Self Punishment

[ColdEthyl]

My H did something a bit odd this weekend. He tends to be a bit animated when he's talking, and he was explaining something and waving his arms around when he accidentally knocked his coffee over unto the floor. He ran out of the room to go get a towel... and for some reason he came back without one and used one of his favorite flannel shirts to clean up the mess.

When I asked him why he didn't grab a towel he just said "this was a better idea"

I have seen him sacrifice his stuff before for various reasons... .usually as a martyr situation. (IE I was dying my hair and it kept falling into my face, he insisted I use one of his old work tshirts to wrap my hair in as opposed to a towel)

But this time... .it seemed like a self-punishment. It seemed like he was punishing himself for making a mistake. Has anyone else seen this type of behavior? Does this seem like what's going on here?

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[EaglesJuju]

I think you are right CE and it is a form of self-punishment/self-sabotaging.  It has a lot to do with a pwBPD's internalized feelings of self-hatred/loathing and shame.  Many people who feel internal shame and pwBPD tend to be raised in environments where the ideal of "being perfect" is the norm. This standard of "perfection" becomes engrained and many times they will punish themselves if not living up to that standard. 

I have seen something similar to this with my bf. During one of his brief stints at college, he had a C average in a class. At the end of the semester, instead of taking his final (which he would have easily passed) he decided to not take the test because he was not getting an A or B. He ended up punishing himself by receiving a F in the class.

[ColdEthyl]

*nods* That has to be some of the saddest things I see him do. I can see him do it in other ways... .not taking care of himself, not asking for things he might need/want because 'he doesn't deserve it.' He usually break his own things during a dysregulation if stuff escalates to that point. (hasn't been for awhile, our communication is getting better thanks to this site)

His ex had told me he always broke her things. His son with uBPD does the same things... .but breaks his wife's stuff. I wonder why now he turns it all inwards O.o

[maxsterling]

I find this interesting.  I can't think of any times my wife has done anything like this deliberately, but I could see where it could happen at some point.  

[waverider]

My partners form of self punishing shows itself in not eating meals as she doesn't believe she deserve good food.

I think self punishing is common, but it is not always obvious as it is not necessarily attention seeking.

It is almost like an opposite split of the narcissist traits. They swing from a feeling of entitlement to a feelings of being not being worthy, maybe associated with self guilt. Not because they have failed anyone else, but because they are failing themselves.

[EaglesJuju]

It is almost like an opposite split of the narcissist traits. They swing from a feeling of entitlement to a feelings of being not being worthy, maybe associated with self guilt. Not because they have failed anyone else, but because they are failing themselves.

This is a very good observation.  I think the moments when a pwBPD feels like they are failing themselves is a glimpse of self-awareness. 

[OffRoad]

This brings to mind a question I have: Is there anything nons can do to make a pwBPD feel like they don't have to punish themselves? For example, is there anything that can be done by a non to help a person who feels like they don't deserve good food feel that they ARE worthy of good food?

[waverider]

This brings to mind a question I have: Is there anything nons can do to make a pwBPD feel like they don't have to punish themselves? For example, is there anything that can be done by a non to help a person who feels like they don't deserve good food feel that they ARE worthy of good food?

Most of the tools of validation and SET for example will reduce these swings, but are unlikely to totally eliminate them.

The irony is that if they feel they are worthless and you tell them they are not, you are invalidating that feeling and telling them they are wrong, and have no right to feel that way. So it is a balancing act, as always.

[Cole]

This brings to mind a question I have: Is there anything nons can do to make a pwBPD feel like they don't have to punish themselves? For example, is there anything that can be done by a non to help a person who feels like they don't deserve good food feel that they ARE worthy of good food?

Most of the tools of validation and SET for example will reduce these swings, but are unlikely to totally eliminate them.

The irony is that if they feel they are worthless and you tell them they are not, you are invalidating that feeling and telling them they are wrong, and have no right to feel that way. So it is a balancing act, as always.

A quandary I battle all the time. She does things to punish herself because she is ashamed of the way she has acted, does act, and likely will continue to act. Unfortunately, ff is right on the money with this one; telling her she has nothing to feel ashamed about simply invalidates and at times even causes dysregulation.

I think the core shame issue is one we can best address by helping them find a good T and making sure they stick with it. They are not going to listen to us, the SO's, because we are too close.

[waverider]

... and making sure they stick with it. They are not going to listen to us, the SO's,

There's the rub... how can we do this?

[Grey Kitty]

I think self punishing is common, but it is not always obvious as it is not necessarily attention seeking.

