Do They Grieve Later on or Further Down the Line?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I am sure this has been asked before but I am quite interested in people's views on this.

Having split in October and healthily gone non contact except for a text in December that I ignored (she is with the replacement she got with him a week after we split - clearly lined up and quite possibly an ex) - what I am interested in is whether they grieve an ex relationship later on or further down the line. We healthy types I guess grieve straight away and try and take time to process, but I wondered if with BPD they ignore it as they are with their new guy and I am blacker than black and the villain and evil. Then if things don't go well after the idealisation period however long that is, am I split white as they start to grieve later on the relationship they had? Is it like grieving in reverse or do they just forget it and I remain black?

Any thoughts or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[confused1730]

I am sure this has been asked before but I am quite interested in people's views on this.

Having split in October and healthily gone non contact except for a text in December that I ignored (she is with the replacement she got with him a week after we split - clearly lined up and quite possibly an ex) - what I am interested in is whether they grieve an ex relationship later on or further down the line. We healthy types I guess grieve straight away and try and take time to process, but I wondered if with BPD they ignore it as they are with their new guy and I am blacker than black and the villain and evil. Then if things don't go well after the idealisation period however long that is, am I split white as they start to grieve later on the relationship they had? Is it like grieving in reverse or do they just forget it and I remain black?

Any thoughts or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[CloseToFreedom]

I think the only way they grief, is that they lose the replacement and try to get back to you, and you ignore them. This will make them feel sorrow. But for how long? Until they find a new replacement I think.

Im not an expert but I really do think its not so much about WHO the replacement is, as long as he can give her enough supply to feel adored, to get a sense of self, to mirror him.

My ex was with me for 4,5 years but I don't think she ever really loved ME. If that was the case I wouldn't have to change so much about my personality and looks. She loved that I gave her enormous amounts of attention, and when that stopped when we started living together, because I thought it was finally time to work on ourselves and our career and what not, she stopped 'loving' me.

[CloseToFreedom]

And sorry for the double post but you shouldn't occupy your thoughts with this. I know its hard, Im guilty of it as well, but I know that in truth its not the way to go. We need to focus on ourselves and not our ex. The ex is the ex and we need to keep it that way. Whatever she feels and is going through isn't of our concern anymore.

[confused1730]

Thanks - and I know you are right. I guess I am unsure as to whether to expect or be on my guard further down the line that's all!

[BorisAcusio]

No, they can not endure the process of mourning.

Psychotherapy Of The Borderline Adult: A Developmental Approach James Masterson

The arrest also causes a failure to achieve object constancy. This has far-reaching clinical significance: ... .He cannot mourn. Any object loss or separation becomes a disastrous calamity. This can be seen clearly in the transference relationship during the therapist’s vacation period; because the patient does not feel that the doctor will return, he sets his defensive operations in motion well in advance to protect himself. Some styles of defense are emotionally withdrawing from the interviews in advance, actually physically leaving the doctor before he can leave the patient, complete emotional detachment, acting out by starting an affair, carrying through a previously tentative marriage possibility, and trying to provoke the therapist by, for example, coming late for appointments.

•The further importance of object constancy is illustrated by the fact that it is a prerequisite for that process so vital to the repair of an object loss—that is, mourning. If one cannot evoke mental images of the lost object, how can one resolve all the painful feelings caused by this loss to form new object relations? If one cannot mourn, he becomes fatally vulnerable to object loss.

Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism Otto F. Kernberg p. 35

Their depressive reactions take primitive forms of impotent rage and feelings of defeat by external forces, rather than mourning over good, lost objects and regret over their aggression toward themselves and others.

Reinforcing Kernberg's observation, Masterson in his book, Psychotherapy Of The Borderline Adult(p. 323)described the clinical experience of how a patient avoided mourning following the death of her daughter, using primite defense mechanisms.


According to Marsha Linehant [they]automatically inhibit the process by avoiding or distracting themselves from the relevant cues.

[Deeno02]

I dont think they do. If so, I'll never know about it because there isnt a snowball's chance in hell I will ever be around her if I can freakin help it. I barely survived this encounter.

[Reforming]

No, they can not endure the process of mourning.

