Do people with BPD believe their lies?

[glaciercats]

I was wondering if people suffering from BPD actually believe their own lies?  It seems like they tell so many.  From little white lies to huge painful lies.  And from my experience with my ex she has her childhood totally distorted.  I have spoken with her family, without her knowing, about things she said happened when she was a child.  Some of the things did actually happen, but not in the way she spoke of them.  Like for instance some things that she said happened to her really happened to her mother or another member of her family.  But she swears it happened to her.  Some of the lies are so small like when she told me she went out to buy milk, but when I came home there was no milk in the fridge.  To huge lies about abuse that could ruin people.

It's like she has no perception of what's real and what's imaginary.  She has made members of her family and past friends and partners out to be these horrible people.  She is so convincing with her stories and when you look into her eyes it really looks like she believes these things have happened to her.  It's scary really.

Deep down she really seems to have a good heart, but I can not believe anything that she has ever told me unless I witnessed it first hand.  This has really done so much damage to me.  I am trying to repair myself one day at a time!

[fromheeltoheal]

I was wondering if people suffering from BPD actually believe their own lies?  

It's like she has no perception of what's real and what's imaginary.  

Yes, it's a tool.  We all do that to some extent, reframe the past in ways that feel better in our heads, but someone with a personality disorder that results in extremely strong emotions they can't deal with otherwise, warping the facts to fit the feelings is an option.  And when you practice long enough, like a lifetime, you get very good at modifying the truth to feel better.  Feelings are facts to a borderline, some more extreme than others, and if you work hard enough at it, the version in your head is the perception, it has to be, it's mandatory.  Of course you have to get very good at it; I caught my ex in a few lies and confronted her, and she immediately melted into a puddle of shame, couldn't look me in the eye, and needed immediate ice cream, her drug of choice when life sucked.  And that shame would have a residual effect that showed up as rage a few hours later, never a dull moment.

It's scary really.

 

Yes, mental illness is scary, especially when it catches us off guard, and everything we believed turns out to be untrue, it's like living an episode of the Twilight Zone, with all the mind warp that goes with it.

[glaciercats]

Yes feelings are facts to them.  It was like we couldn't have what I called an ordinary conversation.  We couldn't talk about how the day went or about what happened at work or with co-workers, or family and friends.  Or about things that are going on in the world.  It seemed every conversation always went back to her emotions and feelings.  She would tune out if I talked about rational everyday type of things.  And every time I caught her in a lie she would tell me that she could provide proof that she was telling me the truth.  I think by her just saying she could show proof made her think I would just take her word for it.  At first I did but later on when I would ask to see the proof it could never be provided.  She would turn it around on me and make me feel bad for not believing her.  Like how dare me for not just trusting her.  Then she would kind of do the same thing, just stop talking look down until I let it go.  She would go to her stash of junk food to make her feel better too.

I feel like my mind is totally warped now.  Exactly like the Twilight Zone!  Even after everything I went through I can't stop worrying about her.  Deep down under all of these demons she really does have a good heart.  I so wish she would seek medical treatment for this. But I can no longer be her doormat no matter how much I care.

[myself]

Deep down, we do all have hearts, minds, and spirit.

We each have chances to rise above our problems, too.

Disordered or not. Handicapped or not. Etc.

Many do not face themselves until there's real adversity.

But those who do can overcome even the worst of it.

With help or not, it's on each of us to take whichever steps.

My now-ex has every positive possibility available to her.

Her pains and fears have warped her own reality most of all.

All I can do is wish her the best and let go. The rest is up to her.

[glaciercats]

So true.  There are many people that overcome many types of adversity and handicaps.  There are people that have had terrible upbringings that have turned out to be some of the best people you have ever meet.  Every one has it inside them to make changes in there life.  They just have to be willing and they have to put in the work.  No one can do it for them.  There are people right here on this site that have dealt with BPD and are getting help and getting better.  So I know it can be done.  Sometimes we just have to hit rock bottom.  Then you can either decide to go up or sideways.

