New Beginnings & Boundaries...

[MaroonLiquid]

Uhm... .I meant something relating to the parental alienation.

Yeah, I know... .Thought I'd take a shot in the dark!   

How has the last time alone with her gone? How long has it lasted without dysregulation, attacks, blaming, etc.?

The other night wasn't great... .Overall, much better than it was the first couple of months... .Sometimes lasting a few weeks.  Last night I got a text from her after our game:

     Your behavior on the field tonight was ridiculous! What happened to self-control, grace, mercy and     

     encouragement? The tantrum you threw was embarrassing! Do you see any other coach out there acting like

     you do? You've lost touch with what a coach is supposed to do. When you act like that, your girls give up. It's

     no longer about playing their best, it's about playing to keep you from getting mad and that's where the

     errors run rampant. You are the only person responsible for this loss tonight.

My response:

     I can tell that you are disappointed in me.  I can see how my frustration affected the girls.  I am disappointed

     in myself.  I admit I got frustrated and didn't show a whole lot of grace tonight.  No excuses from me.  I

     should have handled it better.  Thank you for talking to me about it.  I appreciate you.  I will talk to them on

     Friday at practice.   

In some ways, she was right, and know I am ultimately responsible for our teams play, but has been a while that she actually has had something nice/loving to say to me (last time was right before the accident that led us to getting other vehicles, and on a more regular basis was during the holidays and when I was taking care of her when she was sick about a month ago). 

To actually answer your question about parental alienation... .How about spending time all together (not necessarily in a romantic way, but rather a family way)... .We have talked about it (going to a park and fishing, etc), but haven't done it due to her dysregulations and ST's... .

I found out this morning why my wife has been pissed since the car deal got completed.  She didn't have the money to put down and had to take the 16% interest loan she signed off on to take the car off the lot.  I can understand her not being happy about having to do that, but it isn't my fault... .I told her to look at a new car since our credit union finances 100% on them and she chose not to... .Oh well... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Grey Kitty]

To actually answer your question about parental alienation... .How about spending time all together (not necessarily in a romantic way, but rather a family way)... .We have talked about it (going to a park and fishing, etc), but haven't done it due to her dysregulations and ST's... .

I found out this morning why my wife has been pissed since the car deal got completed.  She didn't have the money to put down and had to take the 16% interest loan she signed off on to take the car off the lot.  I can understand her not being happy about having to do that, but it isn't my fault... .I told her to look at a new car since our credit union finances 100% on them and she chose not to... .Oh well... .

Uhm... .you aren't making a good case for asking to spend 'alone time' with her.

It would be fun to spend time just with the image you have in your mind of who your wife could be / was. However you seem to be making a go pretty good case for NOT spending time alone with your wife. Wait until you can have civil text/email conversations, and civil public interactions like at softball before you ask to spend time with your wife... .AS SHE IS TODAY.

OTOH, asking to spend time with her and the kids sounds like a better idea... .but if you cannot even negotiate that with her... .Well... .I dunno.

Waiting 'till she isn't pissed about "X" doesn't help--she will find a way to be pissed about "Y" next.

[MaroonLiquid]

Uhm... .you aren't making a good case for asking to spend 'alone time' with her.

It would be fun to spend time just with the image you have in your mind of... .your wife... .

I try to remember the good things from keeping my mind from going to a bad place... .

However you seem to be making a go pretty good case for NOT spending time alone with your wife. Wait until you can have civil text/email conversations, and civil public interactions like at softball before you ask to spend time with your wife... .AS SHE IS TODAY.

Yeah... .our conversations and civil interactions for the most part lately have been better but she doesn't bring much good to the table at the moment in my life... .I still believe she will, but not as of this moment... .

OTOH, asking to spend time with her and the kids sounds like a better idea... .but if you cannot even negotiate that with her... .Well... .I dunno.

True dat... .

Waiting 'till she isn't pissed about "X" doesn't help--she will find a way to be pissed about "Y" next.

Not the first person who has told me this... .Do they remember/dwell on ANYTHING positive when they are like this?  How long has it been since your wife said anything nice/romantic, sincerely, to you?  Mine has done it in moments, but I don't remember the last time my wife called or texted and just said (out of the blue), "Hey, I'm just thinking about you and I miss you, miss spending time together, etc." 