It is almost like an opposite split of the narcissist traits. They swing from a feeling of entitlement to a feelings of being not being worthy, maybe associated with self guilt. Not because they have failed anyone else, but because they are failing themselves.

Years back when I first set boundaries not to accept abusive behavior, I started leaving when she got into verbally abusive circular blaming arguments (dysregulated)

I would go away as long as *I* needed to calm myself down... .or as long as I thought she was still dysregulated. One time I went for a walk. Out in the boonies; went to the nearest minimart, a half-hour or 45 minutes... .walked back. Realized that as I was getting closer, I was feeling more agitated, so I went past and walked in another direction, and finally came back. At least two hours.

Days or weeks later she shared what had happened that time. She was FULL of rage when I left. I wasn't there to discharge it on. She directed it onto herself instead. It was a hard lesson for her. I later found out she wrote horrible things about her own body on it with sharpie marker. [under her clothes, so I didn't see it]

Eventually she let enough of the self-hatred go that she didn't do such things to herself anymore.

And eventually she thanked me for taking the crutch of blaming me away from her (!)

The best thing you can do is get out of the way and let them make their own choices, and experience their own consequences. It is an opportunity for them to learn better coping techniques. And REALLY HARD to watch until then.

[ColdEthyl]

I think self punishing is common, but it is not always obvious as it is not necessarily attention seeking.

It is almost like an opposite split of the narcissist traits. They swing from a feeling of entitlement to a feelings of being not being worthy, maybe associated with self guilt. Not because they have failed anyone else, but because they are failing themselves.

Years back when I first set boundaries not to accept abusive behavior, I started leaving when she got into verbally abusive circular blaming arguments (dysregulated)

I would go away as long as *I* needed to calm myself down... .or as long as I thought she was still dysregulated. One time I went for a walk. Out in the boonies; went to the nearest minimart, a half-hour or 45 minutes... .walked back. Realized that as I was getting closer, I was feeling more agitated, so I went past and walked in another direction, and finally came back. At least two hours.

Days or weeks later she shared what had happened that time. She was FULL of rage when I left. I wasn't there to discharge it on. She directed it onto herself instead. It was a hard lesson for her. I later found out she wrote horrible things about her own body on it with sharpie marker. [under her clothes, so I didn't see it]

Eventually she let enough of the self-hatred go that she didn't do such things to herself anymore.

And eventually she thanked me for taking the crutch of blaming me away from her (!)

The best thing you can do is get out of the way and let them make their own choices, and experience their own consequences. It is an opportunity for them to learn better coping techniques. And REALLY HARD to watch until then.

I'm wondering if what I'm seeing now is due to the changes I've made IE different communication, setting boundaries, etc. or if I am just becoming more aware of his behaviors.

More and more often, he's having clear coherent thoughts and honest reflections of himself. He does tend to back peddle the second it comes out... .but it's progress from never saying a thing before.

We bought a new TV over the weekend. Yesterday, he was supposed to set it up while I was at work, and set the old one up for the kids. After work, I went to several stores getting groceries and things we needed for the house. When I got home, naturally he hadn't done a thing. I walk in, and he asks me for help putting it together.

I said np and we got everything put together for that one and the kid's. After we were done, he mentioned that I seemed irritated when I got home. He said "you had that look on your face like 'dude, you had one job'. I'm sorry hun I was going to try to do it but with my thumb I figured I needed the help" (he smashed his thumb up pretty bad a few weeks ago)

I smiled and said yeah I was a bit irritated but I understood he needed help because of his thumb, and I did not mind helping because of that.

No dysregulation... .no freaking out. I'm not sure how I escaped it. Normally, my irritation would have been met with automatic blow back.

I guess what I am saying is I wonder because he's trying... .because he's self-aware... .maybe some of that bad feeling/icky stuff is transferring in other ways... .IE the self-punishment?

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, it is progress.

Yes, it is slow.

How long did you spend learning not to JADE at him? 

And yes... .when you change your game up, and refuse to play your traditional role in the messed up pattern that the two of you had... .it upsets things, and he's gonna have to do SOMETHING different eventually.

Often it is a change for the better. 

Just accept that things are happening... .don't let yourself go to crazy worrying about what it all means. It will be more interesting when he figures out something and tells you what he thinks it means.

[ColdEthyl]

Yes, it is progress.

Yes, it is slow.

How long did you spend learning not to JADE at him? 

And yes... .when you change your game up, and refuse to play your traditional role in the messed up pattern that the two of you had... .it upsets things, and he's gonna have to do SOMETHING different eventually.

Often it is a change for the better. 

Just accept that things are happening... .don't let yourself go to crazy worrying about what it all means. It will be more interesting when he figures out something and tells you what he thinks it means.

