Decision Making and Getting Things Out

[StrongDadOf2]

My wife has BPD, but the therapists are unable to officially diagnose her because telling her would most likely cause her to run away from therapy and leave her with no professional mental health support.  In our couple's therapy, the therapist took me alone one session and laid out that I should seek out a support group for spouses married to a person with BPD.  After reading through this site, the "Walking on Eggshells" book, and a few other resources, I can now recognize what all those behaviors I've been tolerating for years are.

We have two children.  One in middle school, who is demonized by my spouse.  He suffers from an anxiety disorder that manifests itself as verbally explosive.  Watching him and my wife interact (if she even acknowledges him) is like watching a train wreck; they just light each other up... .until she changes parenting styles on him, so he gets more anxious because he has no idea what to expect from her.  On a few occasions, she has yelled out, "I'd rather be dead than be his mom."  She refuses to go to family therapy with my son's therapist because she challenged the way she treated him in one session, which she left mid-way.  My son's therapist said that she does not foresee any improvement in his anxiety levels until things stabilize at home, which won't happen while my wife is involved in his care.

She idolizes our preschooler.  Syrupy and enmeshed.

Our pastor has told me outright that the trajectory of our family is headed for imploding and that her heart breaks for our son.  When a pastor recommends to look for a way to separate with the kids... .   No option here is easy.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

  Welcome StrongDadOf2,

You are certainly in a difficult situation.    People on this board seem to agree that nothing positive is gained by telling a loved one that they have BPD. It's a difficult path, even with therapy. I'm glad that you've found this site. Please take a look at the lessons on the right side of this page. Learning how the recognize the beginnings of dysregulated behavior and strategies for not making things worse have helped all of us here.

It must be terribly worrying and frustrating to see how your wife's behavior impacts your son and it's also damaging how she treats your younger child. She's painted the older one black and the younger one white--which is an example of splitting, a very common behavioral pattern with BPD.

I'm glad that you have support of therapists and your pastor. Nothing is easy about dealing with this disease. Please keep posting here and tell us more of your story.

[StrongDadOf2]

Thanks for the welcome and support, Cat Familiar.  This site has s much information, that it's going to be difficult to digest it all in a weekend binge of reading!

I'm sure everyone who starts here has a long story. To help fill in the rest:

I married an extremely loving woman 8 years ago.  Fantastic in all ways and we were so attentive to each other's needs.  Yeah, she got frustrated and left in the middle of conversations every so often, but it didn't seem too bad at the time.  That situation where the clerk in the checkout line pisses her off because he takes a minute too long, and she just yells, abandons the cart, and leaves the store?  That's just a weird personality quirk.

Eventually, my parents became more evil than Satan to her.  In order for our marriage to continue, I had to break most contact with them.  When my son was between 6 and 9, she would completely withdraw from him for hours a day, one summer forcing him to do chores and homework a minimum of 3 hours daily before he was allowed to play (but only play with mom).  Weekends were no better, and she would rage about any minor slight, locking herself in her room for days at a time.  When she emerges from her cocoon, she's right back to happy.

She battled cancer for two years, and I spent every waking moment coordinating her care and care for the family.  I completely emptied myself every day for them.  In therapy, she told me that I "never took care of [her] when [she] had cancer, because [she] didn't really exist at that time."  She was very surprised that the statement made me break down and cry.

After years of mental abuse to myself and son, draining myself through cancer, her re-emergence with more intense and frequent rages, and no acknowledgement on her part of the increased emotional needs of the family, I don't think I can keep this person in my life anymore.  I'm trying the best I can with the strategies I am learning in therapy and here, but I don't think I can put my son through this any more than he already has or watch my young daughter grow up with her intense emotional fluctuations.

[OffRoad]

It must be hard for you to find out that all your efforts weren't perceived as you taking care of her. Her own words that "she didn't really exist at that time". tells how she felt about herself. You couldn't have taken care of her because she didn't exist.

The binge reading so so worth it on this site. This is one of the few places that doesn't just paint the BPD as black, and can help you figure out if you will be able to make it work or not. You can't fix her, but you can fix how you interact with her.

My concern would be that the only reason your wife gets along with your preschooler is her age. When your daughter starts growing up, the same thing that happened with your son will probably happen with your daughter eventually. My kids were where I always drew the line, but I had the advantage of being the mom at home.

How long has she been going to therapy? Are you seeing any improvements?

I have to chuckle at the "weird personality quirk". I wonder how many of us explained away telltale behavior as a weird personality quirk?

[StrongDadOf2]

My concern would be that the only reason your wife gets along with your preschooler is her age. When your daughter starts growing up, the same thing that happened with your son will probably happen with your daughter eventually. My kids were where I always drew the line, but I had the advantage of being the mom at home.

How long has she been going to therapy? Are you seeing any improvements?

I finally got her to agree to therapy in May of last year.  She leaves mid-session regularly.  I have not seen any improvement in her, but I've been slowly gaining skills in reflecting her opinions and asserting boundaries.

The therapists are also concerned that, as our daughter becomes more independent, she'll eventually be demonized, too.

