New Beginnings & Boundaries...

[MaroonLiquid]

Here is the old thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271461.0

Maroon, this sounds really tough

There still seems to be a lot of, she's doing this, I think it means that, she says blah blah blah because she hates that I'm doing such and such... .

I agree and trying to change this.  Can't worry about it.

Have you thought about the possibility that she really does want to divorce?  What do her actions tell you? Will you be blindsided if one day you're served with divorce papers?

Yes, I have thought about it, and no, I still don't think that is truly what she wants.  Her actions show that she is extremely confused and cares more about what she has told other people.  She has told me herself that, "She doesn't want to explain to people who think she is going one way and she is going another."

Having horrible communication skills doesn't mean that her feelings aren't real.  It also doesn't mean that her feelings won't change on a dime, either.  I'm more concerned with your thoughts and feelings, to be honest.

I'm actually really good the last week and a half as I have laid aside a lot of focusing on her.  When you made the statement that you "were obsessed", it hit home with me.  I realized, I have been and still on some level wanted to shield her from the bad stuff because I love her and I'm her husband.  Now, I know I can't shield her from that, don't want to, and for now, I understand that I'm her husband only on paper and when it suits her... .That is a power I don't have to give her.  

Divorcing my ex or staying with my partner, I had to get to a point that I could survive anything; build up my own internal reservoir.  Trust in myself to take care of me.

Are you discussing this with a therapist?  With a lawyer?  Getting your ducks in a row in the event of... .

Until 8 months ago, I never lived alone, so yes, now, I know I can survive anything and will be okay.  :)oesn't mean I want to... .

Have you asked her if divorce is what she really wants?  Are you emotionally prepared to really listen to and hear her answer, whatever it might be?  To accept and validate her feelings?  Not what you think her feelings might be or what you'd like for them to be, but what they are and how they affect you and your future?  Then being able to express your feelings to her?

You've been separated for a long time now.  What improvements are you seeing, feeling, experiencing?

For the first part, see my previous post in the old thread... .Improvements I am seeing is that she is much less volatile with me.  Still has her moments where she will fly off the cuff, but that is to be expected until she is in therapy.

Matters of the heart is serious business, it's not a game of chess... .

What do you want?  Is it achievable without her cooperation?

I want healthiness in my life, and in my childrens life.  That is achievable without her.  What I desire for our marriage (healthy, loving, happy and fulfilled) isn't without her.  

Sounds like you are doing better with your wife.

Sounds like she is still kinda crazy-making, but a bit better.

I am doing better myself, and with her.  yes, she is still kinda crazy-making.

One suggestion... .next time the divorce threat comes up... .Probably OK to ignore it in email. If she says something about it face to face or on the phone, you could validate more and argue less about it.

"I don't want a divorce, but I can't stop you from getting one."

I did tell her that, twice in the conversation... .But... .

Don't argue with the threat, don't engage the threat. That puts the choice to file back on her. (And what she wants is probably to engage you with the threat, not to actually DO the work of legal paperwork and dealing with lawyers.

And there really isn't anything to say about it, so don't let that part of the conversation keep going.

I still found myself getting Charmed (sucked in)... .It sucks... .She was throwing all my past mistakes up, faster than a speeding bullet and twisting me inside out.  Then I realized, I was as confused and thinking the same way she was.  Being out of the day to day stuff for almost 8 months now, I understand better just how crazy making it is... .I actually see now how and why she justifies her own crap, decisions and whatever else to herself.  She HAS TO BE THE VICTIM.  Because her dad victimized her, she WANTS/expects every man to victimize her.  When I didn't, she had to create situations for that.  

Stay strong in yourself! You are getting this.

