Do BPDs feel that it is ok to abuse us

[downnout98]

I am just wondering if in their heads, BPDs feel that we will always be around, and that it is ok to abuse us. My ex pretty much said that during this last break up. After she has broken up with me countless number of times, she told me that all couples fight. She said that this was normal to her because anger runs in her family and they are accustomed to lashing out in hurtful ways. I was just too sensitive, she explained. Over the past three years, I have packed my clothes and left her house too many times, only to fall victim to the crying, begging and threatening. I always came back. She would always threaten me with if I didn't come back soon, she would loose her love for me and go with someone that "loved" her. That men wanted to be with her and we're waiting for me to mess up. I stayed away for a few weeks this time but we remained in contact as she was begging for me to come back. As I was about to come back, she became stone cold and found my replacement. In three days with this new man, she is now 100% committed to him. She said that I had the chance but since I decided to stay away, she was moving on. This is all my fault by the way according to her. She kicked me out, she cheated on me in the past, she would take revenge on me for perceived hurts I caused, she would create back up plans with different men until I would catch her, verbally abusive, cold, etc, etc. But that was all in the past she said. She couldn't understand why I stayed away and said that she never thought that I would not come back. Her own daughter said that if I didn't come back, then I really didn't love her.

[AwakenedOne]

This is all my fault by the way according to her.

Her own daughter said that if I didn't come back, then I really didn't love her.

1. Her brain/personality is at fault.

Of course you and I both have faults and make mistakes also unless we are robots. If you tell your story to a 1000 people 999 of them will say it was her fault. The one who will say it's yours would be another pwBPD.

2. This disorder revolves around need. Sadly I wouldn't call what they have for us "love". They have no clue what the definition of love is. So when they say you didn't love them keep that in mind. I bet you understand love though, that's why you left.

3. When you go away it triggers their huge abandonment fear. It's not your fault though for getting out of a bad situation even temporarily in the hopes that she would wise up or change and then you could go back.

[WrennyJen]

This post is close to what I am going through right now... .my BPDso and I have broken up and recycled so many times and it's always because I can't take it any more and I leave.  Then he contacts me and for a while it's ok but then it all comes out... .that it's my fault because I left, I caused all the problems in the relationship and I should have just stuck it out.  He's actually told me to "shove those emotions down like a real woman and live with it" and "if I'm not happy then no one will be."   And he always implies that there are hordes of girls waiting in the wings... .not that being with me has ever stopped him from indulging.  We had a huge fight last night... .no, not even a fight... .it was him raging at me for 4 hours after a TINY misstep.  Afterwards he begged me not to leave him.  I told him I wouldn't but all I want is to get away.  I feel bad because he is in a bad situation right now but it is not of my doing and I can't be responsible for him.  At this point I am just afraid of him trying to get revenge.  Another girl is fine with me though... .divert that attention!

[Trog]

Those with BPD/NPD do not accept any responsibility within the relationship, nothing they do could possibly be considered abuse as that would take self examination and a pinch of humility, neither of which can exist in their wounded persona. So, in their eyes, us Nons just stop accepting behaviour we had accepted perfectly well before, so obviously, we're just having a hissy fit and all they need to do is wait it out (and during this time are free to shag around and behave how they like... .of course) and eventually, when we have forgotten the pain (or in their eyes, "gotten over it" we'll be there for them to abuse (... .) once more.

So a) its ok cos its not abuse and b) we recycle so many times and have shown them we have weak boundaries, so why wouldn't be there for them next time?

[Gonzalo]

I don't think so - from what I've read, observed, and experienced (especially some of the stuff my ex- said after we split) their perception is so skewed from reality that they don't see the stuff they do as abuse. My ex- is convinced that our arguments were mutual, even though her logic is either 'I kept yelling at him, he wasn't able to find the magic words that would make me stop so it was as much his fault as mine' and 'I kept yelling at him, eventually he yelled back, so it was a mutual argument'. They see the baseline shouting and arguing and leaving as normal behavior, and seem amazed that anyone would consider it even unusual, much less abusive. It's honestly really sad.

[AwakenedOne]

":)o BPDs feel that it is ok to abuse us?"

Yes.