[fromheeltoheal]

We couldn't talk about how the day went or about what happened at work or with co-workers, or family and friends.  Or about things that are going on in the world.  It seemed every conversation always went back to her emotions and feelings.

And that's because she's feeling everything strongly all the time and containing, soothing or getting rid of those emotions is a full time job.  Someone with cancer on chemotherapy isn't going to be too interested in discussing world events, it's going to be all about them at that point, need-driven and in frequent pain.

She would turn it around on me and make me feel bad for not believing her.

 

No one can make you feel anything unless you let them.  Of course having let our boundaries down in the name of building a relationship and creating intimacy, and then discovering we let a Trojan horse through the gates, is the reason this site exists.

I feel like my mind is totally warped now.

 

I did too, but the good news is once I got my feet back on the ground I began to appreciate my life that much more, the little things mattered more, simplicity became attractive, life got richer, one of the gifts of these relationships.  

Take care of you!

[LeftSidePain]

My Ex lies unconditionally for just about any reason for anything at all. I caught her in many little lies and called her on them, but really never focused on them or made an issue. I just told her she was full of it and I knew it was a lie and moved on.

Yesterday I was wondering why I was shuffling our children between multiple sitters and figured it was due to her leaving state. It was my assumption she was staying a couple days with him.

I asked my eldest yesterday where's her mom at and she said "with the OM. Didn't you know? Mom said she told you." I told her she didn't and we both just rolled our eyes. Simple. She never had to tell my eldest she told me that and she never had to keep it a secret from me. It's just a sick game to play.

Together we had 4 unplanned pregnancies with 2 of them miscarrying. That is a fact something you cannot gaslight or distort. I told her that during our 15 years together with her refusal of getting on BC we've had 4 unplanned pregnancies. She denied that. Looked right at me and said no that's not true.

I had to point out to her that two of those unplanned pregnancies are our eldest and youngest. The other two she miscarried and I took her to the hospital for both of those.

She smiled looked at the floor and clenched her fists and shook a bit. Then said "Yes that's right." and kept talking like it wasn't mentioned.

[Copperfox]

I feel like my mind is totally warped now.  Exactly like the Twilight Zone! 

This is one of the things that still bothers me about the relationship, and one of things I am working through.  She did believe her lies, as others have pointed out, because feelings=facts to her.  But really what bothers me is that I realize I do the same thing, perhaps to a lesser extent.  In some ways, I have done the same thing with the story of the relationship itself, rewriting it based on my new-found change in perceptions of her and what happened. 

Guess I used to be a little innocent, even naive, in my beliefs about love and relationships.  But we all create our own reality based on what we believe, how we feel, and what we want.  pwBPD are just really good at it.  The question for me is what I can learn about myself from that, and how I be better grounded in the future, and not caught up in my own illusions.  BPD can be a great, though painful, teacher.

[enlighten me]

My Ex lies unconditionally for just about any reason for anything at all. I caught her in many little lies and called her on them, but really never focused on them or made an issue. I just told her she was full of it and I knew it was a lie and moved on.

Yesterday I was wondering why I was shuffling our children between multiple sitters and figured it was due to her leaving state. It was my assumption she was staying a couple days with him.

I asked my eldest yesterday where's her mom at and she said "with the OM. Didn't you know? Mom said she told you." I told her she didn't and we both just rolled our eyes. Simple. She never had to tell my eldest she told me that and she never had to keep it a secret from me. It's just a sick game to play.

Together we had 4 unplanned pregnancies with 2 of them miscarrying. That is a fact something you cannot gaslight or distort. I told her that during our 15 years together with her refusal of getting on BC we've had 4 unplanned pregnancies. She denied that. Looked right at me and said no that's not true.

I had to point out to her that two of those unplanned pregnancies are our eldest and youngest. The other two she miscarried and I took her to the hospital for both of those.

