PERSPECTIVES: Invalidation and the Dialectical Dilemma w/ BPD

[Parents! Get help here!]

Invalidation and the Dialectical Dilemma with BPD

The dialectal dilemma is the invalidating feeling that results when applying logical thought to emotional responses at the time of the response. When this is done by the person having the response, or by others, it results in a very invalidating and very upsetting experience.

An alternative and the principle behind dialectical behavioral therapy is for the pwBPD to have cognition (recognition when an emotional reaction is in the extreme) and then substitute an alternate behavior - doing something different and more constructive with the emotional reaction.  

The emotion is not denied.  The reaction to others is altered.

This Workshop is about understanding the internal struggles of our loved ones suffering from BPD and how we can coach them through their feelings of invalidation.

This 12 minute audio recording is a great introduction to Dialectical Behavior Therapy:

 bpdfamily.org/2011/04/untangling-internal-struggles-of.html

For this feature, let us discuss the following:

• Do you see evidence of the dialectical dilemma in your household?

• How will understanding that a person with BPD is cognitively unable to follow through with tasks during times of emotional dysregulation affect our expectations of them and our responses to them?

• Will the knowledge about how our BPD loved ones read our emotions affect our responses to them during conflict? How?

• How can we  use this new knowledge and understanding to help "BPD" loved ones?

[lbjnltx]

Invalidation and the Dialectical Dilemma with BPD

The dialectal dilemma is the invalidating feeling that results when applying logical thought to emotional responses at the time of the response. When this is done by the person having the response, or by others, it results in a very invalidating and very upsetting experience.

An alternative and the principle behind dialectical behavioral therapy is for the pwBPD to have cognition (recognition when an emotional reaction is in the extreme) and then substitute an alternate behavior - doing something different and more constructive with the emotional reaction.  

The emotion is not denied.  The reaction to others is altered.

This Workshop is about understanding the internal struggles of our loved ones suffering from BPD and how we can coach them through their feelings of invalidation.

This 12 minute audio recording is a great introduction to Dialectical Behavior Therapy:

 bpdfamily.org/2011/04/untangling-internal-struggles-of.html

For this feature, let us discuss the following:

• Do you see evidence of the dialectical dilemma in your household?

• How will understanding that a person with BPD is cognitively unable to follow through with tasks during times of emotional dysregulation affect our expectations of them and our responses to them?

• Will the knowledge about how our BPD loved ones read our emotions affect our responses to them during conflict? How?

• How can we  use this new knowledge and understanding to help "BPD" loved ones?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Wow - this was good information!  

It is like a light bulb went off for me and I can see now how I must have been doing a lot of invalidating with my dd35, not only when she was a child, but recently as well!   :'(

I have been thinking about doing a letter like from Valerie Porr's book... .and now I know what I need to say to my beautiful daughter.  It all makes sense to me.  

This is especially eye opening because I recently read the book Strength Finders - a work project where people in our department identified their strengths.  Mine came out to be very business/manager type strengths such as responsibility, logical, analytical, etc.  At the time, I felt somewhat off balance because other people were identified as having more people strengths that were related to emotions.  My strengths are good for the work place since I am the manager of our department... .NOT so good for relating to a daughter with BPD!  Like they say OMG!  

I see where I need some work here.  I know I can't feel guilty about all this - but I do feel sad that my communication style actually was cause for pain in my dd.

[Grammy17201]

  Quote: "The dialectal dilemma is the invalidating feeling that results when applying logical thought to emotional responses at the time of the response. When this is done by the person having the response, or by others, it results in a very invalidating and very upsetting experience."

As I thought over the 4 questions below, I knew that I couldn't have answered them a year ago.  My first reaction to the definition above would have been a negative "Oh, another way for me to feel guilty!"  I guess it's part of the process: realizing and accepting that I was causing my dBPDd32 pain without even knowing it.  While still in the beginning stages of this journey, the only way I could even function, the only way I could focus on accomplishing anything, like paying bills, cleaning house, etc, would be to settle back into feeling my anger and disbelief at my daughter for some of her vindictive behaviors.  I wasn't ready for anything else.