[Grey Kitty]

Not the first person who has told me this... .Do they remember/dwell on ANYTHING positive when they are like this?  How long has it been since your wife said anything nice/romantic, sincerely, to you?

My point is not that you should give up on your marriage... .that your wife never did anything positive.

My point is that her recent actions sound pretty consistently negative toward you.

My suggestion is to wait for a change of attitude with her, accepting that she is in the mood she's in right now... .and DON'T use memories of better times to set yourself up for a miserable failure.

As for my wife? She's not abusive at all. Frequently sweet and lovey. And doesn't want to participate in a marriage with me, by her actions or her words. Sigh. I'm the one limiting contact with her.

[MaroonLiquid]

Not the first person who has told me this... .Do they remember/dwell on ANYTHING positive when they are like this?  How long has it been since your wife said anything nice/romantic, sincerely, to you?

My point is not that you should give up on your marriage... .that your wife never did anything positive.

My point is that her recent actions sound pretty consistently negative toward you.

My suggestion is to wait for a change of attitude with her, accepting that she is in the mood she's in right now... .and DON'T use memories of better times to set yourself up for a miserable failure.

As for my wife? She's not abusive at all. Frequently sweet and lovey. And doesn't want to participate in a marriage with me, by her actions or her words. Sigh. I'm the one limiting contact with her.

Yeah, her attitude has been consistently negative toward me.  We have texted more today, but been very light and about the kids.  I recognize and accept that is where she is and why I have stepped back from the day to day melodrama.  It's actually been nice, even though I do miss her.

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, her attitude has been consistently negative toward me.  We have texted more today, but been very light and about the kids.  I recognize and accept that is where she is and why I have stepped back from the day to day melodrama.  It's actually been nice, even though I do miss her.

Protecting yourself from the daily melodrama is excellent. Glad you are enjoying the fruits of that effort on your part!

  Letting yourself feel that you are missing her is good for you too. The feelings are real, and they matter to you. (And if you try to ignore/stuff/argue with them, it won't help anything!)

This feeling of missing her doesn't mean that if you invite her for a 'date night' tomorrow you will get what you are missing.

 It isn't an easy realization to process.

[MaroonLiquid]

Protecting yourself from the daily melodrama is excellent. Glad you are enjoying the fruits of that effort on your part!

I've adapted.  At first I hated being without her and the kids.  I didn't know what to do.  Now, I have been able to do things for me, and it has given me a lot more confidence.

  Letting yourself feel that you are missing her is good for you too. The feelings are real, and they matter to you. (And if you try to ignore/stuff/argue with them, it won't help anything!)

This feeling of missing her doesn't mean that if you invite her for a 'date night' tomorrow you will get what you are missing.

 It isn't an easy realization to process.

No, it's not.  The hardest thing for me still is trying understand how any mother would want to cut out of their life someone who loves them deeply and wants to care for them.  :)eep down, I know that is not what she wants, which is sad.  I know I shouldn't try and understand those things because they are not reasonable or normal, but my mind doesn't work that way.  It wants to figure stuff out.  I don't think about it nearly as much, nor let it consume me because I know that I can't do anything about it.  Just still something I struggle with.  

At times, I do think about the days that she would ask if there was anything I needed, asked how I was doing, texted to tell me she loves me, and made our r/s a priority.  I enjoyed our Friday lunches together as it was just us as a couple.  I do think she truly cared on that level until 8 months ago, despite her illness at times.  I do think going through menopause made her illness go over the top.  

I find myself hoping she calls/texts and when she does, it makes me happy (I feel pathetic just typing that).  The truth is, I want a r/s where the r/s (after God) between us is first again and is a priority.  It's still the strangest feeling when you have been had such a deep connection with someone for so long, sharing visions for a future, raising children together, and now, because of their illness, they are a stranger.  

She sent me a picture on text yesterday (from Facebook) and it said, "Once you start to heal and pull away from your narcissistic parent, they will see this as a threat.  They may accuse you of being manipulated by someone else.  "Who has put these crazy ideas in your head?"  This is actually their fear, from the realization that they are losing their control of you."  Very strange, and not sure it was intended for me... .