It's been a year of learning not to JADE... .and I still do it sometimes. Though... .I am learning now when I JADE, I quickly switch tactics once I hear what I have done.

In regards to my H... .part of me feels like the more I can understand, the more I can do what I need to do to help our r/s. You are right though, GK. If I keep putting him on a slide under a microscope... .I'm going to shift from being a wife to him to just studying him. I cannot let my curiosity and interest in  mental health cloud my marriage.

It's one of my banes... .I always want to know the how's and why's of everything. I do in fact drive my own self crazy with it. One of those things to talk to a T about hee hee

[Grey Kitty]

It's been a year of learning not to JADE... .and I still do it sometimes. Though... .I am learning now when I JADE, I quickly switch tactics once I hear what I have done.

Uhm, you are the "more healthy" one, the one taking the emotional lead here.

Don't expect him to make significant progress faster than you did, or respond well to your progress at a faster rate.

 I know that isn't very encouraging.

And that is why you do so much better by working on yourself--you get to set the pace!

[waverider]

It's been a year of learning not to JADE... .and I still do it sometimes. Though... .I am learning now when I JADE, I quickly switch tactics once I hear what I have done.

It is unlikely you will ever get all the appropriate responses instinctively right every time. The most important thing is that you see the dynamics happening and can prevent it escalating from there. In fact the more you are able to redirect, the more you will come off the defensive and always on guard for messing up. This greatly reduces stress and fear of potential issues. You will relax.

Think of it this way when the poo used to hit the fan you used to try cleaning it whilst it is still running. Now when it hits you move the fan rather than have it blow in your face. Once you know this you dont get over occupied trying to avoid it happening in the first place.

In regards to my H... .part of me feels like the more I can understand, the more I can do what I need to do to help our r/s. You are right though, GK. If I keep putting him on a slide under a microscope... .I'm going to shift from being a wife to him to just studying him. I cannot let my curiosity and interest in  mental health cloud my marriage.

It's one of my banes... .I always want to know the how's and why's of everything. I do in fact drive my own self crazy with it. One of those things to talk to a T about hee hee

Obsession with coping with this disorder is common, it starts first with relief at having found something recognized. Then scoring a few goals after applying new tools makes you feel good and you rise to the challenge. Belief that you may be able to fix things and make a great improvement in everyones lot validates you. It can almost become an obsessive hobby. It can take over your life... .

But one day the novelty will wear off and you will find you have almost self imposed the disorder as an override on your life. This can bring a resentment at all the time you have wasted when you could have been doing something else.

The point being the aim is to remove the overbearing impact BPD can have, not to simply shift the focus while keeping it center stage. The disorder will be there long after your "interest" in it has waned.

[Jessica84]

I'll confess I'm also guilty of obsessing, scanning for cues, studying his weird behavior, trying to interpret it like a mad scientist and always trying to react "properly"... I also get impatient with him. Like waverider says, this can all lead to resentment. At least I think he means that if we over-invest ourselves into studying their disorder, we can resent making all this effort only to witness the lack of progress on their part?

[waverider]

I'll confess I'm also guilty of obsessing, scanning for cues, studying his weird behavior, trying to interpret it like a mad scientist and always trying to react "properly"... I also get impatient with him. Like waverider says, this can all lead to resentment. At least I think he means that if we over-invest ourselves into studying their disorder, we can resent making all this effort only to witness the lack of progress on their part?

Pretty well sums it up, you end up feeling like you are wasting your time dragging a lead weight. Eventually it takes its toll.

Focusing on your own life whilst keeping an eye on theirs is healthier. As a result of this I stopped reading about it and attending local support groups. Participating in this forum is as much as I am willing to devout now. I would rather focus on where and when I am next going fishing than which book on BPD I should buy next    . My time is evenly spent between my hobby forum and here. This does not dominate, and I wont let it

[Grey Kitty]

Think of it this way when the poo used to hit the fan you used to try cleaning it whilst it is still running. Now when it hits you move the fan rather than have it blow in your face. Once you know this you dont get over occupied trying to avoid it happening in the first place.

That image is absolutely priceless! I needed the laugh too!

[Jessica84]

I'll confess I'm also guilty of obsessing, scanning for cues, studying his weird behavior, trying to interpret it like a mad scientist and always trying to react "properly"... I also get impatient with him. Like waverider says, this can all lead to resentment. At least I think he means that if we over-invest ourselves into studying their disorder, we can resent making all this effort only to witness the lack of progress on their part?

Pretty well sums it up, you end up feeling like you are wasting your time dragging a lead weight. Eventually it takes its toll.

