I didn't cave in today

[Moselle]

Agree with kitty here agreements dont work with BPD

it always seems to come down to a line in the sand

an then you better not back down

I agree with this. Hold your ground and don't cave in - ever. Decide what you want and just do it. If we wait to be seen, appreciated, ask for permission, or do a deal, it just won't happen. Unfortunately there are some things which need a level of co-operation eg Intmacy. I've written that off for now. My battle now is for respect and autonomy.

You were strong enough to stand up and face her. You stood your ground. You proved that you DO have the strength to do this, to succeed in the face of provocation!    

And THAT will serve you incredibly. Remember you have it!

Thanks GK. It is indeed a good reminder. I have just started a new job which is also challenging. W is testing me. She's also playing for attention which I'm spending at my job. I sensed this and it's actually one of the reasons I took a stand here. My message is "Settle down, stop misbehaving, relax. I have the situation under contol" I had to postpone the MC meeting on Tuesday because I'm travelling for work. She is now saying that I must cancel my trip so we can attend MC. My answer... .you guessed it - "no"

Please go to bed early tonight... .and keep track of this... .

Also... .you are taking a stand in one place... .

Please find several other places to up the validation... .up the help.  Be nice to her... bring her a glass of icewater... .

Thanks for your support in this thread. I slept like a baby! :-) I'm validating her too.  She's ignoring it. But I'm doing it, and I'm enjoying doing it. It's good practicing unconditional love. Nothing in return? Do it anyway.  And I'M having lots of fun with D5 and D10. D14 is unfortunately copying W in her behaviour - hermit, witch. I'm validating her too.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Too bad about the MC... .is there anyway around it... .or to delay it... .or to move MC up to Monday? 

If money is issue... .and the job is important... .then I think you have priorities straight... but... .hoping you can find a way to do both.

[Moselle]

Street angel, Home Devil. We are currently at a social event with friends and W is treating me perfectly well. She's got the Street Angel persona on. Getting me drinks, sharing social banter, organising my food.

It's a difficult contrast to manage.  It feels like life is back to its best. We'll see what happens at bedtime LOL

That's the sad thing about BPD,  the good is great. The bad is devastating.

[123Phoebe]

Street angel, Home Devil. We are currently at a social event with friends and W is treating me perfectly well. She's got the Street Angel persona on. Getting me drinks, sharing social banter, organising my food.

It's a difficult contrast to manage.  It feels like life is back to its best. We'll see what happens at bedtime LOL

That's the sad thing about BPD,  the good is great. The bad is devastating.

First thing that sprang to mind:

There was a little girl

BY HENRY WADSWORTH LONGFELLOW

There was a little girl,

            Who had a little curl,

Right in the middle of her forehead.

            When she was good,

            She was very good indeed,

But when she was bad she was horrid.

[Grey Kitty]

  Good work, moselle!

I hope you got another good night's rest.

Validation is a fantastic tool, but do remember that the good that comes of it won't show up if you don't have two more basic things under control first:

1. Boundary enforcement to protect yourself. Two that seem timely... .

-- Don't stand there and "take" verbal, emotional (or physical!) abuse. (Including constant blaming or circular arguments.

-- Your career and job is yours. Don't allow her demands, boundary busting, or needy behavior to interfere with your job or your work hours.

If you let this go, you will feel too hurt, beaten down, or resentful to be in the right mindset for validation, and cannot do it well.

2. Don't invalidate. Don't JADE.

This is because if you give your wife 99.8% validation + 0.2% invalidation in a conversation, the whole thing is tainted; the benefit of validation won't show up.

Plus... .it is easier. To stop invalidating all you need to do is clamp your mouth firmly shut and keep your eyes from rolling! Digging for empathy and understanding from somebody who tries to attack and hurt you is a challenge!

[Moselle]

First thing that sprang to mind:

There was a little girl

BY HENRY WADSWORTH LONGFELLOW

There was a little girl,

            Who had a little curl,

Right in the middle of her forehead.

            When she was good,

            She was very good indeed,

But when she was bad she was horrid.

Sounds like Mr Wadsworth Longfellow (b1807, d1882) had a little girl who was Borderline in his life. I wonder what used to be done in the 1800's with illnesses like BPD.  Just ignored and covered up, or lobotomy? 

1. Boundary enforcement to protect yourself. Two that seem timely... .

-- Don't stand there and "take" verbal, emotional (or physical!) abuse. (Including constant blaming or circular arguments.

