So completely confused 2: Electric Boogaloo

[TheRiddler]

Every word and every action of their partner is increasingly scrutinized through this lens of mistrust.  Meanwhile, there is this growing feeling that they are losing themselves.  That they are ceasing to exist in someone else, and there are desperate attempts to assert independence and self-sufficiency.  Eventually, it often reaches a point where the pwBPD can no longer stand the overwhelming emotions their partner is triggering, and they leave.

Hey cosmonaut: This is what confuses me.  She said, in her letter, that when I didn't move in together and we didn't get engaged (my inability to read minds has always been my downfall), she slowly started to lose interest in the relationship until it was gone / who knows what.  My situation doesn't quite fit with what you describe, and I fear it's all my fault for not being on the same page.

[cosmonaut]

What I hope you can understand is that your ex is mentally ill.  This isn't her fault, but she is not capable of loving you in a healthy, mature way.  She may be telling the truth that she associates the lack of engagement or moving in together with rejection and abandonment.  This is NOT your fault.   You must understand that she has extremely low self esteem and profound self hatred.  She feels defective.  And she believes deep down that she is unworthy of love.  She believes to her very core that she will always be abandoned.  So, she is constantly on the lookout for what she knows is coming and this provokes tremendous anxiety and mistrust.  The longer your relationship goes on, the more this fear grows and she is hypervigilant to any sign she interprets as rejection.  Note that I used the word interpret.  It does not matter if you ever intended to leave her or reject her; if she interprets it as such then she is going to be triggered.  The awful thing is that you really can't anticipate what she will see as rejection, because she is capable of reading it into almost anything.  If it wasn't the engagement, it would have been something else.  Please understand that this is not your fault.   You did not cause this.  Maybe you feel you made some mistakes, but they were innocent mistakes, and in most relationships could be fairly easily resolved.  Forgive yourself.  You tried to love someone as best you could, but who tragically feels incapable of being loved.

I think you may benefit from spending some time analyzing why you want to believe this is your fault.  Could it be that by being your fault you have the power to fix it?  I hope you will be able to accept that there is nothing you could have done, because this truly isn't your fault.  This is the disorder.  It is not you.  Truly.  I know that is very hard to accept, because it does mean we can't fix the relationship.  But that is the truth.  Your ex has problems that only she can resolve.  And I pray very sincerely that she will, because she is suffering too.  The disorder is the villain here.  Not you!

[TheRiddler]

She's undiagnosed, so unfortunately that leaves a lot of doubt in my mind that she is pwBPD.  That's why I blame myself for everything.  My psychiatrist said she's positive and my therapist thought all of the signs were there.  But I just keep thinking that it's all my fault.  I read that there are people who use the existence of the disorder as an excuse for why a relationship's fallen apart and I automatically think I'm being one of those people.  I need the truth in things, even if I suffer because of it. 

I'd like to try to reach out to her, but I'm hesitant for the same reason you're hesitant... and you've been waiting almost a year.  That scares the hell out of me. 

[Copperfox]

She's undiagnosed, so unfortunately that leaves a lot of doubt in my mind that she is pwBPD.  That's why I blame myself for everything.  My psychiatrist said she's positive and my therapist thought all of the signs were there.  But I just keep thinking that it's all my fault.  I read that there are people who use the existence of the disorder as an excuse for why a relationship's fallen apart and I automatically think I'm being one of those people.  I need the truth in things, even if I suffer because of it. 

BPD is just a label, and the label doesn't really matter.  Focus on the the behaviors.  If there were BPD traits, enough that even two professional mental health practicioners suspect it, then that's what counts.  Were those behaviors really appropriate for a sustainable long term relationship?

Maybe if you'd done some things differently, you could have lasted a little longer.  But the end result likely would have been the same.  And all you'd have to show for it would be wasted time.

PwBPD are like a puzzle to us ... .it's our understanding driven nature to try to figure it out.

