My Non Father

[Harri]

Hi.  So I had a uBPD mother who could be classified as a Queen/Witch with a bit of hermit and waif sprinkled in there.  I was pretty enmeshed with my FOO until I left the family home in my mid-late 30's.  My history includes heavy emotional and sexual abuse that only stopped when I left.  The most damaging was the emotional crap and the mind games that had me convinced I had been physically violent with my mother, was the crazy and emotionally disordered one and was unworthy of anything good or kind.  I basically felt like a fraud my whole life and would often imagine myself as some awful and unworthy person walking along flogging myself for all the awful things I had done.  My mother got the daughter she dreamed of but while I was "special" I was held to a higher standard because of that specialness and I was a severe disappointment to my mother.  There was so much humiliation, shame and guilt heaped on me for normal things... .never mind when I mis-behaved for real.  Punishment ranged from forcing me to eat large amounts of candy and food when she caught me eating something I shouldn't to  telling me she kept a gun nearby to protect herself from me to banishing herself to live in the unheated and unfinished basement (we live in a cold place) for months at a time, refusing to come upstairs to the point of peeing in jars,.  The latter was to teach me how to treat people... .yeah, I still don't get it, but I do still feel a bit of guilt.  Fortunately it is coupled with a great deal of "holy ___ she was a sick ___ of a mother" (swearing helps) and had everything to do with her and her illness rather than anything to do with me.  Crap like that was the norm.  These were not isolated or occasional incidents.  Oh yeah, religion and god were also used to manipulate and control me.

So that is my history in a nutshell.  I had a good education through high school and worked my way through college.  I got the basics in terms of food, shelter and clothing.  I also know that I was loved.  Yep, really.  I never once doubted my mother loved me and I think in fact that that is what saved me from being more damaged than I am.  She expressed that love in twisted and distorted ways, but everything she did, she did out of her version of love for me.  I accepted that fact long ago rather than torture myself or waste time wondering if she "really" loved me.  Love looks different to different people.  If you asked her if she loved me she would swear on her life she did and would say she "did the best she knew how".  I believe it.  There are lots of people convinced of their own rectitude... .who am I to argue with their reality?  I do not need to accept it as my own nor do I need to reject their beliefs to have my own opinions or feelings about things.  (I have posted that a couple of time because when I have said that elsewhere, I have to then deal with people telling me that was not love... .please don't   I get it.)

So, you might ask where my father fits into all this and my answer is I do not know yet.     My parents were married the whole time, with my mother dying back in 2007 and my father following a little over a year later after 46 years of marriage.  My father was present and a witness to everything she did and said.  She engaged in what I now recognize as parental alienation with him living in the very same house.  I feel bad for the dads here who experience that after a separation or divorce, but trust me, it is possible for it to happen when you are still together and IMO it is far more damaging as the kids have no knowledge of you outside of the BPD mother dynamic, so keep on being you!  Anyhoo, I digress.  She would shame, berate and emasculate him in front of my brother and me.  He would take it for the most part.  I remember being told that he once made the mistake of getting angry with her for not having dinner ready when he got home from work... .poor sap.  She let me know she lit into him and he never did it again.  He was incompetent, lazy, useless, etc, according to her.  They eventually had a huge fight after which my mother refused to sleep in the same room with him.  From that point on she slept on the couch (we had a very small house) when she was not in the basement or much later she slept in my brothers room which he eventually gave up for her and then he (my brother) slept on a mattress on the floor in my fathers room.

My father would allow all of this.  He would whine and cry about it, but he never really stood up to her.  He would occasionally try but she would railroad him... .and he allowed it.  He refused to fight back.  He took the passive way out.  He used avoidance to protect himself.  **By doing all that, he acted in ways that confirmed all the labels she put on him.**  Lazy, worthless, incompetent, sneaky.  While I never once doubted my mother's sick and crazy love for me, I have never felt that my father loved me at all.  He would WATCH.  He let her rage at, berate and humiliate me.  He would watch her sexually abuse me.  He would allow her to sleep in the same bed as my brother too.  I generally do not talk about that part as I feel it is not my story to tell, but I am beginning to see how seeing her abuse my brother and how my father allowed it to happen was also damaging.  My heart breaks for my brother.  He is three years older than I am but in many ways he is stunted emotionally and full of rage he has no clue about.  I have not told him that I suspect our mother was BPD and I feel torn about it.  I am not sure he could handle it as he is still pretty enmeshed even with her being dead for 8 years.  I cry when I think of him as a baby and toddler all alone with her while my father was at work and before I came along.  He was so little and to be alone with her?  My God.  He did not talk until he was 3 and he still had problems with toilet training (not sure what to call it) when he was around 6 or 7... .she would rage and humiliate him too... .call attention to it and shame him for it in front of me, my father, his friends... .  Heart breaking.  God I hate her.

But I hate my father more.  I realize now he was horribly depressed, and who wouldn't be, but it makes no difference.  I do not cut him a bit of slack and I have no understanding for his behavior.  Crazy I get... .dish-rag father's who cry and lie in bed and tell me he just wanted to die even when i was little and who looked to me for comfort and understanding... .who would say crap like "I did the best I could" as if that makes a damn bit of difference piss me off.  Shut up.  Just shut the hell up.  If that was your best then you really are weak and pathetic.  You are far far worse than my severely mentally ill mother could ever be. 

And I realize I have to work through this rage because in some ways I see myself as my father.  One in the same as i too put up to shut up and to avoid rages and triggering her and to have a bit of peace.  I feel like I lost part of my soul doing that but I am not sure my father ever had one to be honest.  In that, I think we are different.  I hope so anyway.

[clljhns]

Hi Harri,

Very powerful story! Much I can relate to. My dad was also berated and denigrated by my mom. She beat my brother and one sister with him in the house and he did nothing to stop it. I did confront him about this several years ago and his response was that he talked to her about it. I was pretty shocked that was his answer. But, then, when I confronted him about the sexual abuse, he just said that if he did, he didn't remember it. Hmmm. I think this is definitely something you would remember.

I get your anger and rage over not having anyone to save you or at least to defend you and your brother. I think this was the hardest part for me. I didn't have anyone that could help. When I look at my father's FOO, I can see why he was so messed up. I can also see why my mom was so damaged based on her childhood. I think the hardest part for kids of parents like this, is when we had children, we didn't do the same, so then it becomes a choice. For me, having my daughter brought all of this home with a bang! I didn't do these things to my daughter because I knew how much it hurt.

When you think about it, though, what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill? I know there is no easy answer, or even a complete answer to this horrible reality of not having parents who loved you and cared for you in a healthy home.

What are you doing to deal with your feelings of anger? For me, I was able to confront him and it helped somewhat. What has helped even more is therapy and journaling.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings here. 

[CanICallYou]

hi!

thank you for sharing your story! i was moved there.

[pessim-optimist]

Hello Harri,

Looking at the other side of the story and seeing how your father played a passive role in the abuse instead of doing something about it and protecting you, (his own children!) is... .well... .inexcusable.

And without trying to excuse him, I think this is a very apt comment:

When you think about it, though, what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill? I know there is no easy answer, or even a complete answer to this horrible reality... .