I was told "You deserved it" or the even more ridiculous one "You made me do it" countless times.

[Trog]

":)o BPDs feel that it is ok to abuse us?"

Yes.

I was told "You deserved it" or the even more ridiculous one "You made me do it" countless times.

I was told I "deserved it" recently when I was mugged. I'm even deserving of abuse from others, not just the BPDex!

[Climbmountains91]

Mine told me i abused him by constantly hanging up on him when he would rage on the phone or when we've fell out and it was me falling out with him over silly things :/. This was 2 years ago now and were not like that as such anymore but come on really? Thats abuse.

[Mike-X]

My gf felt shame and guilt. However, she only ever admitted it in the form of 'I am leaving you so that you can find someone better.' in the heat of an argument or when I explicitly confronted her about her behavior, she would say things like I brought it out in her, etc. But she knows differently. She knows that she did similar things to SOs and others in past. She has actually hinted all along that she has known that she has had some issue, with her very defensive 'I'm not crazy' responses etc., even though I never said anything about being crazy.

[iluminati]

The short answer, believe it or not, is no.  There's generally as moral as anyone else when it comes to abuse.  The long answer is that they are usually so caught up in their own minds that they have no concept of how other people actually feel.  They can assume anger from a neutral expression, for example.  They dysregulate so bad that they have no conscious control of their actions.  They often get into such a panic that they think "anything to take away the pain"... .even if there is no immediate threat.  People with BPD will cheat on you because you were 15 minutes late, because in their head, you being 15 minutes late will eventually lead to you having unprotected sex with their mom, sister and best friend while she's tied up in a corner and all of you laugh at them.

Sounds ridiculous?  Well, for an untreated person with BPD, that's just Tuesday.

[downnout98]

They really are caught up in their own minds. Sadly I broke contact with my ex gf this weekend to exchange stuff. The exchange was quick, and I said very little. Of course she was all done up with heals, jeans, hair, etc, etc. Didnt effect me though. I said see ya later and she responded, "that's it?" And then asked if I was mad at her. Lol. I couldn't resist saying "what do you want for me?" "You broke up with me. You met a man while we were working things out, and then within three nights of going out with this guy, he is staying the weekend at the house, hanging out with you and your daughter the next week, staying with you every chance he gets. What do you think?" I said that no woman in their right mind would do such a thing unless there was a relationship that already started before with him, therefore she was cheating on me before the break up. She stood there and didn't deny anything, got upset and left. Honestly, what does she expect from me? A hug and a kiss to say hey How are things going with my replacement? Lol.

[hope2727]

They really are caught up in their own minds. Sadly I broke contact with my ex gf this weekend to exchange stuff. The exchange was quick, and I said very little. Of course she was all done up with heals, jeans, hair, etc, etc. Didnt effect me though. I said see ya later and she responded, "that's it?" And then asked if I was mad at her. Lol. I couldn't resist saying "what do you want for me?" "You broke up with me. You met a man while we were working things out, and then within three nights of going out with this guy, he is staying the weekend at the house, hanging out with you and your daughter the next week, staying with you every chance he gets. What do you think?" I said that no woman in their right mind would do such a thing unless there was a relationship that already started before with him, therefore she was cheating on me before the break up. She stood there and didn't deny anything, got upset and left. Honestly, what does she expect from me? A hug and a kiss to say hey How are things going with my replacement? Lol.

Yup that last line really sums it up. Mine couldn't believe that I wasn't going to be there for him to help him through the greatest heartache of his life. Ummmmn no. You broke up with me so no. I have my own life to recover thanks.

[Gonzalo]

Ummmmn no. You broke up with me so no. I have my own life to recover thanks.

When I mentioned to my ex- that she had broken up with me, she said I should stop being mean. When I pointed out that she had told me that we were broken up on her birthday, then reiterated it the day after while throwing the cake in the sink, she just kind of mumbled something.

[downwhim]

Honestly sometimes I think they don't remember that THEY BROKE UP WITH US. It was cruel, it was quick, it was impulsive and it was painful.  They have a lapse of memory or something and we all know part of this illness is a lack of empathy. We are suppose to recover as fast as they do and ignore it and move on... .

