It's a mess. It's a royal mess

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

OK, so the decision is divorce. She said she filed monday, two weeks ago. She locked me out of the house. I got a court order (Domestic violence claim - wrongful eviction) to obtain entry to my house. She counterfiled, with a similar thing.

I'm not sure if she filed or not, but I am fully, unequivocally, endlessly done with this marriage, so if she hasn't filed - I will.

Now she won't let me see the children. She moved out into the neighbour's house. and no-one will let me see the children.

It's a dog show. I live in my house, alone with the children living 2 doors down and not seeing me at all.

I just started a new job, and I'm trying to stay focussed. Struggling with it.

I'm reading "Splitting" and its heartbreaking.

I wish I had prepared gathered resources for this divorce. I didn't - I was too busy on the staying board trying to work on the marriage, with someone who definitely wasn't.

Just trying hard not to be a victim, and have faith that it will get better. Worse first, but better

[Moselle]

OK, so the decision is divorce. She said she filed monday, two weeks ago. She locked me out of the house. I got a court order (Domestic violence claim - wrongful eviction) to obtain entry to my house. She counterfiled, with a similar thing.

I'm not sure if she filed or not, but I am fully, unequivocally, endlessly done with this marriage, so if she hasn't filed - I will.

Now she won't let me see the children. She moved out into the neighbour's house. and no-one will let me see the children.

It's a dog show. I live in my house, alone with the children living 2 doors down and not seeing me at all.

I just started a new job, and I'm trying to stay focussed. Struggling with it.

I'm reading "Splitting" and its heartbreaking.

I wish I had prepared gathered resources for this divorce. I didn't - I was too busy on the staying board trying to work on the marriage, with someone who definitely wasn't.

Just trying hard not to be a victim, and have faith that it will get better. Worse first, but better

[catnap]

Splitting is not a fun read, but very helpful.  Have you found an attorney yet?  If not, line up some consultations. 

As a general rule courthouse clerks are usually very helpful and can assist you to see if your wife as actually filed.  If not, you need to file and get a temporary custody order in place asap.  Be careful though, as temp orders have a way of morphing into permanent orders, so you need to push for as much as you can get. 

The members here are great and will assist you in getting up to speed.  Besides custody, you need to secure what finances you can so your soon to be ex doesn't raid accounts or max out credit cards. 

[ForeverDad]

Until there is a temporary order in place, you can pick the kids up from the school. If it's a public school, the laws are very clear -- unless there is a court document denying you, they cannot stop you. More importantly, they cannot prevent your wife from denying you access to your kids.

Though I would add my comment that by forcing the issue you could prompt your stbEx to try to get an emergency order (read: allegations) to block you.

I wasn't able to contact him at school or daycare either since he was only 3 years old at the time and she kept him with her all the time.

You can also call law enforcement and have them do domestic assistance. They will make sure nothing happens while you visit the kids. Police can't enforce civil orders even if there was one in place, so their role is simply to make sure that people behave and cooperate.

My police weren't much help except to ensure ex wasn't aggressive against me.  Yes, when we had disputes they encouraged us to work it out (read: "come on, give in and allow an exchange" and failing that then "fix it in court".  That was the extent of their help.  I had been blocked by my then-separated spouse for months.  I called them and asked if they would accompany me to avoid an incident and they declined, telling me to call back when I had a court order (which took months).  Yet when I asked what they would do if I went to see my son and she called 911, they said they'd immediately respond.  Well, I decided I couldn't risk arrest just for trying to see my son, so I waited for court and didn't see my son for 3 months.  Clearly they were not going to force the parent "in possession of the child" to be reasonable.

You may want to ask your local police how they handle high conflict exchanges and attempts for exchanges or visits.