As I researched books, and other reading materials to help me make sense of it all, I found so many of them "blame the mother, blame the upbringing" for the very existence of BPD, with no mention of DNA, or heredity.  When I would read that dreaded cause of all this strife, I would have to put that book down, and move on to another.  I remember thinking "Why are these authors bashing the parents?  Many times, we are the only people who will stick around!  We are ones who are reading your book, Mr./Ms. Author, why are you adding to our misery with your blame?  You could at least acknowledge our pain, and our faultless lack of understanding of the disease, as you attribute it all to us!"

Yeah, Bingo, there it is - acknowledge our pain, or validate.  A conversational skill that is welcomed, warranted, even necessary much more often that I realized, and with everyone, not only the mentally ill.  But, back to my own struggles with guilt: it took time to forgive myself.  In time, I realized that this guilt trip was keeping me from moving forward.  It kept me from focusing on things that could help my relationship with my daughter - like learning to validate.  I always knew I had done my best under the circumstances, yet, it took time to really internalize that. It simply takes time.

1) Do you see evidence of the dialectical dilemma in your household?

Oh, my Goodness, Yes.  That's why dBPDd32's responses never made sense to me.  Her responses were so illogical.  Immediately after an interaction with dBPDd32, I always found myself scratching my head and thinking to myself "What just happened here?"  Also, thinking back, the more stress dBPDd32 was having to deal with, the more illogical and emotional she would become.  And, so, I would work harder to pile on more logic.  And, you guessed it, she would get worse.

I remember one time in counseling - the counselor said "You two keep missing each other!  It's like you are speaking two different languages."  At the time, that made NO sense at all.  Now, it does.

I do remember times when I did validate my dBPDd32's feelings, yet gave no solution to her problem.  I can't remember what the specific issues were, or what I said, yet I do remember clearly the look on her face - it was a look as if to say "There!  I AM ok.  Mom said so.  Mom understands.  I don't have to worry about that anymore."  It was a righteous, justified, vindicated and satisfied look.  Being visual, I remember that expression on her face, even though I can't remember any of the words that were spoken.  And, I remember thinking "but I didn't offer you any solution, why do you look so satisfied?"  Now, I get it.

2) How will understanding that a person with BPD is cognitively unable to follow through with tasks during times of emotional dysregulation affect our expectations of them and our responses to them?

One would not expect a person in a wheelchair to get up and walk.  No one would respond disapprovingly to that person because they cannot move their legs.  If only BPD was as easy to recognize, and as acceptable to have by the general public.  

Of course, now that I know my daughter has this diagnosis, and now that I know more about it, I won't expect her to "always know exactly where she put her car keys" especially when she's upset.  I wouldn't voice my impatience with her during the frantic search for her keys.  Yet, if a BP throws a temper tantrum because it's her turn to do the dishes, how does one know if she is really upset about something else, or if she is just being lazy?  We can't know of all the things that upset them in their lives unless we are with them 24/7, or unless they tell us about it.  Yes, knowing the BP well would give us a pretty good idea, enough to make an educated guess, but we could never be correct all of the time.

3) Will the knowledge about how our BPD loved ones read our emotions affect our responses to them during conflict? How?

My dBPDd32 would often make it clear to me that she knew exactly how I was feeling, and she'd be right.  She knew my feelings better than I did.  She would say it showed on my face.  So, I thought Everyone knew how I was feeling, I thought my facial expressions showed my feelings more than most people's!  Now I know differently.  Because of this new knowledge, I will be quicker to articulate my feelings with others, and not assume that they can read me as easily as my BP.

So, what to do when you disapprove of a mere 10% of a task completed by your BP?  You KNOW that, to the BP, the 90% approval won't matter, the BP will focus on the 10%, and, being able to read emotions so well, it may be difficult for the Non to hide that disapproving 10% from the BP.  And, Should Non's have to work to hide the negative emotions from the BP?  Is that fair?  Is that moral?  Should Non's never say anything about that 10%, even though they responded primarily and favorably to the 90%?