-- Your career and job is yours. Don't allow her demands, boundary busting, or needy behavior to interfere with your job or your work hours.

If you let this go, you will feel too hurt, beaten down, or resentful to be in the right mindset for validation, and cannot do it well.

2. Don't invalidate. Don't JADE.

Very wise advice. Thanks. 

She's gone into victim mode. She isn't even attempting to sleep in the the bed any more. She's playing the "poor me" card. Suits me fine. I feel very safe in my big old bed.

How do I avoid making his the one up one down game?

- validate

- don't invalidate

- wait for her. When she's ready she will come back.

[formflier]

How do I avoid making his the one up one down game?

- validate

- don't invalidate

- wait for her. When she's ready she will come back.

Take her nice glass of ice water... .invite her up for a backrub... .

Or you can have bottle of lotion. 

If she comes up... .great... .

If not... .her choice... .you offered a healthy... enjoyable thing... .she made a choice to do something else.


Thing is to ask her... and then not "pester" her... .

IMO

[Grey Kitty]

She's gone into victim mode. She isn't even attempting to sleep in the the bed any more. She's playing the "poor me" card. Suits me fine. I feel very safe in my big old bed.

How do I avoid making his the one up one down game?

Victim mode and "poor me" is her way of playing that game. If you react, you are playing the game with her.

If you chase after her and try to comfort her, and she rejects you... .that is playing the game.

FF's suggestions are sound... .*IF* you are feeling genuinely like reaching out and offering these things. (OK, a glass of ice water is setting the bar low enough that you probably feel good about that!)

If you just feel like enjoying your own company, in another part of the house... .or going out for whatever you want to do... .or visiting a friend... .whatever, go do it.

Spend some time doing what you want to do.

[formflier]

  (OK, a glass of ice water is setting the bar low enough that you probably feel good about that!)

A hershey's kiss could have a bit of smart a$$ to it... ... ..so I stick with ice water... .pretty non specific... .but a gesture.

Really... .the point is not so much to make a gesture... but to "stick you toe in the water"... .and see if anything has changed... .

If she perks up at a small gesture... maybe you can validate and keep some momentum going... .

Even a snarl or and odd response is a chance to be genuine... .and ask what emotions she is feeling (a touch different than ... .how are you) 

Moselle... .solid work!    I like your style!   

[hope2727]

It was my experience when we were still together that my ex would perk up when I went off and did my own thing and appeared to be having fun without him. Even if that was sleeping. I simply refuse to be begging someone to be happy. Now it should be said that he left me so I may not be the greatest source of advice. However it did seem to work while he was still here.

[SlyQQ]

the only hope i see of you breaking this impass in the short term is the irreverence technique a very difficult manouver It basically involves completely suprising your partner ( presumably arouind bedtime with something ) completely unexpected and taking the moment she is in a suprised state ( an hence open to suggestion as she is temporarily removed from the closed mindset ) to make a reasonable an sensible representation good luck the example m linehan gives of this runs along the lines of a therapist patient interface i.e.

patient I have decided i am going to kill myself

therapist

i thought we decided you were going to stay in therapy

 p.s. this can easily backfire so think carefully about how an if you do it 

[Moselle]

Thanks folks.

SlyQQ I'm going to try that. I'm away on business for two days so it'll have to wait until I get back

We're into the silent treatment again.  OK - that's my cue to start looking after myself.

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks folks.

SlyQQ I'm going to try that. I'm away on business for two days so it'll have to wait until I get back

We're into the silent treatment again.  OK - that's my cue to start looking after myself.

Interesting timing. Perhaps your leaving on business triggered her fear of abandonment... .and she had to leave you first to protect herself? ('leave' meaning ST)

[sweetheart]

I think that was why I wondered whether a counter intuitive response to the 'get out of my bed' might be a consideration. Given that your wife knew you were going away and had a new job, she was most likely feeling anxious and out of control and a bit scared re abandonment etc.

The ST fits with a continuation of withdrawal and a need to control her environment because she is scared that you are going away.

Maybe next time you are due to spend time away you will be able to preempt this type of behaviour and get loads of validating loveliness in first to allay her fears. Maybe.