[HappyNihilist]

I agree that, in general, they don't feel like it's ok to abuse people who love them (which adds to their sense of shame, guilt, etc.) - but, when it comes to their emotional survival, they're truly incapable of thinking of anyone else's feelings.

People with BPD will cheat on you because you were 15 minutes late, because in their head, you being 15 minutes late will eventually lead to you having unprotected sex with their mom, sister and best friend while she's tied up in a corner and all of you laugh at them.

This is about as accurate a rendition of the BPD thought process as I've ever seen.

Honestly sometimes I think they don't remember that THEY BROKE UP WITH US.

The selective amnesia is maddening, isn't it? Every time my exBPDbf contacts me, it's like we just talked yesterday and nothing bad ever went down. 

A few months ago - about 7 months out from the breakup - we were talking, and I said something about having a "rough time" and being depressed for a few months. And he asked, completely guilelessly, "Why were you having a rough time?"

I didn't even respond. After a few moments of silence, the finally went on for him.

[downnout98]

It is crazy. After my exBPDgf broke up with me, she went into the begging phase. When I was refusing to come back, she said she couldn't understand why I didn't trust her. I brought up the fact that she has broken up with me more times than I have fingers and toes, cheated on me, been verbally abusive. She then said that I need to quit living in the past. That she forgave herself for those things and I need to get over it. I almost laughed because I couldn't believe it. Totally oblivious. I wonder why I stayed so long in the r/s.

[going places]

Those with BPD/NPD do not accept any responsibility within the relationship, nothing they do could possibly be considered abuse as that would take self examination and a pinch of humility, neither of which can exist in their wounded persona.

They are superior, perfect, and without fault. (in their minds)

They will say "that's my fault, I am sorry" to APPEAR like they are showing humility, but in reality, deep in their minds, they "know" what they did was "justified" because "the other person made me do it". So what "appears" to be humility is just mask covering their TRUE feelings:

So, in their eyes, us Nons just stop accepting behaviour we had accepted perfectly well before, so obviously, we're just having a hissy fit and all they need to do is wait it out (and during this time are free to shag around and behave how they like... .of course) and eventually, when we have forgotten the pain (or in their eyes, "gotten over it" we'll be there for them to abuse (... .) once more.

They can abuse and abuse, and they think a quick "I'm sorry" is like a Magic Eraser... .everything just disappears and everyone is hunky dorey. Um no, it does not work like that.

What is it with people who think just saying "I'm sorry" is enough?

It's like 2 kids on the playground. Kid 1 shoves kid 2 to the ground because he won't share the ball.

Teacher tells Kid 1 to say "I'm sorry" to Kid 2... .so through grit teeth, and with burning anger in his heart and mind Kid 1 says "SORRY"... .and Kid 2 is supposed to "accept that" and act like everything is ok?

OH HAIL NO.

Unacceptable.

There is a difference between 'being sorry' and asking for forgiveness.

So a) its ok cos its not abuse and b) we recycle so many times and have shown them we have weak boundaries, so why wouldn't be there for them next time?

What a surprise it was to my ex when I told him to get out in July 2014 AND I did not beg him to come back.

It was an even bigger surprise when I blocked him 1 month later and would only communicate w him via email.

It's absolutely amazing the night and day difference in myself after 90 days of NOT living with him.

Absolutely amazing.

He really thought he had his hooks in so deep I would never let go.

I am so thankful for the place that I went to where an advocate helped me to see what was happening.

Abuse is not just black eyes and broken bones.

[iluminati]

People with BPD will cheat on you because you were 15 minutes late, because in their head, you being 15 minutes late will eventually lead to you having unprotected sex with their mom, sister and best friend while she's tied up in a corner and all of you laugh at them.

This is about as accurate a rendition of the BPD thought process as I've ever seen.

Hey, I spent the first 3 1/2 years on here on the Staying side.  I am privy to the BPD thought process, and once you've seen it laid out, it becomes easy to write stuff like this.

It is crazy. After my exBPDgf broke up with me, she went into the begging phase. When I was refusing to come back, she said she couldn't understand why I didn't trust her. I brought up the fact that she has broken up with me more times than I have fingers and toes, cheated on me, been verbally abusive. She then said that I need to quit living in the past. That she forgave herself for those things and I need to get over it. I almost laughed because I couldn't believe it. Totally oblivious. I wonder why I stayed so long in the r/s.