I am doing my best to stay strong and focus on myself.  I woke up this morning at 4:45AM with a bad feeling about my wife and started praying for her.  Prayed for about 20 minutes solid and texted to make sure everything was ok.  I still haven't got a response yet, but not going to text her again.  That's the first time in a week and a half that I have texted first.  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I still found myself getting charmed (sucked in)... .It sucks... .She was throwing all my past mistakes up, faster than a speeding bullet and twisting me inside out.  Then I realized, I was as confused and thinking the same way she was.  Being out of the day to day stuff for almost 8 months now, I understand better just how crazy making it is... .I actually see now how and why she justifies her own crap, decisions and whatever else to herself.  She HAS TO BE THE VICTIM.  Because her dad victimized her, she WANTS/expects every man to victimize her.  When I didn't, she had to create situations for that.  

Might be a good time to limit direct phone and face-to-face contact with her.

I set my wife's ringtone to Rod Stewart's "Reason to Believe" as a reminder that if I answered the phone I was likely to get engaged in that sort of stuff, and didn't want to put either of us through it... .If you want I can send you the file for your phone! LOL

I've made a TON of progress, but I still get charmed/sucked in. And the conversation is flowing so nicely that I don't even notice when it has slid into that area until it is too late!

[MaroonLiquid]

I still found myself getting charmed (sucked in)... .It sucks... .She was throwing all my past mistakes up, faster than a speeding bullet and twisting me inside out.  Then I realized, I was as confused and thinking the same way she was.  Being out of the day to day stuff for almost 8 months now, I understand better just how crazy making it is... .I actually see now how and why she justifies her own crap, decisions and whatever else to herself.  She HAS TO BE THE VICTIM.  Because her dad victimized her, she WANTS/expects every man to victimize her.  When I didn't, she had to create situations for that.  

Might be a good time to limit direct phone and face-to-face contact with her.

I set my wife's ringtone to Rod Stewart's "Reason to Believe" as a reminder that if I answered the phone I was likely to get engaged in that sort of stuff, and didn't want to put either of us through it... .If you want I can send you the file for your phone! LOL

I've made a TON of progress, but I still get charmed/sucked in. And the conversation is flowing so nicely that I don't even notice when it has slid into that area until it is too late!

 Why do you say I should limit that?  I have been as you can see.  I actually was thinking of inviting her to dinner just her and I.  Bad idea right now?  I miss alone time/intimacy with her... .

She texted back and said, "I'm great, thx"  I responded, "Thanks for letting me know.  Have a great day".

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

You are the man!     

Think of yourself as a softball team getting ready for the tournament... .I think you are ready. 

Even championship teams make mistakes... .but what happens when a championship team makes a mistake?  (let's hear it coach?)


I'm going to hold off on making any comments... .about Grey's comments about limiting contact... .you've asked a question... I'm interested in a response.  Grey usually has a pretty good sense of things. 

Your posts seem very clear and thoughtful... .and introspective.  I especially like the parts where you acknowledge slipping... .catching yourself... .and moving forward (the getting sucked in thing)

Anyway... .keep up the good work. 

Looking forward to your coaching analysis of teams and mistakes! 

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

You are the man!     

Think of yourself as a softball team getting ready for the tournament... .I think you are ready. 

Even championship teams make mistakes... .but what happens when a championship team makes a mistake?  (let's hear it coach?)

Our team motto is "Hustle, Hit and Never Quit".  I tell them mistakes happen.  I tell my team all the time, we are a family, play every practice/game as if it is the last time you'll ever lace up your cleats, play how we coach you, don't let the other team or umpires take us out of our game, and don't try and be the hero.  If you make mistakes playing with maniacal effort, I will never be upset.  I refuse to tolerate mistakes from poor effort.  If you make a mistake, I expect you to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and make it up the next moment you have. 

That can be the next pitch, or the next inning or next time at the plate.  Don't carry it over to the next pitch, because your family will have your back.  In the championship game on Saturday, my girls played the motto to perfection even though we lost 3-2.  Both teams deserved to win, however, the umpire was new and didn't know all the rules.  I told the girls that the lesson here is, play smart.  if it wasn't for our two runners called out at third and home plate for not listening to the base coaches, we would have won.  The difference in our game of winning was 60 feet... .

I'm going to hold off on making any comments... .about Grey's comments about limiting contact... .you've asked a question... I'm interested in a response.  Grey usually has a pretty good sense of things. 