[cosmonaut]

I understand.  The uncertainty can add to the confusion as to what happened.  It is a dizzying experience.  I remember those last few months just being head spinning, trying to understand what was going on and not knowing what to do since it seemed like everything I did made things worse.  My ex is not diagnosed either.  I actually didn't know anything about BPD before she left me.  It sounds like you are in the same boat.  Ultimately, diagnosis doesn't mean much.  It's just a label and even some professionals refuse to use it because of the stigma it carries.  So, they will diagnose something else like bipolar disorder.  Here, we usually accept that if our loved one exhibits traits of BPD, we work under the assumption that they have BPD.  BPD is a spectrum disorder, and it manifests in many different ways.  My ex is certainly not a classic case, but I am still very confident that she suffers from BPD.  If you feel that your ex fits much of the pattern of BPD, I think it makes sense to proceed as such.

I know you want to contact her.  I want to contact my ex more than I can stand.  But I am holding myself back.  I would recommend that you do the same.  We have to remember that we are triggers for them.  We have to be patient, and if we love them we will be patient.  They need to heal, and we need to heal.

Yes, it has been over a year, and I don't know when or even if we will speak to each other again.  There is no way to know how long your own ex may want to avoid you.  It might be a few weeks, a few months, or even years.  An outside chance she may never.  The thing to remember is that you can't control this timetable, and forcing the issue is only going to backfire.  We must be patient.  I would try and prepare yourself that it will likely be some time before you hear from her.  Spend this time working on you.  This can be a period of significant growth for you.  This experience has probably brought many things to light that were formerly hidden, and we can use this time to address them.  Keep at it.  I'm doing the same.

[TheRiddler]

Thanks guys, that does help.

So what happens if I were to contact her?

I could really use your guys' help on a problem my family, my therapist and I have been trying to solve.  It's complicated, but I'll try to make it simple.  The way she broke up with me, she gave me the impression that she might want to get together in the future.  I understand you can't really listen to anything a pwBPD says according to that Survival Guide.  She said she doesn't want to be in a relationship, she wants to be alone.  I'm obsessing over this to an overwhelming, life-stopping degree because of one thing: Maybe she can't know at the moment, but I just want to know whether I've been written off as someone she'd want to be with in the future.  Is there no way to find this out through asking a simple question?  Have I done something so wrong as to warrant her not wanting to be with me ever again?  I wrestle with this day in and day out, and I'm not able to function very well because of it (as I mentioned in the previous thread, I have pretty severe OCD and sometimes the real world is the only thing that can fix it, not talk therapy or drugs).  I've been trying to think of non confrontational ways to ask the question, both for her and for me.

This is something I'm really, really struggling with, so I hope you guys can help.   Even if she didn't want to be in a relationship anytime soon, just knowing that I'm not out of consideration would mean a lot to me.

[Copperfox]

If she broke up with you, and she really does want to get back with you, then it's up to her to let you know.

She should have to make the effort.  It's on her.  I know it's hard.  But you have to value yourself, you are the prize.  She gave that up, for whatever reason.  Why should she get it back so easy?  Nothing worthwhile comes so easily.  We value the things that are scarce, things that are hard to attain.

By all means, if you really want to talk to her, then no one can stop you from trying.  But let go of the outcome.

[TheRiddler]

Why let go of the outcome?  The words of a pwBPD aren't trustworthy?  That's what I keep reading.

[cosmonaut]

I can tell from your posts how much this is eating you, Riddler.  I'm truly sorry for your pain, because I know this is brutally hard.  You are clearly hurting and I believe you when you say that you are having trouble even functioning.  I was much the same once.  I'm sorry, man.  Things will get easier as time passes and the pain will dull.  Trust in that.

I think that your ex is telling you the truth when she says that she wants to be alone.  Unless you have some reason to suspect otherwise, I would believe her.  I think that she probably does love you, and that leaving you is something that is exceedingly painful for her.  So much so that she doesn't want to deal with it in any way, so she is doing everything she can to wall it off.  And that includes walling you off.  I don't think that she is cutting contact with you because she doesn't care about you.  I think it is exactly the opposite.  I think she cares very, very much.  I think the reasons she is leaving at all is for the same reason: she is overwhelmed by the emotions that you are stirring in her - emotions she would not feel if she did not deeply care about you.  She does care about you.  I believe that.

