So completely confused 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

After reading all the postings, at this moment i say to myself "NO"- I will not contact her (and stopped doing so in october last year by the way)

Riddler , I posted yesterday "NO"and now I ask myself "what shall I do?"

One thing i know, my wife treats me very bad. cruel and ungrateful, and even not being here she has control over me.

That has to stop, so I decided that I will do what I think I need to do at that moment in time, whatever the outcome.

But whatever you do, do it for yourself. and never blame yourself afterwards that you should have done something else.

Hope this makes sense

[jo19854]

After reading all the postings, at this moment i say to myself "NO"- I will not contact her (and stopped doing so in october last year by the way)

Riddler , I posted yesterday "NO"and now I ask myself "what shall I do?"

One thing i know, my wife treats me very bad. cruel and ungrateful, and even not being here she has control over me.

That has to stop, so I decided that I will do what I think I need to do at that moment in time, whatever the outcome.

But whatever you do, do it for yourself. and never blame yourself afterwards that you should have done something else.

Hope this makes sense

[TheRiddler]

It's such an odd position to be put in.

1.) she's pwBPD: I contact her and risk pushing her farther away, or getting unsatisfying wishy-washy answers

2.) she's not pwBPD: I contact her and I risk appearing needy because I didn't allow her to contact me first (as per some random break up rule)

I know there's no certain answer as to our future, but I'd like a way to ask a question to her that wouldn't violate the 2 bullet points above.  I'm just drowning in this crap and I'm sick of it.  If I didn't have OCD, I wouldn't be caught on this like I am, and unfortunately the way my mind works, I need some kind of external validation to shut it off.  My therapist suggested trying to get her in an appointment with me to talk about some of this stuff so I could get some answers, but I doubt she'd go for that.

Anybody have any ideas, even crazy ones?

[cosmonaut]

Maybe you need to ask her, Riddler.  Maybe that will give you the answers you need.  If she is able to tell you plainly, then you have your answer.  If she ignores you or rages at you, well then that tells you something too.  Maybe you should ask.

What do you think?

[TheRiddler]

cosmo:

Maybe I do, yeah.  I'm not in a mental place to take a bad answer, though, at the moment.  And that makes it doubly tough because I always hear on these "Get Her Back" sites that there's a limited window and she's moving on and you need to do things at the right time in the right order... it just sounds ridiculous, yet I put some kind of stock in it because I crave order in this. 

What do you think about that?  Are you under the impression your girl would want to be back together if you spoke to her or do you think she'd have no interest? 

I just think, is there a chance that there isn't some kooky rule that when they go away they aren't coming back unless they do it of their own accord.  Maybe there's some level of reason, there; but of course, you guys seem to have far more knowledge on the subject than I do.


jo19854: So I don't understand, your lady came back after a year?  And you're married, right?  How long were you together before she left this last time? 

[cosmonaut]

I really wouldn't put any stock whatsoever in those "Get Her Back" websites.  You may be doing more harm than good to yourself by reading those.  There is no system to win back anyone - BPD or not.  Every relationship is unique, and every break up is unique.  Please try not to worry about there being some window on getting her back.  That's objectively false.  There are couples all the time that separate and then for whatever reason decide to give things another try.  That can be weeks, months, or years later.   Sometimes things work out the next time around and sometimes not.   Every situation is unique and no one has ever been able to figure out a catch all system.  There are far, far too many variables.  BPD relationships follow these same rules, even if there are considerable more complexities.

I simply don't know about my ex anymore than anyone can say what will happen with your ex.  My feelings are that there is indeed the possibility, but it is only a possibility.  I am encouraged that she told me the truth about her reasons for leaving, that she is apparently indeed working on herself, and that she hasn't been dating.  That said, she has significant problems and they go considerably beyond just BPD.  She has an awful lot to work through and I have no way of knowing how long that might take her, or if she will ever feel ready for another relationship.  I also don't fully know how she feels about me.  I want to believe that she really did deeply love me, and that is what my gut says, but I just don't know.  She is a waif that is in the process of becoming a hermit.  Those are just labels, and things are far more complex than that, but it helps to communicate some of the dynamics that are at work.   Even when I met her, she was not a seductress.  She was not looking to jump into a relationship.  She told me that she was damaged goods and didn't think she would ever be with anyone again.   While we definitely had an intense connection and there was a strong mutual attraction, it took me quite a while - many months - of pursuing her before we become a couple.   She is not your "typical" pwBPD.  As I have said, every pwBPD is unique and every relationship is unique.  So for now, I wait.  My heart is still hers and that has not changed at all.  I do still want to give things another try.  Very much.  But I must be patient.   She needs space to work on herself and I don't want to interfere with that.  She is already digging very deep to face what she is facing.  I don't know that she can deal with the emotion of my return too.  Because I love her, I will give her space.  She has asked me to do so, and I will.  For now, I am working on myself and there is indeed much work to be done there.   I will have to be a much stronger, more stable, more patient man if we are to have a chance of making things work the next time.  I have my own changes to make.