[formflier]

  I know I shouldn't try and understand those things because they are not reasonable or normal, but my mind doesn't work that way.  It wants to figure stuff out.  I don't think about it nearly as much, nor let it consume me because I know that I can't do anything about it.  Just still something I struggle with.    visions for a future, raising children together, and now, because of their illness, they are a stranger. 

If you can focus this on continuing to learn and understand more about the disorder... .less about her... .less about you... .that is most likely going to be productive.

I still sometimes think back to things I "messed up"... .or did before I learned about tools and started doing things "right".  That thinking is generally not productive for me if I let it take me to a "if I had only... ." place.  If I let it give me strength to press forward and learn more about the "order to the disorder... " it seems healthy.

Do you relate to any of these thought patterns?

[MaroonLiquid]

  I know I shouldn't try and understand those things because they are not reasonable or normal, but my mind doesn't work that way.  It wants to figure stuff out.  I don't think about it nearly as much, nor let it consume me because I know that I can't do anything about it.  Just still something I struggle with.    visions for a future, raising children together, and now, because of their illness, they are a stranger. 

If you can focus this on continuing to learn and understand more about the disorder... .less about her... .less about you... .that is most likely going to be productive.

I still sometimes think back to things I "messed up"... .or did before I learned about tools and started doing things "right".  That thinking is generally not productive for me if I let it take me to a "if I had only... ." place.  If I let it give me strength to press forward and learn more about the "order to the disorder... " it seems healthy.

Do you relate to any of these thought patterns?

Absolutely I do... .I feel I am getting better... .

She sent me a picture on text yesterday (from Facebook) and it said, "Once you start to heal and pull away from your narcissistic parent, they will see this as a threat.  They may accuse you of being manipulated by someone else.  "Who has put these crazy ideas in your head?"  This is actually their fear, from the realization that they are losing their control of you."  Very strange, and not sure it was intended for me... .

What I thought was strange about this picture she sent yesterday was we were sending pictures back and forth about the kids and keeping things light and having healthy conversation.  I did ask her about it and she didn't respond which is why I believe it wasn't inteded for me.  I let it go, and didn't think too much into it... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Today I am having a pretty strong feeling of trying to contact my wife.  I really miss her today... .I don't want to do it out of fear, but would like to have lunch with her.  I don't want to get rejected either.  What to do... .This sucks... .

[sweetheart]

Oh ML,

If you want to have lunch with your wife ask her. 

Yes it is possible she will say no, but not asking and wanting to sounds to me much worse than not asking at all, or being rejected.

FF and GK will probably provide you with a much more indepth analysis of the pros and cons, but for me sometimes I think in not reaching out to someone we love what we are trying to achieve can get lost in translation.

Also just a thought if you were to keep asking and always meet with rejection then it might be time to try a different approach.

Sometimes we as nons get too caught up in their dysfunction and forget that it is a perfectly natural desire to want to spend time with someone we love and to let them know this.

For what it's worth ML I keep on asking and reaching out just to let my h know that I am still here. Most of the time is hasn't been able to reciprocate, but I've come to accept this as part of the illness rather than him rejecting me.   

[MaroonLiquid]

We did have lunch last weekend with our daughter after softball.  As far as just us, she has rejected a lot (Christmas gift, Valentines Card, etc) from me lately and why I have decided to step back from her dysfunction.  I'm tired of making all the effort in this relationship regarding spending time together.  She knows I'm here.  I'm done chasing

[sweetheart]

ML do you know the saying ' cutting your nose off to spite your face ' ? It might be that's she just not capable of meeting and reaching out to you in the way she did before. It sounds as though she is often teetering around dysregulation and then some, it is hard for the pwBPD to find a way back from this each time this happens leaving them in a continuous state of agitation and irritability.

I believe in choosing to stay we lead by example and sometimes in continuing to role model positive, appropriate behaviours that exist in relationships where mental illness is not a factor, we can be part of helping our SO return to more 'normal patterns of functioning.'

Wanting it to be like it was before can stop things moving forward and create an impasse. Like playing 'chicken' this isn't a game of chicken, and in not reaching out to your wife because you can, because you are the well person seems counter intuitive to me.

