moving

[rarsweet]

We have a 7 month old daughter, when she was 7 weeks old, he filed a restraining order while I was at work and took off to the next state with her. Restraining order was dismissed as I proved with medical records I was actually at the hospital during the time he claimed I was violent. We have temporary 50/50 parenting time. We don't have our final hearing until September. Uggh.  Ex has not worked in 18 months now and has worked maybe 5 years total, he is 35. His whole life he seems to just keep flopping between friends and family. He has lived in nh, vt, co, nv, Alaska, Hawaii, sc, az. He filed his proposed parenting plan. He is asking for sole decision making. He wants daughter to be with him Wednesday through Sunday, and her with me Monday and Tuesday. No vacations at all and 12 hours with me on alternating holidays. Heres the kicker. And I quote." Ex is allowed to move one hour away from his current residence with daughter without needing court permission."

[Sunfl0wer]

How stressful this all sounds.  Sorry you are dealing with this!

I think it is standard to ask for way more, that way you can "give" extra days as you like or have the upper hand in decisions, or have a higher starting point for negotiating from.  I think of it as just a game.

" Ex is allowed to move one hour away from his current residence with daughter without needing court permission."

This is standard.  And considering your ex's past behavior, sounds like a very good thing to keep.

What issues are you anticipating?

[rarsweet]

He wants to move with daughter so he can keep flopping around to family members that will support him. He wants to move away but says I can have her Monday and Tuesday, how does that work when she goes to school?   If I had her for 12 hrs on holidays does she then spend holidays traveling to me for 12 hours then travel back? He has no way to support her, right now he says he is living with his udad who is near me, but he spends like 2 days at his dads then 2 days at his sisters in the next state then he'll go hang out with a buddy a half hour away and then repeat. Every time we do exchanges his car is packed I can see her highchair, playpen, blankets, etc. He just does whatever he wants, he doesn't have a job or anything holding him to a place, no bills, nothing. He doesn't think of anything serious, no forethought at all. He basically wants to not need a legitimate reason to move with our daughter. Plus his request says he wants to move from current residence without permission. Well if the judge gave him that he could move every month and make his way to Alaska. Most parenting plans have relocation clauses, like 60 days notice, he is asking for their to be no relocation clause, so he can move wherever he wants with her without having to give a legitimate reason, like a job promotion, etc. He got a lawyer, but he did his parenting plan without her assistance, I think he's crazy, no judge is going to agree with him.

[maxen]

hi rarsweet. this is really awful and i'm sorry you have to deal with it. that it should happen when your child is weeks old - you have all my sympathy. to a person not involved in the events (me) your h's demands sound completely unreasonable and you've already demonstrated to a court which one of you is the reliable one. keep documenting between now and the date of the final hearing (as i'm sure you're doing).

We have temporary 50/50 parenting time.

i haven't had to deal with custody issues but those here who have, say that temporary terms often become permanent. so you may well get nothing less than 50/50 for yourself, never mind what he wants. have you discussed with a L?

[rarsweet]

Oh yes I document everything, I really think his proposed plan is funny. I've been at my job for 4 years, always have been employed, go to school also, i have 2 older children, my mother is a licensed daycare provider and is my only babysitter, I breastfeed, volunteer with le leche, have been doing a coparenting program alone  every single Monday since September, every other Wednesday I do a child development program with daughter, CPR certified,  I'm in personal counseling, been involved at a women's supportive services since 2010, I don't do drugs or drink, and he wants sole custody and to move so he can go live off someone, its funny. His argument is he has no obligations on his time, so he is hands on. So am I, I am just an adult with responsibilities.

[Sunfl0wer]

When I said "standard," I did not mean by any way acceptable.  Not at all!

I am just saying that what you shared is just his proposal correct?  You did not agree?

I have been through this with my ex, helping him navigate dealing with his uBPDexw.  Our lawyer calmed us by explaining her proposal was outrageous, but also typical.  Typical that each party asks for way more than they think they will be awarded.  That way there is room to negotiate.  She never expected us to accept the first proposal.  I'm sure his ex and her lawyer also never expected us to accept it either.

