collecting legal fees, or moving on

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Thanks everyone. It always harder to see your own stuff clearly. It's so much easier to see the clear path when it's happening to someone else, so I appreciate the input!

N/BPDx paid alimony for January. There is only one more month of alimony, and then he's done. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do  . My L said I don't have to attend, and chances are high that N/BPDx will be faced with incarceration if he does not pay. He's been to this rodeo a few times and she doesn't think a judge will give him any rope.

When I was starting up with the legal system, having consistent boundaries was my compass. If it was better for S13, that was my compass. If it was written in the judge's ruling, that was my compass. It helped to have something solid so when I felt turned around by my own dynamic (tendency to roll over) and his dynamic (threaten), I just went with values/boundaries.

But the most shocking thing happened -- which is that the judge terminated visitation. I guess I'm feeling like I won, so why kick the hornet's nest? I still have this tiny bit of guilt about receiving alimony, even though it has cost me so much more to stand my ground in court. Even though he makes so much more money than me. I guess I've never liked the feeling of having any dependence on him.

I don't know. It's the emotional repulsion I feel for being in court. I don't know that I can bring myself to go back without it being a matter tied directly to S13's wellbeing.

[livednlearned]

Thanks everyone. It always harder to see your own stuff clearly. It's so much easier to see the clear path when it's happening to someone else, so I appreciate the input!

N/BPDx paid alimony for January. There is only one more month of alimony, and then he's done. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do  . My L said I don't have to attend, and chances are high that N/BPDx will be faced with incarceration if he does not pay. He's been to this rodeo a few times and she doesn't think a judge will give him any rope.

When I was starting up with the legal system, having consistent boundaries was my compass. If it was better for S13, that was my compass. If it was written in the judge's ruling, that was my compass. It helped to have something solid so when I felt turned around by my own dynamic (tendency to roll over) and his dynamic (threaten), I just went with values/boundaries.

But the most shocking thing happened -- which is that the judge terminated visitation. I guess I'm feeling like I won, so why kick the hornet's nest? I still have this tiny bit of guilt about receiving alimony, even though it has cost me so much more to stand my ground in court. Even though he makes so much more money than me. I guess I've never liked the feeling of having any dependence on him.

I don't know. It's the emotional repulsion I feel for being in court. I don't know that I can bring myself to go back without it being a matter tied directly to S13's wellbeing.

[maxen]

It's the emotional repulsion I feel for being in court.

that's strong language. i think you know which way you want to go.

[ForeverDad]

But the most shocking thing happened -- which is that the judge terminated visitation. I guess I'm feeling like I won, so why kick the hornet's nest?

This isn't a comment to pull you in either direction but it's been often noted that what a parent does or doesn't do often has little impact on the disordered parent's actions.  So while you seeking compliance with the order might trigger another overreaction, he might overreact on almost anything else, sooner or later.  Yes, he's been quiet lately, probably blaming you that he can't see his son, but keep in mind there's a game-changer gatekeeping order now.  So it comes down to whether you think he can find a way to restart the chaos - somewhat unlikely the way things are now - or just fuss in court and then write another check at the last second.

[livednlearned]

But the most shocking thing happened -- which is that the judge terminated visitation. I guess I'm feeling like I won, so why kick the hornet's nest?

This isn't a comment to pull you in either direction but it's been often noted that what a parent does or doesn't do often has little impact on the disordered parent's actions.  So while you seeking compliance with the order might trigger another overreaction, he might overreact on almost anything else, sooner or later.  Yes, he's been quiet lately, probably blaming you that he can't see his son, but keep in mind there's a game-changer gatekeeping order now.  So it comes down to whether you think he can find a way to restart the chaos - somewhat unlikely the way things are now - or just fuss in court and then write another check at the last second.

I'm in a weird frontier here, though. Aren't I? There's this big expanse in front of me where it seems he has very limited ability to mess with me legally, and he can't do a whole lot to mess with S13's wellbeing and care, including the psychiatrist he is about to start seeing. Or the high school he wants to apply to. It's just me with my legal guardianship, and no threat of parental alienation, no one undermining things and making S13 doubt himself.

So it's a different kind of hornet's next than the usual fare on this board. We had the custody battle of a lifetime and I came away with more than most people could even hope for. Maybe for a few thousand dollars, it's time to just let this all go?

[GaGrl]

Is the total of legal bills he was ordered to pay, plus the medical portion for which he's responsible really "only a few thousand dollars," or are you minimizing it? Are you setting a precedent for his refusing to reimburse medical for how many more years? What might that cost you?

[Grey Kitty]

I get not kicking a hornet's nest.

I agree not to kick it before the alimony winds down.

