Why do I feel the need to rescue?

[JRT]

Aren't we all looking for a safe harbor, unconditional love? Is fixing someone a flaw of sorts or is it a a conditioned social moray?

I think it's a matter of degrees. I remember reading somewhere that we either focus on others at the expense of ourselves, or we focus on ourselves at the expense of others. What we're ultimately going for is a constant, dynamic balance somewhere in the healthy zone between the two. Sometimes, I focus on myself at the expense of others. Sometimes I focus on others at the expense of myself. When I was with N/BPDx, I focused on him at the expense of myself (and my son) all the time. I tended to be this way in my family, and also with friends.

But now it's not just all one way, or mostly one way. It's a mix.

It's also interesting for me now because I can see that I played the rescuer role a lot of times in the Karpmann drama triangle, and that really sucked. And it never fixed anything anyway. I'm trying to play more of the coach role (from The Empowerment Dynamic or TED model), and that seems to fulfill some of my instincts to rescue without letting myself be drawn into the drama stuff.

So fixing someone does feel like a flaw, at least the way I did it. But coaching someone, which seems like a combination of positive rescuing + boundaries, that feels like a social moray.

focus on others at the expense of ourselves, or we focus on ourselves at the expense of others.

In between these two somewhere, must lie a healthy equilibrium. I like this trait about myself and will have to think a bit to judge if it comes as a detriment to myself.

[going places]

Wow.!... This is me all my life.

I am in T working on all of this.Thank You for this perfect insight.

If I had a printer,i would print this out and put it on my Fridge.

It has taken me 3.5 years to get to this place after spending 25 years with Mr. Monster.

Be patient with yourself.

I chose NOT to see a T but I did go see an advocate who was extremely helpful.

I have read A LOT on line, read a ton of med books / help books, and i pray... .A LOT A LOT.

Heal you. YOU are the most important person you know. If you are not healthy, everything gets messy.

Ask me how I know!

[Reforming]

This whole post is so helpful. Thank you everyone.

Reforming, this has given me a lot to think about:

I think we also rescue because at some deep level we want to be rescued ourselves.

I felt the whole ground shift when I slowed down to consider this. What I'm wondering is if the deal had to involve co-rescuing. Because I can think of a lot of healthy men that passed through my life and they weren't broken enough for me, even though maybe they could've rescued me. I think I needed someone equally in need of fixing so that I didn't lose that sense of being strong. That seemed to be an important dynamic, looking back.

Hi LivedandLearned,

It's a really helpful thread and a great topic.

I think you are absolutely right in that the challenge is to strike a healthy balance between being focussed on ourselves and not really present or available and being so focussed the other person that we try to take responsibility for them and even control their behaviour

To be a supportive, loving partner who listens and gives encouragement, while remembering that you and your partner are separate and not responsible for each other's choices, actions or happiness. Critically I think it's about understanding our own needs and how they can be met and who should meet them.

By that I mean I realise that it's unrealistic and unhealthy to expect another, no matter how healthy to meet my most important needs. That's my job and I'm the only one who can do that.

I think we try to rescue to damaged people because it makes us feel powerful and less vulnerable and we believe that damaged people won't draw attention our own weaknesses. As most of us have discovered the opposite is true

JRT. I think the concept of unconditional is unrealistic and gets us into trouble. Is it healthy to love someone who is destructive or treats you will disrespect and cruelty?

I accept that we all make mistakes and go through bad patches but healthy love is conditional because it requires mutual respect, care and accountability.

Reforming

[Grey Kitty]

I remember reading somewhere that we either focus on others at the expense of ourselves, or we focus on ourselves at the expense of others. What we're ultimately going for is a constant, dynamic balance somewhere in the healthy zone between the two. Sometimes, I focus on myself at the expense of others. Sometimes I focus on others at the expense of myself.

Very true. I've been listening to an audiobook (MC homework), "Holding on to yourself in relationships" by Alan Berger.

He describes that challenge--focusing on both yourself and your relationship as critical in a relationship. And also describes that most people tend to lose one of those two, and that it doesn't matter which one you lose--it will mess up the r/s equally, but in different ways.

