I didn't cave in today

[Moselle]

My W tried to force me out of the bed tonight to sleep on the sofa. I said "no"

She took the pillows away. I said "no".

She tried to keep waking me up, I said "no".

She begged me to sleep somewhere else. I said "no"

She phoned a family friend who then phoned me to say "Moselle respect your wife's space". I said "I do respect her space and her feelings. I'm sorry she's having a hard time but it has nothing to do with me. I'll be sleeping in my bed tonight"

W took all the pillows and the duvet and went to the lounge.

She kept coming back into the bedroom and turning the lights on. After 3 times I took the light bulbs out.

AND I DIDN'T CAVE IN. I'm proud of myself.

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[Pou]

Moselle, good for you.  But for me, I opted to stay away from the bedroom.  My NPDw has very unpredictable rages … for example, she uses her computer and phone all the time in bed and when we used to sleep in the same bed (like 3 years ago), I am all cool with her using electronic stuff in bed and i can even fall asleep with TV on.  After 12 years of being together and didn't have problem with electronics, all of a sudden she raged about my use of smart phone and this went on for weeks.  Eventually, I found an excuse and got the heck out of the bedroom.  I am so much happier not having to share a same bed with her … it is like a little prison ... I have to watch out for every little movement because I don't her to flip out.  If your W really has PD, my thought is that this will not be the end of it.  So be careful and good luck!

[Moselle]

Pou.  Thanks for your note! She has PD alright.  NPD and BPD. I also prefer to sleep apart,  but this is about not caving. I may choose to sleep apart and often do. But it is my choice and not because she forced me. This is not about where we sleep. It is about the fact that I won't be pushed around. She is learning that I will not cave in and she may choose to leave as per her threats.  But I will stand tall having given it my best

[Grey Kitty]

  Good for you, sticking to what you wanted.

I am wondering... .with all the fighting before she left the bedroom, and turning on the lights, etc... .would you have slept more peacefully on the couch?

[Moselle]

Yes GK. I would have. And I probably would have avoided the fallout which will likely happen tomorrow, but my message is clear - 2015 is different. I won't be bullied out of the bed or the house. I won't be spoken to disrepectfully. If that's what she needs/wants she can move on. I've done this for 5 years now and accepted inhuman treatment. Physical abuse (until I walked out 1 year ago) and now emotional and verbal abuse. No more.

We're in MC and I'm not prescriptive about where this goes anymore. It might mean divorce and I accept that.

I've been accomodating her requests until now, and I'm growing a healthy self respect that says. "Why should I accept her version of normal" I don't accept it, so why should I accommodate her.

[Grey Kitty]

You sound angry... .and that is probably a good thing--you have legitimate things to be angry about, and the anger gives you energy to do something about it. All very good things.

I am concerned that you are making fights bigger than they need to be though. The best boundary enforcement actions are ones that get you out of the confrontation immediately, not ones that force her to back down.

And absolutely... .do NOT take verbal and emotional abuse from her. Protect yourself from it by removing yourself from it.

[SlyQQ]

Be very careful of this fight sleep deprevation is one of BPDs fortes I would consider taking your pillows an blankets an tell her you will sleep somewhere else tonight the psychology of this is obvious but only return if you get some undertaking for a reasonable nights sleep ( probably should state the obvious one you take control of the situation which they hate, and your ex has to determine weather she can stand being alone for the night at your behest )

[matilda19]

My W tried to force me out of the bed tonight to sleep on the sofa. I said "no"

She took the pillows away. I said "no".

She tried to keep waking me up, I said "no".

She begged me to sleep somewhere else. I said "no"

She phoned a family friend who then phoned me to say "Moselle respect your wife's space". I said "I do respect her space and her feelings. I'm sorry she's having a hard time but it has nothing to do with me. I'll be sleeping in my bed tonight"

W took all the pillows and the duvet and went to the lounge.

She kept coming back into the bedroom and turning the lights on. After 3 times I took the light bulbs out.

AND I DIDN'T CAVE IN. I'm proud of myself.

It is amazing. When you read something and it is almost exactly word for word what happens to you. It is strange to think about all of us sharing similar experiences. My BPDgf has performed this act many times and I have never had the balls to stay. I always cave. So good on you.

[hope2727]

Moselle I am so happy for you. I totally get where you are coming from.