Focusing on your own life whilst keeping an eye on theirs is healthier. As a result of this I stopped reading about it and attending local support groups. Participating in this forum is as much as I am willing to devout now. I would rather focus on where and when I am next going fishing than which book on BPD I should buy next    . My time is evenly spent between my hobby forum and here. This does not dominate, and I wont let it

You're right. That's the healthy approach. Best to take it in small doses. I read up on it periodically as a reminder to myself not to take him so personally. I have a full life and plenty of other things to focus on. My problem is I deal with so many different personalities at work it's easy to forget what I've learned about BPD and how to relate best to him, in particular. What works for so many others tends to go berzerk with him. And I stand there, scratching my head... which fuels the need to understand...

I wish I lived near water. Fishing sounds like a lot more fun!

[Cat Familiar]

Waverider, you have such a pithy way of expressing complex concepts! Thanks 

I've recently discovered that my interest in learning more about BPD is waning, probably as a result of my life being much calmer with my husband. And I've gone through the stages of grief of recognizing that he has a mental illness and it's not my job to "cure" him.

So I've gotten more interested in other things and if he wants to join me, then that's icing on the cake. But I'm not putting my life on hold anymore, trying to make him better.

I scanned this topic a few times, wondering what I could contribute to the "self punishment" thread. Then it dawned on me that months ago when he used to get dysregulated and I would try to use logic to "talk him down" that he would get so angry that he would punch himself in the head. It was horrifying to witness. I'm glad that I've nearly forgotten about those times. And I know that it is using the lessons that has helped me diffuse these volatile situations, as I no longer add fuel to the fire, trying to "help" him.

[ColdEthyl]

Waverider has a gift, that's for sure.

Everyone here makes very good points. I've noticed a lot of us nons tend to fall into this same trap. We are captivated by the disorder.

I need to find a healthy balance. My interests before I met him were online gaming... .which in itself is an escape from reality. (it was for me, at any rate) I will not go back to that... .even though I miss it. The lifestyle consumed me, and I wish to be healthier. The truth is... .I have no idea what I would like to do. I don't even think I have a clear picture of who I am. I've never lived alone, and I haven't lived in an environment where I wasn't always taking care of someone else.

[ydrys017]

I'll confess I'm also guilty of obsessing, scanning for cues, studying his weird behavior, trying to interpret it like a mad scientist and always trying to react "properly"... I also get impatient with him. Like waverider says, this can all lead to resentment. At least I think he means that if we over-invest ourselves into studying their disorder, we can resent making all this effort only to witness the lack of progress on their part?

Pretty well sums it up, you end up feeling like you are wasting your time dragging a lead weight. Eventually it takes its toll.

Focusing on your own life whilst keeping an eye on theirs is healthier. As a result of this I stopped reading about it and attending local support groups. Participating in this forum is as much as I am willing to devout now. I would rather focus on where and when I am next going fishing than which book on BPD I should buy next    . My time is evenly spent between my hobby forum and here. This does not dominate, and I wont let it

Thank you, this was great to read and has helped me understand why I've been feeling a lot of anger at my uBPDw over the last 6-8 months.  I've been a student of the disorder since I learned about it in May of last year, and like Jessica I've been hypervigilant for clues, signs, innuendos, and trying to ascertain the proper remedy - to little avail.  Then, during periods of somewhat 'calm' (approx 1 week / month) I would feel quite angry because things seemed a little better and there was no reason for it.  Now, I too have decided to resume the hobbies and activities that I enjoy, and try to accept that the rages (and all that goes with them) will happen - and I will not be able to prevent them, only get out of the way.  If she decides to finally go through with her divorce threats - so be it.  Why waste my life cowering.  So, I'm taking figure skating lessons with my D9, coaching S7's baseball team, and will continue to crew chief S13's race car - among the many other sports and activities that we enjoy!  I am blessed to have a good income, so I'm going to spend it with / on my family before it's too late.  I don't want a pile of money in the bank and a stack of regrets!

[ColdEthyl]

I'll confess I'm also guilty of obsessing, scanning for cues, studying his weird behavior, trying to interpret it like a mad scientist and always trying to react "properly"... I also get impatient with him. Like waverider says, this can all lead to resentment. At least I think he means that if we over-invest ourselves into studying their disorder, we can resent making all this effort only to witness the lack of progress on their part?

Pretty well sums it up, you end up feeling like you are wasting your time dragging a lead weight. Eventually it takes its toll.

