Why will they choose control over intimacy?

[eeks]

I was just walking home from the grocery store (good time to think) and I realized an odd similarity between a former friend of mine last year, and someone I briefly dated last fall (with communication extended long past that... .) both uBPD.

The friend (self)identified as a "Highly Sensitive Person" (please refer to the work of Elaine Aron, Ph.D.) and so when she had requests of me to, for instance, move seats in a restaurant because the music was too loud where we were sitting, or if we were walking a few blocks somewhere to take the quiet back street instead of the main road, things that weren't a big deal to me, I didn't mind.

One of the things that drew us together as friends is that we had done some of this personal growth work. So when she says something to me, about a situation she's in or an emotion, and I say my opinion about it (which I trust that I'm good at, since friends and family members who do not have personality disorders appreciate my input and seek it out), her response is that my comment doesn't let her hear her "inner voice", what's true for her.  I've had some therapy and done a lot of self-inquiry (I have anxiety disorder)... .it's maybe only because of that that I thought it was a legitimate request and not the opening move in a slow and subtle campaign of control.

So, another time, I sense that she's feeling an emotion (not related to me necessarily) and I *don't* say anything, because I don't want to "disrupt her experience", and she tells me the next time she sees me that she was upset that I didn't say anything! 

So, I can't win.

Same with the guy I was dating.  The relationship itself was very short but we kept in contact after that (I was going through a difficult time myself and felt lonely) and at one point, he said that he had decided not to drain his friends by telling them about his personal problems anymore so he would like me to do the same with him.  OK, so, he didn't want to talk about the dispute that led him to break up with me, and he doesn't want me to talk about my problems (and at this point he's not inviting me to see him in person, and I'm not even going to tell you what he said when I suggested it) so what is left to talk about?  Small talk!  I would text him when I was going to a concert, the art gallery, etc. 

During the text conversation that led him to block my number (well, supposedly, who knows if he actually did it, I'm kind of hoping my last texts got through as they were pretty "final", he said something to me about those texts about concerts and that, "you just wanted a round of applause".  (where was he even getting that idea?)  And even though he is the one who ended our relationship, the culminating incident here was that I told him that an ex of mine is going to be in town next month.  So, let's go through this again, you aren't dating me anymore, that means I can do what I want (and I know you have), you have this reaction when I tell you about something that hasn't even happened yet and is uncertain at that, which in my mind can only mean that you're jealous, I ask you but you won't admit it, and you block me but not without getting in a few parting shots first.

Again, can't win!

So, when I say control, this is what I mean.  Something that starts innocently enough, at least as far as I'm concerned, although if it ever happens to me again I won't see it as innocent.  I'm a flexible enough person, and I don't want to impose on others, so if they ask me to do or not do something, I usually comply, trusting that the implicit social script is that they'll do the same for me if I ask for it.

Both of these relationships were ended by them, not me, because I let them down in some way, I did not do something for them that they expected me to do.  And I'll be honest, in both cases, the expectations were reasonable (although open to debate), but not bad enough to end an otherwise promising friendship or relationship over.  And they both made me feel so guilty about what I'd done, went on and on about what an offense it had been against them.

And so, that's the reason for the question in the subject line... .in my limited experience it seems that pwBPD will choose control over intimacy, even if it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, preventing them from having the very thing that would help them.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[eeks]

move seats in a restaurant because the music was too loud where we were sitting, or if we were walking a few blocks somewhere to take the quiet back street instead of the main road,

Also, her psychologist had diagnosed her with PTSD, and she took great pains to control her physical/sensory environment to avoid triggers.  I had never met anyone with PTSD before so I didn't know what it was like... .now, in retrospect, I think that maybe her PTSD really did get triggered that easily, but expecting me to accommodate her (I'm a friend... .not a lover, family member or therapist), even though the requirements were extensive and often contradictory, even to the point of me not being allowed to say my opinion about things, that's BPD. 

I think that what she called "self-care" (with a nice convenient moralistic aspect in there to foist on others, "I am the one who knows best what I need, you have to give me credit" may actually have been an elaborate system of psychological defenses.

[raisins3142]

I think a lot of people with PTSD have BPD in addition or instead of this.  If you look at what is called complex PTSD, the symptoms are basically BPD.