However... .what kind of sting does the hornet have anymore?

He isn't in your life or S13's life. All he does is write a check for things he's legally obligated to pay... .or NOT write a check for something he's legally obligated to pay.

I'm having trouble with the logic of not going after him for money owed to you... .because he can choose not to pay money he is owed to you!

[livednlearned]

I'm having trouble with the logic of not going after him for money owed to you... .because he can choose not to pay money he is owed to you!

I'm having trouble with the logic too. 

It might be that charging uphill all these years made sense when it was about protecting S13. I found extra pockets of strength and stamina for him.

A friend compared it to surgery. She said it's like I spent 4 years in a hospital to help S13 heal, which was a no-brainer. Now I'm presented with the equivalent of an optional surgery for myself, and it's hard to rev up and choose to go back.

But for some reason, what Gagrl said about minimizing the costs and setting a precedent for reimbursing future medical expenses made me feel some of my doormat stuff. Even a few thousand dollars is a lot to me right now.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm having trouble with the logic of not going after him for money owed to you... .because he can choose not to pay money he is owed to you!

I'm having trouble with the logic too. 

You really sound like you keep trying to talk yourself out of it. And I don't think it is working.

[livednlearned]

You really sound like you keep trying to talk yourself out of it. And I don't think it is working.

I think this is about guilt.

N/BPDx was terrible with money. He was a successful (former) trial attorney, but when I met him, his finances were a mess. He had collections agencies calling and had a long history of making bad choices. I took over the finances and we eventually smoothed things out, although he continued to be an impulsive spender. As part of my exit plan, I started putting a portion of my paycheck into a separate account and did that for about a year. Close to the end of our marriage, he insisted on taking over the finances and wanted passwords and account information. I stalled while getting my exit plan in place, but then one day got an automatic notification from one of my credit card companies that the card had been canceled. That's the day I left. I went and took out half of what we had so I could support me and S13 until we mediated our settlement.

I feel guilt about all this. I understand it was necessary to hide money and leave like that, but even writing it down here I still feel the need to justify it in the court of public opinion. I helped him stabilize his finances, and I worked even though my salary barely covered the child care costs for S13. That's not necessary to share, but I feel defensive about the way I left. For the last four years, every child support/alimony check has my name with a $ in it instead of the letter "s". Every email I get it's the same thing.

He feels he put me through my master's degree, which I managed to finish without taking out any school loans. I worked part-time while I was in school, and also taking care of S13.

I have some messed up dynamics around money and worth because of FOO that's in here too.

So not wanting to collect the legal fees is tied up in this. If I go after the money, then I'm the money-obsessed villainous ex-wife. If I let it go, then I get to make the point that I'm not all about money.

This is the dark narrative running through all this, in addition to how much I just don't want to go back to court.

[Grey Kitty]

You've done a HUGE amount of work on yourself to get where you are.  Really, I find your story on these boards to be one of the most inspiring ones!

If you are letting your NPDex guilt you about money and influence your thinking (like crossing the s to a $ in your name on the checks), you have found some more work for yourself.

And you are way too self-aware to really let yourself completely off this hook 

One of the things I've learned... .just because doing something feels uncomfortable doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

I believe that once you get through YOUR dark narrative around money, your FOO, and your NPDex, you will be able to choose how to deal with this in a way that feels clearly right to you.

[livednlearned]

One of the things I've learned... .just because doing something feels uncomfortable doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

Isn't that the truth. Uncomfortable was my middle name there for a while. I was hoping I could just coast here for a while, out of the watchful eyes of bpdfamily  just enjoying the breeze.

And I know, you're right. And any money that comes in just goes to debt anyway. It's not like I'm headed to the Bahamas anytime soon with bunches of cash.

I'm giving myself until Feb 10 to decide. By then I'll know whether he paid the last month of alimony. And by then I need to decide if I'm going to go after medical expenses too. It's a really weird feeling to have full and total custody of S13, but still be getting money from N/BPDx. I never really processed that. But as my L says over and over, no one did this to N/BPDx except himself. I have to keep telling myself that.

Thanks for the tough love, GK. 

[NewWays]

Lived N Learned... .

I really do like the bunch of cash and headed off to the Bahamas!  That sounds great! There is nothing wrong with dreaming once in awhile!

Do not forget how much you know and have knowledge of... .to help you make your decision.

You will make the right decision... .the one that is right for you and your S13.

Hope all is well with you.

NewWays

[Grey Kitty]

Ding!

You gave yourself a deadline of yesterday. Have you decided?

[livednlearned]

Ding!

You gave yourself a deadline of yesterday. Have you decided?

I meant to respond last week but got distracted.