Focusing on your own life whilst keeping an eye on theirs is healthier. As a result of this I stopped reading about it and attending local support groups. Participating in this forum is as much as I am willing to devout now. I would rather focus on where and when I am next going fishing than which book on BPD I should buy next    . My time is evenly spent between my hobby forum and here. This does not dominate, and I wont let it

Thank you, this was great to read and has helped me understand why I've been feeling a lot of anger at my uBPDw over the last 6-8 months.  I've been a student of the disorder since I learned about it in May of last year, and like Jessica I've been hypervigilant for clues, signs, innuendos, and trying to ascertain the proper remedy - to little avail.  Then, during periods of somewhat 'calm' (approx 1 week / month) I would feel quite angry because things seemed a little better and there was no reason for it.  Now, I too have decided to resume the hobbies and activities that I enjoy, and try to accept that the rages (and all that goes with them) will happen - and I will not be able to prevent them, only get out of the way.  If she decides to finally go through with her divorce threats - so be it.  Why waste my life cowering.  So, I'm taking figure skating lessons with my D9, coaching S7's baseball team, and will continue to crew chief S13's race car - among the many other sports and activities that we enjoy!  I am blessed to have a good income, so I'm going to spend it with / on my family before it's too late.  I don't want a pile of money in the bank and a stack of regrets!

Good for you! *applause*  

[ydrys017]

Thanks, I need to continually talk/remind myself to follow through, practice mindfulness, not take it all so personally, always have an exit strategy... .and buffer the kids so they have a sense of normality.  Tough go most days, as is for everyone here.  

Still processing the 'stages of grief' as referenced by 'Cat Familiar', I move between them quite frequently - probably another reason for my anger moments... .

[Jessica84]

It's sort of a catch-22. If we don't keep BPD on the front burner we can get caught off-guard and forget when/how to apply the tools and lessons, start JADEing all over the place, take their comments personally, and react poorly. If we do keep it on the front burner, we can get wear ourselves out, then resent them for it.

It's difficult to find a healthy balance. I would like to get to the point where all the lessons are completely second nature - like going into SET on auto-pilot! Unfortunately, I'm not there yet. Not even close.

[waverider]

It's sort of a catch-22. If we don't keep BPD on the front burner we can get caught off-guard and forget when/how to apply the tools and lessons, start JADEing all over the place, take their comments personally, and react poorly. If we do keep it on the front burner, we can get wear ourselves out, then resent them for it.

It's difficult to find a healthy balance. I would like to get to the point where all the lessons are completely second nature - like going into SET on auto-pilot! Unfortunately, I'm not there yet. Not even close.

This why you take the lessons on board as your life skill lessons. They become the 'new you" which you apply automatically to everyone all the time, regardless of BPD or not.

JADEing all over the place, take their comments personally, and react poorly

Eventually this becomes alien behavior on your part.

The natural you becomes not triggering, and less easily triggered. less worried and stressed when it does happened.

When there is a fire you call the fire brigade, you dont need them permenently stationed outside your house just in case there is a fire. Have more faith in your own smoke detectors.

[flowerpath]

This discussion is encouraging and is a real wake-up call for me.  It’s good to be alert to what is going on here, but I can think of far better ways to spend the rest of my life than captivated with and focused on all of the facets of BPD when a majority of my life has already been weighed down by it. 

To take these lessons, change your own habits, and put on a new you broadens the concept of taking care of yourself. 

I feel like somebody just cut me loose!

[Cat Familiar]

This why you take the lessons on board as your life skill lessons. They become the 'new you" which you apply automatically to everyone all the time, regardless of BPD or not.

The natural you becomes not triggering, and less easily triggered. less worried and stressed when it does happened.

Yes, I've been applying the lessons with everyone and it's getting a lot easier to remember what to do when my husband starts dysregulating. Currently I catch myself starting to JADE and I can switch course and stop immediately, but it's funny how the ego wants to protest and defend it's innocence when accused of bad intentions. Now I note that and move on because defending myself only has made things worse.

I'm still working on SET. If I'm not careful, it can sound clunky and forced. But when I can find the right words and it works, it's amazing!

The biggest issue for me was stopping the JADEing, because it was such an ingrained habit, originating in my FOO, where I was expected to provide an excuse or justification for my behavior and thoughts (or at least that's what I thought was expected of me).

[waverider]

The biggest issue for me was stopping the JADEing, because it was such an ingrained habit, originating in my FOO, where I was expected to provide an excuse or justification for my behavior and thoughts (or at least that's what I thought was expected of me).

Stopping the JADE was the most empowering for me especially with others not just pwBPD. Felt like it gave me my pride back, it comes with self belief in your own rights. Stops you being bullied. In hindsight it always felt like self sabotage.