Your ex has to come back of her own accord, Riddler.  This is true of anyone.  My ex too.  Love doesn't mean anything if not freely given.  You can't manipulate or force or buy someone into loving you.  That is not what love is.   Maybe you need to ask her if she would consider coming back some day, but ultimately it will be her decision and you can't force any other outcome.   This is simply the way it is.

[jo19854]

Riddler,

We were together 12 years, married 2

She left a year ago unexpectedly, no goodbey, only a note i found when i came back from work.

In the morning we discussed evening dinner, i got a kiss, a smile on her face.

I have never have heard of her or seen her again, blocked all communication.

She thanked me for everything and wrote i could email her, i never got a reply.

She took a picture of us with her and the keys of the house. That's all.

By the way ; I did send her an email today after 5 months

[TheRiddler]

I'd be interested to hear what she has to say, if you'd be able to share it.

[TheRiddler]

cosmonaut: I'm not talking about manipulation of any kind, I'm talking about knowing where I stand, and finding out in a way that doesn't jeopardize anything.

[Grey Kitty]

cosmonaut: I'm not talking about manipulation of any kind, I'm talking about knowing where I stand, and finding out in a way that doesn't jeopardize anything.

Where do you stand with yourself? That's a lot more important than where you stand with her.

[TheRiddler]

I'm really upset about the way she handled the break up.  She said in her last letter that she didn't want to let me go... she left me under the impression I was going to have an opportunity to genuinely present my side of the case and have an honest chance of staying together.  The fact that she said she was being selfish in doing this... this is pretty clear indication she knew what she was doing, but let me suffer with uncertainty for 2 months regardless.

That's pretty damn awful, and I'll admit that.  She's got lots of issues, but I have issues, too.  I'd just feel regret if she and I couldn't have another go with more open communication.  I understand it's not up to me, but I also understand that there's someone who can say whether there's a real chance in the future and I don't know if I can trust a word she says... not because she's malicious, but possibly because she has an illness... that I'm not sure she has. 

Now I'm going to go and see my therapist tomorrow and talk about the same crap that never goes anywhere.  How I don't know if it's BPD or if she just thought so little of me she wanted to let the relationship die, all of it.  Whether I should text her and what to say.  I can't even talk to her because I'm not in a mental state to take another hit, and if I could I don't know if I could believe her.  I'm not even in a mental state to be back together at the moment, to tell you the truth.

This is a giant, nightmare of a Rubik's cube of unanswered questions that's constantly spinning and I need to get a hold on at least one side or I'm going to keep getting worse. 

[TheRiddler]

I'm sorry Grey Kitty, I misunderstood your question.

To tell you the truth, I'm ashamed and embarrassed.  I feel those were problems that could have been easily dealt with had we been more openly communicative.  I'd like to make contact to see if another chance is in the cards at some point when she's up to dating again.  That's scary to me because I don't know if, like a lot of members have warned me, she'll give me a straight answer or not.  

[Grey Kitty]

To tell you the truth, I'm ashamed and embarrassed.  I feel those were problems that could have been easily dealt with had we been more openly communicative.

You say you feel ashamed and embarrassed. That's a good start.

When you say "we had been more openly communicative", there are two halves to that "we" -- you and her.

Do you wish she had been more communicative?

Do you wish you had communicated better or more openly with her?

Are there specific actions you took (or didn't take) that you regret?

I'd like to make contact to see if another chance is in the cards at some point when she's up to dating again.  That's scary to me because I don't know if, like a lot of members have warned me, she'll give me a straight answer or not. 

Are you saying you want to resume dating her? If so, are there changes in your relationship that you would want or even need for this to work for you?