Your posts seem very clear and thoughtful... .and introspective.  I especially like the parts where you acknowledge slipping... .catching yourself... .and moving forward (the getting sucked in thing)

Anyway... .keep up the good work. 

Looking forward to your coaching analysis of teams and mistakes! 

Thanks FF... .I really am trying to gain a better handle on myself. 

[formflier]

 

Nice work! 

Hoping you will take on an assignment.

Modify your slogan and your paragraph to the coach talking to you... .about how you approach being a "stayer" in a relationship with someone that displays BPD traits.

I think it will be good for you ... .to have something to read before you "head out onto the playing field"... .(have contact with your wife)... .and I think there are lots of people on here with a sports mentality... .that would benefit from it... .once we get it tweaked up a bit... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Nice work! 

Hoping you will take on an assignment.

Modify your slogan and your paragraph to the coach talking to you... .about how you approach being a "stayer" in a relationship with someone that displays BPD traits.

I think it will be good for you ... .to have something to read before you "head out onto the playing field"... .(have contact with your wife)... .and I think there are lots of people on here with a sports mentality... .that would benefit from it... .once we get it tweaked up a bit... .

My slogan is "Hustle, Hit and Never Quit"... .

For a person in a BPD relationship, I would say it should be "Validation, Firm Boundaries, and Loving Patience"... .

We have to remember we are all human.  We all have faults and issues of our own to be mindful of and should change when we are aware of it.  This is something you should do whether you are in a r/s or not.  There is no TRY, there is only DO or DO NOT.  Never be afraid to fail.  Perfection is impossible and everyone will falter.  When you do, pick yourself up and dust yourself off.  Don't make excuses, take responsibility, be honest and move forward.  Validate yourself.  Don't let it haunt you by dwelling on it, or letting your SO torment you with it.  They aren't perfect either.  When your SO falls, have their back, validate them, but let them dust themselves off and lead them forward.  It will take a lot of effort to be the person they need, therefore, take care of YOU and your needs.  Don't be someone who is led by your feelings as they will lead you astray.  One thing that we can all learn from a pwBPD is, feelings are always temporary.  Don't make permanent decisions based on temporary circumstances.  Make permanent decisions based on healthy choices. 

Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

I do have one question.  I'm stuck in this thing where I am afraid at times to "put myself out there" and ask my wife for some time together just her and I.  I know why, and it's because I have been told no, she has to work, has plans, that she didn't want to spend time with me, and just treated poorly a lot over the last 8 months.  PTSD maybe?     I know there is a little fear of being hurt by her response.  I don't remember the last time she has called me and asked if I wanted to do something just the two of us.  Honestly, that hurts.  Anyway, how do I get past that feeling?  Is it just something I ask and if she says no, just say ok and let it go?  I refuse to chase her, yet it's hard when you feel like your wife is someone you barely know at times.  I guess I just need to stick to my guns of letting her call me and letting her make the effort for once.  Me always making the effort enables her to not make any.  

[Grey Kitty]

I still found myself getting charmed (sucked in)... .It sucks... .She was throwing all my past mistakes up, faster than a speeding bullet and twisting me inside out.  

Might be a good time to limit direct phone and face-to-face contact with her.

I set my wife's ringtone to Rod Stewart's "Reason to Believe" as a reminder that if I answered the phone I was likely to get engaged in that sort of stuff, and didn't want to put either of us through it... .but I still get charmed/sucked in. And the conversation is flowing so nicely that I don't even notice when it has slid into that area until it is too late!

 Why do you say I should limit that?  I have been as you can see.

... .I miss alone time/intimacy with her... .

I was suggesting it for consideration, not as a certainty. I have made that choice with my wife... .your situation is not the same... .I've cut the quotes down to things just relevant to this point.

I too enjoy intimacy and conversation with my wife, and miss it.

My conclusion is that if I allow that sort of easy intimacy with her, things will flow into messy areas I really don't want to cycle through another time. I just cannot stop her from doing this sooner or later, and it is usually sooner.