Harri, you say that you see yourself as similar to your dad because you didn't do anything to stop it. I have three things to say: 1. You grew up in this, and did not know any different. 2. It was you who were abused, not you watching your child be abused (very different) and 3. You had a very bad role model in your dad - if he as an adult did nothing to stop it, what in the world would make you think that you could?

Also, I understand your anger - it is very appropriate. Your father let you down and betrayed you in one of the worst possible ways.

It's over now. Little Harri is safe... . 

Do you detect any other feelings under the anger?

[Harri]

Hi clljhns, thanks for replying.  

his response was that he talked to her about it.

Good grief!  My father said something similar a couple of times (more like "Harri, I am working on it with your mother.  She will come around eventually".  This was once after I moved away and she initiated one of many lengthy silent treatments.  Another time was when i was having a big surgery.  He said he was working on getting her to visit me when I would be in the hospital... .and sure enough she was there.  He had ignored me when i said I did not want her to visit, so of course, there I was in ICU literally in restraints cuz I was out of it and covered in nothing but a freaking hospital gown totally at her mercy.  I remeber coming out of the drugs and everything swimming around in that drugged up haze and there was my father saying "look who's here to see you Harri!" while pointing to my mother'  Gee thanks you jerk!    Thankfully my then boyfriend was there and standing beside me.  He knew not to let her touch me. )

Okay, sorry for the rant there, but (!) as I typed it, I realized he busted my boundaries too.  Or, to be more accurate, he never even saw or heard them because his entire focus was on *her* and pleasing and appeasing her.  Jacka*s!  So my mother could not see me outside of her own filters and projections and my father could not see me outside of the context of my mother.  Well no wonder I used to long to be heard and seen while simultaneously not wanting too much attention.  Neither one of them ever saw *me*.  

Haha, you asked what I am doing to work through the anger and if I journal.  I journal here unless I am overwhelmed and then I freestyle write in a word doc but I do most of my journaling here.  Hence the anger and rawness and rambliness (is that a word?) of my posts.  I feel a bit defensive about my anger and expressing it here too so that is playing a role.  Anyway, processing things as I write and respond to replies is incredibly helpful.  I never would have put the above together without you sharing what your father said about the abuse... .stream of consciousness and all that.  Thank you for sharing that!

Clljhns, the fact that your father copped out of the sexual abuse confrontation makes me angry, but I am not at all surprised.  I am however, very sorry that you had to experience that (both the abuse and his denial).  I read your post about it in another thread and while I did not respond there, I will a bit here.  I think it took an incredible amount of courage to confront him like that.  Well done!  :)o you think it would have helped you to have him acknowledge it and then apologize?  :)id the confrontation help you release some anger or had you already worked through it by that time?  I never said anything to my father about the sexual abuse from my mother, as I did not see the point (I would have only heard "I did not know" and "I did the best I could" BS) and I am only now starting to look at his sexualized (?) inappropriate (?) incest (?) whatever-the-correct-label-is behaviors with me.  another reason, and a big one, for not confronting him was that he was such a hazy after thought.  I have had so much rage toward him but I was unaware until very recently so there was nothing to confront in a sense.  I felt little for him other than contempt and pity.  

When you think about it, though, what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill? I know there is no easy answer, or even a complete answer to this horrible reality of not having parents who loved you and cared for you in a healthy home.

My answer to that question is only a weak, pathetic and seriously sick person would hook up with someone like my mother and stick it out for 46 years.  I call my father a Non because really all the Non label means is they do not have BPD, but I am quite sure my father had something.  Heck, he sort of fits the profile of a waif BPD ( ) but then i wonder if he was NPD as he could be extraordinarily self-centered and oblivious to everything other than his own comfort and needs.  Honestly though i still struggle to not see being a Non as some horrible disorder far worse than BPD.  Reading the other boards here helps me make that distinction.  It is not always a struggle, but it is when my anger for my father is at a peak ... .kinda like now.  

Re: therapy, I am sort of looking for a therapist now as I think I need a bit of professional help for some of these issues but I am not going to wait to work on things.  I know I will be okay and know enough to take things slow and watch for signs that I need to take a break.  I am finding it a bit of a challenge to find someone who is willing to work with someone with my history.  I had a meeting with one last week and I was not impressed.  I will keep looking though.  Can I ask what kind of therapy you had?  Talk, CBT, DBT?  I think you and I had lots of similar experiences from the BPD mother, the sexual abuse and the way our families were so isolated from the rest of the world.  I am both sorry for that, and grateful to you for reaching out to me here.  Thank you.

CanICallYou, thanks for the reply and nice to meet you!  

[Harri]

Pessim-O, hello again!    

When you think about it, though, what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill? I know there is no easy answer, or even a complete answer to this horrible reality... .

I agree, that is a very apt comment.  As I said in my above reply, I think he has a label but I am not sure which one(s).  I am sure that imbecile, jacka*s, pathetic little man all fit along with a few others that are not at all clinical.  My favorite is dumba*s.  Can you think of any (more official ones   ) that I could look up?  Not sure why, but having a label helps a bit even if it is only a partial fit like BPD is for my mother.

Harri, you say that you see yourself as similar to your dad because you didn't do anything to stop it. I have three things to say: 1. You grew up in this, and did not know any different. 2. It was you who were abused, not you watching your child be abused (very different) and 3. You had a very bad role model in your dad - if he as an adult did nothing to stop it, what in the world would make you think that you could?

Way to interrupt my habitual self-abuse with logic and reason Pessim-O!    Thanks for the reality check and the reminder.  In case you haven't noticed, accepting the things you wrote is a struggle and I am not sure if it is because I habitually take on guilt so I can maintain my role of being a worthless person or if something else is going on.  :)oes knowing the why of it all matter when it comes to letting go?  I'm not sure.  

I find the third on the list very interesting.  I get your point that if an adult could not stop it, how could I but I see another thing there too.  Can I attribute my not stopping it all to a behavior I learned from my father, just like I learned some of my behaviors from my mother?  That I learned to avoid, be passive/submissive to abusers as a result of watching my father?  And then getting angry once my limit has been reached and then lashing out?  It's what my father did.  It is what I do.  Interesting.  Regardless, I have a feeling i am going to need to be reminded at least a few more times as i work through this.  Thank you.  

Thank you also for understanding my anger.  I feel very defensive about it and it is hard to let it out here.  I am not sure what is under the anger.  I have read that fear always underlies anger but I am not sure I feel fear.  Or does it mean that I am afraid of my anger?  i don't know.  any ideas?

[pessim-optimist]

Can you think of any (more official ones   ) that I could look up?

No, not really, there is too little to go off of and I am not a psychologist either. 

But a good guess might be co-dependent and definitely one non-clinical label: a coward.

... .I am not sure if it is because I habitually take on guilt so I can maintain my role of being a worthless person or if something else is going on.  Does knowing the why of it all matter when it comes to letting go?  I'm not sure.

Sometimes knowing the how and why helps us in finding the solution. However, if we can find a solution without that, that's fine too.

With blaming yourself, Harri, it might be the mechanism that all children initially use - if something is not right, they feel it is somehow their fault, that they caused it. It is a survival instinct - if the child blamed their parents, they would be cutting themselves off of the only persons that are essential to their survival.