Police are vital but of limited help, their primary task as emergency responders is to resolve the immediate incident.  Almost everything afterward is handed off to court or other agencies.  Their willingness to get involved and how far that goes is dependent on their local laws, policies, procedures and your situation.  Yes, like me, you have the house (for now) but not the kids (for now).  What is happening is that your spouse is effectively saying, "I'm in Control.  I have the kids as Weapons or Leverage and I won't let you do anything about it."  She feels entitled and feel she is The Authority.  Right now, with her in possession of the children and without court orders stating otherwise, you relative positions are technically equal but undefined and unspecified.  A free-for-all in which the conflict can erupt over almost anything.

First, beware of false allegations of DV or child abuse.  Either one can throw your current order up in the air.  Sorry, but that is a risk considering the USA has a slanted "Violence Against Women Act" and not a more neutral "Violence against Spouses Act".

Second, what can break the stalemate in which you have the house but she has the kids?  One place... .domestic or family court.  Court is The Real Authority.  You can seek resolution in court.  She could too.  Yes, judges are reluctant to make informed and insightful Solomon-like rulings, but at least with Court you are less unlikely to be treated as unfairly.  Generally there are only two options, Legal Separation (impractical in our high conflict cases) or Divorce.

My now-ex and I started out our separation with temporary protection/restraining orders.  After a few months they were eventually were dismissed and we were told to find a more permanent resolution.  That was either Legal Separation or Divorce.  Religiously divorce was not my first choice but by then I realized the reality that I was facing false allegations and I had to protect myself and what parenting I could.  So I filed for divorce.  (For a year or two before our separation she would rant and rage that she was going to divorce me or I divorce her, so the concept of  divorce was no stranger to either of us.)

Getting the data for filing, getting a divorce attorney all took time.  So did waiting for the scheduled initial hearing for setting temp orders.  In all, I didn't see my preschooler for over 3 months, she wouldn't even let me even talk to our preschooler.  (And no, court didn't scold her nor give me make up time in the temp order.)

Fortunately, though, I had documented her behaviors and she apparently didn't feel able to claim DV against me.  That still left her free to allege child abuse, child neglect and child endangerment.  If your documentation of her behaviors is sparse, see what you can do to document her poor behaviors well going forward.  Review past incidents for ways to document them sufficiently well so they aren't seen as mere "he-said, she-said" and ignored.

Try to get the best temporary order you can from the very start.  Temp orders have a tendency to morph later into final orders, judges may not be interested in changing what in their view seems to be working.

[livednlearned]

moselle, you may want to talk to a lawyer about an "ex parte" emergency order about seeing the kids. These are emergency orders that get heard very quickly by a judge, separate from any other issues going on. Keep any documentation you have about your ex denying access to the kids. You may want to talk to the school's family specialist -- they are usually social workers who work with the families, as opposed to guidance counselors who work directly with the kids. Let them know what's going on, and that you want to come and have lunch with the kids, or whatnot.

But before you do that, talk to an attorney to make sure that's advised.

This kind of confusion and chaos is not unheard of in divorce cases. For us, it's urgent. We want to see our kids. But for the courts, which move at a glacial pace, this is sadly par for the course. A lawyer will be able to tell you who your judge will be, and will know if there are other cases going on that have things hot about certain topics. For example, if a dad has just kidnapped the kids and there is an amber alert, you don't want to pick the kids up from school even though you can, and there is no order preventing this.

The key is to start thinking strategically so you have a plan. When/if this ends up in court, you want to be able to tell a compelling story about what you did to try and see your kids, and what your wife did to prevent that.

[ogopogodude]

Moselle ... if there is any domestic violence or "on-the-verge" of DV, ... then go purchase video equipment.  Place a video camera on your porch.  Get a car camera. Get a Go-Pro.

Read my other posts on video taping.

It has worked WONDERS for diffusing sh**te even BEFORE it begins.

It totally bewilders me why others that are victims of a loved one with BPD don't video tape and document non-sense behaviour of a BPD. 

Anyways, ... .

A dash cam is WONDERFUL .  NSTB loves this type of thing (so do police).  I am quite sure that the NSTB loved to have that video clip of that TransAsia plane that plummeted out of the sky and hit that bridge in Tapei.  They analyze it, see what the evidence points to, ... .coordinates it with the Black boxes ... .and voila'. ... they come with a diagnosis of the situation.