That said I can hear that you are tired and fed-up with the way things are now and it takes great resilience and energy to always be the one to lead the way. I can relate to how you feel and it is very hard emotionally. Your journey has been a long arduous one and you have shown a huge capacity to learn and understand.

[MaroonLiquid]

ML do you know the saying ' cutting your nose off to spite your face ' ? It might be that's she just not capable of meeting and reaching out to you in the way she did before. It sounds as though she is often teetering around dysregulation and then some, it is hard for the pwBPD to find a way back from this each time this happens leaving them in a continuous state of agitation and irritability.

I believe in choosing to stay we lead by example and sometimes in continuing to role model positive, appropriate behaviours that exist in relationships where mental illness is not a factor, we can be part of helping our SO return to more 'normal patterns of functioning.'

Wanting it to be like it was before can stop things moving forward and create an impasse. Like playing 'chicken' this isn't a game of chicken, and in not reaching out to your wife because you can, because you are the well person seems counter intuitive to me.

That said I can hear that you are tired and fed-up with the way things are now and it takes great resilience and energy to always be the one to lead the way. I can relate to how you feel and it is very hard emotionally. Your journey has been a long arduous one and you have shown a huge capacity to learn and understand.

I totally agree with how you feel and feel for 8 months, I've done just that.  I'm not trying to "cut my nose", I'm actually trying to show strength and the ability to step back from being mistreated and our relationship being a one way street.  I refuse to enable her any longer and letting her live her choices.  She has backed herself into a corner (with her distorted reality and victimhood) with the kids, her family, friends and she will have to decide what's more important.  Is it more important keeping up her lies to people or working things out with her husband?  She hasn't shown that I'm a priority in a long time.  It's hard to continue to make her a priority considering.  If she were in counseling and not trying to sabotage it the times I've made the appointment, I might not be here.  I'm just trying to show her I want healthy... .

[sweetheart]

Stepping back from the mistreatment and dysfunction of a relationship with a SO who has BPD is of course exactly what every lesson on here teaches us. It is how I protected myself from my h's chaos this last year.

I was just thinking what will happen if she can't reach out, where will that leave the marriage for you ?

I accept that my h is unable because he is mentally ill to prioritise anyone else's needs over his own, but he can at times now since I stopped triggering him reach out to me with an unexpected gesture of love and intimacy. These gestures have changed in their presentation in the last few years but they mean more to me because we are long out of idealisation and firmly in the reality of living with someone with BPD. They feel real.

Remember ML what you want from your wife and what she has the capacity to give you can be two very different things. Can you accept this difference in your marriage in a way that allows you to continue to stay?

I'm also just wondering what you want your marriage to look like now if you were to describe it to someone ?

I haven't ever lived apart from my h and i can hear that this creates an extra layer of difficulty from which to convey what you want for your marriage and from your wife.

[formflier]

 

My advice is to figure out where you want to go to lunch... .invite her to go... .and go enjoy lunch.

If she chooses to enjoy lunch with you... .great... .if she declines... .you still enjoy a nice lunch.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Stepping back from the mistreatment and dysfunction of a relationship with a SO who has BPD is of course exactly what every lesson on here teaches us. It is how I protected myself from my h's chaos this last year.

I was just thinking what will happen if she can't reach out, where will that leave the marriage for you ?

I accept that my h is unable because he is mentally ill to prioritise anyone else's needs over his own, but he can at times now since I stopped triggering him reach out to me with an unexpected gesture of love and intimacy. These gestures have changed in their presentation in the last few years but they mean more to me because we are long out of idealisation and firmly in the reality of living with someone with BPD. They feel real.

Remember ML what you want from your wife and what she has the capacity to give you can be two very different things. Can you accept this difference in your marriage in a way that allows you to continue to stay?

I'm also just wondering what you want your marriage to look like now if you were to describe it to someone ?

I haven't ever lived apart from my h and i can hear that this creates an extra layer of difficulty from which to convey what you want for your marriage and from your wife.

