Are educational consultants really helpful? Wilderness Programs?

[Parents! Get help here!]

For many months we have been struggling with whether to put our DD in RTC, Wilderness program, Transitional Programs. Our heads are spinning. Many centers won't accept our DD unless we work with and Educational Consultant. Costs of course are always of concern. Yesterday, finally spoke with an EC. Learned about treatment options we did not know existed. Why are all these centers so hard to find out about? But my real question: Has anyone worked through and EC? Have you found this helpful? 

My second question - has anyone had experience with wilderness programs?

Our DD just turned 18 so we are now looking at young adult center... .

[Tamara96]

For many months we have been struggling with whether to put our DD in RTC, Wilderness program, Transitional Programs. Our heads are spinning. Many centers won't accept our DD unless we work with and Educational Consultant. Costs of course are always of concern. Yesterday, finally spoke with an EC. Learned about treatment options we did not know existed. Why are all these centers so hard to find out about? But my real question: Has anyone worked through and EC? Have you found this helpful? 

My second question - has anyone had experience with wilderness programs?

Our DD just turned 18 so we are now looking at young adult center... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Thursday]

Hi Tamara-

We put my BPDSD23 into the SUWS wilderness program when she was 15. She was there for approx. 3 months.

The "therapeutic" influence was not very strong- I think to a great extent she had them fooled about why she was there. We placed her there due to disintegrating behavior at school which included disrespect for her teachers (threatening them) to skipping school and cutting classes. She was failing all of her classes as well.

She "fooled" them that she was there for drug abuse (which was a part of the problem but not as full blown as she described... .this gave her "cred" with the other kids who in general found her very immature and obnoxious (which she certainly was at the time).

The piece of this that helped us was that she learned that we were willing to do something as drastic as sending her away.

Most of the other kids there were leaving SUWS for therapeutic boarding schools and we told her that this was an option for us should her behavior not change for the better. We left there with a behavioral contract- (Aspen groups are big on this) and she towed the line (pretty much) until she turned 18. She was no longer in high school when she turned 18 and had a job so we had given her a car (to make our lives easier) and she went all out with drug use which resulted in addiction for two years before we figured out what was going on. Long story.

SUWS gave us (her Dad and Me) a chance to regroup and define what was important to deal with and what we could put on the back burner.

She is sober now and doing well. We have AA to thank for this. She is fully invested in AA and we honestly are just thankful to have her sponsor in her life as she hears similar stuff from her sponsor as she hears from us.

I think SUWS is very expensive for what you get. If I had it to do all over I would have saved the money and taken her on a sailing trip for the entire summer- one on one- gotten her away from all of her negative influences and worked on her "broken" thinking... .sounds crazy but... .I believe the one on one would have done both of us some good, learning the sailing skills to help me would have built her confidence and maybe while traveling on the ocean she could have calmed her self enough to learn how that feels.

I have a friend who took her daughter on a mission trip to AFrica and the girl was transformed- her sense of entitlement GONE and a desire to help others was firmly implanted into her head. Her daughter's behavior was dangerous beforehand (promiscuity, drugs, theft and she had dropped out of high school). That is where I got the idea of the sailing trip. Her Dad wasn't into the idea (understandable) and felt like SUWS was a safer bet. Now he feels like it really was a big waste of money. SD started acting out with the obnoxious and immature and entitled behavior again on the drive home... .several days drive and she was pretty much back to her old self by the time we got home. The behavioral contract kept her in check until she graduated from school but it was SUCH a struggle.

Thursday

[lbjnltx]

Hi Tamara,

When we were thinking about inpatient care/therapy programs my d's pdoc (psychiatrist) told me not to waste our money on a short term program"... .in other words... .wilderness.

We chose to go the RTC route which took almost a year... .no we did not use an EC... .just another layer of  confusion and uncertainty with EC.

It was the best choice.

lbj

[Tamara96]

Thank you for your advice and sharing your stories.

I have wondered iabiut the effectiveness of wilderness programs. DD's therapist says waste of money, her psychiatrist likes them! EC recommends them. But can't figure out how this help kid w BPD

I have thought of taking DD away on a one on one journey so I was surprised to read that.

You have given me food for thought. Thank you.

Anyone has had experiences with any of this!

What about transitional programs?

[lbjnltx]

Transitional from what to what?

Most RTC's have a transitions step before graduation... .that comes after much hard work.

[Tamara96]

Some transition programs take young adults and help them transition to independent living, AND receiving therapeutic treatment. This was a recommended option by and EC.

[lbjnltx]

Thanks for coming back and answering!