Can I attribute my not stopping it all to a behavior I learned from my father, just like I learned some of my behaviors from my mother?  That I learned to avoid, be passive/submissive to abusers as a result of watching my father?  And then getting angry once my limit has been reached and then lashing out?  It's what my father did.  It is what I do.

I think so, that was the only way you were "taught" to cope with these behaviors. It is a fairly common coping mechanism for people in unhealthy situations in general - go along, go along, go along (and secretly resent it but do or say nothing) and then explode when it reaches unbearable levels.

That was my way of dealing with conflict as well - to 'keep peace' and not make waves and then blow up when it went too far. Actually, with my parents I was a bit of a flip-flopper depending on how important the issue was - either I'd go along, or I'd be intimidatingly confrontational from the start. With everyone else and in public (work etc.) I'd be a pushover, because I didn't want to act undignified, or show inappropriate anger etc. and I did not know how to confront in a healthy way.

It can be easily changed by practice though: (I mean the fix is easy, although it takes lots of time, patience and lots of gradual practice from easier matters to the more difficult). But in general, it means to confront a situation right at the start, and say no (or whatever the limit/desire etc, is) in a much gentler yet confident way. I continue to be surprised at how rewarding and empowering that is - to get good results without any scenes or inappropriate emotional/verbal exchanges.

But I digress - that is probably a topic for another thread (even though it is all connected together).

Thank you also for understanding my anger.  I feel very defensive about it and it is hard to let it out here.  I am not sure what is under the anger.  I have read that fear always underlies anger but I am not sure I feel fear.  Or does it mean that I am afraid of my anger?  i don't know.  any ideas?

Ah, yes, anger was not allowed when little, was it? Well, it is a very important and healthy emotion. It just needs to be managed well.

There might be different emotions under the anger, not just fear. If fear doesn't fit, look for what does fit. Perhaps sadness or something else? Grief over losses can make us very angry... . 

[clljhns]

  Harri

I call my father a Non because really all the Non label means is they do not have BPD, but I am quite sure my father had something.  Heck, he sort of fits the profile of a waif BPD ( barfy) but then i wonder if he was NPD as he could be extraordinarily self-centered and oblivious to everything other than his own comfort and needs.

Even though my father didn't rage outwardly like my mother, I think he did vicariously through her. I feel like this was as much a release for him as it was for her. I used to feel sorry for my father when she would berate him in front of us kids, but then he would grope her breasts and bottom in front of us kids. Neither was appropriate, and both were just as damaging. I think my dad is NPD. His needs were paramount to those of us kids. He needed sleep, so while my mother beat my sister or brother, he would stay in bed and do nothing. He needed someone to take care of the animals he wanted, so he ordered us kids to do it. He wanted to build a big home for my mother, so he used us kids as his free labor to accomplish this. He wouldn't hire professionals to do anything. I can remember carrying blocks for the foundation, my brother using a pick axe to dig the footing for the foundation, carrying bundles of shingles three flights up to the roof, nailing rafters together for the roof, on and on I could go. He did this for her, not us kids. None of us lived in the house. They didn't move into the home until I was 24, and I am the youngest of five. He would communicate to us kids through our mother. He would tell her what he wanted us to do, and she would relay it. For example, he wouldn't permit us girls to cut our hair or wear make-up. He refused to let me participate in cheerleading because only "sluts" were cheerleaders. Even though these words didn't come from his mouth, my mother was eager to tell me what he said. My father hated my brother and never wanted to do anything with him, so I became his son by default. Although, I would have to say that while he wanted me working with him on the cars, he saw nothing wrong in molesting me as a young child. Bizarre. I just don't have an explanation for this warped thinking.

Do you think it would have helped you to have him acknowledge it and then apologize?  Did the confrontation help you release some anger or had you already worked through it by that time? 

Definitely it would have helped for him to have apologized, but I really didn't expect it. The one thing that stands out in my memory of my dad is his refusal to ever be wrong about anything! If I argued a point with him as a young adult, he would come back with "No. You're wrong." or "No. You don't understand." I don't think in his mind that he could accept ever being wrong. He is a very intelligent man, and even invented an apparatus that reduces the amount of ash and debris from the burning of fossil fuels into the atmosphere. He wanted so much to appear intelligent, and so I think he had to distance himself from what he had done to me as a young child. He spent many hours reading books that are on the level of scholarly scientist. As I write this, I wonder if this isn't part of his NPD. The need to appear super intelligent.

Actually, I need to digress a little to explain about the two times I confronted my dad. The first time was on the phone, after he told me he had written a letter to me explaining why he was looking at pornography on the internet. I was stunned, and thankful that I had not received the letter. It never came, thank God. I questioned him as to why he felt the need to tell me and not his wife, my mother. Another narcissistic need on his part. It was what he needed to do, and be damned of the consequences to me. In the course of the conversation he shared that he was impotent and needed to see if anything could arouse him. I apologize for recounting this, because it still makes me want to vomit and I know it will be vile to read.   It was at this point that I realized he didn't see me as his daughter, but more his lover. So that is when I told him that I had never forgotten what he did to me and that it has damaged me beyond belief. I was not angry or raging. I was very calm and in that moment, everything in me and my world was very still and quiet. I don't know what he could have said at that moment that would have made anything better. The second time I confronted him was about the beatings of my siblings by our mother. I did this face-to-face with him. The funny thing is, Harri, he looked terrified when he turned around and saw me standing there. In his yard, unafraid. Not only did he give me a pathetic answer for the physical abuse by my mother, he told me I was out of the will and that I would get nothing from their home or the money he made from his invention. I actually laughed at him and told him that I didn't want anything they had, they could keep it all. I didn't want their possessions, I wanted their love, unconditionally.

.  Can I ask what kind of therapy you had?  Talk, CBT, DBT?

I was first introduced to CBT through a friend who is a therapist, about 25 years ago. Then I went into private therapy ten years ago and then last year again. I guess it is talk therapy, because that is what we do. I watched all of John Bradshaw's series on the family which was an eye-opener for me. You can find his works on Youtube. In the last ten years I read a lot of material that helped to reframe my experiences.

I completely understand that you want a therapist that you feel comfortable with. I believe finding a therapist is just like shopping for a car, you keep test driving until you find the one that you feel the most comfortable with and fits you. I also get your anger. I call this righteous anger and you have every right to feel this way.

Do you detect any other feelings under the anger?

This is a great question by passim-optimist. Personally I believe that anger only masks our pain, fear, and sadness. It is our defense against events that cause us to feel afraid, or in pain. I wonder if the question here is do you have access to many different emotions, or are you only able to recognize anger and sadness? I ask this, because I really didn't have a range of emotions for most of my life. What do you think?

Wishing you peace on your journey.

[Harri]

Pessim-O, I am not a psychologist either, but why let pesky little details stop me?    The co-dependent label does apply for many of his behaviors.  I find his behaviors so very despicable.  A couple of years after I moved out and he was alone with her for the first time in decades he called me, looking for support and sympathy.  He said he knew there was something wrong with her from the beginning and mentioned how she had so much trouble getting along with his family and her own.  She hated my father's sister and her husband and would frequently make fun of them.  I only have a few memories of my aunt but they all involve my mother being very upset and raging.  She eventually cut them off entirely and my father allowed it to happen.  We had contact with his father who developed alzheimer's and lived with us for a short time... .and of course she raged at him as well.  A man totally out of his head who would say crappy and abusive things (so she said) and my father did nothing.  He was eventually moved to a nursing home and our visits were very few.  My father went to visit for a short time, but eventually all but stopped going.  I think it was because my mother made it so difficult for him when he would return though I can't be certain.  I guess my point is that my father betrayed everyone, even his own father and siblings, not just me and my brother.  He gave up everything for her.  She cut off her own family too except for her mother but that was an even more complicated mess.