Psychotherapy Of The Borderline Adult: A Developmental Approach James Masterson

The arrest also causes a failure to achieve object constancy. This has far-reaching clinical significance: ... .He cannot mourn. Any object loss or separation becomes a disastrous calamity. This can be seen clearly in the transference relationship during the therapist’s vacation period; because the patient does not feel that the doctor will return, he sets his defensive operations in motion well in advance to protect himself. Some styles of defense are emotionally withdrawing from the interviews in advance, actually physically leaving the doctor before he can leave the patient, complete emotional detachment, acting out by starting an affair, carrying through a previously tentative marriage possibility, and trying to provoke the therapist by, for example, coming late for appointments.

•The further importance of object constancy is illustrated by the fact that it is a prerequisite for that process so vital to the repair of an object loss—that is, mourning. If one cannot evoke mental images of the lost object, how can one resolve all the painful feelings caused by this loss to form new object relations? If one cannot mourn, he becomes fatally vulnerable to object loss.

Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism Otto F. Kernberg p. 35

Their depressive reactions take primitive forms of impotent rage and feelings of defeat by external forces, rather than mourning over good, lost objects and regret over their aggression toward themselves and others.

Reinforcing Kernberg's observation, Masterson in his book, Psychotherapy Of The Borderline Adult(p. 323)described the clinical experience of how a patient avoided mourning following the death of her daughter, using primite defense mechanisms.


According to Marsha Linehant [they]automatically inhibit the process by avoiding or distracting themselves from the relevant cues.

Interesting Boris.

At the risk of generalising, which is dangerous as we all know that there is a broad spectrum out there and each individual is different, I think PDs don't have the ability to really confront their loss and process it in what we would call a normal way. I think they find grief and personal responsibility so overwhelming that even touching it is terrifying so they cope by profound denial and repression.

Their behaviour seems terribly cruel to us, but it must be a hellish existence

Reforming

[Copperfox]

There are a number of threads on this board about pwBPD grieving in reverse.  Some also link this to common-ness of recycle attempts.  Here's what Schwing had to say about it a couple years back:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203398.msg12268586#msg12268586

And another thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=133919.0

Put simply, BPD is an attachment disorder.  But just the same as they have issues with attachment, they have issues with detachment as well.  Two sides of the same coin.  The key point is that although they may not appear to grieve, they often do, but in their own, disordered, way.

[Tim300]

I am sure this has been asked before but I am quite interested in people's views on this.

Having split in October and healthily gone non contact except for a text in December that I ignored (she is with the replacement she got with him a week after we split - clearly lined up and quite possibly an ex) - what I am interested in is whether they grieve an ex relationship later on or further down the line. We healthy types I guess grieve straight away and try and take time to process, but I wondered if with BPD they ignore it as they are with their new guy and I am blacker than black and the villain and evil. Then if things don't go well after the idealisation period however long that is, am I split white as they start to grieve later on the relationship they had? Is it like grieving in reverse or do they just forget it and I remain black?

Any thoughts or am I barking up the wrong tree?

This is an interesting question and I believe it's difficult to give a generalized answer to it, because feelings in various relationships will be unique and have different degrees of intensity.  With that being said, from what I've seen, the pwBPD will carry a failed serious relationship around with a lot of weight on his/her shoulders at some point, and this weight can be carried for a decade or more after the relationship has ended.  Aside from this personal experience, my theory is that the non who discovers BPD will eventually be able to move on accepting that his/her partner was mentally ill and knowing that in the future a healthy relationship will be possible with someone else.  Meanwhile, for the pwBPD, the losses and trauma will just keep mounting, causing the pwBPD to become even more distrustful, pessimistic, angry, etc. 

[BorisAcusio]

Interesting Boris.

At the risk of generalising, which is dangerous as we all know that there is a broad spectrum out there and each individual is different

I think we may fall into the culprit of political correctness when try to bend reality because it does not fit the criteria of how we were taught a human should act and react to certain situations. Kernberg himself were using the term to refer to a broad spectrum of issues, describing an intermediate level of personality organization between neurosis and psychosis, and considerable efforts are made behind the scenes to replace the traditinal categorical model of DSM to a dimensional model. We also shoud bear in mind that two leading figures of the field have a combined clinical experience of almost a century.

I think PDs don't have the ability to really confront their loss and process it in what we would call a normal way. I think they find grief and personal responsibility so overwhelming that even touching it is terrifying so they cope by profound denial and repression.

That's correct. They will find other ways around it, setting the well known defensive operations in motion.

[BorisAcusio]

I am sure this has been asked before but I am quite interested in people's views on this.

