Intelligent & Insightful

[Depression = 72% of members]

How can someone so intelligent and so insightful, not see their own issues when it comes to possibly having BPD? HOW?

I guess they are just too scared to do it... .

[GrowThroughIt]

How can someone so intelligent and so insightful, not see their own issues when it comes to possibly having BPD? HOW?

I guess they are just too scared to do it... .

[Ripped Heart]

I dont think this necessarily relates to just pwBPD and not just about intelligence either though I do see your point. As people, we tend to observe from an external point of view. Its far easier for us to recognise traits and such in others but not within ourselves.

I have a couple of theories around this. To a pwBPD or to anyone, it is our norm. Its what we were raised to believe and understand from people we trusted and our environment. So how could we possibly see this as being wrong?

Surely, if this is normal to everyone else within our intimate circle, then it has to be right? 

I think the difference between us and pwBPD is that a pwBPD lacks the capacity for the inward reflection. Or at least long term without it becoming too painful for them to manage. Usually when that happens, it triggers their own maladaptive coping mechanisms and the negative feelings tend to be projected or distorted.

My exN/BPDw was extremely intelligent, she knew all there was to know about NPD and BPD but could never apply that to being about her. She started to come close a few times but the NPD would take over and it couldn't possibly be her because she was too perfect to be the cause of anything bad. It always had to be someone else.

As I say, many of us are still learning our roles within a BPD r/s too. I'm pretty sure many people here are very intelligent and insightful and yet we find ourselves in BPD relationships and asking ourselves why. We are able to reflect and try to understand as well as make the changes necessary within ourselves but initially some people have a hard time identifying our own issues that led us into that relationship in the first place.

[Reforming]

I dont think this necessarily relates to just pwBPD and not just about intelligence either though I do see your point. As people, we tend to observe from an external point of view. Its far easier for us to recognise traits and such in others but not within ourselves.

I have a couple of theories around this. To a pwBPD or to anyone, it is our norm. Its what we were raised to believe and understand from people we trusted and our environment. So how could we possibly see this as being wrong?

Surely, if this is normal to everyone else within our intimate circle, then it has to be right?  

I think the difference between us and pwBPD is that a pwBPD lacks the capacity for the inward reflection. Or at least long term without it becoming too painful for them to manage. Usually when that happens, it triggers their own maladaptive coping mechanisms and the negative feelings tend to be projected or distorted.

My exN/BPDw was extremely intelligent, she knew all there was to know about NPD and BPD but could never apply that to being about her. She started to come close a few times but the NPD would take over and it couldn't possibly be her because she was too perfect to be the cause of anything bad. It always had to be someone else.

As I say, many of us are still learning our roles within a BPD r/s too. I'm pretty sure many people here are very intelligent and insightful and yet we find ourselves in BPD relationships and asking ourselves why. We are able to reflect and try to understand as well as make the changes necessary within ourselves but initially some people have a hard time identifying our own issues that led us into that relationship in the first place.

Well said Ripped Heart.

I agree that we can all struggle to be self aware for the reasons that you describe. I also think that turning our own gazes inward and owning our choices and behaviour is challenging to say the least.

My ex is very bright, and at times she acknowledged that she had serious problems, but she seemed unable to sustain this long enough to face up to them

I asked my Schema T about this and she said

"Shame has a lot to answer for, in that coming to therapy, working at it and being really willing look at ourselves and own our actions is quite courageous. It requires humility."

"But when someone is filled with shame it's such an unbearable feeling that they're compelled to avert their gaze from themselves, hide and cast their shame onto others. For those filled by shame, the thought that there is something wrong with them is overwhelming, it's almost impossible for them to separate their mistakes from themselves. They equate taking responsibility with if it's my fault, then it proves that I'm worthless and defective."

