Boundary options when kids are involved...

[Crumbling]

 

Being in a r/s with a pwBPD is mind bogglingly difficult... .throw kids into the mix and it must be so overwhelming every day, for the non in the relationship.

We have no kids at home and when I started to set firm boundaries with my BPDh, it was relatively easy for me to have my bag packed, sitting in a corner of the bedroom at my ready should his actions break my boundary, and mine was pretty straight forward.  - "If I feel like I am in real physical danger of you again, then I am leaving and there is no guarantee I will be back."  It worked for us.  But I'm one person and at the time, I had my own vehicle and it was fairly easy to implement, if need be.

I was protecting myself.  Even willing to pay the cost of loosing everything to keep myself safe.  It made such a difference in my mindset.  I had a plan and it gave me strength.

When I imagine parents of young children being in this situation, I am just stunned by the magnitude of emotion they must feel, and the caged-in feeling they must carry continually.  It makes things so much more complicated when you have those little lives to be accountable to, as well as yourself.  We all want what is best for our kids... .but what does that look like?  What happens when what is best for the kids isn't best for you?  What measures, other than total separation and divorce, have others put in place to help them feel less caged-in and strengthened by knowing they have a plan in place?   

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[formflier]

 

It's tough... .because as a parent... .you have to protect your kids.  In a way you are trying to protect the pwBPD from the disorder... .or themselves... .however you want to look at it.

The key is to think about what has happened so far... .and decide if you are ok with how you handled it.  Develop boundaries.

Then... .do some general thinking about if X happens in our house... .to my kids... or "with" my kids.  I will do Y.

Don't make the list too long... .the presentation of how it actually happens won't be exactly the way you planned... .that's why a general idea is important... .and to make sure you are educated on what is healthy... and what is not.

Remember... .they are kids... .not china dolls.  You are not so much trying to nip "one time events" in the bud... .as alter long term patterns of behavior.

Personal story:  I was being "pushed out" of discipline decisions in our house (this is from about 9 months ago)... .it kept getting "worse" and worse.  Spankings were harder... .yelling louder.  Absolutely zero accountability... .

I was fairly new to BPD land... .so... .can't really say what I would do different now in that exact situation... .but.

When the "whipping of a century" started... .and I'm not exaggerating... .I have never heard such a horrible thing in my life.

I turned on my voice recorder... .ran across the house... .and when I got in the room she was attempting to spank three kids.  I still don't know if I saved one or not... .but I stood in front of one kid... .and a big standoff ensued.

During counseling the next day she refused so sign off (or anything written) about no more corporal punishment until there was mutual agreement.  (note:  I do believe in a "biblical based spanking"... .what happened was not that)

Anyway... .because she would not put in writing... .I made a report to Department of Social Services.  They investigated.  Big mess.  Separation for a while.  But because of DSS... .we were forced to go to family counseling for a while.  That got things on the "right track"... .not fixed... but heading down a path towards healthy.

I am not going back to unhealthy... .NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

And... .to my knowledge there has not been a spanking in the house since that night.  I still believe in a biblical spanking.  We have no business even talking about that in our house... .I doubt we ever will.

[Crumbling]

So, now, after that experience, you have a solid boundary:

If she gets out of control with her discipline, then I will call DSS... .yes?

[formflier]

So, now, after that experience, you have a solid boundary:

If she gets out of control with her discipline, then I will call DSS... .yes?

"I will act... ."

I'll have to see exactly what happens to figure out the other part... what I will do.

For all that are reading this... .while my situation turned out OK... .there were no bruises or marks.  The law in this state says that unless there are marks... there is a limited amount that DSS can do.

In my case DSS shined the light... .and "made" us go to family T.

Good topic to think about ahead of time... .because you may not be able to "walk out".

For instance... .what if the pwBPD has ahold of a kid and won't let go... .?

In my instance... .I think... .I would attempt to talk things down.  The feisty part of my says I would pull out phone and start the video.  That's great for court... and cops... .but might "inflame" the situation at the moment.

Are there other people around... .?  There are so many variables... .

I live in a city limit... .911 response would be quick.  However... .you don't want to inflame the situation before police show up... .so does that mean you dial 911... put cell phone in pocket... .and let the dispatchers listen (they also record)... .they have a protocol for this (I'm a government type... .so I know about all this stuff... actually kinda interesting... )

[Notwendy]

Formflyer, I agree with calling DSS if she hurts the kids, not just for their safety but for their own boundaries. And while you should not divide them between good dad/bad mom, please be honest with them to the best that they can understand that this behavior is not their fault.