None of us can know if she will want to continue a relationship with you in the future.  I know you feel you need an answer to that, but I'm afraid there just isn't an easy answer.  Many pwBPD do return to relationships, but not all.  And many that do return are still not in any way capable of a healthy, stable relationship, and things quickly fall apart again.  This cycle can go on and on and on.  Some member here have recycled a dozen times or more.  I would give her the benefit of the doubt about leaving the door open.  She could very well be sincere that she hopes that distance from you can allow her to begin to get her life and her emotions under control, and then she will be in a position to come back to you.  The problem is that without some serious effort and work on her part to address her underlying disorder in therapy, she is certain to be triggered again.  And again.  And again.  And that leaves you both back where you started.  The only way that you two will ever be able to make a relationship work is to spend some part apart working on yourselves.  This is the truth, Riddler.  You have some deep insecurities and anxieties that you will have to resolve yourself, before you will ever be able to be the kind of rock she will need you to be in a relationship.  She does not have the ability to self soothe.  She likely can't handle stress.  These are things that will be critical for her to work on herself, but she will need your help and your stability too.  She can not handle your emotional instability on top of hers.  If you do not have your emotions and fears under control, how can you expect her to be able to do so when she is at such a significant disadvantage?  This time apart can be a very GOOD thing.

Please, hear me on this.  I really am trying to help you.  You need to let her go for right now.  Contacting her at this juncture is going to go badly.  Not only are you a trigger for her, you are in no condition to be a calm, soothing presence currently.  Please try to accept that you need to step back.  Take some deep breaths, and really let it sink in that this is going to last for a while.  Probably not forever, but it is going to last for some time.  I know that this is terrifying for you, but the sooner you can internalize it, the sooner the panic can start to subside.  Ask your therapist for help on this.  You don't have to do it alone.  My T was a huge help in getting me through the stage you are in right now.

Truly, the very best thing you can be doing with this time is working on you.  If she comes back, and you love this woman and are willing to accept that being with her is never going to be easy, then you are going to have to be her rock, my friend.  You are going to have to be her foundation.  You must be able to provide the calm, soothing presence that she can't provide for herself.  You are going to have to be able to suffer the slings and arrows of her ever changing moods.   You will have to be able to stoically weather her pushing you away, and then welcome her back with open arms.  This is going to require you to be one amazingly strong and stable man.  This is what you should be working towards right now.  That's the goal.  And it is a noble goal.  It is one that is worth doing for YOU alone, too.

[TheRiddler]

cosmonaut: your messages are always so well-thought-out, thanks very much.  But she didn't quite wall me off.  I don't know if you remember I was texting to her mom for a while off and on.  Well, one of the last things her mom said to me after N found out about the texting was that, "he can just speak to me."  I fear, because of this, she doesn't love me at all because if she can speak to me I'm causing her no pain and if I'm causing her no pain I'm no longer a love interest, I suppose?  Apologies if that's convoluted, I don't understand this stuff too well, obviously. 

She'd also told her mom that she'd "checked out" of the relationship at some point, which didn't sound very encouraging.  I don't know if this happens to you, cosmonaut, but I get really frustrated trying to correlate BPD thoughts and word use with non thoughts and word use.  Maybe pwBPD can check out just like a non, I don't know.  Either way, all of this sounds scary and irreversible, and if it's not irreversible the solution can't come from me.  (Or maybe "checked out" is just a phrase to explain away the crazy?  I don't think any of her family member know what she has.)

Are there not like BPD communication specialists that can try to act as a medium between two people?   

[Copperfox]

Why let go of the outcome?  The words of a pwBPD aren't trustworthy?  That's what I keep reading.

Because you can't control the outcome.  This is a dance, with two people, two minds, two hearts.   All you can do is be the best version of yourself.

I also agree with everything that Cosmonaut is saying.  Once you've become the trigger, it is better to back off.  Pushing is only going to push her away.