"People with very strong shame don't go the route of guilt, which is the healthy feeling.  Guilt is the recognition that I've hurt someone, and it is incongruent with who I am. Therefore there's no threat to my identity because I know who I am and it's out of line with my values. Guilt is an empathy driven response that drives people to want to fix things and make changes because it doesn't threaten their sense of who they are. Borderlines are riddled with shame and huge self punitiveness and their sense of self is so fragile or underdeveloped that it's extremely hard for them to do this"

Reforming

[going places]

How can someone so intelligent and so insightful, not see their own issues when it comes to possibly having BPD? HOW?

I guess they are just too scared to do it... .

Ego

Pride

Stubborn pig-headedness

Pride

Arrogance

Generational Curse

Fear

[antelope]

Fear

bingo

[jhkbuzz]

My ex is very bright, and at times she acknowledged that she had serious problems, but she seemed unable to sustain this long enough to face up to them

YES!  My exBPDgf said repeatedly that relationships were her serious weakness; that she considered remaining single for this very reason; that she doesn't think she's ever loved anyone - but somehow, when push came to shove, the problems in our r/s were mostly my fault.  WHAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT?  

Moments of clarity but no real depth of understanding.

I asked my Schema T about this and she said

"Shame has a lot to answer for, in that coming to therapy, working at it and being really willing look at ourselves and own our actions is quite courageous. It requires humility."

"But when someone is filled with shame it's such an unbearable feeling that they're compelled to avert their gaze from themselves, hide and cast their shame onto others. For those filled by shame, the thought that there is something wrong with them is overwhelming, it's almost impossible for them to separate their mistakes from themselves. They equate taking responsibility with if it's my fault, then it proves that I'm worthless and defective."

"People with very strong shame don't go the route of guilt, which is the healthy feeling.  Guilt is the recognition that I've hurt someone, and it is incongruent with who I am. Therefore there's no threat to my identity because I know who I am and it's out of line with my values. Guilt is an empathy driven response that drives people to want to fix things and make changes because it doesn't threaten their sense of who they are. Borderlines are riddled with shame and huge self punitiveness and their sense of self is so fragile or underdeveloped that it's extremely hard for them to do this"

Reforming

Wow, what an insight!  It would be hard to take the blame-casting and venom from someone personally if you could really keep the insights from your T in mind.  

It also helps in my journey towards detached compassion.

[christin5433]

Good read thanks . I believe they are smart and function well w others except intimately and from my experience it was the demise of my r/s. I became depleted and didn't have anything to give. I became bitter and resentful at the fact that my ex w BPD had no interest in getting well for us and I had nothing and I mean nothing but a shell of a person to offer her.

So the end came ... I had a dream of her this morning and it made me disturbed I seen her driving out our long driveway gate was open and I was standing there w my daughter and she went into reverse and drove my daughter and I down.

The meaning is apparent to me she is given the opening to leave but she needed to cause great suffering to me because of her shame.

I live w guilt and much anger because of this . I am going in and out of my greiving and the damage I lived w and the way she ended just is not right in my head . I need to find the grace in me to forgive and accept that it's impossible to even understand the reasoning of a person who has this disorder. It's just not me. I hurt someone intentionally I apologize.

I don't get the whole I hurt someone intentionally and have great shame and just say screw it and find another person to attach to and tell lies to.

It seems to me almost criminal ?

My insight is I don't get it I can read all this I feel no empathy for this.

I believe we all have the gift of right and wrong .

[jhkbuzz]

Good read thanks . I believe they are smart and function well w others except intimately and from my experience it was the demise of my r/s. I became depleted and didn't have anything to give. I became bitter and resentful at the fact that my ex w BPD had no interest in getting well for us and I had nothing and I mean nothing but a shell of a person to offer her.

So the end came ... I had a dream of her this morning and it made me disturbed I seen her driving out our long driveway gate was open and I was standing there w my daughter and she went into reverse and drove my daughter and I down.

The meaning is apparent to me she is given the opening to leave but she needed to cause great suffering to me because of her shame.

I live w guilt and much anger because of this . I am going in and out of my greiving and the damage I lived w and the way she ended just is not right in my head . I need to find the grace in me to forgive and accept that it's impossible to even understand the reasoning of a person who has this disorder. It's just not me. I hurt someone intentionally I apologize.