[livednlearned]

It totally bewilders me why others that are victims of a loved one with BPD don't video tape and document non-sense behaviour of a BPD. 

Because in some states, especially ones that are two-party consent, it can create a bigger mess. You're based in Canada and the laws are different.

It's a complicated topic.

[ogopogodude]

Video taping is NOT illegal.  Unless one is pointing it at a neighbours house, trying to catch glimpses of Suzy the 13 year old girl next door in her bikini, sure, ... .

But there are video cams EVERYWHERE.  I challenge anybody to go out and get groceries WITHOUT being videotaped.  Every customer is being video taped whether they know it or not. Grocery stores are riddled with video cameras. This is because there are wing nuts that try to pretend to slip and fall in the vegetable section of the store and claim that the floor was slippery & try to squeeze millions out of a grocery store chain.

It is a matter of HOW you use the evidence.  Perhaps one cannot use it directly in court, as it depends on the state, etc. but one thing is very, very certain: you can show social services ANYTHING you want, as long as it is in the best interest of the children.

This is how I got it court ordered for buttercup to leave the house and me back in WITH the children to raise by myself.  Police tend to believe a distraught mother and will handcuff a father in two seconds flat.  I elected to use my intellect and not allow this to happen to me.  Being falsely accused of violence was not on my agenda. 

One has to use one's intellect on how to get things done.

And don't rely on lawyers on things like this... .

Too many people refrain from video taping because their lawyer says "not to".  Some lawyers are just dummies. My 1st one was, so I got another one.

What is going to happen? Is the video police going to come get you?

Not likely.

Livenlearned, ... you have given me much needed advice in the past.  I follow your posts kinda like Twitter as you have wise words each & every day here on these forums. I value your advice.

I am a male.  It was so frustrating when the police would look at me, as a male, as if I was the problem. Until I showed then video tape footage as well as email evidence that I am anti-violence 100%. The is the reason for my strong campaign of video evidence.

My post here isn't intended to create strife or an argument.  It is just a point of view is all.  Without my efforts of doing video taping then I would have gone stir crazy. 

Rather than having four family members that were not in a good place (me and my two kids and wife) now there is only one person that is not in a good place: my (ex)wife.  Me and our kids are now happy.  Thanks to video tape footage. And agents at The Ministry of Family and Child Development (aka social services). Without their report that I could use in court, my family would be distraught.

[livednlearned]

Video taping is NOT illegal.

My lawyer explained it as "reasonable expectation of privacy." In some states, it is reasonable to expect that you are not being recorded. Each state deals with it in different ways. Some states say one party can record without consent. Some states say you need both parties to consent. In some states, like mine, if you are separated or divorced, and you record what the other party is doing, you can be perceived as unnecessarily aggressive, or antagonizing the other parent. We have some members who have posted on the board where Division of Social Services (or CPS) refused to look at any tapes because they felt it would escalate the conflict. It's never cut and dry. I wish it was.

It's great that recording worked out so well for your case. But everyone has a slightly different situation and what works for some people will not for others. I've heard horror stories about parenting coordinators, including one case where the PC was taking cash from one of the parents. But my PC was excellent and helped me get full custody. It can go both ways.

Police tend to believe a distraught mother and will handcuff a father in two seconds flat. 

In some states, there are dual arrest laws. Both parties get arrested. In some states, there are mandatory arrest laws. Police follow a decision-tree that includes things like: who is behaving aggressively, are there weapons, did a third-party make the call (public disturbance), is there a prior DV arrest, is alcohol or other substances involved. Would I rather have a recording than nothing at all? Yes. But in one of the worst cases of DV I read about, the child was instructed by his dad to record the mom being beaten. What mattered in court wasn't the recording, it was the co-worker who kept a detailed log of the DV episodes, the bruises, the missed days of work, the excuses. In her state, it was not considered DV if he hit his wife with his hands, only if he used an object. In the recording, he was beating her with his fists and as awful as that was, it didn't count. 

