Self Punishment

[Depression = 72% of members]

Stopping the JADE was the most empowering for me especially with others not just pwBPD. Felt like it gave me my pride back, it comes with self belief in your own rights. Stops you being bullied. In hindsight it always felt like self sabotage.

That is such a good point. Having been brought up (or should I say indoctrinated) by a mother with BPD, I didn't feel that I had any rights or privacy and I definitely was bullied by schoolmates. I was expected to be an open book and tell my mother everything and confess all my transgressions. That was the origin of JADE for me. It wasn't like I was an individual with personal rights and freedom--I was a miniature version of my parents and I was expected to have the same wants and needs and if I didn't, I better have a good excuse for myself. (Good thing I turned into a rebellious teenager or I would have been totally engulfed by my mother.)

I think this lack of individuation may be similar to the development of BPD in people. My husband used to say that he felt like "he didn't exist" which was really perplexing to me until I learned more about BPD. It's a different manifestation, but similar in that the "self" is not fully allowed expression or understanding and undoubtedly most people with BPD have a history of being shamed as children. Even now he often doesn't know what he thinks unless he has someone else's opinion to go by (but often mine doesn't count for much).

Thoughts?

[Cat Familiar]

Stopping the JADE was the most empowering for me especially with others not just pwBPD. Felt like it gave me my pride back, it comes with self belief in your own rights. Stops you being bullied. In hindsight it always felt like self sabotage.

That is such a good point. Having been brought up (or should I say indoctrinated) by a mother with BPD, I didn't feel that I had any rights or privacy and I definitely was bullied by schoolmates. I was expected to be an open book and tell my mother everything and confess all my transgressions. That was the origin of JADE for me. It wasn't like I was an individual with personal rights and freedom--I was a miniature version of my parents and I was expected to have the same wants and needs and if I didn't, I better have a good excuse for myself. (Good thing I turned into a rebellious teenager or I would have been totally engulfed by my mother.)

I think this lack of individuation may be similar to the development of BPD in people. My husband used to say that he felt like "he didn't exist" which was really perplexing to me until I learned more about BPD. It's a different manifestation, but similar in that the "self" is not fully allowed expression or understanding and undoubtedly most people with BPD have a history of being shamed as children. Even now he often doesn't know what he thinks unless he has someone else's opinion to go by (but often mine doesn't count for much).

Thoughts?

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[Grey Kitty]

Stopping JADEing was huge for me too.

What I noticed was that it is a natural thing to try to do when somebody is upset at you... .and that when you do it, nothing gets better. Whether it is to a pwBPD, your boss, or the state trouper who stopped you for speeding, nothing good comes from it. 

One time I was pulled over for turning right with a rolling stop at a stop sign. He asked me if there was a reason why I didn't come to a complete stop. My answer was something like "There is no good reason not to come to a complete stop." with a bit of a sheepish look. I did get off with a warning.

[waverider]

Lack of self is the end product of not being allowed to develop your own interests or beliefs to the point that you know they are yours, rather than just a reflection of others

.

Without these beliefs you have no basis to erect boundaries, as nothing is significantly important. If your beliefs are a reflection of others, then they change as you move through relationships. They are not deep seated enough to remain. As these adopted beliefs form the core of bonding in new relationships, when they wear off, as they are superficial, so the bond breaks down.

Sometimes rebellious people will form beliefs simply because they are opposite to what they are being told, not because of any deep seated reason. Hence highly opinionated people can be found to have no sense of self either.

Lack of self belief can also translate to lake of motivation and effort

Self confidence people have individually developed beliefs and are not reliant on anyone else. They tend not to JADE by nature as they are not trying convince anyone else. They just believe, and they just are. They don't sell their belief's. They don't do drama and don't make a fuss

Most people fall in the middle between these two extremes.

[Jessica84]

So I've been practicing SET with him (and nons alike) and here's what it looks like:

SET with a non - show compassion, how you care or understand, or want to help, and that's usually enough. They feel validated and all is right in the world.

SET with uBPDbf - 99 ways to get it wrong, 1 way to get it right. Can't get enough validation when I do get it right. Gobbles it up like candy and comes back wanting more. Gets pissed off or gives me the silent treatment if I accidentally invalidate.

Same goes for apologizing... .

With a non - be sincere, own my mistake, move on. Nons accept it more readily. Foot-in-mouth blunders are easily forgiven, often laughed off.

With BPDbf - be sincere, own my mistake, get my words twisted and used against me, get silent treatment or a rage, leave and wait him out. Foot-in-mouth comments are never forgiven, but eventually forgotten.

[waverider]

Like everything less is more. same with JADE & SET. The tools are there to oil the works not fix everything. Apply and move on, dont set a new precedent by overdoing it.

If in doubt focus on non invalidating (even if this means saying nothing) rather than over validating. Most importantly dont get sucked into repeating or even rephrasing any validation, and they will try to get you to do this. ":)o you like it?", "do you think its nice?" " does it look good?'... Answer it once dont keep reanswering, or it will keep going until you get it wrong.

One invalidation cancels all before, nothing more frustrating than falling for that one.