Sometimes he used to sneak around trying to 'comfort me' after my mother raged, hugging me to him, but he was the one crying and clutching me to him.  I can remember whispered conversations.  I do not remember his words, but I do remember my mother would inevitably open the door and 'find us' and he would immediately drop his arms, and push me away to distance himself.  He was so afraid of her and would use me to comfort himself.  Nothing about what he did was for me, it was all for him.  Saving his own ass, sacrificing me and immediately pushing me away as soon as she was around.  

So when he called that day, looking for sympathy and someone to listen to him, I had nothing to offer him.  I told him straight out that he made his bed and he would have to deal with the consequences on his own.  I told him I had no sympathy for him.  I was angry as hell.  His admission made it clear that he knew.  He knew she was crazy and left us with her!  He bent to her rule and allowed her to do the things she did out of a desire to avoid triggering her further and having to suffer when she turned the abuse on him for not 'supporting her'.  He allowed us to see him be raged at, humiliated and belittled.  He said nothing out of fear, a desire to avoid.  As a result I see him as a spineless, worthless pathetic little man.  Who the hell does that?  Co-dependent Nons?  Weighing the odds, giving priority to a show of a united front for the kids to see and allowing mind games, power struggles, emotional and sexual abuse.  But oh yes, we must not undermine the BPD parent!  We must not engage in alienation of the BPD parent!  We must not utter a negative word about them... .all the while, letting me be abused and using me as a freaking shield so he does not have his fragile world rocked and inconvenienced by 'triggering' her.

Yep.  I gotta leave this here right now.  The lid of the box labeled " about my father" has blown completely off.  

[Harri]

Pessim-O: 

With blaming yourself, Harri, it might be the mechanism that all children initially use - if something is not right, they feel it is somehow their fault, that they caused it. It is a survival instinct - if the child blamed their parents, they would be cutting themselves off of the only persons that are essential to their survival.

Interesting.  I understand this survival mechanism and I have been able to see how it applies to my feelings about my mother.  Understanding that helped me accept the fact that I did and still do love my mother.  It helped it make sense that I could love someone like her.  I never really applied it to my father.  I am not aware of feeling love for him.  I am not sure at this point if it is hidden under the anger or if it just never formed for him.  He really was that over-shadowed by my mother.  Even after she died.  It is so sad really.

Actually, with my parents I was a bit of a flip-flopper depending on how important the issue was - either I'd go along, or I'd be intimidatingly confrontational from the start. With everyone else and in public (work etc.) I'd be a pushover, because I didn't want to act undignified, or show inappropriate anger etc. and I did not know how to confront in a healthy way.

I did the same with my parents, but only when I was younger.  There was a sense of power from it all.  It is funny because I forgot about that part though I have been thinking a lot about how my parents looked to me for answers and direction when I was very young.  I knew the answers too.  I knew what the right thing to do was back then, or so it seems looking back.  I think that part of me, the part that enjoyed confronting and intimidating people scared me and I shut that part off... .until I got pissed that is.   

But in general, it means to confront a situation right at the start, and say no (or whatever the limit/desire etc, is) in a much gentler yet confident way. I continue to be surprised at how rewarding and empowering that is - to get good results without any scenes or inappropriate emotional/verbal exchanges.

Thanks for this.  I have done this too but rarely.  It is interesting though how I do not harbor resentment or anger for those few occasions when i did speak up.  Recently I have been trying that more often with a friend of mine.  for years I just let things slide, but not any more.  I don't jump on things, but I do speak up before I allow it to build.  Looking back though I can see where my letting things build and then exploding caused some big problems with my ex and with a former long time friend.  Okay.  I can do this.

anger was not allowed when little, was it? Well, it is a very important and healthy emotion. It just needs to be managed well.

You got it.  Anger was a cause of shame and was an indication that I was squandering what God gave me (whatever the heck *it* was) and humiliation followed.  Often what would happen is my mother would punish herself for my expressing anger.  Somehow it was supposed to teach me something.  What I do not know, other than being a martyr.  Unfortunately, that is a role I know all too well.  No wonder I have turned all that anger towards myself, with only momentary glimpses of the anger I feel towards my father until now.  I still have it towards my mother, but it is much more manageable and is more a momentary thing in comparison to when years ago or even to what I feel about my father today.

I will look for what underlies the anger.  Right now though, the anger is a bit too strong in my head and my heart. 

clljhns, thank you for telling parts of your story.  I can see you better now and I am filled with admiration for how hard you have worked and how much you have overcome.  For your father to use you as he did... .it is just outrageous to me.  The selfishness too.  I can't comprehend doing that to someone and certainly not a child. 

Bizarre. I just don't have an explanation for this warped thinking.

Neither do I.  NPD comes pretty close but is a bit too clinical for me.  As much as I may wonder about and search for the proper clinical label for my own father, there is no label that seems to include personal responsibility and choice to be the men they were/are.  The whole porno explanation... .I have no words.  I tend to agree that he saw you as his lover.  That is both incredibly sad (for you) and repulsive (him). 

The funny thing is, Harri, he looked terrified when he turned around and saw me standing there. In his yard, unafraid.

To me, this proves he knew.  He knew every damned thing.   :'(

I wonder if the question here is do you have access to many different emotions, or are you only able to recognize anger and sadness?

I do have access to other emotions... .but generally not for my father.  I go from foggy confusion to anger with him.  Over the years I have become very very skilled with compartmentalizing and disconnecting things.  Other than being a defense, I think it helped me give order to the chaos.  the problem right now seems to be connecting the things.  anger is loose.  so is rage.  I see that as being a good thing and now all I need to do is locate and unlock the other boxes.  If I could do it with my mother, I know I can do it with my father.  Chances are though it is going to get a bit ugly.  but I can deal with that too.

thanks to you both for your support and for sharing your wisdom and hearts with me.

[clljhns]

Harri,

You are so right! If you did this with your mother, you WILL do this with your father! Kudos to you on your brave journey into the eye of the storm! I am speaking of your rage. Is there someone with you that can help you through this? I know that when I finally let the dam break, I had two very close friends with me to see me through it.

Wishing you peace and continued strength as you delve into the painful parts of your heart. 

[polly87]

Hi there,

Thank you Harri for sharing this part of your story.

My history includes heavy emotional and sexual abuse that only stopped when I left.  The most damaging was the emotional crap and the mind games that had me convinced I had been physically violent with my mother, was the crazy and emotionally disordered one and was unworthy of anything good or kind... .There was so much humiliation, shame and guilt heaped on me for normal things... .never mind when I mis-behaved for real.

It is striking to me how much this looks like my own story. I am so sorry this cr-p was done to you Harri. You taught me self-compassion when you replied to my first thread that I was not the only one. So I hope you can feel some compassion for yourself now like I feel for you when I read this.