That makes sense for your daughter to have a support system around her as she transitions to independent living.  Since she is 18 how does she feel about that?

lbj

[jellibeans]

My experience with our EC was terrible. We finally fired them and received half of our money back. They were not helpful and I had to go behind them and research the places they suggested. They did not reduce my stress they increased it. My personal opinion is that they prey of families in crisis and instill fear undermining your confidence in yourself. Although they say they receive no kick backs from RTC programs they recommend I frankly don't beleive them. The EC recommended places they had a relationship with and discouraged any other places we suggested. I would ask them when was the last time they were on site to inspect the RTC. Valerie Porr's book does not recommend wilderness programs at all and she is not keen on RTC. I will tell you with our recent search we found several RTC that had changed their name to hide from a poor reputation so that when you searched for them online you would not find the bad reviews and the court cases against them.

I have found that usually when a wildreness program is suggested it is usually because the kid is resistant to help... .wilderness programs are sometimes used to break them so they are ready to do the work in a RTC. I really don't think this is the approach to take with BPD and I think it opens a door to all kinds of abuse.

I am curious about your dd and why at the age of 18 you are looking for a placement for her?

[Tamara96]

Thank you for all your feedback.

To answer your very good questions: my 18yr dd does not know we are exploring these options, her psychiatrist has raised these with her and she was adamantly opposed.

As to why at 18 we are looking at placement: she is in denial that she needs therapy but strongly believes she has mood issues and is diligent about taking her meds (that simply take the edge off). Her psychiatrist and psychologist have spent the past 2 yrs trying to explain  to her this contradiction and the benefit of therapy. She used to attend, but when she turned 18 she dropped everything. Her psychiatrist is highly recommending wilderness camp in order to disconnect her from technology and spend 6 weeks doing some reflective work.

She dropped out of college, has no plans, doesnt want us part of her life but wants to live off our dime and on her conditions. She is a super bright and talented young woman, who's heart and head are in a fog making her unable to function independently. We are doing a "trial" independent living, where she stays at our cottage and teaches skiing. We are there every week end. She can't cope with that! She rarely goes to work, expects us to fill the fridge before we leave for the week (which I dont) and to pay all her bills.

We don't see how she will self actualize under these current conditions. I don't want to sound mean, but I can not allow her to live at home anymore, until she gets help. It has been to destructive to her younger siblings. I can get her an apartment and help her get on her feet, but I know she will not work and her current pattern will continue. And so I don't see how she will become independent, she needs help.

For these reasons her psychiatrist wants us to work with and EC, and to put her in a wildeness program. Her psychologist says it will be a waste of our money.

We just don't know what to do anymore. So many conflicting approaches and feedback.

Happy to hear suggestions... .Or other experiences.

[Thursday]

I don't want to sound mean, but I can not allow her to live at home anymore, until she gets help. It has been too destructive to her younger siblings.

Tamara- I don't think you sound mean- to me it sounds like you are trying trying to help your DD and haven't found out exactly how. Many of us here (if not everyone) has felt this way. You try this, you try that and every day the behaviors escalate or the kid deteriorates.

I'm not sure how a wilderness program would work for someone 18- couldn't they just walk off?

The wilderness program I described above did a few positive things for my BPDSD- first she believed deeply that she "couldn't do it" (carry the heavy pack, hike all day, sleep in a sleeping bag on the ground in a tent she made herself, cook her own food, adhere to rules about not talking to her peers) and soon she was doing it. Success with these things helped give her some valuable, real self-esteem. Prior to the Wilderness Program we had problems with her bragging and lying that she had done things she had never done. All of that came from low self-esteem. The culture of the wilderness camp was "why brag about stuff that isn't real- you are carrying a 50 pound pack on your back and that's something real".

It was also 9 weeks of daily therapeutic intervention which did help get a few messages through the neural pathways. If she had not gone it would have been 9 weeks of escalating trouble and/or laying on the couch watching TV and a stinking septic tank full of awful behavior. Srsly.

9 weeks wasn't long enough though and had my SD been able to check herself out she would have. She spent the first month of the program at base camp instead of out doing the hiking with her group for a minor (but real) medical problem, also a fake sprained ankle and she hid a key piece of her equipment so that she couldn't get back on trail for about four more days.

I can get her an apartment and help her get on her feet, but I know she will not work and her current pattern will continue. And so I don't see how she will become independent, she needs help.

Have you considered a contract, something you get her to sign that spells out the amount of time she gets your help/assistance? Maybe your idea of how her life should look and what she is actually capable of are too far apart. We have had to lower our expectations and happily, we've really figured out that our expectations were unfair to her. She is finding her own way. With a little bit of help. But boundaries aren't being crossed.