[cosmonaut]

I would not be contacting her mother behind her back anymore.  That is only going to further her shame, her sense of mistrust, and may well end up with you split very black.  She is triggered and you have to give her space.  That includes her family.  Why did she tell her mother "he can just speak to me"?  Well, that sounds more passive aggressive than it sounds like she sincerely wants to speak to you.  She sounds angry, and she has reason.  You violated her boundaries by speaking to her mother.   I understand why you did.  You are hurt, frightened, and confused.  You are looking for answers.  But you still violated her boundaries.   Can you see that?

I can hear very clearly how scared you are that she doesn't love you, but I am telling you that she would not be triggered if she didn't care.  You might want to read the book Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder by Shari Manning.  This was one of the best, most compassionate, most clearly written books I've read that attempts to explain many of the underlying thoughts and feelings that someone with BPD experiences.  I think it may be able to explain far better than I am able how someone with BPD can both love you and not be able to stand being around you.  It all has to do with overwhelming, out of control emotion.

As far as I'm aware there are no such mediums, and I doubt they could succeed anyway due to the nature of the disorder.  The best way to communicate with someone with BPD is to learn about the disorder and the tools to better relate to them (See posts here and here for more details).  Many of these tools, especially validation, can actually be used with anyone to improve communication and trust, but they are particularly important with a BPD loved one.  You may want to start learning about them and practicing them in your life.  I would NOT use them with your ex yet - you really do need to give her space.  Use them and practice them in the rest of your life for now, and they will be available whenever she is ready to communicate again.

Hang in there, Riddler.  This really will get easier.

[TheRiddler]

Thanks, I appreciate the support.

So I don't quite understand (and I do plan to get that book), but in her mind, what would happen if she and I were to speak in person?  It's just tough to wrap my head around.  There's no reasoning or attempting to communicate about the relationship?  It's just odd, because when a "normal" relationship breaks down there's at least a decent chance of getting it going again with communication and change, but this just seems so completely opposite that.

[Grey Kitty]

Why let go of the outcome?  The words of a pwBPD aren't trustworthy?  That's what I keep reading.

The nature of it is not that she isn't trustworthy. (She may not be trustworthy either though.) It is that she isn't consistent.

She can say one thing with absolute sincerity, because she is feeling a certain way, and her feelings become facts to her, past, present, and future.

And five minutes later, she will be feeling something different, and will adjust facts (past present, and future) to match her new feelings.

[cosmonaut]

Thanks, I appreciate the support.

So I don't quite understand (and I do plan to get that book), but in her mind, what would happen if she and I were to speak in person?  It's just tough to wrap my head around.  There's no reasoning or attempting to communicate about the relationship?  It's just odd, because when a "normal" relationship breaks down there's at least a decent chance of getting it going again with communication and change, but this just seems so completely opposite that.

It is indeed not a normal relationship, and that does make it difficult to understand.  Spend some time reading up about BPD on this site, and check out that book.  I think it will help you to have a better insight into what she might be thinking.  She is not likely to see you in person at all, and that is to protect herself.  You are a trigger for her, and she is utilizing the only coping mechanisms she has to deal with the overwhelming emotion.  She is hiding from you, and she will only come out when she feels it is safe to do so.  Trying to communicate with her before then is likely to only push her further away.

[TheRiddler]

I think you're right, I think she does still love me (as she's said (but that gets tricky because apparently we're not supposed to believe what a pwBPD says)).

So there's no way to phrase a question to her trying to figure out whether I'm still in the running as a potential partner in the future?  If I asked her something along those lines, I couldn't trust her words, or is the worry the words might not be accurate to her true feelings?  I don't get it.  I appreciate the patience, guys.  I'm just trying to get my head in a position of relative comfort so I can do other things.

[TheRiddler]

Sorry for the double, couldn't modify.  Is there any truth to this guy? www.reignitethefire.net/will-BPD-ex-come-back/

[Grey Kitty]

I think you're right, I think she does still love me (as she's said (but that gets tricky because apparently we're not supposed to believe what a pwBPD says)).

So there's no way to phrase a question to her trying to figure out whether I'm still in the running as a potential partner in the future? 

It is a subtle point, but I wouldn't say that you shouldn't believe what a pwBPD says... .in most cases, they are pretty truthful.