It makes me think of a foster child from years ago. I would carry him to his room and close the door when he was acting out. He would rage (a 2 year old rage) and come out. I would calmly carry him back in and close the door again. His first few days with me this went on and on and on. It was exhausting. But I was predictable and consistent and eventually he learned nothing was going to change. Finally when he would get upset he would leap up and declare "I my room!" and off he would stomp for his own timeout. He would cry or rage alone is his room for a few minutes then this little face would poke out the door and ask "I happy now, I come ok?" I would calmly say ok and he would race over for a hug all smiles. It was wonderful.

Now I in no way want to compare your wife to a 2 year old but somehow it brought the little guy to mind. I hope the story can give you a smile. I think you did great to outlast the extinction burst. Remember that the behaviour tends to get worse before it gets better so you may be in for round two. None the less you will eventually persevere. 

[Moselle]

Mathilda,  Hope2727,

Thanks so much for the support.

She indeed reminded me of a 2 year old. I had that very thought when it all happened.

She's still throwing toys BTW

I'm just waiting for "I my room" :-)

[sweetheart]

Hi Moselle,

I was wondering how much are your children exposed to what is going on and I suppose if you continue to ' not cave in' how the repercussions of this play out for them ? ( given that your wife is continuing this today )

I know that my tactics with my dBPDh take a very different route because I factor in our s6 to everything I do in relation to my h's BPD. ( I am not suggesting that you don't do this for your children ) I leave many more things because of our son than I would do if we had no children.

I also know that when my h needs to vent or expel his chaos he will find a way no matter what I choose to do, so for me with this in mind the solution that offers the most amount of peace for us as a family is to withdraw and not be exposed to escalating abuse and accept that this is the route of the disorder that I have chosen to live with. This also now (usually) short circuits any escalation or continuation, which is a huge change for us.

I wonder if there are any alternative resolutions to explore that still allow you to feel like you haven't completely given in.

[Cat Familiar]

Be very careful of this fight sleep deprevation is one of BPDs fortes

Yes, the sleep deprivation is something I've had to deal with too until I drew a line in the sand.

My husband will stay up really late some nights, drinking, watching movies, pursuing some interest, whatever--probably watching porn--I don't care.

But when we were sleeping in the same bed, I couldn't get to sleep waiting for him. Finally I told him I was going to bed no later than 10:30 and he was welcome to join me. Otherwise, he could sleep in his studio.

There were times he'd come in and wake me up at 2:30, to "say goodnight" stinking of alcohol. I'd be furious at being awakened in the middle of the night, since we'd said goodnight hours ago and I couldn't get back to sleep. Or he'd take the opportunity to wake me up and start an argument.

I told him that behavior was unacceptable. Thankfully he's respected my boundary and now I no longer deal with sleep deprivation. Occasionally we sleep together, but I get a much better sleep without his snoring.

[Moselle]

Sweetheart. I really don't know how to de-escalate this now, without giving in. Have you got any ideas.

This is new territory for me.

1. I could just say "I fundamentally disagree with the concept that the bed and bedroom is your space and not mine, however I'm willing to sleep in the lounge pending a meeting with the MC, where this thing can be discussed. 

2. I just hold tight and see what happens. 

3. Middle ground option.  We take it in turns. Last night was her in the lounge. Tonight it can be me, and we switch until we can see our MC and agree a more permanent arrangement.

I think nr 3 is a meet-me-half-way option,  which I'm partial to. Any other ideas?

My opinion is that its actually about intimacy.  Her absolute fear of it, and my need for it.

[Moselle]

Children. They actually didn't know about it. It was not a conflictual thing like it was in the past. There were no slamming of doors and screaming. It was just quiet abuse :-).

I took them out and spent some quality time with them.

I really don't know how to shield them from this. If i leave they get BPD witch, queen. If I stay they at least get some stability.

It's hard.

OK, I tried the compromise #3. She went off and i had to leave the dysregulation.

Stuck again. Back in hold out mode.  I'll give her a good 45 minutes to cool off and try again.

[hope2727]

Sweetheart. I really don't know how to de-escalate this now, without giving in. Have you got any ideas.

This is new territory for me.

1. I could just say "I fundamentally disagree with the concept that the bed and bedroom is your space and not mine, however I'm willing to sleep in the lounge pending a meeting with the MC, where this thing can be discussed. 