I am a male.  It was so frustrating when the police would look at me, as a male, as if I was the problem. Until I showed then video tape footage as well as email evidence that I am anti-violence 100%. The is the reason for my strong campaign of video evidence.

I understand. And I'm not for or against video taping. It's excellent that it worked out well for you, but privacy and recording is a charged topic that can swing both ways. I think people need to gather as much information as possible, including doing their own research about how things work where they live. Lawyers can be good or bad, but even the best ones are stretched thin.

Rather than having four family members that were not in a good place (me and my two kids and wife) now there is only one person that is not in a good place: my (ex)wife.  Me and our kids are now happy.  Thanks to video tape footage. And agents at The Ministry of Family and Child Development (aka social services). Without their report that I could use in court, my family would be distraught.

For me, it was documenting everything that worked. That, and a PC. For you, it was video taping. Some people here used custody evaluations to get the best outcome.

*shrug*

We tend to champion the thing that worked for us. Doesn't mean it will work for others. And the recording thing -- again, something I do -- can (at least) be inadmissible and (at worse) backfire. At best, it can do what it did for you, which was to bring some peace to you and your kids.

There's no silver bullet to these cases that applies to each one. I wish there was.

[ogopogodude]

Fair enough. Video content just has worked wonders for me and my kids. Their Mom's rages have virtually become non-existent because she has become conditioned to expect to be documented. In other words, a boundary has been established:

Act like a nut--> your behaviour will be  potentially archived (to perhaps arise in the future to be used against you)

Act nicely--> kids and everyone around you will interact with you in a positive manner.

We all realize that a BPD has his/her ups and downs and that he/she didn't ask for this affliction. But tough noogies. A BPD has to be responsible for his/her behaviour.

It really bothers me when there are false accusation situations (e.g.: if  there is a situation of self-inflicted mutilation but the BPD, or such, and the BPD tries to blame it on another person within arm's reach and so on)

But you are certainly bang on in that there is no silver bullet for every instance. But for me video taping (and the perception of video taping) has become a boundary.  A boundary that is necessary in my instance.

It worked for me. And it is still working for me and my teenagers.

[livednlearned]

Moselle, has there been DV before in your marriage? If you have any concerns, it's worth reading the workshop on Domestic Violence for Men. This includes false allegations, it's own form of DV, something that plays out different for men than women in many cases.

[formflier]

 

Livednlearned,

Do I remember correctly that you created a book or three ring binder... where you documented everything.

Moselle might benefit from your organizational skills.

Hoping I remember the story correctly.

[livednlearned]

Livednlearned,

Do I remember correctly that you created a book or three ring binder... where you documented everything.

Moselle might benefit from your organizational skills.

Hoping I remember the story correctly.

I did. Three of them 

My ex was very fond of sending emails. His downfall, in fact. I used Gmail and Google calendar to organize everything. I created Labels for emails that fell into a bunch of categories: Drinking, Verbal Abuse, Lies, Stonewalling. I can't remember the other one. And I sorted emails into those labels. I entered anything to do with S13 into Google calendar. Dr. appointments, dentist, school meetings, play dates with friends, camp, after school activities, everything. I also entered anything that N/BPDx did that needed to be recorded. I'm not sure if it's still a feature, but you used to be able to send an email from Gmail and pin it to a date in Google calendar. Then, when it was time to go to court, I printed the Google calendar out as an agenda and everything came out in chronological order.

It made it easy to see patterns. It also helped me keep track of the timeline of events. These cases can really drag on and details get fuzzy. When you are up against someone who casually makes up lies and the courts do nothing about that, you have to be the credible person. Being organized helped me a lot in the deposition. Ex's L asked me questions and I knew exact dates, something that is actually usually very challenging for me. My L said he realized when he saw my binder (she brought it in as a prop) and heard me testify, he realized he had to keep the case out of court.

