Another thought about projection

[Depression = 72% of members]

As I sat and listened to her project more of her "reality" onto me, a thought occurred.  She typically projects all kinds of accusations which from my vantage point would be more true of her than of me, such as me  being controlling, manipulative, that my family hates me, that I don't pay attention to details, don't listen well, etc... .  My thought is that if a pwBPD lacks a true sense of self, and instead mirrors behavior of others, perhaps the "projection" is the pwBPD regurgitating what was said about them in the past.  So if the pwBPD was accused of being all these things in the past, felt bad about being accused of them, and then becomes mad at us, they use the same language to try and hurt us.

thoughts?

[maxsterling]

As I sat and listened to her project more of her "reality" onto me, a thought occurred.  She typically projects all kinds of accusations which from my vantage point would be more true of her than of me, such as me  being controlling, manipulative, that my family hates me, that I don't pay attention to details, don't listen well, etc... .  My thought is that if a pwBPD lacks a true sense of self, and instead mirrors behavior of others, perhaps the "projection" is the pwBPD regurgitating what was said about them in the past.  So if the pwBPD was accused of being all these things in the past, felt bad about being accused of them, and then becomes mad at us, they use the same language to try and hurt us.

thoughts?

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[Cat Familiar]

It's horrible being the target of unfounded claims. You are a very tolerant husband, Max.   

I think it's likely that a pwBPD has been accused of the issues they project upon others and that it's so painful to confront and discern whether there is a grain of truth there, that they just file these thoughts away, unexamined.

When my husband had one of his major dysregulations in the past, before I found these strategies on this site, he would tell me that I "hated him." I know that it's likely that language came from his abusive father, but never have I actually "hated" him. Yes, I've been annoyed, irritated, frustrated, pissed off. But somehow with BPD think, those milder expressions of anger, which are part of the normal human experience, get translated into the black and white thinking of extremes. If I'm mad because he left a mess in the kitchen while he was getting drunk late at night, I must thereby hate him.

All of your wife's claims undoubtedly have some tiny bit of truth in them, even just momentarily: who isn't controlling, manipulative, disliked by their family, doesn't pay attention to details, doesn't listen well. We all do these things because we're imperfect humans. But in the BPD mind, they become giant issues.

[waverider]

Could be a kind of mirroring. When they want to impress they mirror back to you your own "feel goods". When they want to attack you they mirror back the things they know hurt, as they hurt them. Except they are transferring the mirror from a previous experience and relating it to you.

Remember past, future and present are all one and the same and they borrow experiences from either and apply it to the now to express their feelings.

Past experiences are all just pigments in their palette to paint the emotions of the moment. The origins of those pigments are of no matter, only their effectiveness

[enlighten me]

While I believe a lot of this is them projecting what they dont like about themselves I also believe some of it has to do with object constancy. I had on a number of occassions things thrown at me that were bizarre. I now believe the situations triggered past experiences and it was these experiences that led to what was being thrown at me. If that makes sense?

[waverider]

While I believe a lot of this is them projecting what they dont like about themselves I also believe some of it has to do with object constancy. I had on a number of occassions things thrown at me that were bizarre. I now believe the situations triggered past experiences and it was these experiences that led to what was being thrown at me. If that makes sense?

Yep they know XYZ hurts, but forget where that thought comes from.  It is like having a library of quotes to use but no attribution as to what characters used them.

They assimilate experiences to a particular emotion rather than to a particular person. Hence if you get hate, you get it from every source not just things you had anything to do with. Obviously this leads to exaggerated hate, as you end up wearing the sins of others

[enlighten me]

Exactly waverider

put in a much better way than I did. Makes me wonder who she thought I really was.

This must be very confusing for them as our actions wont add up to their experiences and expectations. Could explain a lot about all sorts of BPD behaviour including idolisation as in the begining we could be seen as the sum of all their good experiences.

[waverider]

They don't know who they are

and

They don't know who we are.

Everyone is just fantasy to them, a collection of attributed traits which may have no bearing on their real origins. Fantasies always fail to live up to their expectations, as there is no consistency. Fictional characters developed to fit in with a convenient script to suit their needs of the moment.

Sometimes the story is so good we buy it ourselves, and in return end up failing our own reality. Knowing our own story is paramount to staying centered

[Sunfl0wer]

I agree Maxsterling.  Once my stbexuBPD was continuing on a topic that I said was done.  He kept pressing to "reopen up the argument" so that he could change my mind.  I insisted I spent enough time on the topic with him.  After being exasperated at trying to set this boundary, I finally pointed out his behavior to him, I said he was causing "drama."

The word drama is not one he uses.  However, he does know me to use this word when trying to label and cope with his exwifeuBPD, so he knows it in that derogatory context.

Several weeks later, we were caught up in a disagreement that went a little circular for a bit with me spending a little extra time trying to explain something.  He accused me of causing "drama." 