I'd encourage you to look closely at how these conversations go... .figure out how long you can stay engaged in a good way, and how long she can. When she goes on the attack, it isn't good for either you or her. If it is happening too much, choose to limit things to avoid much of this.

I see several possibilities with your wife

• You could live separately as you are today, staying separate from your wife, but spending as much time with her and her kids as she will allow.



• You could move back in and have a marriage where there isn't much real intimacy with your wife, but you get to participate in raising her children. If you find yourself able to enforce boundaries sufficient to prevent abuse of you and the children, this would probably make you happier than what you have today. (She doesn't have to do much work for this. If you manage this, it could potentially flow into the next one.



• Your wife could recover from BPD, you could move back in, re-form a family, and resume something better than what you left. (Long process, she's going to have to do a lot of work; likely therapy... .but possible)

Think about what you want, and what is more important. You may find yourself trading off challenging her to have a better marriage, or not challenging her, to have more access to her kids and be a better parent. This isn't an easy choice. If you are lucky, they won't be in conflict much.

[formflier]

I see several possibilities with your wife

• You could live separately as you are today, staying separate from your wife, but spending as much time with her and her kids as she will allow.



• You could move back in and have a marriage where there isn't much real intimacy with your wife, but you get to participate in raising her children. If you find yourself able to enforce boundaries sufficient to prevent abuse of you and the children, this would probably make you happier than what you have today. (She doesn't have to do much work for this. If you manage this, it could potentially flow into the next one.



• Your wife could recover from BPD, you could move back in, re-form a family, and resume something better than what you left. (Long process, she's going to have to do a lot of work; likely therapy... .but possible)

Think about what you want, and what is more important. You may find yourself trading off challenging her to have a better marriage, or not challenging her, to have more access to her kids and be a better parent. This isn't an easy choice. If you are lucky, they won't be in conflict much.

Maroon,

What do you see as your "next steps"?

I'm still thinking about your question about reaching out.

Initial reaction is that it is ok... .as long as you are fine with either outcome and don't react.  However... .I'm thinking that you might want to spend some time on the boards developing your next steps... .working through goals.

You kinda have a few big things behind you... .

Car

Daughter in softball

Maybe a better question... .what other things need to be resolved... .(is laptop still an issue?)

[formflier]

 

Have you talked to your mom?

Do I have this correct.?... that... .you asked your mom to stay out of it.  Mom sits next to her... .mom chews on her about the r/s.

[MaroonLiquid]

I was suggesting it for consideration, not as a certainty. I have made that choice with my wife... .your situation is not the same... .I've cut the quotes down to things just relevant to this point.

I too enjoy intimacy and conversation with my wife, and miss it.

That is hard for me, especially when she enjoys it as much as I do... .

My conclusion is that if I allow that sort of easy intimacy with her, things will flow into messy areas I really don't want to cycle through another time. I just cannot stop her from doing this sooner or later, and it is usually sooner.

I'd encourage you to look closely at how these conversations go... .figure out how long you can stay engaged in a good way, and how long she can. When she goes on the attack, it isn't good for either you or her. If it is happening too much, choose to limit things to avoid much of this.

My wife and I usually have two to three good weeks when we are spending a lot of time together before things got messy and a reason came up to shun me from her presence... .But that was when there was always things to "hold over my head" so to speak... .Now, there really isn't anything.  It's all pretty much settled, and now we are in less contact since the car thing got straightened out.  I think she went to a place where she thought I was "done" and protecting herself since I was pushing so hard for them to be separated.  Again, I won't worry about what she is thinking or what is "making sense to her".  Part of my "stepping back" is to limit the abuse of using me, let her taste her choices and most of all to get to a place of healthy conversation.  It is definitely healthier since I stepped back and do believe she sees a difference.  

    One thing she said the other night while talking was, "For someone who "cares about his family so much, you spend a lot of time at your apartment".  Never really got this, and didn't know how to validate it.  What I said was, "I would much rather be spending time with my family than there."  

I see several possibilities with your wife

• You could live separately as you are today, staying separate from your wife, but spending as much time with her and her kids as she will allow.