Personally, I don't want to have to try to hide my true emotions from a loved one.  It would feel insincere. I think this is where total acceptance (radical acceptance?) comes into play.  Accept the bad with the good in your BP, and you won't feel that negative 10% in the first place.  Now, this is easy to say, hard to do.  Being a perfectionist, this is especially hard to do!  In working on accepting ALL of my dBPDd32, the bad with the good, I find that I am also able to let go of some of my own perfectionism.  So, all the soul searching and hard emotional work helps us Non's too, along with our BPd's.  Now, that's a win-win!  

4) How can we  use this new knowledge and understanding to help "BPD" loved ones?

It will help me when I interact with her.  I'd been focusing on boundaries - figuring out what they should be, specific consequences, drawing my line in the sand.  (I've also realized that my boundaries may change or evolve.  If a boundary isn't working for me, I, no one else, can modify it.)  Now that I am comfortable with having boundaries, and am familiar with how they work, I am ready to move on, to use this new knowledge.  I will practice validation, with everyone.  It's a good thing, needed by all.  BPd's need more of it, and more often.  I will no longer take her lying, meanness, and other negative behaviors so personally, even when they are aimed straight at me.  And I will work towards accepting her imperfections more completely, as I will work to accept my own.

[lbjnltx]

Do you see evidence of the Dialectical Dilemma in your household?

Most of us have the same struggles that pwBPD have, what makes it a disorder is the prevalence, intensity, and persistence of those struggles. For example, we have all engaged in black and white thinking at times, we have all been overwhelmed with our emotions at times,  we all have to some degree a fear of abandonment.

Validation did not come easily to me either.  It is something I had to learn to do.  For myself, as a mom, I was preoccupied with trying to solve the problem that was causing my daughter so much pain.  I was giving advice (it's not that big a deal, think about it like this... ., why can't you just do it and get it over with, etc... ) and not focusing on what she really needed... .because I didn't understand what was going on internally for her.

Will the knowledge about how our BPD loved ones read our emotions affect our responses to them during conflict? How?

Since you are aware of your sensitivity then the chances are high that your daughter is aware of them as well.  How will you use that to help resolve conflict between the two of you in the future?

How will understanding that a person with BPD is cognitively unable to follow through with tasks during times of emotional dysregulation affect our expectations of them and our responses to them?

After listening to this audio, I am now aware that the dysregulated state and slow return to baseline will most likely affect the next interaction I have with my daughter.  With this knowledge comes the responsibility to make a plan to respond differently, perhaps to delay a request of her/wait a longer amount of time between our next communication.

[vivekananda]

I can better understand that responding with logic to my dd was seen as invalidating - even if it wasn't meant to be.  It has been and still is challenging to know that you mean no hurt, that you only wish to help but to discover that it is in effect invalidating. Now that I understand what validation is, how to practice it and how it feels to both validate and be validated, I only wish I had known earlier.

What gets me is that while I am not BPD, I have enough of the traits to appreciate the extreme sensitivity, the emotional response and the length of time it takes to cool down - I get how that can feel, I have felt it myself. So, how come I couldn't see with my own dd that she needed her emotions validated first and foremost. How come I didn't know how to do it?

Possibly because I was too caught up in my own reactions and emotions... .my own needs.

If I had understood how to validate etc, my own life would have been so much easier for me... .what a merry go round! Yes pw BPD need validation, but really all of us do, just not as much or not as essential. How come I didn't know how to do it?

I recall some time ago, looking at those people I would meet from time to time that I admire so much. Gentle, caring people. I would want to emulate them, but didn't know how. I knew I didn't understand how they were so nice, I thought it was a class thing (being as I was from the bottom of the social scale). I reckon that those people were less concerned with their own ego and were able to validate - show that they care. Hmm, I didn't know so much.

Vivek  

[lbjnltx]

Wow - this was good information!  It is like a light bulb went off for me and I can see now how I must have been doing a lot of invalidating with my dd35, not only when she was a child, but recently as well!   :'( :'(  I have been thinking about doing a letter like from Valerie Porr's book... .and now I know what I need to say to my beautiful daughter.  It all makes sense to me.  This is especially eye opening because I recently read the book Strength Finders - a work project where people in our department identified their strengths.  Mine came out to be very business/manager type strengths such as responsibility, logical, analytical, etc.  At the time, I felt somewhat off balance because other people were identified as having more people strengths that were related to emotions.  My strengths are good for the work place since I am the manager of our department... .NOT so good for relating to a daughter with BPD!  Like they say OMG!  I see where I need some work here.  I know I can't feel guilty about all this - but I do feel sad that my communication style actually was cause for pain in my dd.