[TheRiddler]

I do wish she was more communicative, yeah.  I wish she'd told me how much the not moving in and not being engaged (if those were the real reasons) meant to her in clearer terms.  She knew I take my time with things and also don't always clearly understand something unless it's very explicit, so I'm guessing she just didn't care anymore.

I do wish I was more communicative, too.  I wish I'd told her more explicitly that I was planning on getting a place as soon as the latest job I was on was over.  I'd been crazily stressed because of it.

If you check out the original thread I go into more detail, but I tried to do all kinds of things to improve myself and they didn't seem to make much of a difference... I don't think she cared. 

To show you where I'm at, I was just looking at the site linked below and thinking she probably just fell out of love with me and will never see me as a viable partner again. (www.love.allwomenstalk.com/reasons-why-you-should-give-him-another-chance)

Or, she has BPD and she's "triggered" and she's pained to speak to me, even though I've been informed she has no problem talking if I want to talk to her.  Some people do well with ambiguity and can think, "well, it just didn't work out... oh well."  I'm not one of those people.  This has taken over my life, and I need something to happen. 

[Grey Kitty]

Why do you want to chase after her when she is clearly expressing a lack of interest in you?

You really don't know WHY she's not into you.

However her actions (if I read them correctly) are to go away for a couple months saying she'd be resuming... .then to have nothing to do with you pretty much.

Do you want to be with a woman who isn't that into you?

[TheRiddler]

I thought I triggered her and she was really in love with me but couldn't be with me because of the pain it would cause.  You see, it's difficult to take any advice seriously when it differs so drastically from person to person.  I'm assuming she's BPD, but I don't know, and it's difficult to presume she's not because that greatly influences what she'd do.

She didn't say we'd be resuming, she said we'd have a discussion.  I go through all of that in the previous thread.

And I want something to do with her because I love her.  She said she loves me.  I think we had some poor communication, but I don't think the problems in our relationship are anything that couldn't be resolved fairly easily.  I don't know she won't ever want anything to do with me again, I just know she doesn't want a relationship right now, with anyone.  I've been told by a number of people it seems her behavior is best explained by BPD, but despite this, I would give us another chance if she'd have me.  I don't know if she would have me, and I don't know how to find out because if she's BPD I don't know if I'll be able to trust her answer. 

I could be wrong, but after quite a bit of reading it seems not all people who get together from a breakup do it by just hoping someone will come back to them.  It can take some effort, but I'm not sure if it's worth putting in that effort.

[Grey Kitty]

I agree with your assessment that good communications would have helped and possibly saved your relationship.

Do you think she is capable of good communications with you?

[TheRiddler]

I think she is, yeah.  I think she needs to feel more comfortable voicing her opinion around me, and being more empathetic to others' opinions is something I'm working on.

I had an idea and I'd appreciate your guys' advice.  I was thinking of asking the following:

"You said we may get together in the future.  Did you mean that?"  (I'm up to wording suggestions)

This uses her words, and feels less harmful to me than anything else I've been thinking of for this ridiculous problem.

She did say that she needed to be alone.  She prided herself on her honesty, but then I hear people around here and elsewhere saying, "borderlines only lie when they speak" and other stuff, so it's disheartening to know what to do in a situation that requires words.

Maybe I should let some more time pass before asking, or maybe I need to strike while the iron is hot... I don't know.  Online, you can find an opinion to support any idea you come up with so it's tough to be comfortable with any direction.

[Grey Kitty]

I think she is, yeah.  I think she needs to feel more comfortable voicing her opinion around me, and being more empathetic to others' opinions is something I'm working on.

Uhm, I asked you if you thought she was capable of good communications with you. This sounds like an acknowledgement that she has a problem, with a vague hope that she could improve.

Has she given you reason to believe she will do better in the future?

Do you believe that you have better tools now than you did before, and can cover enough of the gap on your side without her making changes?

My suggestion:

"What did you mean when you said we might get together in the future?"

It doesn't put her on the defensive as much--it is asking for clarification.


BTW... .the lesson *I* am learning right now may be the one you need... .or it may not, but I'll put it out there very directly: I am getting a mixed message from my wife. Have been for a while. I'm learning to not expect her to give me a clear message and good closure ending things. I'm choosing to believe that the mixed message is exactly where she's at, what she feels, and what she means.

And I'm drawing my own conclusion from that. I'm worth being in a relationship with somebody who is 100% clear that they want to be with me. A big mix of "yes on this, no on that" isn't good enough for me today.

I'm believing the mixed message... .and saying "No".