[yeeter]

I moved into my own bedroom.  Complete with a bed and bedding to my liking.  I think at first she felt I would move back to the same bedroom.  But after having peace and sanctuary at the end of each day, and getting so much better sleep, I decided I like it just fine this way.  After a couple years she hinted that she wanted me to move back, but I passed on it citing that I sleep so much better separately.  Felt strange at first.  And I have to explain to the kids that we have separate bedrooms.  But no real biggie (to me).

Having said that there is no reason you cant hold your ground on your own bed. 

[Wrongturn1]

I'd encourage you to keep your spot in the bed if that's where you want to sleep.  Maybe the ideal scenario is that you sleep in your bed and she finds someplace else to sleep alone, like a couch or spare bed.

Taking a step back, it's somewhat of a strange cultural norm that couples are expected to sleep in the same bed every night, especially in the developed world.  To me, the Ward and June Cleaver arrangement (two separate beds in the same room) might make more sense for getting better quality sleep, or even more ideally, for each person to have a separate bedroom where they can control noise, light level, and temperature.

[Moselle]

I love cuddling up to her. And she loves it too. The BPD - not so much.

That's the sad thing. We've had so many years of closeness. Was it all a dream? A figment of what i thought was going on and she secretly hated it? It feels that way now. Its been so long since there was peace.  It's easy to take this as the new 'normal'.

[Cat Familiar]

I'd encourage you to keep your spot in the bed if that's where you want to sleep.  Maybe the ideal scenario is that you sleep in your bed and she finds someplace else to sleep alone, like a couch or spare bed.

Taking a step back, it's somewhat of a strange cultural norm that couples are expected to sleep in the same bed every night, especially in the developed world.  To me, the Ward and June Cleaver arrangement (two separate beds in the same room) might make more sense for getting better quality sleep, or even more ideally, for each person to have a separate bedroom where they can control noise, light level, and temperature.

I love having separate bedrooms for a variety of reasons: his snoring due to substance abuse, his preference for staying up really late, his squirming around in bed, his desire to read for an hour or more with the light on in order to fall asleep.

I tell him I'm going to bed at 10:30 and he's welcome to join me if he's ready to sleep. It almost never happens. We have a few different places to sleep with different ambience. I sleep around (no not that way), just to enjoy waking up in different environments. He almost always sleeps in his king size bed in his studio. I used to like sleeping there, until he quit cleaning and the dust bunnies grew big as hamsters and it triggered my allergies. I think he purposefully doesn't clean, just so I won't join him there. (It's the one spot in the whole house I don't clean--he needs to be responsible for his own space.)

[formflier]

It's easy to take this as the new 'normal'.

It's up to you to figure out the new normal.  My gut says... .as long as you are pushing for healthier... .more emotionally stable... .you have a good shot at getting back to the "good 'ol days"

Keep working it... .good luck on your business trip

[Moselle]

Thanks form flier. I'm not sure that is possible in a  sustainable way, buy I'M dead keen to try. Nothing would make me happier than  a kind and loving woman.

[formflier]

Thanks form flier. I'm not sure that is possible in a  sustainable way, buy I'M dead keen to try. Nothing would make me happier than  a kind and loving woman.

And in the short run... .you may have a frustrated and ineffective pwBPD traits... trying to get you to "bite" and start a fight.

Over time... .she may tire of this... .and try a new tactic... .or she may genuinely go back to more of her "old self"

Fingers crossed.

Are you off on your trip?  When is MC resched for?

[Moselle]

OK. I'm almost there. Tomorrow 9 am for MC.

She only said "I want you dead" once this week. 

It's contempt, silent treatment, and hatred all mixed into one otherwise though.

I'm going to use the bed as an indirect message on the marriage as you mentioned earlier formflier.

"You're welcome to come back into the bed, if you are kind and loving. If you're hating or angry, you need to sleep somewhere else."

I think we both recognise that it cannot continue like this. The stress on the children is massive, not to mention what we're under.

[Moselle]

I went separately to the MC appointment to find that W had cancelled it. But then the counsellor was available so she saw us anyway.  

She said she was divorcing me and that she was only there to get the mediator to get her bed back and get me to pay for her full time maid.  

And W said that she's divorcing me on Monday. She has told the children the same thing.

The counsellor also said she should take her space. W said she was leaving the house, taking the children and staying with someone else.

BPD - the drama!

I'm really tired of this and I've given up at this point. I can't take this stress any more. So Monday looks like D-day.  Perhaps she's waiting for me to beg her to stay. Perhaps she 's serious.  It's hard to tell.