This isn't healthy and I won't allow it to go on much longer without T.  This would cause way too much confusion in the kids and I won't do that to any of them.  

You could move back in and have a marriage where there isn't much real intimacy with your wife, but you get to participate in raising her children. If you find yourself able to enforce boundaries sufficient to prevent abuse of you and the children, this would probably make you happier than what you have today. (She doesn't have to do much work for this. If you manage this, it could potentially flow into the next one.

I would ONLY consider moving back if she was in T, we got a different house, and the kids knew the truth about her and what she struggles with... .

Your wife could recover from BPD, you could move back in, re-form a family, and resume something better than what you left. (Long process, she's going to have to do a lot of work; likely therapy... .but possible)

Think about what you want, and what is more important. You may find yourself trading off challenging her to have a better marriage, or not challenging her, to have more access to her kids and be a better parent. This isn't an easy choice. If you are lucky, they won't be in conflict much.

"Challenging her to have a better marriage"... .Interesting... .What does that look like?  

Thinking about my responsibility of being a parent, I am in conflict with not challenging her to have more access.

The oldest son already doesn't respect me because of what he has been told by my wife... .That certainly won't change without seeing me in the fatherly role inside the house.  He already treats me like crap most of the time when I have been to her house.  Part of it is he is bitter and angry... .Part of it is painting me black... .Why did you feel limiting contact was right for you?

Maroon,

What do you see as your "next steps"?

My next steps... .Continue to keep my sidewalk clean.  I am staying with our daughter at my wife's house weekend after next while she is with the older two out of town.  That will give us some one on one time and excited about that and told my wife so.  I want to "reconnect" emotionally with my wife now that all the "sideshow bob" crap is out of the way.  This is where I'm nervous because this requires both of us.  

I'm still thinking about your question about reaching out.

Initial reaction is that it is ok... .as long as you are fine with either outcome and don't react.  However... .I'm thinking that you might want to spend some time on the boards developing your next steps... .working through goals.

You kinda have a few big things behind you... .

Car

Daughter in softball

Maybe a better question... .what other things need to be resolved... .(is laptop still an issue?)

Yes, laptop is at my wife's house still... .I could simply take that while I'm there and put it in my car... .... .

Have you talked to your mom?

Do I have this correct.?... that... .you asked your mom to stay out of it.  Mom sits next to her... .mom chews on her about the r/s.

I did ask her to stay out of it if she came to the softball fields to watch the kids.  She did confront my wife (away from people) and told her to leave me alone, but still did what I asked her not to do which really pissed me off.  But it does add to my wife's fear of things not being able to be fixed.  I validated that the other night afterwards when we met, and told her that what my mom thinks doesn't change that I want to be with my wife.  My mom is a piece of work and can't keep her mouth shut.  When it happened, I took up for my wife and told my mom that she was out of line and it wasn't her place.  My mom does this kind of crap and always gets involved in things that aren't her place... .[/list]

[Grey Kitty]

Why did I limit contact? See my last two topics on the Undecided board. (It isn't really a staying subject)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271318.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271977.0;all

Maroon, you twice mention a "need" for your wife get therapy. I've heard many stories here of people whose partners don't believe they are mentally ill, and don't want to get treatment. Getting them into effective treatment is a HUGE challenge. Many others here have partners in some kind of therapy, and aren't seeing fast improvement.

I don't recall your wife acknowledging any mental health issues at all.

You also say something about "the kids knew the truth about her and what she struggles with"

Honestly... .kids are VERY aware and in tune with what is going on in the house. They may also be involved, enmeshed, and very resistant to their current beliefs/feelings being challenged.

I think the issue there is really parental alienation. Ugh.

[MaroonLiquid]

Why did I limit contact? See my last two topics on the Undecided board. (It isn't really a staying subject)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271318.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271977.0;all

Maroon, you twice mention a "need" for your wife get therapy. I've heard many stories here of people whose partners don't believe they are mentally ill, and don't want to get treatment. Getting them into effective treatment is a HUGE challenge. Many others here have partners in some kind of therapy, and aren't seeing fast improvement.