[fromheeltoheal]

Borderlines fear both abandonment and engulfment; fear of abandonment is the replaying of the original situation that created the disorder to begin with, an unsuccessful detachment from their primary caregiver in infancy, and fear of engulfment is the fear of getting too close to someone and losing themselves, since a borderline doesn't have a fully formed self of their own.  So the need to control is an attempt to keep those two opposing fears at bay in an attempt to straddle the fence between them; if the person they're in a relationship with is controlled and therefore not autonomous they can't affect the emotional distance in the relationship.  The push/pull behavior comes out of that same internal battle: too close, push away, too far away, pull back, always in flux.

[Infern0]

BPD are full of contradiction.

I've managed to have many frank discussions with mine, as when she's regulated she doesn't mind telling me stuff.

Of course theres possibility of lies but I take what she says on face value when she's not disregulating.

One exaple, when we were talking about our R/S and I asked where did it go wrong, i'll paraphrase:

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

That's almost word for word what she told me, quite interesting imo

[fromheeltoheal]

One exaple, when we were talking about our R/S and I asked where did it go wrong

,

That is very good.  Many of us, myself included, would ask "where did I go wrong?"

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

It's a little off your point Inferno, but can you imagine how much life must suck for that guy right now?  PTSD in his future and maybe a future member of this site; guess I can relate a little too well.  You sound pretty strong to have those conversations with her.

[Infern0]

One exaple, when we were talking about our R/S and I asked where did it go wrong,

That is very good.  Many of us, myself included, would ask "where did I go wrong?"

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

It's a little off your point Inferno, but can you imagine how much life must suck for that guy right now?  PTSD in his future and maybe a future member of this site; guess I can relate a little too well.  You sound pretty strong to have those conversations with her.

I have a pretty good idea what his life is like, she tells me quite a bit plus i hear things from mutual acquaintances.

Sex deprived, in fact she mentioned recently she doesn't like him "touching her"... .

Goes to "hang out" with exes while he's at home, god forbid he asks whats up with that

He's in counselling for depression, i wonder if his conseller has figured out it's her that's causing it

yeah one or two other nice things, last time I saw him walking through the mall he wasn't looking good at all, I do belive things aren't going to work out to well for him, not too well at all. He's at the 6 month point now, which seems to be around about the time she goes into hardcore devaluation, should be interesting over the next few weeks.

As for me being strong, honestly not really because if I was i'd be able to sustain NC which I can't, but that being said i'm pretty used to her now, her occasional mind game attempts don't phase me, she's only raged at me twice in 6 months and both times apologied after i just refused to respond. She also tells me she loves me a lot but I don't want her back, I benefit from not being too close to her.

[raisins3142]

BPD are full of contradiction.

I've managed to have many frank discussions with mine, as when she's regulated she doesn't mind telling me stuff.

Of course theres possibility of lies but I take what she says on face value when she's not disregulating.

One exaple, when we were talking about our R/S and I asked where did it go wrong, i'll paraphrase:

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

That's almost word for word what she told me, quite interesting imo

I only went through one complete pull-push-pull cycle.  But the push phase started immediately after the following things happened in the span of a week: 1. I told her I loved her, 2. I turned down a distant job that would more than double my salary, 3. I asked her for advice and was confused on what to do regarding my career, and 4. she saw me get emotional and really cry hard and lean on her for support.

It was like a curtain fell.  It wasn't enough that I was strong overall.  I had to be extremely strong all the time, like the gladiators in the movies/tv shows she was obsessed with.

During that 6 week push phase, I shudder to think what she got up to.  I'll never know, and maybe it is better that way, but I'd rather know and get angry than be left in doubt but thinking something was likely going on that was hidden.

[Infern0]

BPD are full of contradiction.

I've managed to have many frank discussions with mine, as when she's regulated she doesn't mind telling me stuff.

Of course theres possibility of lies but I take what she says on face value when she's not disregulating.

One exaple, when we were talking about our R/S and I asked where did it go wrong, i'll paraphrase:

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

That's almost word for word what she told me, quite interesting imo

I only went through one complete pull-push-pull cycle.  But the push phase started immediately after the following things happened in the span of a week: 1. I told her I loved her, 2. I turned down a distant job that would more than double my salary, 3. I asked her for advice and was confused on what to do regarding my career, and 4. she saw me get emotional and really cry hard and lean on her for support.

It was like a curtain fell.  It wasn't enough that I was strong overall.  I had to be extremely strong all the time, like the gladiators in the movies/tv shows she was obsessed with.

During that 6 week push phase, I shudder to think what she got up to.  I'll never know, and maybe it is better that way, but I'd rather know and get angry than be left in doubt but thinking something was likely going on that was hidden.