2. I just hold tight and see what happens. 

3. Middle ground option.  We take it in turns. Last night was her in the lounge. Tonight it can be me, and we switch until we can see our MC and agree a more permanent arrangement.

I think nr 3 is a meet-me-half-way option,  which I'm partial to. Any other ideas?

My opinion is that its actually about intimacy.  Her absolute fear of it, and my need for it.

Option 4 Tell her it is a marital bed where only love and kindness is welcome and if she can't abide by that or doesn't feel that way you encourage her to go take a time out in her own bed somewhere else in the house. Perhaps a space could be set up somewhere else for that purpose. I once told my ex fiancé that he was welcome to join my birthday party if he could find his happy face and be pleasant. He stormed out to his car, cried his eyes out, wiped his tears and came back and had a good time. Just saying that you are allowed to have needs and have a safe peaceful place to sleep.

[Moselle]

Thanks Hope2727.  

I think that just about says it, the way I see it! That is what I want. A safe, peaceful marital bed, where love and kindness is welcome.  The disorder is not.

[formflier]

 

 

Moselle,

Dude!  High 5!  Low 5... .and all the rest.  This is an area where I agree with you... .and tend to disagree with what seems to be the "majority position" on BPD family.  Most say... .get up... leave... .go sleep peacefully somewhere else. 

I've got issues with sleep... .I need a routine... .use a cpap... .have braces on wrists... .it's a bit of a drama getting me in the bed and asleep.  So... .for me... going somewhere else... is really hard.  So... I have stuck with it for years... .that I sleep in that bed... .period.

Now... .I don't "fight" in the middle of the night.   I've covered my ears with my hands and waited for things to blow over.  But... .I don't give in... .I also don't try to "force" her to leave.

I like your style... .and I like the message.  If you have an issue... .don't expect my behavior to fix it for you. 

My recommendation... .don't give in... .no quarter. 

She will test this line in the sand... .it will get worse... .and if you give in  or cut a deal it will get exponentially worse (so... .don't do that)

Why not "cut a deal"?  How do most "deals" go with pwBPD?

More later

[formflier]

 

Safety issues:

OK... .realize here that this is going to be seen as "conflict" by her.

So... be ready.

When you sleep... where is your phone?  

For a while I used an app that would record to the sd card.  If there were "issues" during the night... .I would save the recording.  If there were no issues.  I would delete in the morning.  

Rarely did I ever reveal these recordings... .but I do believe her knowledge that I have her screaming bloody insults at me in the middle of the night... .and me not fighting back... .helped me with this boundary... and get us to the point we are now.

Now... .90 some percent of my nights  (high 90s) are great.  I get good productive sleep on regular basis.

Plus... .if she starts fighting you in middle of night... .an objective recording will be needed for police... if it goes there.

I have one incident from years ago where I was woken up by my wife screaming at me that I hated her... .I may or may not have made some sort of contact with her when I lurched out of bed... .

Her claims and my claims of that evening are quite different... .I would really have liked to listen to what actually happened.

Boy... I would really like to have objective evidence of what happened that evening.

[formflier]

 

Last thought... .

The message you are giving her... .you may not want to be too explicit here... .is this.

This is the loving marriage bed.  I will be here... .I will be loving and healthy... .you are welcome here if you behave the same way.  If you want to behave otherwise... .go somewhere else...

substitute marriage... .for marriage bed... .and I think you have a similar message about your marriage.

[hope2727]

Last thought... .

The message you are giving her... .you may not want to be too explicit here... .is this.

This is the loving marriage bed.  I will be here... .I will be loving and healthy... .you are welcome here if you behave the same way.  If you want to behave otherwise... .go somewhere else...

substitute marriage... .for marriage bed... .and I think you have a similar message about your marriage.

I so love this. I wish I could tattoo the concept on my heart.

[Grey Kitty]

Option 4 Tell her it is a marital bed where only love and kindness is welcome and if she can't abide by that or doesn't feel that way you encourage her to go take a time out in her own bed somewhere else in the house.

THIS is a fantastic place to take a stand. I encourage it, just as much as formflier does.

There is only one problem with it. You CANNOT have a marital bed with love and kindness only in it if she chooses to put anger and violence into it.

The first night that moselle described was like that--he took a stand. He stayed in the bed. She wasn't cooperating. There was much that wasn't love and kindness that night. And moselle's sleep was disturbed several times that night.