Having split in October and healthily gone non contact except for a text in December that I ignored (she is with the replacement she got with him a week after we split - clearly lined up and quite possibly an ex) - what I am interested in is whether they grieve an ex relationship later on or further down the line. We healthy types I guess grieve straight away and try and take time to process, but I wondered if with BPD they ignore it as they are with their new guy and I am blacker than black and the villain and evil. Then if things don't go well after the idealisation period however long that is, am I split white as they start to grieve later on the relationship they had? Is it like grieving in reverse or do they just forget it and I remain black?

Any thoughts or am I barking up the wrong tree?

With that being said, from what I've seen, the pwBPD will carry a failed serious relationship around with a lot of weight on his/her shoulders at some point, and this weight can be carried for a decade or more after the relationship has ended.  angry, etc. 

I'm glad you made that observation. It was often noted on this forum that they never really let go of their past attachments. It is in fact related to never working through the abandonment depression and the grieving/mourning process that accompanies it.

[willtimeheal]

Honestly... .What I have seen with my exBPD I don't think she grieves anything. Her existence is all about HER. She will crush, stomp, destroy anyone or thing that gets in her way of taking care of her wants or needs. I don't think she has the ability to feel anything towards others.  She exists only for herself. She 'll lie cheat and manipulate to get what she wants. And when she uses up one person she tosses them and goes to another.

I read on these boards that they have all these "problems."  Life is full of problems. And at some point you need to grow up and take responsibility for your life. You don't use people or hurt them for your own shellfish needs. You get help.  You do the work to get better just like us nons do.

So my feeling is ... .I don't care if they grieve or not. I hope karma kicks them in the a$$ 

[raisins3142]

My uBPDexgf kept everything from her past relationships tucked away.  She also wore jewelry and had tattoos related to them.  I didn't ask much about them because it was weird to me and I didn't want those mental images.  About halfway through our relationship she switched the pendant on her necklace to another that she had stored.  It was an expensive stone and likely a gift from a past partner.  Although I did not ask.  She would sit and stroke and touch it all the time. This was weird to me.  It's like she was reconnecting with someone when she did this.  It's like if I had a watch and it meant so much to me that I stroked it all the time.  Weird.  I just couldn't ask things like that because we weren't doing well. Interestingly, this switch of the pendant happened right around when she withdrew and I became devalued by her.

[myself]

Not sure they do really grieve, for reasons others here have already mentioned. Perhaps in very private moments, for very fleeting moments. My ex sure dragged her past around with her, though. Running from it while never letting it go. It makes me think of that Poe story 'The Tell-Tale Heart', like she was constantly hearing it beating beneath the floorboards, reminding her, haunting her, driving her more and more toward the edge. Except for her there is certainly more than one heart down there, mine too.

[SWLSR]

These are good answers.  I can add that my experience which was a 13 year marriage that produced three children, which I am now four years removed.  She is grieving something but who knows what she is very unhappy and I really could care less.  I went through some horrible grieving that shook me to the bone.  But then one day the grieving ended.  We do keep in touch because of the children but I am in a happy relationship and she is not.  It dawned on  me recently that she is grieving something I am not sure if part of her grieving is me or if she is grieving so much else I am forgotten about.  But anyway there is so much sadness and so little normalcy there it is odd to look at.  I think alot of there grieving is self pity and at some point they will try to use it to lure you back in, what is called charming or recycling.  I am not sure why they do this either its because they want to keep you in reserve or they cant stand to see you happy with out them but either way they are what they are.

[Reforming]

Interesting Boris.

At the risk of generalising, which is dangerous as we all know that there is a broad spectrum out there and each individual is different

I think we may fall into the culprit of political correctness when try to bend reality because it does not fit the criteria of how we were taught a human should act and react to certain situations. Kernberg himself were using the term to refer to a broad spectrum of issues, describing an intermediate level of personality organization between neurosis and psychosis, and considerable efforts are made behind the scenes to replace the traditinal categorical model of DSM to a dimensional model. We also shoud bear in mind that two leading figures of the field have a combined clinical experience of almost a century.

I think PDs don't have the ability to really confront their loss and process it in what we would call a normal way. I think they find grief and personal responsibility so overwhelming that even touching it is terrifying so they cope by profound denial and repression.

That's correct. They will find other ways around it, setting the well known defensive operations in motion.

I understand your point, but I don't think it's a question of bending reality.

I think it's about recognising that BPDs have been shaped by diverse range of environmental and genetic factors that make them just as unique as you or I.

I think that is evident in the diversity of their behaviour and personalities.

Yes there are there are classic behaviours that are strongly associated with disorder, but from I've read here and elsewhere over the last couple of years there is also huge variation. I think this not only reflects the complexity of the disorder itself, but the diversity of human beings.