I think you are from an incredibly complicated FOO... .The fact that your father allowed all those terrible things to happen makes me understand that you do not feel love for him. He seems like an emotionless person, unable of feeling pity. So that makes you different from your father. You are not emotionless, in fact you are a very empathetic person while he is *pathetic*. Maybe that’s the label that you’re looking for?

It seems only natural that you would copy your father’s coping mechanisms to survive your mother’s behaviour. Your father’s way of coping was succesful in that he did not divorce your mother. As a kid, you could not leave your parents and therefore you needed some mechanism to deal with your mother’s abuse – and your father’s way was the only one you knew. So it’s not surprising to me.

In my own case, I find that my coping mechanisms were forced upon me not by example but by the punishments I was given. When I was sad or angry I was punished and thus I learned not to feel. Maybe the same goes for your case in addition to copying your father’s mechanisms.

Clljhns I think you make a very good point in observing:

what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill?

I think the fact that my dad wanted to divorce my mother says a lot about his mental health. He told her that he did not want to put up with her behaviour (but little did he know that she would keep me from him after the divorce.) My ex-stepdad G. on the other hand is still in love with my mother. He was the one who would put up with *anything*. Rages, fights, physical abuse... .all while I was present. He did not protect me. Maybe he even knew that she sexually abused me while they had a relationship. (I still speak to him on an irregular basis and I wonder now if I should tell him what happened.)

Harri, I think your father is a bit like my ex-stepdad... .looking on at violent scenes doing nothing for a helpless kid. I think this is horrible.

Yet I have forgiven my ex-stepdad because I felt like he was affectionate towards me and meant no real harm (he did not abuse me emotionally and he never got angry with me – maybe my standards are a bit lower than average on this ).

There is a major difference though – while I do not know if my ex-stepdad knows about the sexual abuse, I am sure that he did not look on while it happened. I cannot imagine how cold the soul must be of one who can look while such horrible acts are taking place. It is disgusting. It is disgusting that your mother sexually abused you and it is just as disgusting that your father did not stop her.

I would like to say a lot more but I will leave off here because my energy is running out ... .I will be back here soon though. I am proud of you Harri for examining your feelings towards your father. You do not show too much anger at all imho. Wishing you and clljhns strength and peace to deal with the things that happened to you.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri,

I don't feel the slightest qualified to respond to the stories about the sexual abuse you received, but my heart surely aches for what you and others, Polly and clljhns included, have gone through.  :'( In my own journey towards healing, while I have many repressed memories, I believe sexual abuse was not there amongst all the others that were. For that I am thankful.

What has intrigued me the most through this thread is the theme about our fathers and of course our BPDm. Like you, I have not been able to unlock things which are related to my dad. Your postings and those of others have been very enlightening to me, putting into words so many of the very things I saw in my own dad.

He said he knew there was something wrong with her from the beginning and mentioned how she had so much trouble getting along with his family and her own.  She hated my father's sister and her husband and would frequently make fun of them.  I only have a few memories of my aunt but they all involve my mother being very upset and raging.  She eventually cut them off entirely and my father allowed it to happen... .I guess my point is that my father betrayed everyone, even his own father and siblings, not just me and my brother.  He gave up everything for her.  She cut off her own family too.

He bent to her rule and allowed her to do the things she did out of a desire to avoid triggering her further and having to suffer when she turned the abuse on him for not 'supporting her'.  He allowed us to see him be raged at, humiliated and belittled.  He said nothing out of fear, a desire to avoid.

I've heard my father in recent months point out that my uBPDm was the one who caused him to walk away from his family, but I'd never thought about it in the terms that he never stood up to her. Well, he did in his own way by beating her into temporary silence, but it never solved anything. He couldn't stand up to her ever.

Clljhns,, Two really poignant thoughts of yours caused me to stop in my tracks.

I get your anger and rage over not having anyone to save you or at least to defend you and your brother. I think this was the hardest part for me. I didn't have anyone that could help. When I look at my father's FOO, I can see why he was so messed up. I can also see why my mom was so damaged based on her childhood. I think the hardest part for kids of parents like this, is when we had children, we didn't do the same, so then it becomes a choice. For me, having my daughter brought all of this home with a bang! I didn't do these things to my daughter because I knew how much it hurt.

When you think about it, though, what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill?

I've been fighting hard to accept that it was my parents responsibility, not mine, that it wasn't my fault. When I read that 'when we had children, we didn't do it the same because we knew how much it hurt... .' Wow!    I DID know how much it hurt and even before we had children I had told my DH that I wanted to do it different and not pass on all the crap and dysfunction. We chose to do it differently. They had the same option! Yet they did not take it. And all the while the violins play in the background as nearly everyone I speak with says, "They did the best they could. I feel for them because look at what an awful childhood they had."   Okay, I get that but they did have the same choice I did! Now I see it. Thank you.

I have wondered recently about the second quote because my step-dad is currently looking for a bride from overseas now that my mom is deceased. What? Yes, he did marry my mom, and to me that tends to prove his unhealthiness (although I thought he was healthier than that). Big sigh... .

Lastly to Pessim-O, thank you for this thought:  

2. It was you who were abused, not you watching your child be abused (very different)

The thought of someone abusing my child or grandchild brings up far different thoughts than those of having gone through it myself.

You all are helping me peel back some of my own 'father' issues which I haven't been able to reach. Thank you.  

(Sorry about how long my post is.)

Wools

[pessim-optimist]

I want to preface my post with the following statement:

A parent perpetrating, or not stopping sexual abuse when they know about it, is in my opinion always a choice and is inexcusable. What I am going to share applies to much lesser trauma, and I wondered if it even belongs in this thread.

In the end I think it does, because it is a "non Father" thread... .

When I read that 'when we had children, we didn't do it the same because we knew how much it hurt... .' Wow!    I DID know how much it hurt and even before we had children I had told my DH that I wanted to do it different and not pass on all the crap and dysfunction. We chose to do it differently. They had the same option! Yet they did not take it.

I remember my uBPDm talking about her early days with my NPD-traits dad, and how he shared stories about his parents and physical/emotional abuse that he suffered, and how he vowed he didn't want to be like his dad, and asked my mom to tell him, if he ever behaved that way.

My grandmother was most likely uBPD queen and my grandfather, I don't know - by the time I was around, he fought w/my grandma a lot, but he was always nice and mellow to us. I know that my father adored my grandma and hated my grandpa. For me, she was really charming, but I did not trust her.

My father ended up abusing my brother physically and emotionally in spite of his good motives and in spite of my mother 'reminding' him. He saw it as 'this was different' and when it came to his behavior to my mom; when she told him he was like his dad, he would say - "There is a good reason for that, now I understand why he did that!"

I do not want to excuse our fathers, and I do not want to say that they could not have done better. They could have listened better to their conscience, they could have been open to others telling them the truth about things, they could have chosen to go to therapy, etc., etc.

When you think about it, though, what healthy man would attach himself to a woman who is so ill?

And while I may be wrong, it seems to me that the worse the abuse, the more of a choice it is and the more damaged the individual, the lower their threshold for making a healthy choice in favor of anyone but themselves... .

My father became a victim of his own dysfunction, but he also consistently made decisions that trapped him even further.