Telling her that you insist on option 4 while she's picking a fight is not the same as getting option 4.

Be honest with yourself about what stand you are really taking--moselle's stand that night was about not getting kicked out of your own bed. It wasn't about keeping the marital bed safe from fighting and discord.

[Moselle]

Yes indeed. It was not originally that way,  but it is now and I said as much. She called me a callous ass,  grabbed the duvet and all the pillows and walked out. No mess no fuss.  She even spoke to me afterwards.

I'm very tired. I'm lucky if I got 2 hrs of sleep last night

[sweetheart]

Hi Moselle I'm in the minority here as I don't uphold the view about the marital bed in this instance. I agree with the sentiments expressed by others, but as with all things  it is something that can be worked towards.

What's important is what it represents to her, it's not about the fight, it's about something else. I don't know what that is.

My reason for suggesting a somewhat counter intuitive approach is that your wife has been extremely brittle for a while now and she has been easily triggered, emotionally it sounds like she is all over the place at the moment. So I wonder if for now her need to control and take ownership of your marital bed is something you can allow her whilst also finding a way to validate her need for space when she does this. I think your suggestion of then working on this issue and how it makes you feel and how you want things to be in the safety of MC is a really good idea. 

[formflier]

Be honest with yourself about what stand you are really taking--moselle's stand that night was about not getting kicked out of your own bed. It wasn't about keeping the marital bed safe from fighting and discord.

Very good analysis GK. 

Hmmm... .

I think Moselle is giving an underlying message... .or goal... .of keeping a marriage bed "calm".

Maybe in the future... .if there are contentious discussions to be had... .or even serious ones... .both go to another room.

I've seen advice such as that in various r/s books.

Such as... .no tv, distractions etc etc  in the bedroom... .it is for sleep and... .you know... ."relations... "   

[formflier]

Group challenge:  I think we all get the basic message that I had here.  I also realize that I presented this message in a way that we "nons" understand... .but I think if we said this to a pwBPD traits... .I think it "would be on!"... .trigger time.

So... .here is the challenge... .put on your validation hats... .communication strategy hats... .and let's find a way Moselle can say this... .effectively

Last thought... .

The message you are giving her... .you may not want to be too explicit here... .is this.

This is the loving marriage bed.  I will be here... .I will be loving and healthy... .you are welcome here if you behave the same way.  If you want to behave otherwise... .go somewhere else...

substitute marriage... .for marriage bed... .and I think you have a similar message about your marriage.

[formflier]

I'm very tired. I'm lucky if I got 2 hrs of sleep last night

Please go to bed early tonight... .and keep track of this... .

Also... .you are taking a stand in one place... .

Please find several other places to up the validation... .up the help.  Be nice to her... bring her a glass of icewater... .

Don't bring up the bedroom again... .unless she brings it up.  Maybe another way of saying don't rub her nose in it.

Not saying you will... .but with 2 hrs sleep... .I worry about keeping you focused.

[SlyQQ]

I cant see you are in a good posistion here you cant force intamacy on someone with BPD an your boudaries where yoe end up sleeping with no pillows or blankets seems difficult I think you are playing by her rules here i would seriously consider writing some rules of your own and defending them

[Moselle]

Why not "cut a deal"?  How do most "deals" go with pwBPD?

More later

My experience of deals or agreements is that they go out the window with the first dysregulation.  "I never agreed that" is one of her usual responses to that.

Or she says "Things have changed. That was before you did xyz, that deal is no longer valid"

I'm realising mutual agreements don't really work with disordered people.  As soon as they have a mood swing the deal is off. I guess they can justify that internally through blame.

[Grey Kitty]

Two things. First, I *hope* FF was joking about 'deals' I remember how badly most of his went! I think you are on the right track with them.

Second, I want to go back to the original point you made, moselle, and really congratulate you on the important part:

You were strong enough to stand up and face her. You stood your ground. You proved that you DO have the strength to do this, to succeed in the face of provocation!   

And THAT will serve you incredibly. Remember you have it!

There is a lot of discussion about where to put that energy, and how to do it best. You've got time to figure that out, and you will get better as you work on it.

Remember... .you DO have the strength you need for this!

[SlyQQ]

Agree with kitty here agreements dont work with BPD it always seems to come down to a line in the sand an then you better not back down