There is a spectrum of traits, but BPDs are more than their disorder. Just as we so called NONs, exhibit a wide range of personality and behaviour too.

Reforming

[schwing]

Having split in October and healthily gone non contact except for a text in December that I ignored (she is with the replacement she got with him a week after we split - clearly lined up and quite possibly an ex) - what I am interested in is whether they grieve an ex relationship later on or further down the line.

This is a question I struggled with for a long time after my BPD relationship ended.  I remember thinking: I'm having such a dog darned time getting over, or grieving over this woman, I should I think it would only be fair that she has, or will have, the same kind of difficulty, the same grief, somewhere down the line.  After all, a relationship is a two-way street, no?  And fair is fair.

Also, it seemed hugely invalidating, to have all this emotional difficulty, when the other person does not seem to have such difficulty.  It's like we were the only one in this relationship and not the other person.  It may make us feel as if we were tremendously deceived.

But I think the truth is, this difference between us: the disordered and the non-disordered, speaks to how our psychological issues are so fundamentally different.  

We healthy types I guess grieve straight away and try and take time to process, but I wondered if with BPD they ignore it as they are with their new guy and I am blacker than black and the villain and evil. Then if things don't go well after the idealisation period however long that is, am I split white as they start to grieve later on the relationship they had? Is it like grieving in reverse or do they just forget it and I remain black?

In the emotional development of a "healthy type" of person, as a toddler, we learned that even though we were highly dependent upon the love and security provided by our parent/guardian, we were (1) distinct from that person and (2) we could eventually separate from that person without being completely annihilated.  And to some degree, we *internalized* the love and security our parent/guardian provided so that even when we are not in an intimate relationship, we could still feel a sense of love and security.

I would argue that people with BPD, have not developed in this manner.  Rather, at a crucial time in their emotional development, they sustained a psychological wound such that it arrested their emotional development.  Maybe the wound they sustained came from the very person who should have provided the sense of love and security.  And so as a form of self-defense, they needed to be able to easily change who it was they depended upon as a source of love and security.  Their "object" was no longer "constant."   And I wonder, if they ever learned to "internalize" this sense of love and security.  In a way, every attachment they have made since they were a toddler, has been a "substitute" for this necessarily primary attachment (our parent/guardian).  Where as for a "healthy type", our attachment to all the different important people in our lives are distinct from each other, emotionally and intellectually.  But for a disordered person, intellectually they may understand each person to be separate, but emotionally, they have only ever attached to one person at a time -- and that primary attachment/object is as crucial a connection as a toddler has to his/her parent/guardian.  But because they lack "object constancy" when one attachment is formed, all previous attachment evaporate.

And this is evidence by their behavior, when they no longer need you, you seem not to exist to them (emotionally at least).

And back to the point about grief... .

I don't think they can grieve because the minute they shift their attachment, all their emotional "marbles" go to the new basket.  With nothing in the old basket, there is no "loss."  But they can probably sense, that this isn't right.  This isn't how most people experience the end of their relationships.  That something is amiss.

Also, I think that psychologically, they *want* to develop past that point of developmental arrest.  But to do that they must confront their primary abandonment trauma, which is for them a huge pit of pain, something from which they've spent all their lives running away. They must *confront* the trauma, and *grieve* over that loss.  Until they get past that grief, everything else is trivial in comparison.

Any thoughts or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Woof?

[milo1967]

Coincidentally, the other day I asked my XW the same. Foolishly I broke NC (a whole other story) and broke down crying and yelling her. I told her is been grieving her--alone--for three years while she has been with my replacement grieving me not at all. She started crying and denied it, saying that she lives with pain every day. I retorted, "How can you grieve while with someone else?" She said, "I have, you just don't understand... ."

It went on and on. Bottom line is I don't know if she grieves or has grieved. I think she was telling the truth--that she has been in pain missing me--but I think she is wired very differently from normal people and experiences pain very differently. Ultimately and most importantly to me, she feels pain for herself, not for the pain she caused me and our children. Still and always I do not believe she has the capacity for normal human empathy.

[raisins3142]

Prior to my only recycle, during the 2 week break up period, I wrote my uBPDexgf an email outlining my issues and concerns.

One was that she has been in many relationships in rapid fire succession.

She got offended, of course, but then said: "when I am done with someone, I move on relatively quickly".