[Harri]

Hi.  Got interrupted by real life happenings and have not been able to get back to a place where I could work on the issues in this thread.  It seems that when life throws a curveball at me it is usually at the worst possible time in terms of doing emotional work.  I can't get back to my anger or even the hurt and sorrow I found underlying it all.  I have however, done a ton of crying and allowing myself to feel sad for the last week and a half so I am sure a lot of pent up emotions regarding my father were released. 

I have come around to looking at my inaction and willingness to go along and put up with crap as a learned behavior.  This thread and the responses have helped a lot with that so thank you all.  Knowing that I learned to do those things as a way to cope and survive just as I learned how to use my anger and words as a weapon does help me quite a bit.  The facts do not change, but my understanding has lead to a reluctant acceptance.  It is what it is right?

I still have not come to a place of compassion for my father though I think once I can get in touch with my anger, sorrow and hurt and work it through I will get there.  I don't think it is important for me to have compassion for *him* but I do think that I need to get there so I can have compassion for myself.  I have not completely separated the way I look at me from the way I look at my father... .still have a few more threads to cut there.

I know I have not addressed each response individually here and for that I am sorry.  I have too many thoughts floating around in my head to do so, most of them stemming from replies written here, but some that I have been letting rattle round and round in my head.  I have no clear direction here anymore and I can't really grasp one idea to talk about.  I do keep thinking about the act of choice and how our choices are a reflection of our emotional as well as situational intellect and how the choices we make can often define us, but when i try to follow that thought through, I get lost.

[Panda39]

I know this is a little outside the scope of this thread but I want to tell you all how amazing and courageous I think you all are to look at your pasts... .right in the face, I know it isn't easy.

I plan on sharing your thread with my SO (he comes here too).  I'm dating a non-father he has an uDPDxw and they have 2 daughters.  He is confident that he made the right choice leaving his ex (he was miserable) but I like to remind him about what that choice to leave/divorce demonstrates to his daughters.  

His leaving created a whole other universe for his daughters.  The separation of the two parents and the lack of codependence has allowed them to truly see their mother for who she is and for that matter see their father for who he is.  

Both daughter's best friends are also from troubled homes (I think they all relate to each other) and my SO has become the safe harbor for them all... .I describe his house as the "home for wayward girls".  He's not always sure how he feels about all this but I think it says an awful lot about what kind of man he is.

Again I want to say how much I appreciate you all sharing your stories because a side effect of sharing them is to validate the dads out there that have acted to benefit their children.

[Harri]

Oh Panda, I am so glad you posted that.  Thank you.  I have had such a hard time with trying to not feel bad for expressing my anger here, a place full of Nons, some of them parents.  I know that most of the fathers here are making better choices and are working on their own issues, but at the same time I have felt like I had to protect them from my anger.  Thank you for allowing me to see this through your eyes and gain a different perspective re: non fathers who have made the right or at least better choices than my father did.  Having a safe/healthy person to go to or even time away from the craziness is so important. 

Thank you. 

[polly87]

Hi,

Panda, I just read your reply and i think you make a very good point. I am in the process of recognising my MIL’s BPD traits (my mother has uBPD). My FIL  is a Non and I can see now how he has been supporting MIL’s unhealthy choices and behaviour, e.g. her choice to quit T (years ago) and her controlling behaviour. I did not realise this before.

It seems to me that your SO is very good at dealing with these issues in a healthy way. 

Harri, I’m glad you feel less guilty about your anger. It’s okay to be angry in your situation. Your father should have stopped the abuse. He did not. That’s wrong. In all cases.

Wishing you the best 

[Panda39]

Oh Panda, I am so glad you posted that.  Thank you.  I have had such a hard time with trying to not feel bad for expressing my anger here, a place full of Nons, some of them parents.  I know that most of the fathers here are making better choices and are working on their own issues, but at the same time I have felt like I had to protect them from my anger.  Thank you for allowing me to see this through your eyes and gain a different perspective re: non fathers who have made the right or at least better choices than my father did.  Having a safe/healthy person to go to or even time away from the craziness is so important. 

Thank you. 

Harri,

You have every reason to be angry what you experienced is abuse.  It's okay to be angry believe me many of us here are angry particularly when it comes to abusing children.  It doesn't matter if you are an adult with a BPD parent here on the "Coping" Board or the parent with a BPDx with children over on the "Coparenting" Board abusing children on any level is not okay.  When I first arrived here almost a year ago I was very angry about my SO's uBPDex and her treatment both of my SO and their daughters because I was frustrated that I couldn't do anything about it and because it was wrong!  I have since been able to disengage from the anger which was a natural reaction but in my case was counterproductive.  My SO'S D14 & D18 have both over the last year have come to recognize their mother's problems and have finally stopped seeng her as a victim.  Both on their own have gone low contact with their mom for the last 2 months.  I think this is a direct result of their dad leaving and creating an alternate universe.  They both are creating their own boundaries and having the relationship (or not) they choose with their mom.

It's okay to express your anger you have every right and it is completely understandable based on your past, but someday when you're ready I fully expect you to let your anger go and a weight will be lifted.  I have confidence that you will work your way through all of this and come out the otherside.

Keep on Movin' on 

[Woolspinner2000]

Panda,

Something in your post really struck a cord with me.

My SO'S D14 & D18 have both over the last year have come to recognize their mother's problems and have finally stopped seeng her as a victim. 

My uBPDm always said she was a victim. To stop seeing her as that, just as the girls have done, puts the responsibility right back where it belongs, on her. Like clljhns said, our parents made their own choices to carry on the abuse, yet we chose to not abuse anymore.

Thank you for an enlightening moment! 

Wools

[Kwamina]

How are you feeling now Harri? You are addressing some though issues but you're very courageously facing them head on

I have had such a hard time with trying to not feel bad for expressing my anger here, a place full of Nons, some of them parents.  I know that most of the fathers here are making better choices and are working on their own issues, but at the same time I have felt like I had to protect them from my anger.

It is absolutely commendable that you consider the sensibilities of other members, this is something we encourage our members to do so this is great. Yet I also want to add that we are all adults here and that you aren't responsible for our feelings or how we react to your posts. What might help to keep in mind is that you are just expressing your anger towards your father. This doesn't say anything about fathers in general but is only about your own father. Considering the things he has done to you and also the things that he allowed to be done to you, I think your anger is totally justified. You've kept this anger inside you for a very long time, for many years solely directed it at yourself and now for the first time you are directing it at your father. This is a whole new experience so I get that it might also in some ways be a somewhat uneasy or unsettling experience. I do hope as you further explore this issue, you'll also experience it as liberating now that you're starting to lift the responsibility for your father's abuse of off yourself and are rightly placing it on him.

[Harri]

Hi Panda.

It's okay to express your anger you have every right and it is completely understandable based on your past, but someday when you're ready I fully expect you to let your anger go and a weight will be lifted.  I have confidence that you will work your way through all of this and come out the otherside.

Thank you for that.  I look forward to the day when I let the anger go... .carrying it around is causing me as much hurt as the abuse did at one point.  Knowing that has made it a bit easier to keep confronting it and poking at it, and it has lessened some since starting to work on my father issues.   