You and I are a lot alike!  I am more logical than emotional.  The good news is that you and I may find it much less difficult to achieve a state of Wise Mind.  Wise Mind is a state of mind that combines reason/logic with emotional thinking.  To achieve Wise Mind we must be able to acknowledge emotional states and apply truth/reason/logic at the same time.  The sometimes difficult part is getting in touch with our emotions.  It is much easier to "get in touch" with the emotions of another person sometimes... .how?  By listening with our entire being, getting out of the "problem solving mind set" and into the "validation" mindset.  I've mentioned it before and I will mention it again... ."I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better" is a book that teaches these principles.  Wisemind is a DBT subskill of Mindfullness (I believe).

lbjnltx

[Forgetmenot]

My husband and I have had the same discussion over and over again... .is it that she CANT?  or WONT?

Listening to that audio gave me more insight.  Now I see that sometimes she can and sometimes she can't.  When she is dysregulated she can't do a lot of things normally or react in a reasonable manner.

It is during times like this that I need to lower my expectations and/or help her get regulated.

She does not accept her diagnosis right now, but just the amount of changes I have made since learning about BPD has helped a lot already.  There is far less tension in our house and it doesn't feel as toxic.  I'm hoping for an easier time for both my BPD d 17 and us this year.

[cbcrna1]

I can really identify with what you posted.

I raised my dd 35 as a single mom, BPD xh, I think I did the very best I could there were boundaries which the other kids understand, but my BPD d, 35 sees as "controlling and abusive".

Now my family listens to her and not fully believing the accusations but still hearing and listening to her, they are also caught in the dilemma.  I wonder truly if my dd and I will be able to have a relationship.  I can validate her feelings, but we need to move on and I can't see that happening.  

We are working with a therapist.  

I validate, validate and validate; I am getting frustrated and that is probably "read" by her.  My mind is screaming let's move on already.  We have been NC and not talking except thru a therapist for 2 years now.  

We are still on the same emotional plane, between me and this board here I am tired of validating and getting only blame and more blame.

[qcarolr]

I started out practicing the validation skills with my co-workers. There was so much less emotional investment with them -- I could go home at night and leave it at the office. Then I was able to start practicing it with my dh and gd7 (who we are raising since infancy). I made lots and lots of mistakes in using with DD - lots of do overs - yet things are still getting better. She is also working at handling her bf relationships in new ways - though the last one still ended violently. 5th violent breakup since she was 17. I commented to her maybe this has to do with who she is choosing for bf's -- and she did not argue with me   It is so awesome to see her personal growth - I had to figure out all this for myself first. It has not been an easy journey.

qcr

[lbjnltx]

You are right Grammy, we will never be perfect at it.  My dd15 literally stinks at hiding what kind of mood she is in.  I would think that is true for most pwBPD since intense emotions are a huge struggle for them.  Paying attention to thier body language, tone of voice, etc can help us educate our "guesses".

3) Will the knowledge about how our BPD loved ones read our emotions affect our responses to them during conflict? How?

My dBPDd32 would often make it clear to me that she knew exactly how I was feeling, and she'd be right.  She knew my feelings better than I did.  She would say it showed on my face.  So, I thought Everyone knew how I was feeling, I thought my facial expressions showed my feelings more than most people's!  Now I know differently.  Because of this new knowledge, I will be quicker to articulate my feelings with others, and not assume that they can read me as easily as my BP.

I had to chuckle at that Grammy, pwBPD can be very convincing cant' they.

So, what to do when you disapprove of a mere 10% of a task completed by your BP?  You KNOW that, to the BP, the 90% approval won't matter, the BP will focus on the 10%, and, being able to read emotions so well, it may be difficult for the Non to hide that disapproving 10% from the BP.  And, Should Non's have to work to hide the negative emotions from the BP?  Is that fair?  Is that moral?  Should Non's never say anything about that 10%, even though they responded primarily and favorably to the 90%?