We build in time frames for reminders about deadlines. Right now we have a contract about her car note- co-signed by her Dad. He reminds her the week before the payment is due by saying "This is a reminder, as per our contract, that your car payment is due on xyz . "The rest of the time he stays out of it. I don't know if you have tried anything like this before. It has been affective with my SD- she gives input into the contract, says what is ok ahead of time. So it's not a big deal later.

I also wanted to say, you never know how they will cope with things unless they have to. As long as we protected her from outcomes WE felt better but she never got a chance to try, fail, learn. When we withdrew our financial assistance she had notice. She moved in with friends, it didn't work so she got a place she paid for and shared with a few others. It didn't work. She couch surfed until everyone got sick of it. Then she asked the family member with whom she lived if she could move in. The family member spelled out her boundaries and they have been happy with each other. It is a good situation. LIving with us was not a good situation- there was too much dysfunction here for her to find a way to normalize.

Hang in there and try to spend some special time with the younger siblings. And do something you want to do. This morning I worked on my flower beds in  the drizzle. So cold a few days ago and today I'm outside in shorts watching the squirrels fighting over something to eat.



Thursday

[jellibeans]

I really like the advise Thursday gave you. My dd will be 18 this summer and I know we will be facing the same troubles with her going forward. How to help without enabling and how to set boundaries so she can learn to stand on her own two feet.

I had looked at those wilderness programs a few years back and I think it is pretty easy for the person to leave or get kicked out if they want. I think they are very punative too... .things like earning a hairbrush etc... .I am sure there are some good programs out there but if you dd doesn't want to go and isn't willing to participate I am not sure it will be worth it.

I think the trial living on her own is a great idea. Is she working at all? What we have done with my dd is to drastically reduce what we give her money wise. We did this because we were concerned about her spending the money on drugs. She is in rehab right now but when she returns home we will probably limit her funds a great deal then too.

I guess what I would look at is how much are you giving her on an on going basis. Does she have a car? Do you pay for the gas? The insurance? Phone? My dd feels a great deal of entitlement when it comes to these kind of items. I would take stock of what you supply to her and start cutting back so she is more motivated to work or think about her future.

There was a post on the board recently and someone had done the same thing... .set up their daughter in an apartment and got her started... .then I think they started cutting back on support in phases so maybe phase one you paid rent and bought food and paid for phone... .phase two you cut out the phone or food... .spelling out a timeline so she is well prepared for the reductions in help.

Good luck... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Tamara96]

Thank you JellyBeans for your guidance.

We have thought about those options - setting up and cutting back slowly - that's what we have been doing but with little effect. Maybe her own place would be different than the current arrangement.

Yesterday though was a rough day for us - well for me - was told that I was not welcome in her life and doesn't want to talk to me. In fact she expressed not caring about anyone in the family. This is a new twist.  Luckily I realize she is projecting, but it pushed me a bit over the edge. Here we are facilitating baby steps to independent living, and so much more, and she has time to take a break from us but it's just not enough. It's been 3 months now and no change, no growth. Will more independent living really help?

Talked to a wilderness program again - highly recommended from numerous sources, totally NON punitive in their approach and very individualized program -lots of experience with BPD... .

Heart wrenching decisions we need to make in the next couple of weeks.

I really appreciate your support.

[jellibeans]

I do think there are wilderness programs out there that are good My concern is that your dd doesn't want to go. That doesn't seem like a good combination.

When my dd says she hates me or other rude comments I know that is when she is in the most pain. So important not to take those kind of comments personally. I remind my self I am not my dd's friend... .I am her mother.

I hope you find a way to help your dd. 

[Tamara96]

Thank you Jellibeans and everyone else.

In terms of she doesn't want to go to a wilderness program - of course she doesn't , who does! But some of the programs are more like meditation retreats - with lots of reflective work and introspective work. Wilderness programs get too much of the boot camp wrap. How to convince her that going to a quiet place is really the best way to get reconnected with herself... that's what's at the essence of DBT and all psychotherapy work.

[lbjnltx]

Hi Tamara,

Just wanted to check in and see how the search is going.

Have you talked to your daughter about going to a Wilderness program?

lbj

[Tamara96]

Thank you for reaching out.

The wilderness program we have found is more like a mediation retreat -in a therapeutic setting.

DD learned about it and refuses to discuss this possibility.

On the flip side = it forced her to talk to us again Nice to hear her voice:)

It is my understanding that no one goes to there programs quite willingly.

Waiting and seeing.

Still processing the paper work.

Giving DD an opportunity to respond with her own plan of actions.