Kwamina, thank you for asking how I am.  I am okay.  Been busy with real life happenings but i have been able to keep processing stuff.  I found my anger again too so that made me happy  .  It seems more focused now and easier to deal with than just a couple of weeks ago and certainly compared to months ago.  I also feel sad.  Incredibly sad.  I guess that too is a good thing.  Fortunately, I have other stuff to think about and keep me busy so it is not overwhelming.  It is interesting to me that I very quickly got through my shut down (after I had lost touch with my anger a couple of weeks ago).  It took about 2 days to get my feelings back and that is actually pretty damn good for me.  Usually when I have a big crisis I go deep into management mode and it takes a much longer time to get back to the world of feeling.  Kudos to me for managing and feeling after two days!  It feels a bit silly to write that but it is a pretty big thing for me.  How do you handle a real life crisis while trying to process the past and work through emotions?  Is it normal to sort of 'shut down' for a couple of days and just become super focused on getting through?  I don't think what I did before (shutting down for months on end) was healthy or good, but maybe a couple of days is normal?  Just curious what others think and what happens to them.

So I have been allowing the images of my father's mouth coming at me to just come.  No fighting it or slamming my mind shut.  I am still not okay with it.  I find it repulsive and I get chills up and down my spine when i focus on it and my eyes fill with tears.  His hands... .there is something about them too.  Maybe it is just the way he would hold my face when he tried to kiss me.  Whatever it is, as least things are coming together and are a bit more fluid in my mind.  I keep remembering a time when he and I got caught in a bit of a mob when on vacation.  I grabbed his hand to guide him and make sure we did not lose each other and over the years I keep remembering being surprised that I grabbed his hand and held it.  I now wonder if it is symbolic of a big part of my relationship with him.  Some memories have been coming back of the anxiety and fear I felt when he would lie in bed depressed and talk about how he just wanted to die.  I remember the falling feeling in my stomach and that feeling of grief... .you know that burning lump of hurt and in the back of your throat and your chest aches and you have trouble catching your breath because of the fear?  I had that a lot with him as a kid.  With my mother too, but I am just now remembering how frequently i felt that with my father.  so I wonder if my remembering me holding his hand and focusing on his hand is indicative of how I tried to take care of him.  I can now remember standing there and wringing my hands in anxiety when he would just lie on his bed and stare at the wall.   I used to go into his room and check to see if he was breathing and sometimes I would try to talk to him and he would cry and tell me how he just wanted to die and he could not take it anymore.

It pisses me off that he said that stuff to me.  It pisses me off that he would leave me and my brother with her while he worked late and how he would retreat to his bed in depression when my mother was at her very worst and just cry and whine about his life while my brother and I were left trying to fix things and deal with things on our own. 

I understand better why, as an adult, I have never really wanted to be responsible for taking care of someone else and why i have such a hard time asking for and receiving help. 

Okay, just rambling now.    <--- see ya!

[Kwamina]

Hi again Harri

I understand better why, as an adult, I have never really wanted to be responsible for taking care of someone else and why i have such a hard time asking for and receiving help. 

This is an important realization, being able to clearly see and understand why you do certain things. Another step forward

How do you handle a real life crisis while trying to process the past and work through emotions?  Is it normal to sort of 'shut down' for a couple of days and just become super focused on getting through?  I don't think what I did before (shutting down for months on end) was healthy or good, but maybe a couple of days is normal?  Just curious what others think and what happens to them.

I think it's different for everyone. Most important thing I think is that you're able to pick yourself up after you've shut down. I had been depressed for many years since the age of 12 so you could say I had been 'shut down' for years. Fortunately I was able to find the switch again

When processing difficult thoughts and memories I do think it's normal to get overwhelmed and/or shut down sometimes. Probably as a coping mechanism to protect yourself, sort of like survival mode kicking in until you are able to continue processing what you've been through.

Kudos to me for managing and feeling after two days!

Yet another sign of progress

Some memories have been coming back of the anxiety and fear I felt when he would lie in bed depressed and talk about how he just wanted to die.

... .

so I wonder if my remembering me holding his hand and focusing on his hand is indicative of how I tried to take care of him.  I can now remember standing there and wringing my hands in anxiety when he would just lie on his bed and stare at the wall.   I used to go into his room and check to see if he was breathing and sometimes I would try to talk to him and he would cry and tell me how he just wanted to die and he could not take it anymore.

It pisses me off that he said that stuff to me.  It pisses me off that he would leave me and my brother with her while he worked late and how he would retreat to his bed in depression when my mother was at her very worst and just cry and whine about his life while my brother and I were left trying to fix things and deal with things on our own. 

I am sorry to hear that your father 'burdened' you like this when you were just a kid. I can only imagine how scary it must be hearing your father say these kinds of things. There were already so many other things going on and this only added to the stress and anxiety. Looking back do you perhaps feel like your father might have 'used' you and your brother to regulate the difficult emotions he was experiencing? Were there also other instances that he discussed his negative thought or feelings with you?

[Harri]

Hello Kwamina!  How are you?  You always give such great feedback and are so validating.  How do you do that?     thank you. 

I am surprised to read this from you---> "I had been depressed for many years since the age of 12 so you could say I had been 'shut down' for years. Fortunately I was able to find the switch again"  I am sorry to hear you struggled with depression for such a long time but I am so glad you found the on switch!  I said I was surprised because I can't see a trace of depression in any of your posts though I know you have had your own battles to fight, but I guess that is the point right?  That was then... . 

Looking back do you perhaps feel like your father might have 'used' you and your brother to regulate the difficult emotions he was experiencing? Were there also other instances that he discussed his negative thought or feelings with you?

I think so though it is hard to remember everything.  I do know when he would hug me it was mostly to comfort himself.  As I remember them, they were more desperate grabs and clutches rather than a comforting embrace.  I do not remember any other significant conversations with him though.  Maybe that will change as i keep working on this.

It is interesting to recognize some changes in my thought patterns about him.  I am still angry, but now more sad than anything and I can feel a softening in my heart towards him.  I spend a lot of time reading the other boards here, and really try hard to read at the Staying board as it gives me a small glimpse of how things must have been for him as a husband to a uBPD/fruitloop.  I don't think he was abused as a kid or anything like that so I don't really understand why he would be so passive as an adult.  He was a staff sergeant in the marines too, so when I think of him being so passive... .though my mother was pretty tough.  Not physically violent but she made up for that with her mind games and emotional abuse.  It still does not make sense to me.   Maybe he had PTSD from the war?  I'm not trying to make excuses, but I would like some kind of understanding regarding his behavior.  How does one become so ... .mushy?  Or so morally bankrupt?  I can think of other instances where he seemed to have no behavioral checks even for little things.  Like parking in handicapped spots or cheating on a little wooden car he and my brother were supposed to build for boy scouts... .  not big things in themselves, but things that speak to character. 

[polly87]

Hi again Harri 

I think you are really brave to allow yourself to look back on those awful triggering images of your father. You are also really brave to allow yourself to receive the support from this board.

I used to go into his room and check to see if he was breathing and sometimes I would try to talk to him and he would cry and tell me how he just wanted to die and he could not take it anymore.

It pisses me off that he said that stuff to me.  It pisses me off that he would leave me and my brother with her while he worked late and how he would retreat to his bed in depression when my mother was at her very worst and just cry and whine about his life while my brother and I were left trying to fix things and deal with things on our own.

I am sorry your father put you through this. I do not know what to say except to wish you strength and peace in dealing with these memories.