I remember during my Staying days having the same conversations.  Quit living in the past, stop making me out to be so mean, etc.  It's like they're OK with being cruel to people so long as they don't have to consciously realize that they're being cruel.  Being triggered is a lifetime get out of jail free card that would allow them to recreate school shootings, torture animals, start wars and clean out all of the junk food in supermarkets in 14 different American counties without any responsibility.  It's ridiculous, but that's the mindset they walk around with.

[raisins3142]

The short answer, believe it or not, is no.  There's generally as moral as anyone else when it comes to abuse.  The long answer is that they are usually so caught up in their own minds that they have no concept of how other people actually feel.  

Yep, I think it is a decreased ability to "model" the experiences of others, to walk in another's shoes so to speak.

Whenever I was with my uBPDexgf and another person (especially another male), she could not have a conversation with 3 participants.  Instead, she would dominate the conversation and actively ignore/talk over me to the point where I would give up and just stare off.  She would only address them and be in a lively back and forth with them, but with her still center stage (and usually talking about something no one would actually care about and being overly dramatic).  This would go on for hours sometimes.  The other person would try to include me but she would nip it in the bud.  I would sometimes say "well, if you would let me talk instead of ignore and talk over me" but that had no effect. Afterward, she would have no idea why I was upset with her.  She said that no one else had ever mentioned that to her.  My reply was "you either drove them off and it was one of those friends you lost for seemingly "no reason" or they just kept quiet, but nearly all humans consider that type of treatment rude."  They barely understand themselves, how can they be expected to understand how a NON's brain works?

[Tim300]

They barely understand themselves, how can they be expected to understand how a NON's brain works?

Very good question.  Just as we are utterly confused by them, they must be utterly confused by us -- and by "us" we're talking about ~98% of the population (ignoring other PDs).  Must be quite a confusing world for them.     

[Mr Hollande]

Not all the time. After every rage I would get regrets from her. How genuine they were is anyone's guess.

Towards the end when she, from what I understand now, was tying up loose ends, or trying to at least, she did actually say that she understood how she had put me through a lot and that she knew it hadn't been fair on me. It's about a year ago now so details have faded but I think I even got an apology from her.

That only happened once though. We recycled soon after and the bitterness grew yet more bitter than it already was. I assume on both sides. The last conversations we had, post final break up, there was no regret, shame or understanding what so ever. None that she was willing to let on to me anyway.

[downnout98]

They barely understand themselves, how can they be expected to understand how a NON's brain works?

Very good question.  Just as we are utterly confused by them, they must be utterly confused by us -- and by "us" we're talking about ~98% of the population (ignoring other PDs).  Must be quite a confusing world for them.     

It must be hard for them, because I am utterly confused by it. As soon as she starts to see how she has been abusive and why I had difficulty in trusting her, she flips it to it being my fault and how I did not make her feel secure. Just when I think she is about to turn left, she takes a hard right. I hope to not have to deal with this anymore. So emotionally draining.

[raisins3142]

They barely understand themselves, how can they be expected to understand how a NON's brain works?

Very good question.  Just as we are utterly confused by them, they must be utterly confused by us -- and by "us" we're talking about ~98% of the population (ignoring other PDs).  Must be quite a confusing world for them.    

It must be hard for them, because I am utterly confused by it. As soon as she starts to see how she has been abusive and why I had difficulty in trusting her, she flips it to it being my fault and how I did not make her feel secure. Just when I think she is about to turn left, she takes a hard right. I hope to not have to deal with this anymore. So emotionally draining.

I teach and one hard thing is when a student really struggles with a concept that you know secondhand and that most students get with no problem.

I once had a student not be able to complete a simple "coding" where you put a T under an A, a G under a C, etc (might give away the subject matter) and you just complete a string of letters that way.  So TG becomes AC.

The student could not do it, follow the 4 rules or so.  I was at my wits end, I could not break it down any more simply I thought.  So, I had them try to explain it to me, and I could catch the "glitch" moment.  I ended up helping them.