Yes. I'm going to do it.    I wrote to my L and asked if I have to appear in court, thinking that "no" would help me make my decision. But something happened and I just decided that even knocking off $1000 from my legal bills is worth it.

He paid the last month of alimony.

The other issue is whether to look back at 4.5 years worth of medical/dental bills and decide whether to have him pay. It would probably total $1500, but that would be a whole new motion and for that, I am done. No more new things.

It would be amazing if N/BPDx just paid up on the legal sanctions. I'll let ya know. 

[ForeverDad]

My court stated that I had to prove I had sent copies of bills and asked for reimbursement, which I had been doing.  It was even submitted to the court but apparently because my lawyer didn't directly question me about it - not wanting the case to appear to be about money - the court used it as an excuse to say I hadn't proved notice even though it was right there in the court papers.  Then the court added that I had to promptly share such bills with her in order to not be 'stale'.

So going after medical expenses from years ago may be iffy, especially if you don't prove you shared copies and reimbursement requests with him.

[livednlearned]

Update.

Anyone want to guess how this is working out?  

N/BPDx did not respond to my L's email. She took a long time to get to it, and then didn't charge me for having to dig up the documents to clarify what the amount was, so that's nice. I noticed she gave me a professional courtesy discount back in January, so I asked her about it. She said I've been paying down my balance regularly and it's never late, so it was a bonus  

N/BPDx logic is: LnL wants me to pay her legal fees, so I won't pay child support.

It's two weeks into April, and he still has not sent child support.

Fortunately, I've been really careful with money and have been saving a small emergency fund. This happened one time before and I realized I was getting too comfortable with regular child support, so I've been trying to save half when it comes in. Another member suggested I do something like that and I'm so glad she did    So I'm not in a panic, at least not yet. I have about 4 months I can go before that fund runs out.

Even the smallest, easiest thing has to be difficult. It's the only consistent thing in all this mess.  

[whirlpoollife]

N/BPDx logic is: LnL wants me to pay her legal fees, so I won't pay child support.

It's two weeks into April, and he still has not sent child support.

What a jerk to put it nicely.   .  He is employed and has the money.  It doesn't seem like he's paid the legal fees either.

The entitlememt mentality is imbreeded, but even though it's part of their PD,  including my xh , know exactly what they are doing.  They know we won't tell the kids , so the not paying support is aimed at the adult.

[Nope]

So he's back to that. Does he really want to walk into court owing both the L fees AND back CS? Guess so.

[livednlearned]

So he's back to that. Does he really want to walk into court owing both the L fees AND back CS? Guess so.

Back when we were in court all the time, I wondered if he liked being in front of the judge. I think he did.

They take CS seriously here in my state. I suspect he is just drawing this out to send a message, and will eventually pay on his own accord. The process to garnish wages takes a while, and I know he would not want his employer to know that was going on.

Still. I thought maybe he would be tired of this, but I guess not. 

[Grey Kitty]

He's no longer being well behaved. You might as well ask him for the part he's supposed to pay for your son's counseling, and other such expenses now, I guess.

Apparently he'll only pay when it is keeping him out of jail.

[livednlearned]

Apparently he'll only pay when it is keeping him out of jail.

I think you're right.

And if we end up in court again, I might ask for the medical costs from the psychiatrist.

I don't know.

There's a part of me that doesn't want N/BPDx to even know that this psychiatrist exists. Every single mental health professional that N/BPDx has come into contact with, he eventually files a complaint against them with their professional board/association.

[ForeverDad]

Paying child support is a major hot button for the courts, almost more than any other infraction barring actionable child abuse, etc.  Most courts would not be pleased about this.

Don't tell the court that you save half his CS, in case he retorts that he's giving too much CS.  Just say that without his CS you've had to use your Emergency Fund to pay expenses while he has stopped paying CS.  You may need to file paperwork for the CS before you appear for the Contempt of Court legal fees.  Do you have a state agency that pursues unpaid CS or is it left up to you?

[livednlearned]

Don't tell the court that you save half his CS, in case he retorts that he's giving too much CS.  Just say that without his CS you've had to use your Emergency Fund to pay expenses while he has stopped paying CS. 

Good point! Thanks FD.

My BPD radar tells me that he will pay. He has enough narcissism that getting the state involved over this will be too humiliating (he works for the state). We'll see.

I saw him driving this morning. He has a new car, which explains why I stopped seeing him around town. His old car was very distinct and easy to spot, and now he has a nondescript car. When he saw me, he had a big smile on his face 

[maxen]

Anyone want to guess how this is working out?  

it's going perfectly!

[reads rest of post]

oh.

He has a new car

grrrrrrrrrr