She can and does reach out.  Today is two weeks that I have stepped back and only texted her first once.  She has texted first all the other times.  She is perfectly capable.  Our communication since then has been healthier as we haven't been around each other enough for her to dysregulate.  To me, that already is progress.  She is controlled by needing to be in control.  Me stepping back takes the control out of her hands.  I can't help that that makes her uncomfortable.  I stopped telling her I love her as that was another way to reject me.  She may not be able to return affection at this point in time, but that is hers to work out.  She can't expect me to just keep being a glutton for punishment.  I accept that what she struggles with keeps her from that, and love her in spite of it.  At the same time, she can't expect to treat me that way and expect me to stick around forever.  By not stepping back, I was becoming obsessive about this thing and making myself crazy.  

My advice is to figure out where you want to go to lunch... .invite her to go... .and go enjoy lunch.

If she chooses to enjoy lunch with you... .great... .if she declines... .you still enjoy a nice lunch.

FF

I would have to do dinner as lunch is already over.  The problem I'm having, is I don't know if I can go just her and I today and not talk about the r/s.  That bothers me.

[MaroonLiquid]

I have had a very difficult afternoon emotionally.  First one in a while.  I sat with my feelings of loneliness, heartbreak and just let myself shed some tears!  I allowed myself to miss my wife and my very best friend.  She was my best friend and it is painful to deal with the last 8 months of feeling like you are the enemy a majority of the time.  I wish I could express these things to her.  I looked at a picture on my wall of our first date, and I just thought to myself, "Where are you?"  Ridiculous, I know.   I guess I needed today on some level.  Not chasing her for the last two weeks has left me stronger as I'm not involved in the day to day melodrama, but (and I don't mean for this to sound narcissistic) I am wanting a relationship that meets emotional needs for me as well.  Just an I miss you, or I love you would go a long way. It's been weeks since I have heard that from her and possibly months where it wasn't attached to something I could do for her.

[new2pain]

Sorry your day didnt get any better... .

I was also really hoping for some contact today, dont know why today but was feeling it.

I got depressed yesterday and took pictures down, wish I could tell you it helped but today the blank spots make me want to cry more than the pictures did.

Hope ssoftball practice gets your mind clear for a little while.

Hang tuff... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, last night after practice, my wife decides to confront me regarding an issue with softball with our daughter.  :)uring practice, my daughter was completely out of line with me rolling her eyes and talking back to me.  I kindly pulled her aside and told her that wasn't acceptable behavior and she needed to straighten up.  She told me that I was "being too hard on them" (meaning her) and practice wasn't fun.   . I told her that it isn't going to be fun when they aren't giving me their best and as long as that continues from them, they will continue to run and do push-ups.  I'm here to coach and teach, not be a babysitter.  I told her that I expect my daughters to lead.  I told her that her behavior would not be tolerated.  She said she understood.  After practice, I asked the girls to gather up the balls and she walked off.  I called her back to talk to her and my wife walks up with that BPD dysregulated air about her and said, "Is there a problem".  I told her that nothing was wrong and then they walked to the car.  After a few minutes, my wife gets out and asked me to talk to her.  She started saying that our daughter is uncomfortable and I am taking our situation (marriage) out on her.  It was total BS.  I told her that I was sorry our daughter felt that way, but her behavior has been out of line at times.  She said I needed to make this about our daughter and make sure she has a good time.  I told my wife that that is what I want also, and at the same time, if they aren't behaving and giving me their best, I can't allow that.  My wife accused me of being inflexible to the needs of our daughter.   . Pot, meet kettle (didn't say that obviously).  My ex-wife then drove by and said that my son wants me to call him (he's really sick).  I told her give me a few minutes and I would.  My wife said, "Go take care of YOUR biological children!" I'll let you know if she'll be on the team any longer.  She then almost closed the car window on my hands and then drove off.  She texted a bit later and said that she would still remain on the team.  I asked her if she would talk to me on the phone as there was something important I needed to discuss with her.  She just flat said, "No".  Then she asked if our daughter could ride to the fields this morning as there was somewhere she had to be to drop off our other daughter and I said sure.  She said thank you.  I told her she seemed pretty upset this evening and that our being separated is difficult enough for us and extremely hard on our daughter.  She responded with, "I wasn't upset, just direct."  Riiiiiight.   . She can't even be honest.  No matter what I try and validate lately, it's always the opposite.  I just didn't go any further with the texting and went to bed.  I feel my daughters issue is she is trying to separate herself emotionally from me (because her mom) and causing a problem to make it easier in her head by making me the bad guy.  Her real dad wants nothing to do with them and now her mom is ostracizing me because of her illness.  I tried to validate some things my wife said regarding my daughters feeling, but some of them, I couldnt.  