He also claims that the two are not actually in conflict, and that figuring that out is the sort of hard work we need to do. I'm inclined to agree--the healthy zone is one where you pay attention to both.

[Crumbling]

As for being/staying true to yourself within a r/s, I had someone describe it like this:  love is the acorn.  With sunshine and water (two distinct individuals),  it can be nurtured and grown into a mighty oak.  If there's too much water, or too much sun, there is little growth.  You need the perfect balance in order to have your love grow strong.  I thought it was a pretty good analogy.

As for rescuing, I really feel like I am constantly being pushed to rescue my BPDh.  He is constantly asking for help, asking where things are, asking what he should do.  I've realized by reading these posts just how important it is not to give in to these.  He reacts like a spoiled child who's mother has denied him his favourite cookie when I don't jump to his rescue, but if I just let him reaction without reacting myself, and continue to encourage him to do things for himself, he gets stronger, and asks less.

I was the mediator as a child.  My parents fought a lot, and would eventually let me lead the conversation, stop them when they were saying things that were hurtful to each other, and ask questions that allowed both of them to say what they wanted to say, and be heard.  I don't know why they ever let me lead this way, it started at a very young age, like probably 9 or 10.  And I have no idea where I got the knowledge I had about keeping things on the level, I just did what I felt needed to be done.   

I think, for me, I am pretty sure it has been my lack of self-esteem that has left me with unhealthy partners, coupled with the need to 'help' or 'fix things'.  I don't think I ever had the courage to risk loving someone that is emotionally strong, for fear it will bring out my weaknesses, like Reforming said.  This holds a lot of truth for me, and really is tasty food for thought.

Thanks for sharing!

[Survived?]

What a rough question Lived, 

Where does a person find this answer?  Where is line between compassion, caring and commitment not just to our partners, but also our children?  We all have different value systems, to some, to me, part of my value system was placing my faith and family first.  Even when I began to recognize the severity or dysfunction in my BPD - what of my children.   Was it better for them, for me to go…or to stay?  I chose to stay – until I could stay no longer.  Was this the right choice…only time will tell now?   

On a deeper level, those who know compassion most, are usually those who have suffered the most.  For myself at least, it was surviving a difficult FOO that gave me a greater compassion for others.  Why is rescuing a bad thing.   Is it a bad thing?  I grew up on stories of good and evil, good and bad in the world – don’t we all want to be the good guy or girl.  Don’t we all want to be the hero? Didn’t we all want live happily ever after?  Like most boys, didn’t we all want to grow up to be a knight in shining armor, to slay dragons?  Don’t most girls want to be rescued by prince charming?  Isn’t this part of our culture – isn’t this a good part of our heritage and values as a culture?  Because we are co-dependent and experienced difficult FOO – does this mean we deserved a BPD who fooled us and took advantage of us?  No, of course it does not, and yet FOO is at least partly the cause of ending up with a BPD?   

Of course, then comes boundaries.  Even as I fell in love with my BPD, the red flags were everywhere. I ignored them.  Love makes people do silly things to begin with, throw in a little people pleaser, rescuer personality defect – and we were done from the start – at least I was.   

Yet, when the dysfunction becomes so severe and the red flags become red cannons of suffering – where does a person find boundaries in the FOG.   What you wrote is true, at least for me: 

"Wow, people really hurt you. I would never do that to you because you're so wonderful. I'm going to be the first person to love you properly."

In my BPD relationship that is now ended…this is exactly how it began and continued, and a defective FOO or not, my desire to be kind and caring was not the problem.  It was the lack of boundaries, once I knew there was a serious problem.   This is where being the rescuer and fixer became skewed into being abused – and allowing it to continue with no boundaries.   To care for and help others is compassion and kindness – and these are good qualities.  It is lack of boundaries and allowing others to hurt us or accept abuse in the name of rescuing and caring – this is where I went wrong.       

[Survived?]