One mantra that works for me, really more with my dh than my dd15, is "it is about the relationship, it is about the relationship.  ie:  dh has a thing about pillows, he will use my high dollar decorative/dyed to match pillows to prop his shoed feet up and kick back to read the internet news.  He is very sensitive, so I can ask him again and again not too, I can get upset and angry, or I can value my relationship with him more than the pillows.

Personally, I don't want to have to try to hide my true emotions from a loved one.  It would feel insincere. I think this is where total acceptance (radical acceptance?) comes into play.  Accept the bad with the good in your BP, and you won't feel that negative 10% in the first place.  Now, this is easy to say, hard to do.  Being a perfectionist, this is especially hard to do!  In working on accepting ALL of my dBPDd32, the bad with the good, I find that I am also able to let go of some of my own perfectionism.

Once more, it is about the relationship far above that 10%/they have a mental illness, we don't.

So, all the soul searching and hard emotional work helps us Non's too, along with our BPd's.  Now, that's a win-win!  



4) How can we  use this new knowledge and understanding to help "BPD" loved ones?

It will help me when I interact with her.  I'd been focusing on boundaries - figuring out what they should be, specific consequences, drawing my line in the sand.  (I've also realized that my boundaries may change or evolve.  If a boundary isn't working for me, I, no one else, can modify it.)  Now that I am comfortable with having boundaries, and am familiar with how they work, I am ready to move on, to use this new knowledge.  I will practice validation, with everyone.  It's a good thing, needed by all.  BPd's need more of it, and more often.  I will no longer take her lying, meanness, and other negative behaviors so personally, even when they are aimed straight at me.  And I will work towards accepting her imperfections more completely, as I will work to accept my own.

Thanks for sharing your insight with others.

lbjnltx

[Grammy17201]

So:

Validate.

Accept the bad with the good, and

Don't take it personally.

Be sincere, then

Validate some more, and remember:

It's about the relationship.  

Hugs,

Grammy

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[justhere]

Thank you for this thread and although I had to read and reread it a number of times now, I think I am finally understanding and have sorted through my own thoughts enough to attempt to answer your questions.  When I am told something that I am just not ready to hear... .the words get all garbled and don't make sense to me but I think it is not so much that I don't understand but my emotions are getting in the way and not letting me. This could be very similiar to what is happening with my BPD dd's and big part of how they react to me so no wonder I am having a difficult time talking to them.

Does you see evidence of the Dialectical Dilemma in your household?

Yes, a lot and even more since I began making boundaries, by choice or otherwise.

Will the knowledge about how our BPD loved ones read our emotions affect our responses to them during conflict? How?

I've been trying to validate but it is unfortunate that just as I have found this new knowledge, my own health has deteriorated.  I have had no other choice but to look after me( things like 2 major surgeries, quitting life-long addictions, ridding my life of abusive partner)and l have been making a lot of changes and dealing with those changes takes all my energy both physical and mental. I have also been doing a lot of soul-searching so I have been dealing with guilt, forgiveness and grief but it seems that the stronger the emotion that I am dealing with at the time, the more difficult they make it for me.  The trouble is that as I attempt to leave myself open to the things that I need to do to heal, I am very venerable and it seems that they have been exploiting that venerability by attacking me. This has made it so much more difficult for me and caused me to be angry and resentful with them and it is like we end every time we talk with some arguement or bad feelings. I have been of the opinion that I do not have energy to do all this validating or denying my own feelings so that we can have a better relationship but I am beginning to realize that I don't have the energy not to.

How will understanding that a person with BPD is cognitively unable to follow through with tasks during times of emotional dysregulation affect our expectations of them and our responses to them?

It has just been as I have been dealing with this latest behavior of my dd that I have realized that my dd is just not able to live her life the way I would want her too so I haven't had much time to change my responses yet.  I may of understood before on one level but now I really know. I can see now that finding a better way to respond to my dd is not giving up me and who I am like I thought at first, it is giving me a new way to be who I am that is both better for me and for my dd's.

How do you see this knowledge changing your choices in interaction with your daughter?