I'm mostly stay-at-home dad (only work 24 hours/week).  She unexpectedly and spontaneously chose to go part time a few months ago, too, taking our income down 20%.  I feel it was a vindictive move since I asked her sister to come into town to help out with the kids for a few days while I was out of town.

[Notwendy]

"I have to chuckle at the "weird personality quirk". I wonder how many of us explained away telltale behavior as a weird personality quirk?"

Yes, but it is also easy to do this when someone is very high functioning and holds it together for everyone, and the issues only affect intimate relationships.

Having grown up with a severely affected mother with BPD, something on the level of a personality quirk would not stand out to me.

i'm concerned for the children as well. I don't know if leaving is the right answer or not. I think the answer to that is very variable and something each family needs to work out for themselves.

The younger child may or may not be demonized. There is harm to being either the "black child" or the "white child". In dysfunctional families, children often take on a role that stablizes the family in some way but isn't really age appropriate or healthy for the child. I was mainly the black child,  and this benefitted the family by making me the blame for my mother's dysfunction.

In such families, there isn't a concept of a child being their own person and the parents assuming the role of being the ones to help the child become his or her own person. The child is seen as an extension of the disordered parent- and is either supposed to make them look good, or be the one to blame and project on. or both. The white child is the one they think reflects the good, the black is the other. However, in each case, boundaries are violated.

[JohnLove]

Hello StrongDadOf2, this is very very sad.  :'(

I am a strong Dad of 3   and my story has similarities to yours. In my case it was 8 years before we had children. Eventually I realised it was not possible OR safe for me to remain in the home after spending 20 years together. I separated from my uBPDex 7 years ago. I have now realised i was modelling an abusive relationship for my children. Nothing was under my "control" except my own behaviour.

My eldest child (now D19) has been alienated from me and I have a distant and somewhat strained relationship with her now. I gained primary care of the younger 2 (now D13 & S9) after a lengthy and repeated applications to the Federal Court.

She still to this day paints me white, then black, then white, then black to them and myself. I have been black for the past 6 months.  

Hang in there, stay strong, make good choices. I wish you (and your children) well.

[StrongDadOf2]

Thanks, NotWendy and JohnLove.  It sounds like a mixed bag when kids are involved for a long time in a BPD relationship.  I am on the fence about separating.  Staying will have lasting, long-term, negative effects on my son, leaving will most likely mean splitting custody with my daughter.  The short-term is not really all that short, since two lawyers have given me the 18 to 24 month time frame for divorce to become finalized.  That's a long time to be in limbo with the kids, and I have no clue what kind of rage will ensue on her part.  I wish I knew what all the good choices are.

Our anniversary is this week, and it's not looking good.  I want to celebrate it, but my wife keeps telling me, "There's nothing in our marriage to be happy about, but if it's important to you to celebrate it, then I'll show up."  Giving her reasons to celebrate our marriage (Because I love you! You're alive and beat cancer! We have two great kids! etc. etc.) are all shot down with, "But I don't feel like my opinion matters at all in this relationship, so none of that matters."  I internalize this to mean that I am no longer letting her control my actions (especially when it comes to parenting the children) like I used to allow and she feels more out of control.

Recently, our daughter had an allergic reaction to a medication.  I consulted with my dad (pharmacist) on what best to do, and started getting the benedryl out to help D (age 3) with her itchy body rash.  Wife refused to let D3 take it, since my wife knows how sleepy it makes my wife.  I told her that's part of the benefit: D3 stops itching and gets some extra sleep.  "No, because I know it will make her too sleepy for a whole day, just like me!"  As if D3 is an extension of herself.  D3 has never had benedryl before.  Luckily, it turned out ok with just some ibuprophen to know down the fever and ease some of the pain.

[Notwendy]

From living with my mom- this is how I see it.

"As if D3 is an extension of herself. "

All of you are. D3 is the good. You and your son are the parts of her she doesn't like and so she projects them out of herself.

Healthy individuals have integrated all parts of themselves.

Sometimes, with things like medication or other advice, it is good to have an impartial person like a doctor or pharmacist, not related to you, speak to your wife. Taking advice from you can be interpreted as an invalidation- "you can't decide this". She is more likely to dig her heels in with advice from you

[Notwendy]

"Our anniversary is this week, and it's not looking good.  I want to celebrate it, but my wife keeps telling me, "There's nothing in our marriage to be happy about, but if it's important to you to celebrate it, then I'll show up."  Giving her reasons to celebrate our marriage (Because I love you! You're alive and beat cancer! We have two great kids! etc. etc.) are all shot down with, "But I don't feel like my opinion matters at all in this relationship, so none of that matters."  I internalize this to mean that I am no longer letting her control my actions (especially when it comes to parenting the children) like I used to allow and she feels more out of control."

I'm going to extrapolate on this one, coming from my own experiences. I don't think- until we read the tools and become aware of how someone with BPD interprets things- that we are aware of how much we inadvertantly hurt them. It really did puzzle me, since there was a period where my H painted me black, raged at me, ignored me, verbally abused me. Not knowing what was going on, I did everything I could to make him happy, was docile and compliant, and yet at times, he described me as being aggressive, out to get him, and having hurt him so much. This is because when he started arguing, I would JADE and JADE and JADE to try to get him to understand.