I don't get the whole I hurt someone intentionally and have great shame and just say screw it and find another person to attach to and tell lies to.

It seems to me almost criminal ?

My insight is I don't get it I can read all this I feel no empathy for this.

I believe we all have the gift of right and wrong .

I don't know if what I'm about to say is right, but this is how I think about it.

Think of how you felt the first week your ex was gone... .how emotionally dysregulated you were, how much pain your were in, how generally ___ed up you were, and how you would have done anything to make all of that pain go away.

I think that's the state in which they pretty much live their lives. And in that scenario, empathy for other people - and moral values (if any are present to begin with) go right out the window.

[Reforming]

JHK I think you're right. Behind their mask I think their existence is be pretty hellish

Christian

I know what you mean. It's so hard for those on the outside of this disorder to accept it's existence and even when you do that doesn't mean that you have to accept their behaviour.

I would never for a moment deny the cruelty, and destructiveness of my exes behaviour. She did some terrible damage to me and others and she is responsible for her choices, her behaviour,

But she also disordered and badly damaged. She didn't choose to be this way, but sadly she's hasn't found the courage to heal herself. Many don't and not just BPDs...

I feel empathy for her because I can and because it helps me forgive myself. It doesn't mean I want to be with her again or condone the things that she's done. It a tough line to walk and I slip on and off it all the time.

Reforming

[christin5433]

JHK I think you're right. Behind their mask I think their existence is be pretty hellish

Christian

I know what you mean. It's so hard for those on the outside of this disorder to accept it's existence and even when you do that doesn't mean that you have to accept their behaviour.

I would never for a moment deny the cruelty, and destructiveness of my exes behaviour. She did some terrible damage to me and others and she is responsible for her choices, her behaviour,

But she also disordered and badly damaged. She didn't choose to be this way, but sadly she's hasn't found the courage to heal herself. Many don't and not just BPDs...

I feel empathy for her because I can and because it helps me forgive myself. It doesn't mean I want to be with her again or condone the things that she's done. It a tough line to walk and I slip on and off it all the time.

Reforming

Yes it's a on and off thing ... .Yesterday I felt forgiveness and empathy today I woke up disturbed and scared of this dark feeling I'm carrying . I'm sure it's because it's V day. It is a day of love . My love was not real , it has me feeling like I love a mannequin? Oh I just gotta feel this. There's nothing I can do but feel sad mad anxious and lonely. I have been hurt and it's still there. I let go w love and It never works. I do that to heal myself and it works some days? Today will be hard for many of us. 

[Reforming]

JHK I think you're right. Behind their mask I think their existence is be pretty hellish

Christian

I know what you mean. It's so hard for those on the outside of this disorder to accept it's existence and even when you do that doesn't mean that you have to accept their behaviour.

I would never for a moment deny the cruelty, and destructiveness of my exes behaviour. She did some terrible damage to me and others and she is responsible for her choices, her behaviour,

But she also disordered and badly damaged. She didn't choose to be this way, but sadly she's hasn't found the courage to heal herself. Many don't and not just BPDs...

I feel empathy for her because I can and because it helps me forgive myself. It doesn't mean I want to be with her again or condone the things that she's done. It a tough line to walk and I slip on and off it all the time.

Reforming

Yes it's a on and off thing ... .Yesterday I felt forgiveness and empathy today I woke up disturbed and scared of this dark feeling I'm carrying . I'm sure it's because it's V day. It is a day of love . My love was not real , it has me feeling like I love a mannequin? Oh I just gotta feel this. There's nothing I can do but feel sad mad anxious and lonely. I have been hurt and it's still there. I let go w love and It never works. I do that to heal myself and it works some days? Today will be hard for many of us.  

I hear you.

Always thought V day was a big marketing ploy, but rather ironically today is also my exes birthday. She hated it - I wouldn't want it as my birthday either. Anyway I woke up in a rather dark mood as well.

I pretty much stayed no contact with my ex from when we separated over two years ago and I saw her for the first time in early december in rather extreme circumstances.