What would happen is that we would then try to "fix" it and make our proposal back.  The two lawyers would try to negotiate.

It was all just a big mind game.  Like if the BPDw would ask for 2xs what she thought she would get, then if she got only half, then it appeared to the court that she was trying to compromise.

We also learned always to ask for more than we wanted. That way we could negotiate down and look like we were "giving" something.

It is like over priced boots that go on sale.  I would never buy them that high price, but if I see sale, I could think buying them at the sale price could make me happy that. I got them.  (I am not that type tho, just example)

If your ex has a tendency to move a lot, and even if he doesn't, you WILL WANT some statement in there to limit how far he can go.  It is standard to allow the one hour/60 miles.  The point is to stop him from taking the child too far.  That is to protect you both.  Usually that is always in there for the protection of both parties.  You do not want him moving farther and then you need a flight to see your kid.

Stay calm!  Stay cool!  His strategy may just be to piss you off so that you are just grateful to negotiate him down on sole custody to shared and get you too upset to worry about the rest. 

It is ALL important!  Don't lose focus by focusing on the unfairness in his proposal and getting undone.  Get started on your own!

[Sunfl0wer]

I agree, the 12hr holiday is complete bull and a huge burden on everyone.

Also, what does your lawyer think?  It almost sounds like you may get an easier agreement quicker by putting this in front of a judge.  His lack of stability, his unreasonable first parenting plan.  The 12 hr holiday shows little thought to the burden on child.  Likely the judge will give you more than you two can negotiate?

Clarifying:  usually moving greater than an hour away requires relocation hearing.  (I've been through one with ex). Usually the clause to move freely within 60 miles without a relocation is standard for both parties.

Do you guys currently live close?

[rarsweet]

In nh the standard law is the parties have to give notice before moving out of the school district, whether its 20 minutes away or 6 hours.  My proposed plan is that. 1. if we live in the same school district we have joint decision making,  2.daughter is with dad Saturday morning through Sunday evening and for three hours on Tuesday and Thursday,  3. alternating holidays for three day periods,  4. and even though she isn't in school yet I want him to have her on the three day weekends of the school schedule,  5. and summer schedule is the same.  Then when she enters school the schedule would change to him having her Thursday morning until Saturday evening( so he could bring her to school also) and we split vacation weeks, and the summer schedule is the same as school year, with each of us having a one week long period of time with her. If we live in separate school districts he can have the standard every other weekend and one night a week and standard vacations. Its much better written than my summary though. I wanted to think it through and think ahead, so its not exactly a standard plan.  I tried to consider all our factors.1. I work Tuesday through Saturday.  2. I wanted to make it possible for him to get a job and not lose out on time with her. I wanted her to have frequent meaningful time with him, not just longer periods of time( she would be sleeping),  3. I wanted her to have consistency and stability, a routine. 4. I factored in what his extended family and mine is like so he would have her when his family could see her and same with mine, and my older kiddos.  5. I factored in my study time for school( online),  6.I take her to groups on Mondays and Wednesdays so I didn't want to stop that. 7. I factored in that his whole family( besides his dad) live away from here, so I calculated drive time for holidays.8. I wanted to make sure we each had some weekend and some weekday time, so we can both be involved in Dr appointments, etc, and both have fun time. But really it doesn't work to stick her in a car going back and forth. And really if he says I have her Monday and Tuesday she would be in a car an hour each way for school? Or we would have to go back to court to change the schedule. I really wrote out 8 possible plans, even his, and broke them down, wrote out pros and cons, wrote out travel times and costs,  wrote future scenarios, what ifs, and tried to figure out the best schedule.

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow!  You have clearly put tremendous thought and attention to so many factors!  You really have done a tremendous job rarsweet!

In nh the standard law is the parties have to give notice before moving out of the school district, whether its 20 minutes away or 6 hours.