Reforming,

I so agree with so much of what you say.  However, if I may make one point…

In almost every relationship book I’ve ever read…unconditional love IS listed as part of the formula for a healthy relationship.   Loving unconditionally is giving love without condition – to love a person wholly including their flaws. In a healthy relationship this is a two way deal and of course if it is not returned then it is not a healthy relationship. 

Giving unconditional love is a good thing – so long as it is given to a healthy person and returned in a healthy way.   

Of course a BPD can never do this so, at least in my opinion, it was not the giving that was wrong or the problem.  It comes right back to the questions of establishing boundaries and not giving such a treasure to someone who won’t or can’t return it.  Unconditional love well placed – is what I one day hope to find in another healthy person – who will give it back to me.     

[Reforming]

Reforming,

I so agree with so much of what you say.  However, if I may make one point…

In almost every relationship book I’ve ever read…unconditional love IS listed as part of the formula for a healthy relationship.   Loving unconditionally is giving love without condition – to love a person wholly including their flaws. In a healthy relationship this is a two way deal and of course if it is not returned then it is not a healthy relationship.  

Giving unconditional love is a good thing – so long as it is given to a healthy person and returned in a healthy way.  

Of course a BPD can never do this so, at least in my opinion, it was not the giving that was wrong or the problem.  It comes right back to the questions of establishing boundaries and not giving such a treasure to someone who won’t or can’t return it.  Unconditional love well placed – is what I one day hope to find in another healthy person – who will give it back to me.      

Hi Survived

I completely agree that choosing a healthy partner is critical, but I think many of us stay in these relationships too long because we believed that unconditional love is the foundation of a healthy relationship.

I certainly did, convinced that unconditional love and commitment could overcome anything.

But now that I'm becoming more self aware it seems to me that we all have conditions or core needs that we need and want to be met, even if we're unaware of them.

Love, secure attachment, fidelity, safety and mutual respect are some of them

These are fundamental to our happiness and health and if they are not being met than we are not loving ourselves, which is unhealthy

For me there there is a gulf between choosing to love someone - and it is a choice - despite their flaws, which requires acceptance, empathy and a respect for their right to be themselves and make their own choices and unconditional love, which implies loving someone even when it's apparent that they cannot or will not meet the needs that are conditional to our own health and happiness.

I would qualify this by making a distinction between romantic love and the love a parent feels for a child or a child for a parent.

I think this is very different type of love and not we need from a romantic relationship, though it's interesting that many of us struggle to recover from our relationships because our unhealthy romantic attachments feel like these primary relationships

Reforming

[going places]

I think the concept of unconditional is unrealistic and gets us into trouble. Is it healthy to love someone who is destructive or treats you will disrespect and cruelty?

"Unconditional" is completely impossible for a human being to achieve.

The closest you can come is a mother to a child, in a healthy relationship.

Unconditional usually ends up meaning "boundary-less" which is self destructive.

Folks with personality disorders (AS / NARC / BPD, etc) latch onto someone with no boundaries like a flea on a dog.

They cannot survive unless they are sucking the life out of a host.

I love my kids; I would give them my last breath / defend them to the death... .but... .if they were to become addicts, into illegal activities, satan worshipers ? I would 'love them' at the core, and I would do everything in my power to help them; but I would enforce strict boundary lines, that not even they, my own flesh and blood, could cross.

There really is no such thing as unconditional love, here on earth.

[Trog]

I'm in the middle of a rescue right now that may well put me in danger. Some guy in my apartment threw all his girlfriends belongings into the stairs and she appears to be sporting a split lip. I brought her in and gave her a drink and a hug and she's now gone to get a friend to help her carry her belongings wherever she's going next.

Although I know better than to do any more than this act, while she was in the corridor sobbing with the BF chucking her belongings out my legs were like jelly, I felt like a child again listening to my father raging at my mother and her sobbing. And also reminded of myself and exs crazy rows. I stood there frozen for about a minute before I opened the door. The thought that this was none of my biz was large in my mind but how can you listen to a woman crying like that in pain and not try and help? It's a rescue, it may still backfire as she hasn't come back for her stuff and the BF is not a small bloke. Here's hope it turns out ok. In this case, was rescuing right, I may have opened the door to a whole host of problems! Good job I am moving apartments in a couple of weeks.