I don't recall your wife acknowledging any mental health issues at all.

You also say something about "the kids knew the truth about her and what she struggles with"

Honestly... .kids are VERY aware and in tune with what is going on in the house. They may also be involved, enmeshed, and very resistant to their current beliefs/feelings being challenged.

I think the issue there is really parental alienation. Ugh.

My wife has acknowledged some issues in the past (what I know now is symptoms of BPD).  I know that being in T is a slow process.  I guess I just want her to admit that part of our r/s breakdown is her fault and let's start there.  At least that is a start.  I know that is no small feat for them however.  I do think parental alienation is totally right on.  It sucks.  I'm hoping that by spending time with the younger one next week will put me in a different light.  I'm actually surprised my wife is still doing it at this point, especially after "threatening divorce".  I wonder how she'll hide it to her Facebook friends.  She'll probably tell them she shipped her to Antarctica for the weekend.   . Lord knows the last eight months I've might as well been there!   . At least I can laugh about it.

[Grey Kitty]

I do think parental alienation is totally right on.  It sucks.

Have you posted about how to deal with the parental alienation on the Legal Board, or better yet, the co-parenting after the split board?

Lots of folks there have dealt with it before. Your status as a non-legal-step-parent changes the tools you have, but not what your wife is doing.

[MaroonLiquid]

I do think parental alienation is totally right on.  It sucks.

Have you posted about how to deal with the parental alienation on the Legal Board, or better yet, the co-parenting after the split board?

Lots of folks there have dealt with it before. Your status as a non-legal-step-parent changes the tools you have, but not what your wife is doing.

No, I will post there today... .Thanks... .

Ok, so I am a little irritated this morning.  My wife texted and said our daughter would be a few minutes late to warm ups for our game tonight as she has to pick up our older two from voice lessons.  I offered to pick her up early and would give her some extra batting practice before the team got there.  She said she would meet me at the fields and drop her off.  I told her that was fine and what time to meet me there.  Here are a few things that irritate me.  After I told her where at the fields I would be, I asked her how work was going (you know, small talk).  She responded with, "Ok, that's fine.", but no response to my question.  I just responded with, ok, see you then.  Avoiding is irritant no. 1.  Irritant no.2 is she asks me if I am able to stay with our daughter next weekend, but yet, acts weird about me coming over (will go out of her way to keep me from her "territory" when it is on my way to pick her up), which she usually does when I'm painted black (makes me feel like I have leprosy or something).  Then, I question why she even wants me to stay with our daughter.  I guess this is still gives her some form of control over the relationship and avoidance of the issue regarding our r/s (or lack thereof at the moment)?     I'm over the irritation now... .

[Grey Kitty]

It can be really empowering to name behavior.

I still remember the time when a friend just casually added something into an email conversation where I was asking for support in working things out with my wife "You know, verbally abusing your spouse is completely unacceptable." based on the behavior I was describing / saying I was afraid would come.

I'm pretty sure it was the first time the word "abuse" ever came up for me. The ripples that came from that pebble dropping were ultimately pretty big.

[formflier]

I'm pretty sure it was the first time the word "abuse" ever came up for me. 

How did you figure out when to bring up that word with your wife? 

Do you think you go the timing "right" when you did it?

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm pretty sure it was the first time the word "abuse" ever came up for me. 

How did you figure out when to bring up that word with your wife? 

Do you think you go the timing "right" when you did it?

Great question, because I was thinking of actually talking to my wife about this... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'm pretty sure it was the first time the word "abuse" ever came up for me. 

How did you figure out when to bring up that word with your wife? 

Do you think you go the timing "right" when you did it?

Great question, because I was thinking of actually talking to my wife about this... .

I recommend you NOT bring that word up with your wife, if at all possible. Firm boundaries that you won't accept abusive behavior work better than labeling it... .with her.