After the final break up, while I was still looking at her pinterest memes about me, she posted something that said "once I get my self esteem back, you will be dead to me".  I interpret that as "once I get into another relationship, you will be dead to me."

[Copperfox]

Also, I think that psychologically, they *want* to develop past that point of developmental arrest.  But to do that they must confront their primary abandonment trauma, which is for them a huge pit of pain, something from which they've spent all their lives running away. They must *confront* the trauma, and *grieve* over that loss.  Until they get past that grief, everything else is trivial in comparison.

Well said

[antelope]

Also, I think that psychologically, they *want* to develop past that point of developmental arrest.  But to do that they must confront their primary abandonment trauma, which is for them a huge pit of pain, something from which they've spent all their lives running away. They must *confront* the trauma, and *grieve* over that loss.  Until they get past that grief, everything else is trivial in comparison.

^^this is a crucial statement, especially regarding those questions and concerns about the benefits of therapy for a BPD... .

therapy, for the most part, is about finding more effective coping mechanisms while VERY VERY slowly touching on/resolving the fundamental issue which is the core trauma/abandonment... .most BPDs, unfortunately, do not find the resolution

[drummerboy]

I don't know if they grieve or not but I do know that after my ex dumped me she went into a deep depression for 6 months. Now she has a history of good 6 months--->bad 6 months over and over which is why it has been suggested she has bipolar but our mutual friend told me that my ex found it agonising to get over the breakup of our relationship so I'm guessing that she grieved deeply. Putting my amateur psychologist's hat on for a minute, I think what she might have grieved is the realisation that she is incapable of having an adult relationship and that she is doomed to relationships with codependent type people. She often remarked how much she admired things about me such as how decisive I was, how I could just get on with life and how I could just be in the moment. In short, she may realise that no mentally healthy person would want her. She headed for the exit doors when I started suggesting that it might be time for her to start learning to stand on her own two feet instead of the cast of enablers that she surrounds herself with.

[hurting300]

From what I can tell , they actually don't really move on from anyone. My ex never truly let Go of anyone.

[drummerboy]

I think you are onto something hurting. Come to think of it, my ex still talked about a guy that "smashed her heart" when she was 17, 15 years ago! she is stlll in touch with him even though he lives in another country and is married.

From what I can tell , they actually don't really move on from anyone. My ex never truly let Go of anyone.

[SlyQQ]

no! unless they die an thats fairly warped

[hurting300]

My ex acted like she never kept up with exes, but... .How did she know so much about their current life? Why did she claim they beat and raped her yet she saved all their text messages from YEARS ago. . No, they never let Go.

[ADecadeLost]

Mine grieves, though it is more the loss of attachment than the relationship itself.  She recognizes now that filing the divorce papers and running away allowed me to un-enmesh from her, and that as a result she has lost (her control over) me.  She was not seeking a replacement when she filed for divorce (nor is she now), just acting out on frustrations stemming from her life situation (and the stress of DBT). 

Her pain is apparent anytime she skypes with the dog (smile giving way to tears quickly).  And while part of me does feel sorry for her and believes she wants to change (wouldn't be in DBT otherwise), she needs to change for herself at this point. 

[Deeno02]

No idea if she even cares. I was literally on the couch with her, following week another dude. Dumped via text. Don't even think I'm an after thought.

[BorisAcusio]

I don't know if they grieve or not but I do know that after my ex dumped me she went into a deep depression for 6 months.

Borderline and narcissistic personalities may regress into narcissistic withdrawal - the Hermit - as a defensive solution a precarious refuge that comes into being as a defense against a disappointing or untrustworthy object. This is found in studies of narcissistic personalities or borderline pathologies by authors such as Heinz Kohut or Otto Kernberg.

My ex had a period like this in her mid twenties, she was barely getting up from her bed for months.

[going places]

In my case?

Showing grief would indicate that "real feelings" occurred at some point, and so I have to say NO he will never feel grief.

Inconveinenced?

Absolutely.

It will be a PITA for him when he has to cook, clean, shop, pay bills, etc... .wait... .nawwwww he'll just find some trash queen to hook up with and let THEM do all the work for him... .

So no, he will not show any grief.

He is incapable of showing grief, remorse, regret, etc.

He is always right, he is the smartest person on the planet... .just ask him.

He knows best; everyone else is too stupid.

Oh, an nothing is ever his fault. There is ALWAYS someone else to blame, if not totally, definitely in part.

((I wouldn't have done ______ if you had done_______))

And honestly?

I don't care.

I truly, simply don't care.