[Reforming]

I think the concept of unconditional is unrealistic and gets us into trouble. Is it healthy to love someone who is destructive or treats you will disrespect and cruelty?

"Unconditional" is completely impossible for a human being to achieve.

The closest you can come is a mother to a child, in a healthy relationship.

Unconditional usually ends up meaning "boundary-less" which is self destructive.

This was certainly the case with me.

I love my kids; I would give them my last breath / defend them to the death... .but... .if they were to become addicts, into illegal activities, satan worshipers ? I would 'love them' at the core, and I would do everything in my power to help them; but I would enforce strict boundary lines, that not even they, my own flesh and blood, could cross.

I think it is incredibly difficult for parents whose children are struggling with drug addictions and mental health issues. You may always love them but as you rightly say you still need to have healthy boundaries to protect yourself and help them become responsible for themselves.

My legs were like jelly, I felt like a child again listening to my father raging at my mother and her sobbing. And also reminded of myself and exs crazy rows. I stood there frozen for about a minute before I opened the door.

Trog I'm not surprised that you were triggered  . It sounds like you were in a hell of a spot, but you did the decent thing.

You're obviously self aware enough to avoid the pitfalls.

Not rescuing doesn't mean that you cannot reach out to help someone in need. It does mean recognising our own limitations and not forgetting to look after ourself as well

Reforming

[livednlearned]

Although I know better than to do any more than this act, while she was in the corridor sobbing with the BF chucking her belongings out my legs were like jelly, I felt like a child again listening to my father raging at my mother and her sobbing. And also reminded of myself and exs crazy rows. I stood there frozen for about a minute before I opened the door. The thought that this was none of my biz was large in my mind but how can you listen to a woman crying like that in pain and not try and help?

I think we often treat rescue as though it's binary. We think it's either: rescue or not rescue. But I'm finding that there is a way to do the right thing without putting myself in the middle of the crisis. For example, in your case, calling the police instead of bringing her into your apartment and hugging her. My rescue instinct rarely considers that maybe there is someone better for the job (including the person in distress). And when I do involve someone better trained, I always feel like they're going to mess it up. I'm getting back at it, but it still feels awkward to not insert myself into the middle of someone's problem.

The thing I find so hard is to acknowledge that sometimes people need to experience the consequences to the fullest extent before they will make a positive change and take care of themselves. I was like this too. My ex was abusive, and I kept going back. It had to get bad enough for me to leave. No one could've rescued me -- if they tried to, I didn't notice. And the truth is that I needed it to get bad, not better, for there to be real change.

[jhkbuzz]

I think this really captures it for me, much as I hate to admit it:

"Being a caretaker can lead to a heady feeling of being a strong, wise, and needed person. Playing this role as a child can make you feel equal or even superior to the adults in the family. Unfortunately, being a caretaker means learning to be overly vigilant of the needs of others and pretty much ignorant of your own feelings, needs and reactions. But you may not even notice that since you are so focused on the BPD/NPD."

That's from an article by Randi Kreger: Are You An Emotional Caretaker

It's been challenging for me to not rescue. I love the feeling of being strong, wise, and needed, to be honest. It's strange to think that when I'm not rescuing, I feel weak, and sometimes I've even felt lost. But that's how I felt, especially in the beginning when I began to check myself. I had to start paying attention to the feelings that came up, both when I had the urge to rescue someone, and when I resisted those urges. They were pretty painful feelings.

Something else that Randi wrote, "You, however, see the clues but don't leave. Instead you feel drawn in, you may feel normal, you may feel the BPD/NPD needs you, and you may feel rewarded for your rescuer responsibilities. You feel a level of excitement and hope."

I'm not sure I felt excitement. I think I felt worth, like I had a purpose. I've seen people write a lot about whether their BPD ex loved them, but sometimes I wonder if I felt love. I believed it was love, but in the absence of being able to rescue my ex, I'm not sure I would've been as compelled to get involved with him. And if he didn't need me, maybe I would not have felt enough self-esteem.