It is interesting to recognize some changes in my thought patterns about him.  I am still angry, but now more sad than anything and I can feel a softening in my heart towards him.

This is great news Harri . I feel like I am making similar progress... .Before, I used to feel only anger and hate towards my mother as well as towards myself. But now that I am learning to accept what has happened, I am starting to feel compassion for myself and I am beginning to accept the fleas  that I picked up from 25 years of living with her... .In other words I am learning not to hate the part of her in me.

In a way, you have been on a similar journey, because you used to see your father and yourself as the same person, right? So by feeling less anger towards your father, you might be able to feel less anger and more compassion towards yourself as well.

I can think of other instances where he seemed to have no behavioral checks even for little things.  Like parking in handicapped spots

This reminds me of my mother, who would also park in handicapped spots. When I was little, she would nick a newspaper from the supermarket each Saturday and sometimes other stuff as well. You and I can only be glad that we are not such low people 

Harri I’m wishing you the best 

[Harri]

Hi Polly!

thanks for this:

In a way, you have been on a similar journey, because you used to see your father and yourself as the same person, right? So by feeling less anger towards your father, you might be able to feel less anger and more compassion towards yourself as well

I had not made that connection so thank you.  Seems a bit silly as I know I have internalized the anger but it is so helpful to have you say this as it reminds me to do self checks.  lately i have been doing much better at taking care of myself and have made better choices overall when it comes to dealing with things and I do think it is linked to the softening in my attitude towards my father. 

I am glad you too have made progress in becoming more compassionate towards yourself.  That is wonderful and I am so very glad for you.

thank you my friend.   

[polly87]

Hi Harri,

You’re welcome! I am glad you have been more gentle with yourself lately. Keep up the good work! 

Like you, I am finding it somewhat easier to make good choices now that I can feel more compassion for myself. Allowing myself to feel emotions opens up new ways of dealing with things (and new issues to work on show themselves to me).

How are you doing with the anger now? Can you connect with that part of you? And how is little Harri doing? Some time ago, you mentioned that you had issues with eating if I remember correctly (my memory is a mess sometimes) - I hope you find it a bit easier to be gentle with yourself on that level as well.

Wishing you the best 

[Kwamina]

How do you do that?  

What can I say, it's a parrot thing!

I am surprised to read this from you---> "I had been depressed for many years since the age of 12 so you could say I had been 'shut down' for years. Fortunately I was able to find the switch again"  I am sorry to hear you struggled with depression for such a long time but I am so glad you found the on switch!  I said I was surprised because I can't see a trace of depression in any of your posts though I know you have had your own battles to fight, but I guess that is the point right?  That was then... . 

Don't forget that I'm a blue bird I still sometimes sing the blues but I've also learned to sing other tunes. Nowadays my repertoire is quite diverse! But on a more serious note, as much as I would like to say it's all in the past... .it isn't. Fortunately I now have acquired new skills that help me cope such as CBT that we discussed extensively in some other threads and also mindfulness.

Maybe he had PTSD from the war?  I'm not trying to make excuses, but I would like some kind of understanding regarding his behavior.  How does one become so ... .mushy?  Or so morally bankrupt?  I can think of other instances where he seemed to have no behavioral checks even for little things.  Like parking in handicapped spots or cheating on a little wooden car he and my brother were supposed to build for boy scouts... .  not big things in themselves, but things that speak to character.  

When it comes to the extreme behaviors your father exhibited, I think it's really difficult to determine the 'why' of his actions. There might be contributing factors such as the war but even considering those things answering the 'why' question might still remain somewhat elusive. Do you feel like something would change for you if you were able to determine any rational reasons explaining your father's behavior? Would it change your view of him and his abusive behavior towards you and if so how? Do you perhaps feel that finding a rational explanation for his behavior would in some way also allow you to feel differently about yourself?

[Harri]

Hi Polly.  Yes, I am able to connect with my anger now.  Little Harri is doing pretty good too, thank you.  She is acting up a bit now and then so I am learning to set limits and boundaries with her too.  It sounds weird to write it that way as if we are separate, but I know we are not.  But it is the hurt scared kid in me who uses food to self-soothe *and* punish myself and stuff emotions and try to make myself as unattractive as possible.  I realized after reading the book "get me out of here" that parenting the inner child involves more than just validating, playing with and soothing the hurt child.  It also requires, for me, some firm limits and boundaries... .otherwise Little Harri, who is fairly strong willed, is driving the bus.  My parents had no boundaries with me and my own are still in development.  The ones I set with my parents when i finally moved out were rigid and firm, hard even... .they had to be.  Little Harri needs firm boundaries too, but with a much softer touch.  I've been reading on the parenting board and searching out various parenting threads to get a better feel for the tone to use.  I think I am making progress in being more gentle with myself. 

Kwamina!     I am glad you have a better handle on things and have been able to use tools successfully to help yourself.  I hate to think of a bird singing a sad tune.

Do you feel like something would change for you if you were able to determine any rational reasons explaining your father's behavior?  Would it change your view of him and his abusive behavior towards you and if so how?

No, not really change.  I was just hoping to be able to have a box to put him in to keep things organized and simple in my mind.

Do you perhaps feel that finding a rational explanation for his behavior would in some way also allow you to feel differently about yourself?

Perhaps.  I have been thinking about this question for several days now and I am sure there is some truth.  I am still tied to him in my mind.  I think part of that tie is from hope.  It hit me today, after reading lots of threads on the co-parenting board here and the legal board, that I have been hoping that I could attribute my lack of love and how I used to hate him and find him so repulsive to parental alienation (at last in part).  I wanted to be able to say that I had a good father, even if that realization came far too late to change the relationship we had.  I can see he had some good qualities but not enough to make up for the bad... .and as much as my mother did use PA on my brother and I, I can't use that as a defense for him.  I once wrote in a thread here that I had a feeling he would have been a pretty decent guy had he not been with my mother for 46 years.  I can't say that with any degree of certainty today and I can see where that statement was a reflection of my hope rather than truth.

I had no idea I was still holding on hope. 

[Kwamina]

I once wrote in a thread here that I had a feeling he would have been a pretty decent guy had he not been with my mother for 46 years.  I can't say that with any degree of certainty today and I can see where that statement was a reflection of my hope rather than truth.

I had no idea I was still holding on hope.  

I'm gonna quote a very wise person here (Turkish!):

"There will always be hope, because it's the one thing that men haven't figured out how to kill yet." I forget where I came across this quote years ago...

We can choose to hope, or we can choose to die a little each day based upon the ghosts of the past, which are dead, but can still haunt us. We have free will to change or not. The power lies within us.

Holding on to hope is sometimes all we have to help us get through difficult periods. No matter what he did, and I know he did a lot to you, he is also still your father and I think it's only natural for children to want to view their parents in a positive light. Would you perhaps say that you holding on to this hope about your father's character, was a coping mechanism of yours to help you survive those difficult years with your parents?

You have now come to a point where you're starting to really see your father for who he is and was, almost like seeing him with new eyes. This involves letting go of the 'fantasy' parent he never was but that you nonetheless might still have longed for all those years. Accepting the reality of who your father is and has been, isn't an easy thing to do and does indeed also come down to accepting that certain truths you held about him don't match up to reality as you're now able to see it.