these situations. I took my court order to have the title transferred from N/BPDx to me, and DMV would not honor it because it didn't have this or that and whatnot. Once you start waving a court order around, everyone gets nervous that more law suits will follow.

I would have to tell them, "Look, my ex owes me money. I want to collect that money through you guys. Let him pay quarterly until he gets to $3600, and then give that money to me.  

I can't see them going for that. Or am I missing something here.

Also, I don't think N/BPDx can file any motions at this point, even to get me to pay him for not saying that club dues were no longer required. And the order doesn't actually say he has to pay the club dues, he just did that to reduce how much he had to pay i camp, which is what he was responsible for in the order. So it's a grey area.

He sort of can file a motion for contempt against me, but the court won't hear them per the gatekeeping order. Not unless he gets a board-certified family law attorney to approve the motion. Would he do that? Hard to say, but I think not. He didn't file an appeal on our last hearing, which is a first. I think he is getting tired.

And Nope -- he has aged out of paying for camp. He is now eligible to be a counselor-in-training, so he'll still be active there. Although last summer he went to the pool once, since we have a pool at my apartment complex. And teenagers apparently are less interested in hanging out at pool with parents unless there are big pods of teenagers to hang out with. 

[Grey Kitty]

LnL, that sounds like it fits the values I've seen you express here all the time.

You want to avoid drama for S13, so you aren't even going to draw NPDx's attention to something that S13 cares about which he seems to have forgotten.

Risking that doesn't seem worth saving NPDx $400/quarter. You already said he's irresponsible with money, so this sort of thing happens all the time with him.

Any chance you have of getting the money refunded to you or applied to S13's later needs is a tiny bonus.



You still have a tough choice to make about trying to get money from NPDx.

He sort of can file a motion for contempt against me, but the court won't hear them per the gatekeeping order. Not unless he gets a board-certified family law attorney to approve the motion. Would he do that? Hard to say, but I think not. He didn't file an appeal on our last hearing, which is a first. I think he is getting tired.

This has some impact on your choice.

Going to court just for the money is much harder emotionally than I thought. I was kinda hoping you all would say don't bother. 

Nope. As Skip and others have said before... .good mental health is HARD. We're not letting you off the hook for making the best choices you can for yourself and S13.

[ForeverDad]

I don't trust court orders in these situations. I took my court order to have the title transferred from N/BPDx to me, and DMV would not honor it because it didn't have this or that and whatnot. Once you start waving a court order around, everyone gets nervous that more law suits will follow.

While DMV does need to be careful, in some states DMV is just needlessly paranoid and bureaucratic.  This was Brooklyn, NYC, and the office was downtown where I didn't trust the parking rules and space availability in all that congestion, so the car was left parked in its lot about 3 miles away.  This was all public transportation or walking.

• Visit #1 - Register car at central DMV.  Bring papers to insurance staff, they can't insure, they point out the new title's VIN has a single digit or letter typo, a clear entry error.



• Visit #2  - Back at DMV, DMV ignores my pleas it was their entry error, insisted I have to bring in a tracing of the car's VIN.  Get supplies but no room under windshield to trace anything.



• Visit #3  - Back at DMV, DMV still ignores my pleas it was their entry error, says alternate is to take a photo of VIN.  I run around trying to find someone with a Polaroid camera, this was mid-1990s, the era of film cameras and long before cell phone cameras.



• Visit #4  - Back at DMV, DMV still ignores my pleas it was their entry error, but accepts the polaroid snapshot, reprocesses the new corrected title.

[maxen]

not that this will help you now, but i can report that the NYC DMV has gotten better.

[livednlearned]

Always glad to hear a positive view on DMV even if it's nowhere near where I live 

So my L responded to an email I wrote her, and she said let's wait until alimony ends next month before filing a motion. Sometimes I think she knows my ex better than I do. It never occurred to me that filing a motion for contempt on one thing would make him not pay alimony this close to the end -- next month is the last check. This is one of the hardships of divorcing a BPD lawyer. He really knows how to make everything cost more. I would have to file a separate motion to collect the missing alimony, and it wouldn't be worth it, which he knows full well.

I'm going to have to think really hard about the medical expenses. It might be worth it to just throw it in there so that the judge can say no, like someone mentioned above. But then I have to do all that paperwork. Gah.

I'm leaning toward not saying anything about the camp dues until after the summer is over and S13 has been through the counselors in training program. N/BPDx probably won't notice -- he is truly awful at managing money. I feel bad for him thinking about how much he has earned and then wasted in his life. And I can justify my own values here because S13 will probably use the facilities this summer. Last summer, he didn't go on his own with friends because there were in camp all day, and had plenty of time at the pool. This summer, he won't be in camp, and I'll want him to get exercise and do something other than hang around the house.