If you need to use words to enforce the boundaries, try things like "I will not stand here and be shouted at." instead of "I will not stand here and be verbally abused." for example. Use words that are less charged, and harder to debate/deny like "shouting" "criticizing" "arguing"

For YOU, the label is very powerful in a good way. It helps you frame your thinking about the situation. If you mention it to her, it is still powerful... .but not good--it will put her on the defensive, to say the least. (She might start screaming "I am not abusive!" at you   Nothing good will come of THAT!)

I was VERY lucky, both in circumstances, and that my wife is far more self-aware than typical for these boards.

We were having a lot of horrible fights... .and both looking for solutions because we both know something wasn't right in our marriage. She found an online description of a workshop, which was intended for couples in abusive relationships (after physical abuse was addressed, or where it hadn't come up at all).

She read the description, and even though it was written as most text about domestic abuse is written--as being perpetrated by the man on the woman, she had a very serious realization that her behavior was abusive, not mine. And she told me.

So I never did put that label on her. I don't think anything good would have come of it had I done so before she saw it herself.

My $.02

[MaroonLiquid]

I recommend you NOT bring that word up with your wife, if at all possible. Firm boundaries that you won't accept abusive behavior work better than labeling it... .with her.

If you need to use words to enforce the boundaries, try things like "I will not stand here and be shouted at." instead of "I will not stand here and be verbally abused." for example. Use words that are less charged, and harder to debate/deny like "shouting" "criticizing" "arguing"

For YOU, the label is very powerful in a good way. It helps you frame your thinking about the situation. If you mention it to her, it is still powerful... .but not good--it will put her on the defensive, to say the least. (She might start screaming "I am not abusive!" at you   Nothing good will come of THAT!)

I was VERY lucky, both in circumstances, and that my wife is far more self-aware than typical for these boards.

We were having a lot of horrible fights... .and both looking for solutions because we both know something wasn't right in our marriage. She found an online description of a workshop, which was intended for couples in abusive relationships (after physical abuse was addressed, or where it hadn't come up at all).

She read the description, and even though it was written as most text about domestic abuse is written--as being perpetrated by the man on the woman, she had a very serious realization that her behavior was abusive, not mine. And she told me.

So I never did put that label on her. I don't think anything good would have come of it had I done so before she saw it herself.

My $.02

Actually I was talking about the parental alienation tactic she does.  She refuses to admit any abuse on her part, even when it is staring her in the face... .

[Grey Kitty]

Actually I was talking about the parental alienation tactic she does.  She refuses to admit any abuse on her part, even when it is staring her in the face... .

Ask yourself... .would she admit to parental alienation if it was staring her in the face?

If not... .saying it out loud to her isn't likely to change anything for the better.

I think the same advice applies. If you bring it up, bring up specific behavior that is harder to deny is happening, rather than a confrontational label for the pattern of behavior.

Better to have your lawyer use the words parental alienation, if it comes to that! Part of what you pay a lawyer for is to say the nasty stuff on your behalf, saving you from (some) of the consequences.

[MaroonLiquid]

Ask yourself... .would she admit to parental alienation if it was staring her in the face?

Probably not... .

If not... .saying it out loud to her isn't likely to change anything for the better.

I think the same advice applies. If you bring it up, bring up specific behavior that is harder to deny is happening, rather than a confrontational label for the pattern of behavior.

So, if I understnad correctly, I should ask why she doesn't give me the details for the kids extra curricular activities?

[Grey Kitty]

So, if I understnad correctly, I should ask why she doesn't give me the details for the kids extra curricular activities?

Don't ask why. Pretty silly to give her an engraved invitation to to JADE or blame you! 

Identify what specific behavior you want her to change, and ask for that. Work on good communication skills... .perhaps SET?

[formflier]

 

In my r/s... .I've really tried to get rid of "why".  Sounds very lawyerish... .

"Help me understand... ." is one of my favorites.

But... .you have to make sure you have even delivery... .and that you really want to understand.

Sometimes... .if I'm not on my game... .I say it and it probably comes across as  "ha ha... .I'm going to make you explain your ridiculous behavior... ."

Maybe thinking about saying it without any judgement is the way.

In this case... .I think I would go with grey... .