Although I did have to work though the anger and sadness I felt from feeling that I have to do more, that I have not done enough and I am so tired but, I am actually feeling better now and have hope that something that I could do could make a difference. It is so difficult for me to trust anyone but I feel like how I might feel if my mother was able to teach me something that would be good for me and I feel safer, more in control so, maybe my dd can see that in me and feel it too.

justhere

[lbjnltx]

A few years ago, before the RTC experience, my dd would get upset when I would tell her "I love you".  To her it was an invalidating experience... .because she could not understand why if I love her that I won't allow her to do what she believed would make her happy,... .why if I loved her that she felt so unloved by me.

If in the past, we have preceeded a statement that she doesn't want to hear by "I love you... .and... .or I love you... .but".  It is very important to attempt to interrupt that trigger.  It may take quite some time... .if ever... .yet it is worth the effort.  Making the "I love you " statement in different ways... .w/our actions, by making that statement without any other statements... ."I love you hit_, have a wonderful evening"...

My greatest fear was that my dd15 would never know/believe that I loved her... .that fear is gone.

lbjnltx

[vivekananda]

I believe dd knows I love her, but I reckon you're right. I reckon she hears those words and then hears what she would think is me telling her what to do or something... .but if I can validate her feelings, she may be able to hear me... .

It is hard to distinguish between the honest d and the manipulative one. Mainly because I don't want to see the manipulative one.

Vivek    

[lbjnltx]

It may be more of a conditioned response... .her brain has been trained (or she trained her brain) to react to certain phrases... .thereby they become triggers... .a physical response occurs as well... .the longer she reacts the same way... .the more entrenched the neuropathways become... .the harder it is to retrain self to allow a different reaction.  It takes time and effort to accomplish change.

DBT mindfullness skills are affective in this area... .I hope that one day she will begin to make that effort.  In the meantime... .you can provide opportunities for change... .it isn't that you were doing anything wrong Vivek ... .it just isn't working... .so ... .figuring out what might work is a possible goal on your part.

WE CAN PROVIDE OPPORTUNITIES BUT WE CANNOT ORCHESTRATE THE OUTCOME.

Living with this knowledge (radically accepting it) can help us to let go and offer what we can to help our children/adult children.

[vivekananda]

Personally, I don't want to have to try to hide my true emotions from a loved one.  It would feel insincere. I think this is where total acceptance (radical acceptance?) comes into play.  Accept the bad with the good in your BP, and you won't feel that negative 10% in the first place.  Now, this is easy to say, hard to do.  Being a perfectionist, this is especially hard to do!  In working on accepting ALL of my dBPDd32, the bad with the good, I find that I am also able to let go of some of my own perfectionism.  So, all the soul searching and hard emotional work helps us Non's too, along with our BPd's.  Now, that's a win-win!

It says in Skip's workshop,Tools: Radical Acceptance for family members

if you are self critical , then you will of course be critical of others... .

"We become self-critics. And like most self critics, we also become critical of others" and this is explained as a consequence of a sense of unworthiness.

This I think is one of my sticking points.

cheers,

Vivek  

[Forgetmenot]

I think we have to remember that even if we handled everything perfectly all the time, they still have BPD and will be inappropriate at times.

I really struggle once it hits RAGE.  NOTHING I say or do seems good.  I have learned that being silent is a bad idea.  If I am at a loss for words I just say "I'm sorry you feel so bad right now"  or something random like that.  Get one of those phrases memorized.  I find when my d17 rages, she wants to blow off steam... .hear something nice... then be left alone.  Eventually the storm passes.  I don't take it personally anymore.

I find it easy to validate like crazy when she IS regulated.  It seems easier to keep her in a calmer state for a longer period.

I will always struggle with the stealing, lying.  I don't think can learn not to take that personally.

The rude behavior when she dysregulates makes us insane too.  She was mad about something yesterday so she dumped my clean laundry on the dirty basement floor. (because she took my laundry basket)  I'm only human... how can that NOT piss me off?

Overall, understanding the dialectal dilema has helped me cope with the dyregulated state and understand it.  At least I don't feed that monster anymore.

[PeaceMom]

I wish this exercise could be posted back at the top. Seems like new folks could really benefit!

[PeaceMom]

This is such a valuable exercise and discussion. Somehow it magically appeared at the top of the screen here even though it was many years old. I like the instructional aspect and then the resulting discussion from members giving practical input and examples. Good stuff!