It is hard to enforce boundaries on a PD spouse unless you are there with them 24/7. They are going to split, project and imagine and act on that, and you have no control over them. In my case, I knew that my H had rages, but only with me. I'm not labeling him with BPD at this point, but he does have enough of the traits to have made the relationship difficult and the information on this board is helpful to me.  He would never harm us. However, if he was stressed, he might be triggered into a rage, and little kids are stressful. Also he had no interest in child care when they were little. I took most of it on. I think it was better that way, but I was also able to stay home with them since he worked - and wanted it that way.

Dad however, had to work. He was wise enough to have sitters when we were little, but when we were older we were on our own. He didn't allow us to stand up to mom which let her do what she wanted. She didn't hurt us physically- she was actually very petite so we were bigger, but coming home from school to find mom drunk and raging, was terrifying. Still, I think we could have handled it better if he had been truthful to us, instead of letting her blame her drinking on us and not say anything, and if we were allowed to have boundaries, a safe person to call, and not have to keep it all secret.

I am going to address spanking.  Even if you believe in it biblically, consider that a spanking in a loving stable home with healthy boundaries won't have the impact a spanking in a chaotic home would. We were spanked a few times when we were little, but we were also emotionally violated so we could not own our own minds or bodies.  In addition, we were subjected to a lot of body shame. My mom projected her eating disorder on to me. She called me fat and I was not. Mom also had poor boundaries when discussing sexual topics when we were teens.

Boundaries on your spouse may or may not be effective, but your kids deserve to have their own. Emotionally they need to know that they are not responsible for mom's behavior. They need to know what is their stuff and what is hers to deal with. They also need to know that nobody gets to hurt their body. ( maybe the doctor when they need a shot). 

I won't say don't have kids because I am glad I am here, and there were also good family times. However, know that your kids will need counseling and let them have it so they can work out the issues and go on to have their own healthy relationships. Also, when there are kids, put their needs first. The PD parent won't necessarily know how to do this well, even if they love them. Bring  healthy adults and role models into their lives. I am most grateful for the aunts and mothers of my friends who were role models for me.

[believer55]

I certainly agree with all that has been said about protecting children from any kind of physical force. In my case my major struggle is that I left my children's father nearly 10 years ago because he was showing unhealthy substance abuse behaviours and his treatment of me was not good. I looked at my daughter (toddler then) and thought how can I let her think that this is the way a man and woman should live together. That made my mind up to leave. Fast forward 10 years and I am engaged to a man who I firmly believe has BPD (seeing psych soon) and the verbal abuse he spouts at me in front of kids is as you would believe. I now have the guilt when I look at my daughter (now 13) and son (11) that I have moved them into this situation for 50% of their time and it is once again a completely unmhealthy version of a r/s. My daughter tries to comfort me and worries about me when she is at her Dads. She is having tummy and sleep problems and I can not help but think these are as a result of my choices. This man did not show these behaviours before we moved in and they are getting worse. I feel I have let my children down immensely and am putting them through unneccessary emotional turmoil. Thoughts? How do I protect/support them?

[formflier]

 

In my case... .I also had seen how my wife's sister's divorce went.  She has same traits as my wife.

Horrible.

My situation is much better than that... .and I think healthier for the kids. 

If I hadn't seen how bad the divorce was... .I might have thought divorce would be an option.

[MissyM]

My kids have their own therapist, which has been really good for them.  My daughter very quickly speaks up to my dBPDh, he usually backs down from her.  My son gets quiet and let's him say whatever he wants.  My dBPDh has never been physically violent with the children, with him it is verbal. My son is working in therapy to speak up.  I have to model for him how that is done and step in, if my dBPDh says something out of line.  I am working on being gentler and kinder when I step in, and help my son learn how to do this.  My dBPDh quite often says things that he doesn't realize are mean (they are things his father said to him) but they are emotionally and psychologically harmful.  When my dBPDh and I are further along in our marital therapy, the children's therapist wants him to come in with the children.

If my dBPDh is in a bad place, I don't usually leave him alone with the kids but have them go somewhere in public.  Now that he is doing much better, doing lot of therapy and 12 step work, he is much better with them. 

[Crumbling]

I feel I have let my children down immensely and am putting them through unneccessary emotional turmoil.