She smiled looked at the floor and clenched her fists and shook a bit. Then said "Yes that's right." and kept talking like it wasn't mentioned.

where they unplanned or just not planned by you?

One thing I found with my exs is that if they want something they can go to great lengths to get it. My ex wife was supposedly on the pill but I caught her after sex with her feet up against the wall trying to fall pregnant.

[eyvindr]

glaciercats --

Sorry to hear you're going through this. You just described classic "splitting black" behavior:

I was wondering if people suffering from BPD actually believe their own lies?  It seems like they tell so many.  From little white lies to huge painful lies... .

It's like she has no perception of what's real and what's imaginary.  She has made members of her family and past friends and partners out to be these horrible people.  She is so convincing with her stories and when you look into her eyes it really looks like she believes these things have happened to her.  It's scary really.

Deep down she really seems to have a good heart, but I can not believe anything that she has ever told me unless I witnessed it first hand.  This has really done so much damage to me.  I am trying to repair myself one day at a time!

And that last bit, where you feel that you've adopted some of the dysfunction, we refer to as "fleas." (Not the best term, but it gets the point across.) Here's another example of that --

I feel like my mind is totally warped now.  Exactly like the Twilight Zone!  Even after everything I went through I can't stop worrying about her.  Deep down under all of these demons she really does have a good heart.  I so wish she would seek medical treatment for this. But I can no longer be her doormat no matter how much I care.

I feel ya. I feel the same way about my ex -- she has the capacity to be a great partner. Her dad and I were talking once, during a bipolar episode, and he said, "It's a shame. Except for the mental illness, she would be a gem." It's just sad.

enlighten me makes a very good observation:

where they unplanned or just not planned by you?



One thing I found with my exes is that if they want something they can go to great lengths to get it. My ex wife was supposedly on the pill but I caught her after sex with her feet up against the wall trying to fall pregnant.

During my break-up periods with my ex, I witnessed her share such a wide array of nonsense that it made my head spin. From slightly rewritten bits of our personal history, to outright fabrications included solely to bolster her "Victim Princess" image, to incredibly hurtful revisions of some actual happy things that we did together, cast in a dark and ugly light. She essentially attacked even the beautiful parts of our relationship -- nothing was sacred. Absolute scarred earth policy.

As I learned more about this illness, and heard others sharing their stories, I began to better understand the whole "painting black" thing. Helped me to understand that, as enlighten me points out above -- sometimes your role in what you think is a 2-person discussion is really overstated. We assume when we're talking to our partner -- particularly about important life choices -- that we're actually involved. But often I think my ex had her own ideas, and regardless of what I said, if she didn't agree with me, she'd stick to her "plan" regardless of what I thought, said, or indicated was important to me. Very often it felt like she just took for granted that she knew better, and knew best, for both of us -- which is also not uncommon in people with PDs, a delusional sense of grandeur. My ex was stuck on being a know-it-all -- really to an annoying point. And, if she had any doubts as to whether I'd believe outright something she needed me to believe, she'd automatically include statements like "You can ask anyone," "Three therapists have all agreed with me on this... ." "Any woman would agree... ." and, my all-time favorite, "You can call my doctor yourself and ask her if you don't believe me." Seriously annoying.

songbook -- this is terrific:

Deep down, we do all have hearts, minds, and spirit.

We each have chances to rise above our problems, too.

Disordered or not. Handicapped or not. Etc.

Many do not face themselves until there's real adversity.

But those who do can overcome even the worst of it.

With help or not, it's on each of us to take whichever steps.

My now-ex has every positive possibility available to her.

Her pains and fears have warped her own reality most of all.

All I can do is wish her the best and let go. The rest is up to her.

[Infern0]

Mine "did but didnt" if that makes sense.

She would tell you something that wasn't true,  and be very convincing,  but if you stood your ground and just refused to accept the gaslighting she would eventually give in and admit the truth.

[Elpis]

I think with a pwBPD it's more like what they feel becomes fact to them. If they feel it, then it must be so. And that's different from we nons since we can actually put our feelings up against the facts and compare them.