It was so weird though!  Weird because it was not an emotional disagreement for me but a logical clarification, so he was using it wrong for me.  (But I guess for him it was emotional). Also weird because it was like he held onto the word "drama" all those weeks, waiting to use it to almost literally throw it back at me to get it off of himself.  I swear, even the way he threw the word at me, his tone, his relief, was like playing a game of hot potato, you are tired and relieved to toss the potato out of your hands.  Like he was burdened by the word all those weeks and sitting in waiting for the chance to try to throw it back!  He has never used the word since.   

[Sunfl0wer]

Sometimes I think his projections were guilt.  Like if I did not complain, but on his own he felt guilty of being late, next chance he could get he would try to accuse me of being late.  These are time where the truth would get bent.  I think it is because he was desperate to throw that feeling away from him, onto me, that he would accept "almost late" as a criteria to throw the word "late" at me.  (I never made this connection till just now... .wow... .now I see why he would start a fight over this, why something meaningless seemed so important to him, why me defending and showing him proof of me not late would enrage him more!   )

Or sometimes, his projections, like you said, were things I said to him.  I would complain that he was not interacting with my son.  (He would ignore him for weeks). So sure enough he always would freak out a day later or so and try to accuse me of a poor interaction with his D. 

Of course he constantly accused me of projection.  I never used the word projection on him.  I'm sure his exwifeuBPD either accused him of this or he learned it in therapy.

Oh, that is the other thing, the MC could be telling him to keep his emotions in check, then we'd go home and he'd look for ways to tell me to keep my emotions in check.

I guess anything he perceives as negative he cannot apply to himself and digest so he has to find a way to throw it away... .  =Projection.

When stbexbfuBPD did this... .   It felt like a sibling was trying to get me in trouble, but I was the parent, so he was reporting my bad behavior to me instead of our mom, seemingly so that I would favor him over me.  Weird!

(I agree tho, the stuff he doesn't have the insight to be aware of is less likely to get projected.  But idk if his guilt is conscious or subconscious)

Thank you!  This was really helpful for me to explore!

[emergent]

I get this a lot. For me, like for SunflOwer, it has less to do with past labelling than present guilt, but I think that guilt must be repressed in a strange way in some strange internal compartment. It's not like my uBPDw can actually FEEL guilt, or even admit that her behaviour was wrong. If we take manipulation as an example, she may attempt to fine tune a situation according to what she wants using all kinds of sneaky, manipulative wording to myself and our kids (and others, sometimes). I can be fully aware of this even though she seems oblivious, and most times I will not mention it (although I may - or may not - resist). There's no labelling, and perhaps this is a problem of mine, perhaps I should tell her, but I am afraid of the repercussions. But somehow, in spite of there being no labelling, it becomes necessary for her to accuse me as soon as possible of being manipulative, even if my actions are well-intentioned and sincere. I think that on some level she must have understood that she was herself acting manipulatively, and instead of assuming responsibility for it and feeling the guilt, actually holding her bucket of emotion, she takes any opportunity (even if there isn't a good one) to pour it onto me. In general, this scenario repeated time after time leads to me feeling that all of the emotional responsibility in this marriage is my burden.

[maxsterling]

Good discussion here... .

My wife, being as self-aware as she is, sometimes will admit/explain to me as to what is going on.  Her latest being that she claims when she is screaming/raging, she is "powerless" (borrowing an AA term) in the same way she is powerless over alcohol, drugs, and food.  I wonder if this is a bit of the same thing, taking a term and concept she learned somewhere else and fitting it to a behavior.  Yeah, I guess technically she is "powerless" but to equate those behaviors as the same thing tells me that she may be searching for some kind of "explanation" to why she rages.

In other of her self-aware moments, she will say when she is yelling at me, I become her father or some other person from her past.  So she admits the insults she is hurling have nothing to do with me.  

But I am sure like most of you, many of the insults and things she says during moments of dysregulation are so far from reality as I see it and only make sense if I apply them to her.   Like when she is mad at me trying to claim I am mentally ill in some way.  Or when she will go on about how I never do this or do that or do something the wrong way, none of which are true for me, but true for her (like saying I am messy or a slob).  When she says those things, I can just picture a previous boyfriend (or parent) saying them to her in the past, and her now saying them to me fir the simple purpose of trying to invoke the same emotion in me that it invoked in her.  

[emergent]

and her now saying them to me fir the simple purpose of trying to invoke the same emotion in me that it invoked in her.  

Does she succeed?

In my case, it's fairly rare. I am usually aware enough of what's going on to duck the bullets, even if I stay standing there while they're being fired. Usually the false narrative she concocts is so ridiculous that I am able to distinguish it from reality. But occasionally, things happen so fast or I am caught off guard or for some other reason, I get sucked in and believe the accusations are true.