My mother wBPD has commented on how much my father invalidated her, yet I saw my father as the co-dependent person doing everything in his power to fulfill her wishes and keep her happy.

It took a long time for me to get this idea. Some of the hurt is them, we can't control how they interpret things, but some of it, we can make a change in. They see us as invalidating them every time we JADE, explain, instruct , correct, advise... .it all goes into the rabbit hole of shame and self criticism. I get this because my H can trigger shame in me when he corrects me too. ( thanks, Mom).

The first thing we can do is stop JADEing.

"There's nothing in our marriage to be happy about, but if it's important to you to celebrate it, then I'll show up." 

This is more likely that she wants you to do this, but is unhappy. She's testing you with this statement: if it's important to you to celebrate it

If you don't do something, she will conclude that your marriage is not important to you.

The tools will teach you how to validate the feeling, not necessarily the fact, but for someone with BPD, facts are feelings.

Your response was this: Giving her reasons to celebrate our marriage. What she hears is that I told him I am unhappy and wonder if the marriage is important to him and he responds with an argument that I am wrong. This is an invalidation.

So she replies to this invalidation with: "But I don't feel like my opinion matters at all in this relationship, so none of that matters"

Another response could be: I hear that you don't think our marriage has anything to be happy about. ( don't offer a counter opinion- move on to you)  Our marriage is important to me. I would like to celebrate it with you. ( hint: making "I" statements works better than "you".)

Do not feel badly about not getting this. It takes practice. You will make mistakes, but you will get it.

As to your anniversary... I think she put you on the line. It is your move to show her the marriage is important to you. Do something- from the heart if you can, without an expectation for how she should respond. I have struggled over this too- sent my mom something not wondering if she's going to be happy, or rage at it and toss it. However, she knows I sent it, and it registers. I know I sent it too, and I would feel far worse to have done something hurtful by not sending it. Keep in mind possible triggers. A night in a hotel could lead to a night of fighting. However, flowers are always good, and reservations at a nice restaurant to start with. If there is something she wants as a gift, add that too. Then- however she responds is up to her, but it is validating that you do this.

[StrongDadOf2]

NotWendy - thanks.  I had to look up JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain).  It is going to be a long road ahead for me to get this one down, but through our couple's therapy and individual therapy, I am trying.  It is just so different from any other relationship I have in my life. 

I will definitely be celebrating our anniversary, and looking forward to dinner with her.  I have very quickly learned the emotional traps she sets.

I have to wonder if my kids see me in the same codependent light.

[Notwendy]

No they don't.

I adored my dad. He was my hero. Kids don't get the whole picture. I saw him as the normal one, mom as crazy. I didn't get his part in their relationship until I went to couples T for our issues and the T pointed at me and said " you're co-dependent". For reference, I did not begin to grasp this until I was middle age myself.

That stung. I wanted her to say something to stop my H from raging at me. I wanted to scream "what about HIM!" why me? It took a lot of reading, studying, therapy to understand the interactions between two people in a couple to understand both sides of it. Growing up, I didn't want to be like my mother, and so I gravitated towards dad.

I don't think he intended it this way but he reinforced my codependent behavior. I was the black child- totally demonized, but I was a child, and I wanted love from my parents. When my mother complained to my father about me, he would tell me I had to behave for her - do whatever I had to do to keep her happy- and so, to please him, I tried my best to please mom.

As kids, we don't know what normal was. I didn't see the issues clearly until I was - quite literally- middle age and was a parent myself to see how strange my mother was at parenting in contrast. I also think it was a slippery slope. I think once the kids were grown and left home, mom became dad's main focus, and he was able to meet more of her needs, so he became more co-dependent over time.

I don't blame him. This was an older generation. There was no talk of mental illness. Dad did not have the resources and treatments available that you have today. He was doing what he thought he should do- and he took good care of her and us.

I think he was a great dad. If I am sad about anything it is that I wished he had validated me and stood up for me. This doesn't mean I wish he had left her. That was not what he chose to do. I wish he did not let her come between his role as my father to me like she did by painting me black.

I was actually, a really good kid and a good daughter. I wish I had heard more of that from him.

You're a hero to your kids and so, your validating them and caring for them goes a long way with them.

[StrongDadOf2]

I don't think he intended it this way but he reinforced my codependent behavior. I was the black child- totally demonized, but I was a child, and I wanted love from my parents. When my mother complained to my father about me, he would tell me I had to behave for her - do whatever I had to do to keep her happy- and so, to please him, I tried my best to please mom.

I ask my son to "just keep it together this time so mom doesn't get mad at both of us" more times than I ever want to.  His anxiety disorder is so heightened now that he can't stay in a regular classroom setting, and he has been moved to a school that is better suited to handle mood disorders.  She only exacerbates this at home, so much so that he is afraid to be alone at home with her, avoiding coming home until he knows I'm home, too.