I treated it like a job and saved myself a lot of money too. I made my own trial binders (they still had to be copied and tabulated according to her system) but she estimated I saved myself approximately $2500. I helped her pinpoint exactly where the points of pain were.

I'm only partly this type A    but I was worried about my case because ex is a former trial attorney and in the beginning, I didn't know how much I could trust my L.

I also kept a journal in Google docs to describe what was happening on any given day, my thoughts. Someone told me to write at the top: This journal is for my L. Something about making sure it could not be subpoenaed in the off chance ex discovered it (attorney-client privilege). I was probably being overly cautious.

That log actually helped me see some patterns in ex's dysregulations.

[Pou]

I just read "Splitting" and it is crazy … I can not believe there are 1% of the people out there that do exactly what the books describes.  It describes my wife's actions so precisely that it gives me goosebumps.  I bet you are having the same experience.  My wife is a NPD and she essentially have no problem lying using emotional components making them looking authentic.  I know if we get divorce, we will bankrupt our family because NPDs will lie until they expire.  So I am pretty sure, my wife will lie and lie and lie until she exhausts her resources and which will be mine too.  What is your situation like?  are you dealing with a BPD or a NPD.  Both are sticky, but I believe NPDs are impossible to deal with.  I wish you well and soon or later, everyone in a PD relationship, the sh*$ will hit the fan.  best wishes.

[ogopogodude]

Livednlearned,

Do I remember correctly that you created a book or three ring binder... where you documented everything.

Moselle might benefit from your organizational skills.

Hoping I remember the story correctly.

I did. Three of them 

My ex was very fond of sending emails. His downfall, in fact. I used Gmail and Google calendar to organize everything. I created Labels for emails that fell into a bunch of categories: Drinking, Verbal Abuse, Lies, Stonewalling. I can't remember the other one. And I sorted emails into those labels. I entered anything to do with S13 into Google calendar. Dr. appointments, dentist, school meetings, play dates with friends, camp, after school activities, everything. I also entered anything that N/BPDx did that needed to be recorded. I'm not sure if it's still a feature, but you used to be able to send an email from Gmail and pin it to a date in Google calendar. Then, when it was time to go to court, I printed the Google calendar out as an agenda and everything came out in chronological order.

It made it easy to see patterns. It also helped me keep track of the timeline of events. These cases can really drag on and details get fuzzy. When you are up against someone who casually makes up lies and the courts do nothing about that, you have to be the credible person. Being organized helped me a lot in the deposition. Ex's L asked me questions and I knew exact dates, something that is actually usually very challenging for me. My L said he realized when he saw my binder (she brought it in as a prop) and heard me testify, he realized he had to keep the case out of court.

I treated it like a job and saved myself a lot of money too. I made my own trial binders (they still had to be copied and tabulated according to her system) but she estimated I saved myself approximately $2500. I helped her pinpoint exactly where the points of pain were.

I'm only partly this type A    but I was worried about my case because ex is a former trial attorney and in the beginning, I didn't know how much I could trust my L.

I also kept a journal in Google docs to describe what was happening on any given day, my thoughts. Someone told me to write at the top: This journal is for my L. Something about making sure it could not be subpoenaed in the off chance ex discovered it (attorney-client privilege). I was probably being overly cautious.

That log actually helped me see some patterns in ex's dysregulations.

I found that the effects of BPD on me has turned me into a scatterbrain and my organizational skills have been deeply affected.  Wouldn't it be great if Randi Kreger created a "What To Do" binder so that one simply follows a flow chart and things to do (check list like a pilot and co-pilot undertake when the are about to take off on the tarmac).

Members like Randi, ForeverDad, or ,Livenlearned, and so on ... seem to have their s** together to get something like this into print and make it easy for people in BPD relationships to get out of their confusion stage, and onto a fulfilling life.

One thing is for sure: I would certainly buy the 3 ring binder. And a few more for my relatives, kids, etc so they know what the protocols/action list would be... .