If your situation is similar... .I'd encourage you to believe the mixed message... .and decide whether your answer is "Yes", "No", "Maybe", or "I'll wait for you to decide", or something else.

[TheRiddler]

That's a much better phrasing, thank you.  I don't know the best time to ask, though.  I don't think I want to initiate contact for a while, and even if she were to contact me I don't think I'd respond at the moment.  But maybe I should?  I'm sure you can see the confusion. 

And I think that might be pretty close to what I need, yeah, but I can't tell for sure because I haven't heard from her lately to know if she's mixed.  I might ask her and she may say "no" before I get the question out.

[TheRiddler]

So in not too long it'll be about 2 months since I last contacted her directly.  I'm feeling quite a bit better than I did before, and in no small part to your guys' help.  I had my therapist get in touch with an old colleague of hers that worked directly with Marsha Linnehan, and this colleague is confident N is a pwBPD.  So that's really increased my confidence and unburdened me from the pain I was feeling.

With all of this in mind, even thinking quite a bit more clearly than I have been, I still would give her one more chance if there was a chance to be had.  I don't know how to go about finding out if there is... it seems the very act of breaking NC to speak to her could hurt my chances. 

So what do you guys think?  I'm thinking I should just continue to let time pass and become stronger.  I heard what you said cosmo, about there being no time limit and all of that, and I respect it, but I can't help but feel there's an hourglass of opportunity slowly draining away and if I wait too long there won't be any chance at all.  I suppose it'd be nice to have a better grasp of what factors go into determining how likely it is that we could be together.  I fear she's becoming indifferent.  I am as well, truth be told... she now feels more optional to me than necessary.  But I fear with her disorder, she doesn't have that luxury... I'm either on or off like a switch, not a choice she can make.

[TheRiddler]

If I could get some feedback on the last post, I'd appreciate it.

And I have a couple of new thoughts to share:

I can't shake the feeling that whatever she wrote in her last letter, everything came down to the fact that I left that last night when I didn't want to get her sick.  I feel that if I'd stayed, everything would have been fine (or as fine as it could have been).  She'd told me if I ever left at night/during an argument we'd need to take a break, but she also let me leave one time before without any repercussions (that I know of), so it's tough to know.

Another thing I'm encountering is how frustrating it is to hear love songs about typical relationships (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBKx8PyE5qQ, for example), and feeling that our relationship went through the normal course a relationship when that couldn't be further from the truth.  I guess I'm trying to say that experiencing the reality of the relationship, particularly when I knew nothing of BPD, and looking back on it with what I know now, it's easy to think what you're experiencing is just a normal course of events everyone goes through.  Songs like this get me a little angry, to tell you the truth, because it makes me feel as though I did something wrong, and on top of that there was someone who thought so little of our relationship that she wouldn't help me fix it.  That last sentence could be an incorrect interpretation of the thought processes behind BPD, but I'm doing the best I can.

[Grey Kitty]

With all of this in mind, even thinking quite a bit more clearly than I have been, I still would give her one more chance if there was a chance to be had.  I don't know how to go about finding out if there is... it seems the very act of breaking NC to speak to her could hurt my chances.

I hear that you are afraid of something... .but you don't sound quite clear on how it would work or happen.

My take is that your ?BPDexgf is either capable of trying to have a relationship with you that is healthy enough for you to want it... .or she isn't capable.

If telling her that you care about her and want to try again "scares her off", then that is a clear sign that she isn't capable.

So if you want to reach out to her one more time, go for it. Keep your words about you, and keep anything about her to an open question, rather than a statement about what she is doing/thinking/feeling.

I think the biggest risk is that she will reject you again, either by directly stating her rejection, or by just ignoring you when you reach out. The first seems clearer (and thus better) than your current situation, and the second seems no different from your current situation. So I don't see what you have to lose that way either.

Can YOU identify what you are most afraid of?

Another thing I'm encountering is how frustrating it is to hear love songs about typical relationships.

Popular culture (love songs, romantic comedies, breakup songs, 50 shades of grey, etc., etc.) usually shows dramatic and unhealthy versions of relationships, falling in love, breaking up, you name it. A huge number of love songs express a feeling of being possessive, codependent, or enmeshed to me. The ones that sound healthy to me are rare!

[Mutt]

The thread has reached it's post limit and is locked. It's a worthwhile topic and a new and similar topic of discussion is welcomed.