No more contact after that until a couple of days ago when I had three missed calls from her at 2am. My phone was switched off so I couldn't have answered them. She left no message, but as soon as I saw the missed calls I decided that I was not going to ring her back.

I know that she dysregulates around her birthday and if she was ringing me a 2am she was probably drinking. If she was in real trouble she would have a message. Either way i wasn't reconnecting, though inevitably she has popped back into my mind, albeit it a much more detached and controllable way.

I know what you mean about feeling anxious and lonely, especially on a day like this. I've been trying really hard to listen to my feelings and my needs and be kind to myself.

Healing and detaching is a stop start process for most of us and to do it properly takes more time than we expect. Concentrate on being compassion to you and allow the time and space to grieve. It may not be much fun, but it's the best way forward

Reforming

[Infared]

How can an alcoholic not admit that they have a drinking problem and make an effort to change?  Usually it's a simple one-word answer: DENIAL!

Trust me... .I know!  

It's just part of the human journey... .I guess... .some people die because they cannot or will not change... .I have watched them... .I have buried them. It's no joke.

[christin5433]

Reforming,

I have been staying in today been writing or typing on my laptop of my life experiences kinda been a outlet. What not a better time while emotions are flowing like a waterfall ... .I'm gonna probably just lay low today and ride it out. I'm sorry ur in a dark place too and theres a b day attached to this day. I hate when I feel this because I'm not as teachable I'm more in survival. Compassion is a good way to try to w myself and I think in order to do that today I think I need to stay away from any red hearts I may just puke on some poor soul who smiles at me.

So insight is to just keep myself away from any dance any dinner place or any thing to do w Vday.

[HappyNihilist]

I dont think this necessarily relates to just pwBPD and not just about intelligence either though I do see your point. As people, we tend to observe from an external point of view. Its far easier for us to recognise traits and such in others but not within ourselves.

As I say, many of us are still learning our roles within a BPD r/s too. I'm pretty sure many people here are very intelligent and insightful and yet we find ourselves in BPD relationships and asking ourselves why. We are able to reflect and try to understand as well as make the changes necessary within ourselves but initially some people have a hard time identifying our own issues that led us into that relationship in the first place.

I agree that we can all struggle to be self aware for the reasons that you describe. I also think that turning our own gazes inward and owning our choices and behaviour is challenging to say the least.

Absolutely!

The truth is, most people (BPD or not, intelligent or not) don't delve deep into the well of themselves. When we look at how difficult and painful it is to really look at ourselves, take ownership of our lives, and change our own unhealthy/unwanted behavior -- then it's easy to see why our BPDexes have a hard time doing the same.

Especially when you consider that the nature of the disorder adds challenges to the already-challenging task of self-improvement.

I don't know if what I'm about to say is right, but this is how I think about it.

Think of how you felt the first week your ex was gone... .how emotionally dysregulated you were, how much pain your were in, how generally ___ed up you were, and how you would have done anything to make all of that pain go away.

I think that's the state in which they pretty much live their lives. And in that scenario, empathy for other people - and moral values (if any are present to begin with) go right out the window.

This is how I think about it, too, jhkbuzz.

That state we were in - that emotional dysregulation - is not at all common for us. But someone with BPD is basically always in danger of going into that state.

This is why borderlines tend to live most of their lives (outside relationships) in the Detached Protector mode, to avoid that constant dysregulation. Can you imagine living like that all of your life? You'd go crazy. It would be absolute hell. No wonder they try to avoid it by whatever means necessary. (Who wouldn't?)

So the borderline sort of bounces between emotional turmoil in serious relationships or times of stress... .and a detached, denial-laden state the majority of the rest of the time. Neither of these allow much in the way of self-reflection.