But afterwards, I simply couldn't get why a 1 to 1 encoding was difficult (like replace As with 1 and Bs with 2, etc to make a code of sorts).  I couldn't get it.  They might not have understood why almost everyone else got it immediately.

I was kind to them but the gap was odd and uncomfortable.

I see BPDs as the emotional equivalent.  

For instance, my uBPDexgf had no idea why ignoring me in public for hours on end would make me upset.  She thought that it was needy to be upset when someone addresses you and you don't even turn to look at them or acknowledge that they had spoken.

[Mike-X]

For instance, my uBPDexgf had no idea why ignoring me in public for hours on end would make me upset.  She thought that it was needy to be upset when someone addresses you and you don't even turn to look at them or acknowledge that they had spoken.

If the shoe were on the other foot, would she characterize herself as acting 'needy', and wouldn't she let you know how wrong and unloving it is to ignore an SO in public like that? If so, then it is not the case that she really believes what she said about you being 'needy'. Her comment sounds like an attempt at rationalization for her acting poorly in response to being upset about something, and it seems to go along with the BPD pattern of trying to avoid their own sense of worthlessness after acting poorly. In fact, this seems to be a good example of subtle gas-lighting that takes place in relationships, but more frequently in relationships with someone living with BPD.  I would doubt that it was thought-out at all, just her reaction to avoid dealing with her own sense of worthlessness.

It must be hard for them, because I am utterly confused by it. As soon as she starts to see how she has been abusive and why I had difficulty in trusting her, she flips it to it being my fault and how I did not make her feel secure. Just when I think she is about to turn left, she takes a hard right. I hope to not have to deal with this anymore. So emotionally draining.

Do you think that seeing her own abusive behavior affected her esteem, possibly bringing up her deep sense of worthlessness or seeing herself like those who have abused her in her past (IDK her background, etc.)? The flipping and blaming could then be her defense mechanisms to avoid dealing with her own issues of low self-worth. Regardless of her motivation and her seeing it as abusive or not (a counselor is going to be better equipped to unpack that psychological damage), you might just want to focus on establishing the boundaries for behaviors that you find unacceptable.

[Mr Hollande]

In those desperate last 6 months of our relationship, when the chaos and pain reached its pinnacle, she once confessed, if that is the right word, the pain and destruction she had caused to those close to her. Her son and his father specifically. The word distraught couldn't even begin to describe how she sounded when talking about it. I denied this was the case and consoled her as best I could because I didn't believe it was true. I do now. Remembering the pain she was in at the time, with the resurfacing of that dreadful insight, I can well understand her need for the various tools of denial common to BPD sufferers. I think anyone that has caused so much destruction has to, however false or reconstructed, keep it under several layers of justification and denial in order to keep living.

[downnout98]

Do you think that seeing her own abusive behavior affected her esteem, possibly bringing up her deep sense of worthlessness or seeing herself like those who have abused her in her past (IDK her background, etc.)? The flipping and blaming could then be her defense mechanisms to avoid dealing with her own issues of low self-worth. Regardless of her motivation and her seeing it as abusive or not (a counselor is going to be better equipped to unpack that psychological damage), you might just want to focus on establishing the boundaries for behaviors that you find unacceptable.[/quote]
It breaks my heart because I feel that I really showed her unconditional love and showed her that I loved her for who she was inside more that her outside. She is beautiful and I always felt that she thought that was all she was. She always used it to her advantage. I used to hug her from behind in front of mirror and as we looked at ourselves in the mirror, I would say that I wished she could see what I saw. I was always talking about what was on the inside, and I guess really what she could be without the disorder. I was always hopeful. Maybe I was foolish to think that it would change and the wonderful person that she often displayed would stick around.

[Blimblam]

Do you think that seeing her own abusive behavior affected her esteem, possibly bringing up her deep sense of worthlessness or seeing herself like those who have abused her in her past (IDK her background, etc.)? The flipping and blaming could then be her defense mechanisms to avoid dealing with her own issues of low self-worth. Regardless of her motivation and her seeing it as abusive or not (a counselor is going to be better equipped to unpack that psychological damage), you might just want to focus on establishing the boundaries for behaviors that you find unacceptable.