This morning, before our game, we had team pictures and my wife and I talked a little bit and was cordial and nice.  She was talking about her Tae boxing class and I just listened and validated.  Then, after our game, we went for a team luncheon and my wife had to go pick up our daughter and her friends where they were and so our daughter rode with me.  At first, she said she wasn't coming, but then my older daughter walked in (didn't even see her at first as I wasn't expecting them) with her friends, sat in another part of the restaurant (my wife then had to take our son where the girls were) and my older daughter didn't even say hello to me.  I went over and talked to her and her friends and asked how they did at their choir solo and ensemble.  We talked for a few and I went and sat back at my table.  I'm going to be honest, it was effing weird.  You would have thought we never met until I went and talked to them.  My wife shows up a little later and sits with my older daughter.  She didn't talk to me either and wouldn't have until I had to ask her a question.  It seems like she is making things uncomfortable, purposefully separating herself (and creating a scene in front of people) and frankly, I'm tired of it.  She left and never said bye to me or acknowledged the other parents in any way.  I am doing what I can to make things better and she is not.  It's almost like she is purposefully making things harder and uncomfortable at times.  The avoidance of me and our r/s the last few weeks is getting old.

[new2pain]

Im sorry that things did not go well.

It is hard coaching your own kids, and your situation has to be making it harder without a unified front.

It is hard when were the ones learning what we can about BPD and think were gaining the knowledge and tools to be able to accept it and work with it. And they just continue with there destructive lives, and once they are out on there own it seems so much harder to try and utilize these skills, since avoidance is so much easier for them.

Mine did contact me friday night, crying all emotional, half love more like sex bombing and talking like she wanted to see me, then nothing Saturday, this morning a little small talk texting, so I asked if she wanted to have dinner and she stopped responding. My only cconsistency is the lack of cconsistency, Think I read on someone elses thread... .just enough crumbs to keep me on the trail.

[MaroonLiquid]

Im sorry that things did not go well.

It is hard coaching your own kids, and your situation has to be making it harder without a unified front.

It is hard when were the ones learning what we can about BPD and think were gaining the knowledge and tools to be able to accept it and work with it. And they just continue with there destructive lives, and once they are out on there own it seems so much harder to try and utilize these skills, since avoidance is so much easier for them.

Mine did contact me friday night, crying all emotional, half love more like sex bombing and talking like she wanted to see me, then nothing Saturday, this morning a little small talk texting, so I asked if she wanted to have dinner and she stopped responding. My only cconsistency is the lack of cconsistency, Think I read on someone elses thread... .just enough crumbs to keep me on the trail.

It's okay.  This is why I have stepped back from our r/s a ton and focused more on the kids.  The problem is, by her avoidance, she is making things more difficult with the kids as shown yesterday.  I am learning to let it go and realize it does no good right now to approach the subject.  Since our car deals went down, she has me split black.  These are her choices and learning to deal with them better and not allowing it to affect me because she doesn't want to deal with them.

[123Phoebe]

It's okay.  This is why I have stepped back from our r/s a ton and focused more on the kids.  The problem is, by her avoidance, she is making things more difficult with the kids as shown yesterday.  I am learning to let it go and realize it does no good right now to approach the subject.  Since our car deals went down, she has me split black.  These are her choices and learning to deal with them better and not allowing it to affect me because she doesn't want to deal with them.

Maroon, this does affect you.  How is it affecting you?  Please don't stuff your feelings, they matter!  You matter!

She might not be in a place to hear them and accept them, but we are

[MaroonLiquid]

I have started a new thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272410.msg12584000#msg12584000

[Turkish]

Since ML has started a new thread to continue the discussion, this one is closed (it's reached its post limit anyway). Please direct new responses to the new topic referenced in the above post.

Turkish