Did anyone else feel that way?

I could't have said it any better

YES ^^^^

The only thing that confuses me is that I haven't rescued in any other r/s but this one.  There was something about her that brought out my protector/rescuer out full throttle.

[jhkbuzz]

This is so true for me, W2K. All of the men in my life have been "chief" types who are very competent in one way or another. But at some point, there was a story or event in which he was portrayed as a victim, and I felt a switch turn on in me. "That other person hurt you, but I'm special and strong and won't do that and we'll fall even more deeply in love."

This seems a common thought process for man of us... ."I am the strong, stable partner that you need. I will love you enough to heal your past hurts and make you whole."

That though ^ kept me in the r/s for far too long.

[jhkbuzz]

"Wow, people really hurt you. I would never do that to you because you're so wonderful. I'm going to be the first person to love you properly."

In my BPD relationship that is now ended…this is exactly how it began and continued, and a defective FOO or not, my desire to be kind and caring was not the problem.  It was the lack of boundaries, once I knew there was a serious problem.   This is where being the rescuer and fixer became skewed into being abused – and allowing it to continue with no boundaries.   To care for and help others is compassion and kindness – and these are good qualities.  It is lack of boundaries and allowing others to hurt us or accept abuse in the name of rescuing and caring – this is where I went wrong.       

Yes, yes and yes. What a great thread.

I was just sitting here thinking about boundaries... .and about how much time I spent trying to make my ex happy when it became clear that she was becoming unhappy in our r/s. She wasn't unhappy in the beginning, of course... .she LOVED me and NEEDED me and I could do no wrong. But then that ship started sinking... .

Anything I could think of I tried.  I was sure that if I could just find the right thing to do or find the right thing she needed I could make everything right with our world again.

But I just realized that this is EXACTLY how I spent my childhood - trying to manage my often angry, sometimes raging, sometimes just-on-the -border-of-being-physically-abusive mother. My little self tried to find the right thing to do or find the right thing she needed so I could make everything right with my world again... .

So did my protector/rescuer come out as our r/s developed?  Yes... .but it's not so simple - my exBPDgf is a waif and is not at all a rager like my mother.  But even so, other triggers caused FOO issues to come into play.

[livednlearned]

Where is line between compassion, caring and commitment not just to our partners, but also our children?  We all have different value systems, to some, to me, part of my value system was placing my faith and family first. 

I wish I could find this great quote I once found on the site. It was about family systems theory, how dysfunctional families do not have boundaries. Kids in these families don't even know what boundaries are. We get stretched so far into the dysfunction, it warps how we interact in intimate relationships. Even with values we can identify as our own (compassion, caring, commitment), we struggle because the boundaries are not clear.

Why is rescuing a bad thing.   Is it a bad thing? 

There is a workshop here on the difference between supporting someone and enabling.

Why do so many of us engage in enabling behavior?

* Because we confuse helping someone with doing it for them.

* Because we are pressured and manipulated into believing that we should do things for others.

* Because we fear the consequences if we don’t do things for them.

* Because we base our self esteem on helping others.

We tend to want to rescue and protect our loved ones from experiencing any pain or getting angry with us or pull away from us.

Maybe the distinction between supporting and enabling is important. The instinct to support someone can be healthy, it's when we cross the line from support to enable. We become the post that others hang their troubles on. We initially intended it to be a way to express love and support, but then next thing we know, the person carrying around a thousand tons of woe has just set it on top of our shoulders, and skipped off to generate more woe, only to bring that back too.

Is it simply about boundaries then? I have values, I have the instinct to support. But I didn't understand healthy boundaries. So maybe the instinct to rescue (support) is fine, it's the lack of boundaries that turns this into a problem?

Exactly what you say here, Survived:

To care for and help others is compassion and kindness – and these are good qualities.  It is lack of boundaries and allowing others to hurt us or accept abuse in the name of rescuing and caring – this is where I went wrong.       