Is there any advice out there? I'm just holding on. Not caving.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm so sorry to hear that Moselle.   You've really been through the wringer. It sounds like you've come to some level of acceptance of an intolerable situation and that you're just waiting for her next move.

It's hard when you see how damaging her behavior is, not only to you, but also to your children. The nastiness and unkindness is so hurtful to everyone.

I know this is the staying board, but have you considered that your life and your children's lives might be improved by some distance from her? I'm really sorry, but it seems you've had the patience of a saint.   

[formflier]

 

Moselle,

Read my other posts... .my last day has been drama... so... .take my advice in that context.

My advice... .make sure you are home on Monday... .call a lawyer first thing.  You need to know what do to if she tries to take a child from the house... that doesn't want to go.

If a child says they want to go... .I don't know what you can do.


Between now and then... validate and do your best.  Don't invalidate... .don't draw lines... .unless you see something dangerous (again... read my posts to see why that is on my mind)

Take her glasses of water... .and do other things to put your toe in the water... .and take an opportunity to validate.

DO NOT "dare" her... .don't beg her not to file... .

If she files... .take no prisoners... .shine the light on her behavior... .be ready for her claims... .spend a lot of time on the divorce board.

Either way... .you know you have to win this one.  Walking away is not an option... .

If I am mistaken about walking away... .please advise.

[formflier]

The counsellor also said she should take her space. W said she was leaving the house, taking the children and staying with someone else.

What does this mean?  I don't understand counselors advice?  What is counselors advice to you?

Did you and your wife come to any agreements in MC?

[Moselle]

 Cat. Thanks for your note. Unfortunately I think I have the codependence of a peasant rather than the patience of a saint. That's my attempt at humour.  It seems she is desperate to self destruct. It's so frustrating. She has now reverted to the nonchalant "so I'm divorcing you attitude". She even said to me, that I have no idea how.much influenice she has over the children. She's cruel she's mean and she is going to continue to batter their poor self esteems further.  My heart is breaking for them. They have no idea.

Waiting for her move? Yes I'm waiting for her move. What else can I do?

[Moselle]

The counsellor also said she should take her space. W said she was leaving the house, taking the children and staying with someone else.

What does this mean?  I don't understand counselors advice?  What is counselors advice to you?

Did you and your wife come to any agreements in MC?

So sorry to hear about your predicament! I hope your boy recovers from the bite and you and your wife recover from the traumatic experience.

Advice was "I'm so sorry about the divorce, call if you need support" formflier, this is the second MC to say the same thing.  First one was when we separated a year ago. The possibility that I'm flogging  a dead horse here seems a likely one at this stage...

She appears more hesitant now.  And her voice wavered earlier when talking about the divorce. There have been so many threats over the last year,  it's impossible to tell if she's serious or not.

She's behaving like the queen - asking me to do favours, or errands. She keeps asking me for money too. I say "no" to most of it, or just ignore it. I was leaving to go to the shop today and she ran out pulled the car door open. I just continued used to drive away. She's so focussed on controlling me it's unbelievable.

[formflier]

 

I think boy will be fine.  I will lay eyes on him again in few hours. 

What else can you do... .not much.  Validate when you can. 

I've seen guys try to preempt... .went badly... .except in the state of TN... where the person files... somehow... .controls the court.

A guy I knew used that knowledge... .to pick a more "dad friendly" judge.

Still ... .he made that move out of fear... .and while he got 50/50 parenting... .early... .that sealed the divorce.  She continues to blame him... .it was 10 years ago.

Basically... .she tries to say that because he filed... .it is his fault. 

My tactic... .if it ever comes to this... .is that my wife has to "own" the divorce... .if she wants one. 

Last threat for my was over Christmas... .luckily... .with tools... .divorces threats are almost out of my r/s.

Still... you need to talk to lawyer and understand if there is a big advantage to the person that files.

In my state... there is not... .if she takes kids and runs... .I can have the back in about 10 days... .and have lawyer ready for this if needed.

She has threatened to take kids and run before.  I don't respond to those threats... .but I am ready for them.

Are you ready?

[formflier]

Advice was "I'm so sorry about the divorce, call if you need support" formflier, this is the second MC to say the same thing.  First one was when we separated a year ago. The possibility that I'm flogging  a dead horse here seems a likely one at this stage...

Can you remind us quickly how the separation went... .?  You left... correct? 

I actually don't think she is serious... .I think she is goading you... .IMO... for what it's worth.