I know that my uBPDh has written his own version of his life and my life to tell to people to get them to feel sorry for him. All of my years of believing I have been a person of integrity, someone always pretty much the same inside and out and every day, can't stand up to his version of "truth" where I am The Bad Guy. Our basic difference of the truth is that I have been upset about how he treated me during the uncomfortable circumstances of his life (as the person to take his frustration out on) while he tells others that I was upset about those circumstances themselves. HUGE difference in my opinion! We can't always choose our circumstances, but we sure as heck can choose how we treat those around us.

[charred]

"As I learned more about this illness, and heard others sharing their stories, I began to better understand the whole "painting black" thing. Helped me to understand that, as enlighten me points out above -- sometimes your role in what you think is a 2-person discussion is really overstated. We assume when we're talking to our partner -- particularly about important life choices -- that we're actually involved. But often I think my ex had her own ideas, and regardless of what I said, if she didn't agree with me, she'd stick to her "plan" regardless of what I thought, said, or indicated was important to me. Very often it felt like she just took for granted that she knew better, and knew best, for both of us -- which is also not uncommon in people with PDs, a delusional sense of grandeur."

Agree completely... .I realized eventually that the 2-person discussion I thought I was in, was her stuck in her own loop. She would ask the same questions, I could answer any way I like and it didn't matter, she heard what she wanted to, and acted based on it. Think it was some old trauma loop repeating over and over.

Each time it got a bit faster. At the end we could make up, and she could flip/flop and have us broke up within an hour.

Been apart quite a while now thankfully, good riddance.

In general I think they start optimistic... are truthful but over state things a bit... .then as the disorder kicks in, when they hit the hater phase... they do things (lie, sleep around, etc.)... .that they feel are justified, but that they know are wrong. Later they feel shame from it, but to the victim of whatever they did, it doesn't help much.

[FrenchConnection]

My pwBPDex used to talk about so many subjects with authority.  I thought at first she was the most intelligent woman i had ever met.  After several months i caught her saying somethings that i knew for fact were incorrect.  

Then i discovered she had BPD.

Now i can not be sure about any of her life.  What was real, what was made up, what was distorted from actually happening?  I know it is her disorder that does that.   It's true that she became everything "i" wanted her to be and i never got to see the real her.  In the end, i was in love with a ghost of a person.  

I'm done with all that and moving on.  But it is sad for her... .

[eyvindr]

FrenchConnection,

I really relate to this.

My pwBPDex used to talk about so many subjects with authority.  I thought at first she was the most intelligent woman i had ever met.  After several months i caught her saying somethings that i knew for fact were incorrect.  

Then i discovered she had BPD.

Now i can not be sure about any of her life.  What was real, what was made up, what was distorted from actually happening?  I know it is her disorder that does that.   It's true that she became everything "i" wanted her to be and i never got to see the real her.  In the end, i was in love with a ghost of a person.  

I'm done with all that and moving on.  But it is sad for her... .

My ex actually described herself to me that way a few times, during really bad moments in the r-ship when I'd stepped away and she was trying to win me back, in a few poems, and once or twice in close conversations. She said she could only see other people two-dimensionally, like they were flat, like pieces of paper -- the didn't seem real to her. And that she felt like she was a ghost, kind of frozen and separate from everything. It really is heart-wrenching to get close to these people.

[raisins3142]

Little anecdote that I think fits here:

We were watching a very popular TV show and I felt a character was obviously lying about his past (supposedly he was a scientist that could save the world).

She was not so sure and said "some people can be very convincing in telling stories".

I told her "I would find out by asking him innocent questions that would cause him to fabricate technical knowledge if he was in fact lying.  I would remember what he said and then ask the same/similar question a week or more later and see if the details matched."

After hearing how I would systematically uncover a liar, my ex put her face in her hands and wept without saying a word.

I had recently caught her in a few lies and her past was hazy.  I knew exactly why she was crying at that point.