I do think that I am prone to associate my self worth with helping others. If I didn't help others, I wouldn't feel like me.    I'm curious if there is something worth healing there. Why heal something that seems inherently good? Or inherently part of who I am? The only time I think otherwise is when I recognize that people have to experience pain in order to grow. Who am I to deny them that? I'm trying to learn how to be a good coach, and pause when I feel tempted to fix something by doing it myself.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm curious if there is something worth healing there. Why heal something that seems inherently good? Or inherently part of who I am?

Reading your post I'd say that both parts are true:

This sounds like something for you to heal.

I do think that I am prone to associate my self worth with helping others.

You are worthy, whether you are helping somebody else or not.

This next sounds like something that is who you are. 'Tho if you healed the part above, it might change... .or not. Time will tell.

If I didn't help others, I wouldn't feel like me.    

[livednlearned]

I'm curious if there is something worth healing there. Why heal something that seems inherently good? Or inherently part of who I am?

Reading your post I'd say that both parts are true:

This sounds like something for you to heal.

I do think that I am prone to associate my self worth with helping others.

You are worthy, whether you are helping somebody else or not.

This next sounds like something that is who you are. 'Tho if you healed the part above, it might change... .or not. Time will tell.

If I didn't help others, I wouldn't feel like me.    

Is it something to heal, though? Maybe it's just being human.

I'm starting to think it's more about the latter. Meaning, we have to weigh all the time, in all of our interactions, whether we have the resources to help someone else. I feel good when I take care of myself. Sometimes I help other people, and that feels good too.

I don't know. I look around at the relationships in my life. How I spend my time. There is room for improvement, but a lot of it feels healthy. It reminds me of something a friend of mine said. She's a professor in the school of social work, and she said sometimes you just have to like who you are, even when you aren't perfect.

Maybe what I'm learning from this thread is that rescuing is a combination of support and enabling. The urge or instinct to rescue is not pathological, it's when you have no breaks that it becomes a problem. Before, I was a combination of rescue + low self esteem + no boundaries. When it's rescue + self worth + good boundaries, maybe the urge to support is ok. It just needs to be double checked for quality assurance  after a lifetime of doing it the way that didn't work.

[Panda39]

It seems to be about boundaries... .helping, supporting, rescuing but knowing when it''s time to bow out... .before it moves into co-dependence or something unhealthy.  Being self aware and not forgetting to take care of ourselves.

[Grey Kitty]

This sounds like something for you to heal.

I do think that I am prone to associate my self worth with helping others.

Is it something to heal, though? Maybe it's just being human.

Here is the area for healing I saw:

If you can only value yourself when you are helping others, I would conclude that you do not believe that you, yourself, are worthy of love and value.

If you have self-worth that isn't tied to helping others, as well as valuing that supportive side of yourself... .then I'm finding/making a problem where there is none. That is indeed one aspect of being a good human 

[Survived?]

Hey reforming, 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I certainly agree.   

In my own search for healing, one of the most difficult is understanding love and commitment.  What I found and working hard to better understand is love itself.   Have you ever explored the Greek philosophies on love? Very interesting.   They had very unique views that love is not, as our culture accepts so simplistically, a catch all word for everything.  To the Greeks there were very unique types of love and almost all of them can be healthy or unhealthy taken to the extreme. 

One of the things I struggled with in my r/s was unconditional love but it was not the only thing.   What I am learning is unconditional love is only part of a healthy relationship.  The other foundational parts include a healthy self-love to begin with, trust and boundaries.   

I would add only this…I still love my BPD unconditionally.  Inside of her is a gravely wounded child who never asked for her disorder in life, and I would wish this pain and suffering for no one.  I still believe in unconditional love, and without boundaries and trust…I will do so from a very good and safe distance away.   

There is another aspect in my situation that is relevant and it ironically crosses into a different kind of love.  My exBPD and I have a D13 who will either learn to love and accept her BPD mother unconditionally – or hate her.   I hope my D13 finds forgiveness, kindness, love and compassion and learns – unconditional love – along with very healthy boundaries.   

Survived       

[Crumbling]

Someone commented about the Greek definitions of love.  There are five, in most schools of thought:

Mania - obsessive love, desire to own/have.  Like how you'd love to have that big steak, or whatever.