You cannot ask a blind person what color your shirt is and get a helpful answer. Even if they are truthful. Nor would you get a helpful answer if the person could see, but had some weird magical glasses that kept changing the colors they saw to random different colors all the time.


The issue is whether they have any idea or understanding what they will feel in the future. They just don't get that. They are feeling something NOW. They believe that what they are feeling NOW is the way that they always felt and always will feel, and they believe that history and reality match this feeling, present, past, and future.

And like all humans, their feelings do shift. Unlike the rest of us, their entire reality turns on a dime with it.

So when she says she will love you forever, she believes it.

And when she says she hates you and never wants to see you again and that you destroyed her life, she believes it too.

That these too moments were 10 minutes apart doesn't seem to matter to her. Both of them are forever. And they may go back and forth every day for a month!

Here's the tough part. ALL of it is her true feelings.

Do you want to be around somebody with true feelings like that or not?

[Copperfox]

And like all humans, their feelings do shift. Unlike the rest of us, their entire reality turns on a dime with it.

So true ... .well said

[TheRiddler]

So there's no way to just be friends and try to take it slow, and see if things can be fixed?  Is there any truth to that "Reignite the Fire" guy I posted below?

[Copperfox]

So there's no way to just be friends and try to take it slow, and see if things can be fixed?  Is there any truth to that "Reignite the Fire" guy I posted below?

There may be some truth to the link you posted, in some cases.  But pwBPD are humans, not robots.  They are not all the same, and not everything will work the same way in every case.  I wouldn't get any false hope from a single internet posting.

Being friends with an ex usually takes a level of emotional maturity, in many cases with pwBPD they may not have that, or at least not consistently.  One of the characteristics is a poor sense of boundaries.  That can make friendships tricky.  You of course would need to decide about the level of emotional maturity of your ex for yourself.

[TheRiddler]

I'm not getting false hope from him.  In fact, I was concerned because he says in one of his posts that he was dating a girl with BPD and he tried to push her toward a relationship too quickly so she broke up with him, but married the next guy that came along.  I'm worried that there was a "window" I had to work within and I acted too slowly so there won't be another chance.  I doubt it's as mechanical as that, but that's how it feels. 


I realize they're not robots, that's why it's disconcerting to see posts making it seem as though it's not a person who has the capability to think logically.  I just want to know if she thinks we're just plain incompatible, or if she actually doesn't want to be in a relationship.  And apparently I can't ask her for this information lest I trigger her more, so I'm not sure what to do.  Ironically, I find myself unable to focus on myself until I have a bit more information about this and I'm not sure what to do.  Be sensitive with your replies, please.

[cosmonaut]

I would take that Reignite the Fire guy with a mountain of salt.  I took a brief look at the site and it's just an infomercial for his book.  He is not trying to help you.  He's trying to sell you something.  He has an agenda.  Personally, I wouldn't listen to a thing he says.  He is targeting an audience that is in a very vulnerable state and trying to extract money from their misery.  There are actual objective sources of information on BPD.  You could read some books by James Masterson for a very clinical perspective without him trying to sell you something.  Or you could read some books by Marsha Lineham, who is in some ways an advocate for pwBPD, but is a highly respected authority on the disorder, none-the-less.  I would place exactly zero trust in some guy on the internet trying to sell you his dating scheme.

I realize they're not robots, that's why it's disconcerting to see posts making it seem as though it's not a person who has the capability to think logically.  I just want to know if she thinks we're just plain incompatible, or if she actually doesn't want to be in a relationship.  And apparently I can't ask her for this information lest I trigger her more, so I'm not sure what to do.  Ironically, I find myself unable to focus on myself until I have a bit more information about this and I'm not sure what to do.  Be sensitive with your replies, please.

I think what you really need to decide, Riddler, is whether or not you are willing to accept that your ex has a serious disorder that impacts her ability to form a healthy relationship with you.  If she is indeed BPD, you are asking her for something that she can't provide.   She can't answer you because she both loves you and hates you.  She wants to be with you and she wants to run from you.  Are you able to accept that?

[Grey Kitty]

So there's no way to just be friends and try to take it slow, and see if things can be fixed?