To be honest,  that kind of stuff does turn a lot of women off in general.

Bpd are emotionally hypersensitive so it makes things that much more difficult.  But it sounds like you set off her engulfment trigger.

It's a shame these people don't come with instructions.  Honestly though I don't belive a complete relationship with them is possible. FWB is about as much as is sustainable in my opinion,  if you stay detached and have an easy come easy go attitude they will stick around.  The second you show weakness the games begin.

[eeks]

Borderlines fear both abandonment and engulfment; fear of abandonment is the replaying of the original situation that created the disorder to begin with, an unsuccessful detachment from their primary caregiver in infancy, and fear of engulfment is the fear of getting too close to someone and losing themselves, since a borderline doesn't have a fully formed self of their own.  So the need to control is an attempt to keep those two opposing fears at bay in an attempt to straddle the fence between them; if the person they're in a relationship with is controlled and therefore not autonomous they can't affect the emotional distance in the relationship.  The push/pull behavior comes out of that same internal battle: too close, push away, too far away, pull back, always in flux.

Fromheeltoheal, this makes sense.  Thank you.

[Mr Hollande]

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

[raisins3142]

To be honest,  that kind of stuff does turn a lot of women off in general.

I know, and it is ridiculous.

[SlyQQ]

In my expierience they never choose intamacy

[Infern0]

To be honest,  that kind of stuff does turn a lot of women off in general.

I know, and it is ridiculous.

Just the basics of attraction.  Of course if you are with a non girlfriend or spouse they will be more understanding of you in low points.  Then again you probably won't get as low because your not having your soul raped by some BPD chick.

Catch 22

[raisins3142]

To be honest,  that kind of stuff does turn a lot of women off in general.

I know, and it is ridiculous.

Just the basics of attraction.  Of course if you are with a non girlfriend or spouse they will be more understanding of you in low points.  Then again you probably won't get as low because your not having your soul raped by some BPD chick.

Catch 22

Agreed that on average women are attracted to strong and confident men.

But if you are strong 99.9% of the time and cry once over several months' time due to a serious family issue and then are unsure of what to do once, and they lose all attraction for you?... .you are dealing with a BPD or a person I could not be in a LTR with at all.  I think more of women than to think this is the norm.

I can understand not being attracted in the moment, like when my uBPDexgf woke up with horrendous morning breath, but if that short circuits long term attraction regularly in humans and triggers something like devaluation... .perhaps I am on the wrong planet.  If you can appear/be strong 100% of the time, then I'd question if it is genuine.

To give a bit of context, I have a PhD in a hard science, am over 6', bench significantly more than my body weight, and physically intimidated multiple men that bothered her while out (she was probably eye screwing them beforehand though because she is nuts).  She is a 7 out of 10 looks wise with an associates nursing degree and a checkered past.  She got lucky when she found me.

[Infared]

BPD are full of contradiction.

I've managed to have many frank discussions with mine, as when she's regulated she doesn't mind telling me stuff.

Of course theres possibility of lies but I take what she says on face value when she's not disregulating.

One exaple, when we were talking about our R/S and I asked where did it go wrong, i'll paraphrase:

"I am really attracted to you and you are a lot stronger than most guys i have been with and I find that really attractive, but it scares me too, it's like you don't need me and so I always think i'll lose you so I have to either make you weaker so you'll stay or I tell you i don't want to be with you anymore. But I do really, what I want is for you to tell me to stay and that you need me, that's why I can't stay away. I love x (replacement) but it's not the same, he's got no self esteem and i'm not attracted to him but I know he'll always be there, but i'm pushing him away because I want him to be stronger but he can't be. I can't be attracted to someone weak, I love him more like a brother, and you like a lover, me and X haven't had sex for 4 months, I can't do it with him it feels disgusting, but he is a good person and he takes care of me, I don't want to hurt him, I dont want to hurt anyone I just dont know what to do"

That's almost word for word what she told me, quite interesting imo

I can't help but say... .that is one of the most self-centered quotes I have ever read. Enlightening, but totally selfish and very sick. She has no empathy or love for anyone else. It is always totally and completely all about her needs.

Hopefully you both can run like hell.    

The honesty is admirable... .but there is nothing there to hold on to.

[Mr Hollande]

"Strong men also cry!"

Jeffrey Lebowski

[Infared]

"Strong men also cry!"

Jeffrey Lebowski

+1000