[Jessica84]

Omg yes. The ":)o you like it?" ":)id I do good?" "What did you like best?" questions are exhausting! And none of these are even about sex!   

How do you answer these only ONCE? I get it asked 20 different ways! What he needs validating is not always clear.

Example: He writes a paper. Wants me to read it. Then asks me what my favorite parts are. Do I like the title? Should he leave out this part or that part? Is it too long? Then asks if he should re-write it, no matter how much I tell him how good it is. Finally, I have to find some minor criticism for him to be satisfied that I've given it enough thought. Weird part is how he sees this as validating - I guess because HE thinks something about it needed to be fixed? So telling him it's wonderful is invalidating to him?

Lately, he's hit me repeatedly with this question... ."does it make me look weak if I don't respond to (the latest person he's painted black)?" I've said no, I wouldn't, no way, not at all, nein, nah, naw man, nuh-uh... .in practically every language. Finally I told him: "Look, I know you feel weak. You feel like you should respond, but I think it takes strength not to. That makes you the bigger person. I'm proud of you."  He stopped asking. 

It's hard focusing on not being invalidating when he won't let me rest until he gets the validation he seeks.

[waverider]

Example: He writes a paper. Wants me to read it. Then asks me what my favorite parts are. Do I like the title? Should he leave out this part or that part? Is it too long? Then asks if he should re-write it, no matter how much I tell him how good it is. Finally, I have to find some minor criticism for him to be satisfied that I've given it enough thought. Weird part is how he sees this as validating - I guess because HE thinks something about it needed to be fixed? So telling him it's wonderful is invalidating to him?

"I can't see anything obvious ,which part do you think could be done better?"

Lately, he's hit me repeatedly with this question... ."does it make me look weak if I don't respond to (the latest person he's painted black)?" I've said no, I wouldn't, no way, not at all, nein, nah, naw man, nuh-uh... .in practically every language. Finally I told him: "Look, I know you feel weak. You feel like you should respond, but I think it takes strength not to. That makes you the bigger person. I'm proud of you."  He stopped asking. 

It's hard focusing on not being invalidating when he won't let me rest until he gets the validation he seeks.

'You dont have to prove anything to anyone, why do you feel you have to?"

Adding a question directs the conversation forward so he is now answering a question, rather than just restating same one. Asking a question shows you are paying attention, are interested (validating), by not providing "answers" you are avoiding invalidating (can't answer wrong if there is no answer).

Its not always an answer they want but your interest.

[Jessica84]

Aha! I see what you're saying now. That makes sense.

Can I carry you around in my pocket til I get the hang of this?

I'm still winging it... .

[ColdEthyl]

Lack of self is the end product of not being allowed to develop your own interests or beliefs to the point that you know they are yours, rather than just a reflection of others

.

Without these beliefs you have no basis to erect boundaries, as nothing is significantly important. If your beliefs are a reflection of others, then they change as you move through relationships. They are not deep seated enough to remain. As these adopted beliefs form the core of bonding in new relationships, when they wear off, as they are superficial, so the bond breaks down.

Sometimes rebellious people will form beliefs simply because they are opposite to what they are being told, not because of any deep seated reason. Hence highly opinionated people can be found to have no sense of self either.

Lack of self belief can also translate to lake of motivation and effort

Self confidence people have individually developed beliefs and are not reliant on anyone else. They tend not to JADE by nature as they are not trying convince anyone else. They just believe, and they just are. They don't sell their belief's. They don't do drama and don't make a fuss

Most people fall in the middle between these two extremes.

Holy craploa. I posted earlier about not really knowing who I am and BOOM Waverider drops some mad knowledge on me. Thinking back, some things my ex and I liked together I no longer like, and I did pick up some new likes with new H that I didn't like before. I also am highly opinionated and vocal about it.

I like your question, Jessica84. I have fallen into that trap as well. Waverider's suggestion sounds like just the ticket!

Why am I 35 years old and just now learned how to communicate with people... BPD or otherwise? ugh >.<

[waverider]

Why am I 35 years old and just now learned how to communicate with people... BPD or otherwise? ugh >.<

We never stop learning, its all relative. As long as arrogance or naivety doesn't stop us progressing, or even regressing, its all good and rewarding.

"Learn a little and live a lot each day and life will be good"

[ColdEthyl]

Aha! I see what you're saying now. That makes sense.

Can I carry you around in my pocket til I get the hang of this?

I'm still winging it... .

@Jessica84 PocketRider TM2015 make it happen ! Let's go on kickstarter!

@Waverider thank you, you are right as usual!

[Cole]

If in doubt focus on non invalidating (even if this means saying nothing) rather than over validating. Most importantly dont get sucked into repeating or even rephrasing any validation, and they will try to get you to do this. ":)o you like it?", "do you think its nice?" " does it look good?'... Answer it once dont keep reanswering, or it will keep going until you get it wrong.

One invalidation cancels all before, nothing more frustrating than falling for that one.

Been away for a few days and just came back to find this one from waverider. I have fallen for that one too many times! Good advise.