It breaks my heart because I feel that I really showed her unconditional love and showed her that I loved her for who she was inside more that her outside. She is beautiful and I always felt that she thought that was all she was. She always used it to her advantage. I used to hug her from behind in front of mirror and as we looked at ourselves in the mirror, I would say that I wished she could see what I saw. I was always talking about what was on the inside, and I guess really what she could be without the disorder. I was always hopeful. Maybe I was foolish to think that it would change and the wonderful person that she often displayed would stick around. [/quote]
I could have wrote that myself after my first BPD exgf down out.  If  you look at the facing the facts article on the site.  They have on the list of beliefs that keep us stuck that love is enough to prevail or something like that.  Unfortunately love is not enough to "cure" the disorder.  It is a really good point to grieve on though.  A song that helps me grieve in that particular point is the song "sleeping beauty" by a perfect circle.  

Here's a line from the song "drunk on ego trully though I could make it right if I kissed you one more time to help you face the nightmare. Coax or tick or drive or drag the demons from you such a fool to think that I could wake you from your slumber. That I could actually heal you."

Listening to that song singing along and crying to it unlocked a lot of doors within myself and I learned a lot I made a lot of foo connections and had a lot of breakthroughs to that song.  It is a very powerful healing tool.

[downnout98]

Thank you Blimblam for the song. I downloaded it and you are right , it is so fitting. My ex is really nuts. She was trying to break NC by texting me how she was crying for me last night and saying how she supposedly talks to the new guy about me all t he time. That he is getting tired of it. I don't believe her. Or if she is, she is doing it to manipulate him. Funny that in her texts she goes from loving and missing me right back to how I abandoned her and she is happy and moving on. I'm ignoring them. She is just trying to keep me on the back burner now. I know better now thanks to everyone here on this site.

[goateeki]

They barely understand themselves, how can they be expected to understand how a NON's brain works?

Very good question.  Just as we are utterly confused by them, they must be utterly confused by us -- and by "us" we're talking about ~98% of the population (ignoring other PDs).  Must be quite a confusing world for them.     

It must be hard for them, because I am utterly confused by it. As soon as she starts to see how she has been abusive and why I had difficulty in trusting her, she flips it to it being my fault and how I did not make her feel secure. Just when I think she is about to turn left, she takes a hard right. I hope to not have to deal with this anymore. So emotionally draining.

I got another choice nugget from my T this morning, and it had the same effect as some of the things he told me last week about pwBPD not being "moral actors" in the conventional sense of the word.  This morning he told me that it is very unlikely that she ever saw the abuse -- unbelievably stringent, demanding, shaming behavior -- as being wrong in any way.  He explained that she probably saw, for example, her yelling at me about my particular method of folding towels (which resulted in a folded towel of precisely the same dimensions as the towels she folded via her own mandatory method) as something I compelled her to do.

I look back on what I endured and I feel as angry at myself as I do at her.     

[raisins3142]

They barely understand themselves, how can they be expected to understand how a NON's brain works?

Very good question.  Just as we are utterly confused by them, they must be utterly confused by us -- and by "us" we're talking about ~98% of the population (ignoring other PDs).  Must be quite a confusing world for them.     

It must be hard for them, because I am utterly confused by it. As soon as she starts to see how she has been abusive and why I had difficulty in trusting her, she flips it to it being my fault and how I did not make her feel secure. Just when I think she is about to turn left, she takes a hard right. I hope to not have to deal with this anymore. So emotionally draining.

I got another choice nugget from my T this morning, and it had the same effect as some of the things he told me last week about pwBPD not being "moral actors" in the conventional sense of the word.  This morning he told me that it is very unlikely that she ever saw the abuse -- unbelievably stringent, demanding, shaming behavior -- as being wrong in any way.  He explained that she probably saw, for example, her yelling at me about my particular method of folding towels (which resulted in a folded towel of precisely the same dimensions as the towels she folded via her own mandatory method) as something I compelled her to do.

I look back on what I endured and I feel as angry at myself as I do at her.     

I think the most common "bad" thing that even Nons do is lie.

With pwBPD, this seems to be on steroids.

They see nothing wrong with manipulating truth because they think everyone does it and it is simply how they choose to navigate and control.  It is not a moral concern and they don't think of it until they are caught.