I just have to remember to tell N/BPDx to cancel the membership at the end of summer, so I put it on my calendar.

Thanks for being a sounding board  . It always takes me a while to sort through these things.

[Swiggle]

You are always so helpful in your responses to others.

As I was reading through, it seems as though you want to do what normal, healthy people would do in regards to your ex paying the dues that he doesn't really need to. Being a kind person most would love to say "hey by the way I noticed you are still paying and you might have not realized you don't need to" BUT with people like our ex's that isn't our job any longer. Shouldn't it be his responsibility to manage his payments and to know when they are no longer needed? Although maybe I missed something that says you were required to let him know some sort of information around the dues payment.

If you aren't required to tell him, then I wouldn't. I sometimes have to remind myself that "that stopped being my job when we divorced" and don't feel guilty for it.

I do agree with your L about waiting until the last alimony bill is paid but I wouldn't let thousands of dollars go, unless of course it will cost more to get the funds. Hopefully when you cross that bridge it will be an easy email from your L to him and he will just pay. He may be difficult about the medical costs since you hadn't asked for them before but you won't know until you try so doing it all together sounds like a good plan.

again, if you aren't ordered to tell him about the dues at the end of the summer delete that off your calendar. Let him figure that out for himself, that is one less thing you have to put any energy into. And that isn't being spiteful that is not being responsible for someone else's stuff.

[livednlearned]

Let him figure that out for himself, that is one less thing you have to put any energy into. And that isn't being spiteful that is not being responsible for someone else's stuff.

I know what you mean, and believe me, after the hell we've been through, it would be easy to just let this drop. (It's not in the order that I need to notify him.)

I guess at this point it feels good to act halfway normal when it comes to him. It was really hard the first year or two after we divorced to have boundaries with N/BPDx -- it was a beast of effort and discomfort building a moat and a drawbridge after basically being a doormat my whole life. It made me feel like I was exactly the mean and heartless person he used to say I was.

But somehow the boundaries now feel like second nature. And then the court backed me up with some real boundaries, like terminating visitation.

I feel like I can have the values I have, and be consistent with them, and that's helping me stay steady whenever something to do with N/BPDx comes up. It's really all about me at this point.    How can I have my values while minimizing conflict? Something like that. I never had that before.

I'm also thinking that I'll just contact the camp and let them know and they can take it from there.

Unless there is a downside, which I can't think of at this point. S13 will be actively using the place this summer, so it won't be possible for N/BPDx to say anything.

[scraps66]

One thing I've grown tired of, grew tired of, is going back to court to "fix" some obvious mistake that took money out of my pocket, only to have more money taken out of my pocket, or to be further frustrated with some Master that wouldn't give me something that was obviously due me.  It may sound like a lot of money and I'm sure it is, is it likely that ex can do this smoothly?  Maybe not.  How good are the chances that the Judge gets pissed at ex and tells him to pay your fees for this ridiculous stuff.  maybe pretty high I would hope.  If that's the case, go for it.   

[NewWays]

livednlearned... .

As you have advised me many times you have to decide what is the number one thing you want and then... .the cost/benefit of what you finally decide is your #1 choice at the top rung of the ladder.

ForeverDad points that out... .and... .I think poses a great question about what will your view be in a few years?

We all have experienced the legal costs that seem to never end and the financial stress we now endure... .but you have clearly posted your decision tasks in your post that I think are in front of you.


I'm really, really, really tired of courtrooms and motions and filings and big fat envelopes stuffed with legal documents.

   We all have walked a mile in your shoes!  And you know from your experience that added engagement with your attorney and the court will only extend the receipt of many more full Kevlar envelopes chock full with Xerox copies, copies of motions filed in the court and notices to appear that are a part of what continued engagement automatically presents.

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

     You know that if you only spend the $1200 for contempt since he has not provided you what the judge ordered will probably end up to be $1,500, or $1,800 or even $2,000!  Every time the judge and my attorney outlined next steps and time lines... .it always took more time and clearly added to more legal fees than what was expected.  While gaining the legal fees is attractive if it costs you excessive money to get it only you can decide that.  If you end up spending $2,200 to get the $3,600 and you actually realize a net of $1,400... .what is that worth it to you financially and emotionally?

But with full custody and no visitation, N/BPDx is out of the picture.

     How do you value this with all the other items at this time that make up your life?... .your graduate school work?... .Alimony and financial support ending?... .Outstanding legal fees?... .Out of the Picture?

Out of the picture takes many of us a very long time (... .and a lot more money) to achieve.

What is your #1 priority?

p.s. - It feels unusual giving input or my POV to someone as informed, wise and a great coach as you have been in the past!  A belated thank you to you and all the members of your team for all the great insight and help you all have provided to me!

NewWays