[drummerboy]

I have tortured myself with this question. My ex was very intelligent, 2 degrees, one of which was in psychology, 10 years of T during which I'm almost certain that PD would have been at least suggested, has read every self help book on the planet, tries her hardest to adopt mindfulness/meditation practices into her life yet is in complete denial about her condition. She dedicates her life to being the victim and she makes sure she keeps her enablers close. IMO, the enablers, her mom in particular, are a huge part of the problem. Why change when there is always mommy to run to and validate her victim mentality? The degree to which she vilified me after she ended the relationship shows how deep their denial is. As I said in another thread, I think the problem may be that to acknowledge that your personality is defective is to acknowledge that your very essence is defective and that would be a huge thing. I know that during my Therapy my T said "you do know that you coming here every week and being so honest takes an enormous amount of courage don't you?" I guess they just don't have that courage yet and maybe they never will. I vacillate between having a lot of empathy for my ex and still feeling anger for what she did after the breakup, particularly the smear campaign.

[dan1966]

I asked my Schema T about this and she said

"Shame has a lot to answer for, in that coming to therapy, working at it and being really willing look at ourselves and own our actions is quite courageous. It requires humility."

"But when someone is filled with shame it's such an unbearable feeling that they're compelled to avert their gaze from themselves, hide and cast their shame onto others. For those filled by shame, the thought that there is something wrong with them is overwhelming, it's almost impossible for them to separate their mistakes from themselves. They equate taking responsibility with if it's my fault, then it proves that I'm worthless and defective."

"People with very strong shame don't go the route of guilt, which is the healthy feeling.  Guilt is the recognition that I've hurt someone, and it is incongruent with who I am. Therefore there's no threat to my identity because I know who I am and it's out of line with my values. Guilt is an empathy driven response that drives people to want to fix things and make changes because it doesn't threaten their sense of who they are. Borderlines are riddled with shame and huge self punitiveness and their sense of self is so fragile or underdeveloped that it's extremely hard for them to do this"

Reforming

[/quote]
Thanks for this Reforming!

This is very helpful in really being emphathetic with my exUBPDgf.

Dan

[BorisAcusio]

I dont think this necessarily relates to just pwBPD and not just about intelligence either though I do see your point. As people, we tend to observe from an external point of view. Its far easier for us to recognise traits and such in others but not within ourselves.

I have a couple of theories around this. To a pwBPD or to anyone, it is our norm. Its what we were raised to believe and understand from people we trusted and our environment. So how could we possibly see this as being wrong?

Surely, if this is normal to everyone else within our intimate circle, then it has to be right?  

I think the difference between us and pwBPD is that a pwBPD lacks the capacity for the inward reflection. Or at least long term without it becoming too painful for them to manage. Usually when that happens, it triggers their own maladaptive coping mechanisms and the negative feelings tend to be projected or distorted.

My exN/BPDw was extremely intelligent, she knew all there was to know about NPD and BPD but could never apply that to being about her. She started to come close a few times but the NPD would take over and it couldn't possibly be her because she was too perfect to be the cause of anything bad. It always had to be someone else.

As I say, many of us are still learning our roles within a BPD r/s too. I'm pretty sure many people here are very intelligent and insightful and yet we find ourselves in BPD relationships and asking ourselves why. We are able to reflect and try to understand as well as make the changes necessary within ourselves but initially some people have a hard time identifying our own issues that led us into that relationship in the first place.

Well said Ripped Heart.

I agree that we can all struggle to be self aware for the reasons that you describe. I also think that turning our own gazes inward and owning our choices and behaviour is challenging to say the least.

My ex is very bright, and at times she acknowledged that she had serious problems, but she seemed unable to sustain this long enough to face up to them

I asked my Schema T about this and she said

"Shame has a lot to answer for, in that coming to therapy, working at it and being really willing look at ourselves and own our actions is quite courageous. It requires humility."

"But when someone is filled with shame it's such an unbearable feeling that they're compelled to avert their gaze from themselves, hide and cast their shame onto others. For those filled by shame, the thought that there is something wrong with them is overwhelming, it's almost impossible for them to separate their mistakes from themselves. They equate taking responsibility with if it's my fault, then it proves that I'm worthless and defective."