  

I've been where you are. I have harboured so much guilt about choices I've made when my kids were small.  I see them struggling with things now, that I know are in part because of choices I've made and it almost debilitates me.  But a recent conversation I had with my now adult son helped a lot. 

He told me that he understands the struggles we had when he was growing up, and the challenges, and he knows in his heart that I did what I could under the circumstances to the best of my abilities, and that he couldn't really imagine me doing anything other than what I did.  And that he loves me for it all - the good and the bad, because it helped him to see that no matter what the circumstances are, you keep going and you keep following your heart no matter what.

It was a very healing conversation for me.  And if I could get in a time machine and talk to your kids in fifteen years, my bet is, they would say the same things as my son did.  They know your heart, Believer.  They feel the love that drives the decisions and that is what matters.  The guilt you harbour will only aid to fuel your self hate.

I know, hindsight is 20/20 and it's easier said than done... .but... .I'd rather you have the chance to start forgiving yourself now, rather than 15yrs from now, like me.    

[Notwendy]

Missy- what you are doing is great.

Forgive yourself- you did the best you could. Part of my own T was forgiving my parents, and also myself. It was natural for me, as a child and teen, with no experience to be critical of my parents. I think all teens are in a way. I always wondered why my dad didn't leave my mom. I also hated my mom- something teen girls are prone to do and also for her behaviors.

However, relationships are complicated. I realize that what went on between my parents was far more complex than I knew, and I'm trying my best in the relationship I have now. I don't see my parents as all good or all bad, and I tolerate that my kids see me as a human with good and bad points. I do think protecting kids is a priority and boundaries are crucial, so some aspects of my life and relationships are private. However, they are aware that I go to marriage T and co-dependency groups. Talking about my H is off limits. I will not use them in a triangular way like my mother did. However, my mom is manipulative and has poor boundaries so I have explained her disorder to them. I never left them alone with her when they were little, but I am less concerned about it now because they know what to do and how to handle it.

My H never raged or criticized my kids, but the few times he lost his temper with them, he has felt very bad about it. For their sake, I tried to reduce the stress on him because he is better at holding it together when he isn't stressed. We all are. He is a loving and generous father to them and now they they are older and less demanding for their personal needs, their relationship is good.

In a loving home, a parental mistake like losing temper-as long as it isn't abuse- has far less impact when the parent owns it than in the denial pattern of a PD.  My mom, and then my dad since she triggered him too, would rage at us, say the most horrible things, and then the next day act as if nothing had happened. If we asked or said anything about it, we were punished. It was as if they had a magic dry erase board that undid everything and we were back to normal until the next cycle.

My H does the same thing, and why I never made the connection for so long, I don't know. He'd rage, say awful things that hurt my feelings, then I'd lose it and he'd calmly watch me be the out of control one. The next day was the magic rewind button. All is fine and you'd better be fine too. If I asked about anything he said, he'd deny it or accuse me of trying to ruin the marriage by holding a grudge. He said "every day is a new day and what happened yesterday doesn't matter". Maybe that's what his parents did too.

However, this doesn't fly with kids. It's a gaslighting really, to tell kids that what they thought happened didn't happen. "Mommy didn't get drunk and rage all over the place. We are all a happy family". So for my kids, I am accountable for my mistakes and although I think I am pretty calm with them, if I am tired, make a mistake, don't follow up on something, or they ask me about something, I apologize, tell them I am sorry and yes, they are correct. I respect their boundaries so that they grow up with good boundaries. This doesn't mean I don't parent them, use discipline when needed, but it should not be shaming or degrading.

Parents, apologize to your kids if you need to. It goes a long way. Occasionally my mom will express regret in an off handed way, for what she did when we were kids but I realize this is probably the best apology she can do.  I still have to maintain some distance from her so I don't get triggered, or manipulated into being her enabler, but seeing her is so much easier now because I manage my own feelings better, and I think, after a lot of work, I've forgiven her.

[Crumbling]

Parents, apologize to your kids if you need to. It goes a long way. Occasionally my mom will express regret in an off handed way, for what she did when we were kids but I realize this is probably the best apology she can do.  I still have to maintain some distance from her so I don't get triggered, or manipulated into being her enabler, but seeing her is so much easier now because I manage my own feelings better, and I think, after a lot of work, I've forgiven her.

Good point, Notwendy.  My conversation with my son started that way - with me apologizing to him for the way my choices had effected him.  It is important to own your choices, for yourself and as an example for your kids to follow.

Thanks for sharing!