We gave her 3 weeks to come up with her own plan and present it to us. Trying to empower her, but realistic that she does not have the capacity to implement.


i will keep you posted. I think it will drag out.

[lbjnltx]

Thanks for the update Tamara,

How long is the wilderness program you are considering?

What therapy model do they use there?

lbj

[Tamara96]

Sorry from being so quiet for so long.

I have been overwhelemed. :'(

DH couldn't agree to send our DD to wilderness. Wanted to give her one more chance... .I told him, it's just going to be one more chance that she doesn't know what do with.

DD came home at the end of ski season and within 2 weeks back to same old antics and some... .lies, deceit, and escalation... .

Long story short - she is not in a wilderness program and getting much needed support. We are getting so much support - it seems one out of two young adults in these programs suffer from similar issues... .so she is finding a lot of people to identify with. For once she doesn't feel different from every one else.

She is safe and I can sleep at night... .although I dream of her every night... .

I will keep you posted.

I think this was the hardest decision I ever made in my life. It also felt so right.

[lbjnltx]

So good to see you back Tamara96!

Glad to learn that your daughter and family are getting so much support.

Can you tell us what kind of program she is in?

[Tamara96]

For her privacy - I will not name the program at this time... .let's see what the outcome is... ., and if it's good I will recommend it.

What I can say is the focus of the program is individual therapy, rebuilding self confidence, and learning to become responsible, independent and self reliant. No levels, or punishments or rewards - these would not work for BPD traits or personality.

Of course, time will tell and it will all depend on her.

[Tamara96]

 

Best decision we ever made.

The amount of support she is getting every second of the day is phenomenal.

There was an NAMI video I watched -  and it's about how to get someone to seek mental health support. The conversation goes that their life is their normal - so why would they want help to change their normal. Listening to my DD before she left it was so clear that that is how she felt and saw things. Yes the chaos in her life made her miserable and unable to succeed, but that was not her fault, it was everyone else's fault. She said: "I'm good, it's everything else that is wrong in my life." That is her normal. But now she is in an environment that is slowly and gently breaking down that view of her life and of herself.

The good news, is she is slowly realizing (bit by bit) that her normal isn't a healthy and constructive normal. WOW! To get her to finally begin to see that has been a huge milestone. The door is slowly opening: to her being able to accept and benefit from treatment.

Feeling hopeful for the first time ever.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

This is wonderful news Tamara!

Is this a residential program (24/7 therapeutic environment) or is it a day treatment type program?

Are you getting direction and guidance from this program as well?

[Tamara96]

She is in a wilderness setting.

We are receiving a ton of support, and a lot of homework and readings.

For the first time we are fully integrated into her care - far beyond when she was hospitalized or with her various therapist. Our limited communication is much more meaningful.

It is by no means easy at all. The hardest and most painful decision we ever made. But so far it has given her a lease on a healthy life, and it has give us the support we never had before... .and an opportunity to mend our relationship that has been so devastated by BPD.

[Tamara96]

 

Our daughter has been 6 weeks in wilderness and so far it is really working well.

She is getting 24hr support, with no escaping herself. It is really, truly fantastic. Still a long journey ahead but in 6 weeks, more has been learned and realized than in 5 years of therapy.

My one frustration - why wont medical plans cover residential treatment for BPD but they will treat residential treatment for addiction! Our daughter has some of these struggles, but those are the result of unmanaged BPD. Very very frustrating!

But worth every penny - yes, one year's college tuition going into this, but it's all worth it, if it gives her a chance to have an independent life afterwards. (Our daughter was so bad that she could not function for more than 3 days alone, so independence was becoming a real struggle for this young adult.)

But we are lucky! Found the right program!

[lbjnltx]

It is great to hear this news Tamara!

The 24/7 therapeutic environment eventually does break through the hard outer shell and then the real work can begin.  It was the same for my daughter while in RTC.

I was hoping for much bigger changes regarding insurance coverage for mental illness with Obama Care... .still lots of work to be done to provide the much needed support for this population ( at any given time 22% of the US population suffers from a diagnosable mental illness). 

Please do continue to keep us posted on how your daughter is doing and what kind of support they are offering you and your husband. 

The right time, the right place, your daughter consenting to go,  the funds available... .it takes a lot more than luck for all of this to come to fruition.  Love, research, commitment, sacrifice, wisdom, hope, understanding, hard work, acceptance, and more love.

lbj

[Tamara96]

Best decision we ever made was to send our daughter to wilderness.

2 months of wilderness and our daughter is realizing she needs help and is making her own plans to eventually transition into another treatment center.

Highly recommend it!

[lbjnltx]

Wonderful news!

Keep us updated on how your d is doing and what the next step is.

lbj