"People with very strong shame don't go the route of guilt, which is the healthy feeling.  Guilt is the recognition that I've hurt someone, and it is incongruent with who I am. Therefore there's no threat to my identity because I know who I am and it's out of line with my values. Guilt is an empathy driven response that drives people to want to fix things and make changes because it doesn't threaten their sense of who they are. Borderlines are riddled with shame and huge self punitiveness and their sense of self is so fragile or underdeveloped that it's extremely hard for them to do this"

Reforming

Thanks for sharing this, Reforming. It's pretty much in line with clinical literature.

[myself]

One time I had raised my voice with her, defending myself against her accusations, and felt bad about handling it that way so apologized. When I told her I felt ashamed of my actions, it was like a huge relief for her that I was the one expressing that and not her. I never heard her use that term about herself, even though she also lived through the results of it all.

[christin5433]

One time I had raised my voice with her, defending myself against her accusations, and felt bad about handling it that way so apologized. When I told her I felt ashamed of my actions, it was like a huge relief for her that I was the one expressing that and not her. I never heard her use that term about herself, even though she also lived through the results of it all.

Same thing happened for me I said I wasn't gonna budge this time and it was over ! The reasoning was just non existent. I was painted black with a fury of pure hate. She hasn't cared for me ever since.

[allweareisallweare]

Freudian defence-mechanism denial - defending, seemingly, from expected repercussions/consequences of their own abhorrent dummy-spitting/other assorted BPD shenanigans. No normal human being would risk it all by systematically denying that their behavior is corrosive. Our own sanity lives and dies by dint of their own lack of insight/self-image deficiency.

There is no doubt under the hot lights and pressures of a relationship we all do and say the wrong thing - we are not saints - but we, if we're lucky, have the capacity to realise this, rectify, repair. A borderline must feel that they are living in a room with the door locked, with no windows. They are trapped and cut off from reality by the boundaries which they themselves set.

If they are so insightful then they would understand. Borderline Personality splits a potential kaleidoscope of thinking into two colours - BLACK and WHITE. Normally that translates to the old horrific chestnut "I am right and you are wrong."    I follow this up by adding that my exBPDgf was never wrong, in her own eyes. Again, it goes back to the key point - denial, abnormal denial, wholesale denial, ugly denial, denial of self-love, denial of loving.

I conclude - BPD is not a slow emotional death, a descent into a weakening of the mental faculties. BPD is having been been born, seemingly, bereft of them - compassion, empathy; the all-dimensional and healthy reciprocated love which we all warrant; the give-take capabilities of  successful lover and friend.  And such a state of life must be very difficult and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. 

[redvelvetc]

I dont think this necessarily relates to just pwBPD and not just about intelligence either though I do see your point. As people, we tend to observe from an external point of view. Its far easier for us to recognise traits and such in others but not within ourselves.

I have a couple of theories around this. To a pwBPD or to anyone, it is our norm. Its what we were raised to believe and understand from people we trusted and our environment. So how could we possibly see this as being wrong?

Surely, if this is normal to everyone else within our intimate circle, then it has to be right? 

I think the difference between us and pwBPD is that a pwBPD lacks the capacity for the inward reflection. Or at least long term without it becoming too painful for them to manage. Usually when that happens, it triggers their own maladaptive coping mechanisms and the negative feelings tend to be projected or distorted.

My exN/BPDw was extremely intelligent, she knew all there was to know about NPD and BPD but could never apply that to being about her. She started to come close a few times but the NPD would take over and it couldn't possibly be her because she was too perfect to be the cause of anything bad. It always had to be someone else.

As I say, many of us are still learning our roles within a BPD r/s too. I'm pretty sure many people here are very intelligent and insightful and yet we find ourselves in BPD relationships and asking ourselves why. We are able to reflect and try to understand as well as make the changes necessary within ourselves but initially some people have a hard time identifying our own issues that led us into that relationship in the first place.

Just did a post that talked a little about this and reading what you wrote really struck a chord. I'm still in the early stages of seeing a therapist and I won't lie, the whole relationship has left my faith and confidence in my own powers of observation/judgement on such thin ice that sometimes I strongly wonder if I might be BPD myself and am only projecting those traits onto my ex-partner, just like yours did. . .