"Wifey... I would like to know about little Jimmy's concert schedule so I can show up and support him... ."

If she coughs up information... .thank her and move on.

If not... .then... .you have a big decision to make.

Even help me understand invites an explanation... .if they start explaining... .they can easily slip into blaming.

So... .might be best to drop it if she says no... .and maybe try again later.  Who knows...

Good luck...

[MaroonLiquid]

In my r/s... .I've really tried to get rid of "why".  Sounds very lawyerish... .

"Help me understand... ." is one of my favorites.

But... .you have to make sure you have even delivery... .and that you really want to understand.

Sometimes... .if I'm not on my game... .I say it and it probably comes across as  "ha ha... .I'm going to make you explain your ridiculous behavior... ."

Maybe thinking about saying it without any judgement is the way.

In this case... .I think I would go with grey... .

"Wifey... I would like to know about little Jimmy's concert schedule so I can show up and support him... ."

If she coughs up information... .thank her and move on.

If not... .then... .you have a big decision to make.

Even help me understand invites an explanation... .if they start explaining... .they can easily slip into blaming.

So... .might be best to drop it if she says no... .and maybe try again later.  Who knows...

Good luck...

I use "help me to understand" and she asks a "help me to understand" question right back.  Pretty ridiculous... .  The other thing I love is when I say, "I'm sorry you feel that way", she responds with either, "I'm sorry you feel that way!" in a completely mocking tone or says, "That is such a BS comeback!  :)on't take any responsibility for how it makes me feel!"  I have to laugh sometimes because when I tell her how I feel, she says, "I'm not responsible for how you feel!"  I feel like I'm talking to Pee-Wee Herman sometimes with the, "I know you are but what am I!" comeback... .

[Grey Kitty]

Time to stop talking about feelings with her. At least for a while. When was the last time that went well?

BTW, "I'm sorry you feel that way" doesn't sound either caring or validating.



Stick to asking for what you want, packaged using the best communication tools you have. Pick something you want, and work on how you can ask for it... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Stick to asking for what you want, packaged using the best communication tools you have. Pick something you want, and work on how you can ask for it... .

Time alone with just her and I for starters!

[Grey Kitty]

Stick to asking for what you want, packaged using the best communication tools you have. Pick something you want, and work on how you can ask for it... .

Time alone with just her and I for starters!

Uhm... .I meant something relating to the parental alienation.

How has the last time alone with her gone? How long has it lasted without dysregulation, attacks, blaming, etc.?

[MaroonLiquid]

Uhm... .I meant something relating to the parental alienation.

Yeah, I know... .Thought I'd take a shot in the dark!   

How has the last time alone with her gone? How long has it lasted without dysregulation, attacks, blaming, etc.?

The other night wasn't great... .Overall, much better than it was the first couple of months... .Sometimes lasting a few weeks.  Last night I got a text from her after our game:

     Your behavior on the field tonight was ridiculous! What happened to self-control, grace, mercy and     

     encouragement? The tantrum you threw was embarrassing! Do you see any other coach out there acting like

     you do? You've lost touch with what a coach is supposed to do. When you act like that, your girls give up. It's

     no longer about playing their best, it's about playing to keep you from getting mad and that's where the

     errors run rampant. You are the only person responsible for this loss tonight.

My response:

     I can tell that you are disappointed in me.  I can see how my frustration affected the girls.  I am disappointed

     in myself.  I admit I got frustrated and didn't show a whole lot of grace tonight.  No excuses from me.  I

     should have handled it better.  Thank you for talking to me about it.  I appreciate you.  I will talk to them on

     Friday at practice.   

In some ways, she was right, and know I am ultimately responsible for our teams play, but has been a while that she actually has had something nice/loving to say to me (last time was right before the accident that led us to getting other vehicles, and on a more regular basis was during the holidays and when I was taking care of her when she was sick about a month ago). 

To actually answer your question about parental alienation... .How about spending time all together (not necessarily in a romantic way, but rather a family way)... .We have talked about it (going to a park and fishing, etc), but haven't done it due to her dysregulations and ST's... .