Eros - intimate love, sexual passion, appreciation for the beauty within another person.  the emotional surge in a new relationship.  very volatile and forever changing.

Philos - brotherly love, a bond between two people over time, based on similarities.  Friendships. 

Storge - motherly love, parental love, between a dependent and caregiver.

Agape - the perfect love, loving just because, with no dependance on circumstances.   Some call this charity, or good will... .doing for the sake of another person's good... .this does NOT include, 'at your own expense'. 

Love has to be in you, to be given to another person.  If your love bucket is empty, you can't give love to another.  My grandbaby told me that when she was six years old.    When I asked her where she learned that, she said, from my heart... .kids so are amazing.

This is why I don't like the term 'unconditional love'... .if you are giving, and being hurt by it, then the love inside of you wont last long, and in the end, you help no one.  Perfect love isn't unconditional, it's agape.

People can love other people in any of the five ways to love... .not all of them are healthy, obviously.  And a relationship can go through stages of the different types of love, but without having that consistent, steady agape love as the backbone of the r/s, there will be many struggles and pains... .sort of like our BPD r/s's.

Just thought the info may add food for thought.

 ,

Crumbsy

[livednlearned]

If you can only value yourself when you are helping others, I would conclude that you do not believe that you, yourself, are worthy of love and value.

I don't only value myself when I'm helping others, but it does make me feel better. I'm ok with that distinction -- maybe it means something but I'm also willing to let that just be a quirk. I will admit that it's easier for me to socialize if I have something to do in social situations. If I'm teaching or giving a talk or doing charitable work, it's easier. But I'm also ok just being in the milieu not really doing anything specific. I'm starting a mindfulness-based stress reduction class this week, something I've wanted to do for years. Just thinking about the class has made me much more aware of the being/doing thing, where I start to fuss around and do things instead of just being still and quiet. 

You made me realize that there is an important distinction here. One is being aware of rescue tendencies while in a BPD relationship, or curbing/healing those tendencies in other intimate relationships. The other is being aware of how we find our worth, and what that means in terms of how we are in the world.

[Reforming]

Hi Survived and Crumbling

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I have read a fair bit of classical literature and I agree that the ancient Greek conception of love being multifaceted is an interesting one.

The Greek understanding of religion, multiple gods who were physically present and intervened, sometimes capriciously, in their day to day lives is very different from ours.

They saw romantic love as an electric force, a kind of madness with a frightening power that could make you helpless or ill. A glance from Aphrodite or Eros could strike you like a bolt of lightening

I think for most of us in the west, our conception of love is hugely influenced by Christianity. Turning the other cheek, the crucifixion and martyrdom all espouse the ideas renunciation and self sacrifice.

These ideas aren't unique to christianity. The golden rule is much older and other religions, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism espouse similar altruistic ideals.

But the defining moment of christianity, the crucifixion, celebrates the ideal of personal sacrifice for the greater good and it's shaped our culture and literature for hundreds of years. Even if you aren't religious it's difficult not to be influenced by this message

I am still uncertain about the existence of unconditional love, but I recognise that we all love differently and that you can still love someone even when you recognise that being with them is destructive.

I feel that there are definitely different types of love, but I think they are healthier when there is foundation of mutual respect, kindness and honesty.

I know how difficult it is stop loving someone. I still care deeply about my ex and I probably always will. She is part of my memories, my life experience and my identity. If I excised this I would lose something precious and I would no longer be me

I do recognise that I cannot be with her and give myself the love that I need. I found detaching very hard and I was able to make a clean break. I can't imagine how difficult it must be when you have children.

Survived thanks again for sharing and I hope that your daughter can learn to love her mother and herself as well.

Livednlearned thanks for sharing your thoughts as well

I think reaching out to help others can be a great thing.

It helps us to connect and bond with the people around us, and reminds us that were are not alone. Giving to others is a good thing as long as we don't lose sight of our needs and give with unhealthy motives and expectations.

Giving because we want to control others and make them love us back is not healthy

Thanks for posting everyone. It's a really worthwhile thread

Reforming

[Mutt]

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