I'm not a fan of saying never. So I won't.

I will describe what you are up against, though:

If you try to 'just be friends' with her, she will still attempt boundary busting behavior and the push-pull dynamics of a BPD romance. Just as bad as she did in a romantic relationship with you.

So you will need rock-solid boundaries to be 'friends' with her. And even if you do... .you will likely have periods of emotional intimacy with her that would look like an emotional affair. So if you do this... .really wanting to be friends, but get on with your life... .and find a new girlfriend, your new girlfriend will probably have VERY GOOD reasons to be horribly jealous of your ex.

And if you were to try to do that are you trying to be friends to get her back? Or trying to be friends because you want to be friends with her? They are NOT the same, and it matters.

[TheRiddler]

I was thinking being friends to get back together with her, eventually.  I didn't want it to be an underhanded thing, though.

[TheRiddler]

And I'm still learning the terminology and such, would you mind explaining the boundary busting behavior you're talking about in both cases?

[Grey Kitty]

Did your relationship start up 10X as fast as a healthy one did, with her pulling you into emotional intimacy fast and hard? And then move on rapidly to behaviors that were controlling and manipulative.

That's the sort of boundary busting stuff I'm talking about. I know several members who have tried downgrading a romantic relationship, and most of them didn't go well. If I can think of anybody who did something of the sort, they were somebody who had VERY good boundary skills.

The push-pull is how you will be chased after... .then pushed away... .then chased after... .then pushed away. Each time as if it had always been that way, with no awareness of any disconnect on her part.

... .For example, if you are friends with her... .nothing underhanded... .nothing romantic... .and she realizes you actually went out on a date with another woman, expect fireworks.

[TheRiddler]

This is what leads me to believe she's probably not BPD... I don't recall too much pushing and pulling in the relationship, aside from what I mentioned with us having an argument, me trying to leave to escape the argument, and her threatening that we'd break up if I left.  I don't know if that's quite the same thing.

And I haven't been in what I'd call a healthy relationship so my measure of how fast one should proceed probably isn't the most accurate.  It did seem to move pretty quickly though, particularly sex, and as I've mentioned before, she spoke of moving in together and marriage fairly early on (but my memory is awful so I'm not sure if it was early on enough to raise any red flags).

That's interesting what you're saying about dating someone else and her reaction, though; I just can't picture there really being fireworks.  She was usually more passive aggressive in the way she handled things... at least that's what I'm coming to realize through my reading.  More of a quiet "waif" than the typical object-throwing borderline. 

[Grey Kitty]

If she was passive-aggressive instead of raging when you are together, I wouldn't expect her to start raging. I would expect her to continue being passive-aggressive as a friend.

Honestly... .figuring whether she was BPD or which flavor of BPD isn't going to help you very much.

Deciding if you want somebody who treats you that way in your life is what will help you.

[jo19854]

A fellow member of this site adviced me to read this thread, i am very grateful for that.

Hi Riddler, i can so relate to your situation.

I am also struggling about writing or not, emailing or not. Is it BPD or not (It took me a while to figure out that it probably is, and if not... what's the diff, it's the behaviour that counts)

To contact her is a choice and you will not know the outcome. It's the constant pressure on us, our brain is programmed for getting answers, it's part of our human survival mode.

One moment i think "NO", the other moment i think "YES".

It's the fear of the unknown that haunts us.

There will be no guarantees in case you contact her. It's a choice, a gamble what it will bring. And even if it brings something bad than you might be disappointed and ask yourself "is this the truth". It's a dangerous circle.

If you read my profile you can see how bizarre things can go. I didnt hear from her for more than a year. The people on the board are great in describing what we are all dealing with. Keep reading.

I am training myself more and more in accepting the fact that i am powerless and dealing with something that only she can start to change. She leaves as if I, my family and her dog never exsisted, married and all in a foreign country.

I know how you feel. In case you contact her be carefull. I was adviced to study S.E.T. It made a lot of sense to me.

After reading all the postings, at this moment i say to myself "NO"- I will not contact her (and stopped doing so in october last year by the way)