Thank you for clarifying.  I understand a bit better now.  Maybe he made his PP by stealing some crappy online template that did not consider the NH standard but was from another state?

If you both expect to be able to get her to school, then I see why this would be important.  (Not to mention the possibility of changing school zones.)

1. if we live in the same school district we have joint decision making, 

This is an area we asked for sole decision making for the purpose of negotiating. We wanted it, but also needed to highball to have room to negotiate.  We also wished we had at least gotten joint decisions, with us as residential custodians having tie breaker decision making.  Meaning that it was stated as joint, but in the event the parties don't agree, then we got to decide.  Kinda a tricky way of getting decision making while making it easier for the other party to swallow.  Anyway, this didn't happen.

daughter is with dad Saturday morning through Sunday evening and for three hours on Tuesday and Thursday,

It was important for us to define times to avoid power struggles.  We got something worded like, " the child to be in the care of dad between the hours of 6-8pm and returned to mom between the hours of 6-8pm." Then it was further explained in another clause that the intent for the hours was such to allow the child enough rest for school.  We were also trying to ensure ex would not be trying to interfere with our work hours, but instead of making it at all about us, we focused on her school.

alternating holidays for three day periods,  4. and even though she isn't in school yet I want him to have her on the three day weekends of the school schedule,  5. and summer schedule is the same.

Using vague terms or alternating holidays did not work for us.  We all noticed that the patterns for holidays ended up alternating unfairly, very uneven.  We actually all preferred that all of the holidays were actually listed out and designated ahead of time to mom or dad.  That avoided many fights.  According to the school calendar, there is a holiday almost every month.  X mas break was shared and alternated with the parent who got x mas, also got a few less days than the other parent.  Instead of writing "alternating" it helped that mom got odd years and dad got even years.  This ended up being a good point that we negotiated.  We took an extra day in exchange for mom getting the first x mas year which pleased mom.



You have so much great and thoughtful rationale for what you came up with.  What is your next step?

We wanted her lawyer to understand some of the rationale included with our decisions for our offer.  Our lawyer helped us to create a cover page, I forgot what the official term for it was, but it included the language that explained the thought process behind it so that her lawyer could easier see what the point of a lot of it was.  It proved to be quite helpful.

I think you have been so incredibly fair and thoughtful.  Your daughter is so fortunate! 

However, I would caution you that it may be best to ask for a bit more days.  As a principle, we asked for more days than we wanted because when it came down to it, we knew that if his daughter wanted more time with mom or to do something special with her, that WE would allow it and easily give it without a fight.  But we also knew that there was no way she would do the same.  So it was better for D for us to try to have more.

Also we have a clause for "if the parties cannot agree" then follow PP.

Also if there is disagreement in decision making we are to use (specifically named) mediator to resolve it.

We also included that from now on, if exw takes us to court, and looses, then she pays all our court costs.  (She was using court to harass us)


Also you talk about different situations.  You can somewhat write it in a way that if a situation occurs, that then that puts a different set of things in effect.  This gets tricky, but important.  Good on you for anticipating so much.  It is hard thinking that you are writing this with the intent of never going back to court, to last till 18y/o.

I hope I was helpful!

[Sunfl0wer]

Oh, we also got frustrated with exw for changing plans, us kindly agreeing, then getting scr3wed over.  So we added that if any temporary change was to be made that the party asking for a change had to get their agreement in writing and notorized. This was because she would take advantage, offer an extra day in exchange for a sick day, then accuse us of kidnapping, or she just would not end up following through.

(Holy cow we have been through som difficult crud! :/)

[rarsweet]

Sometimes its funny and sometimes its scary. I don't know if he us really delusional or if he thinks he will get what he wants it else. His plan says if we disagree about anything we will go to mediation, yet he refuses court ordered mediation, he actually walked out 33 minutes into mediation. I have asked him and his lawyer in writing once a month since September to go to mediation, he refuses. His plan says we shall exchange daughter at the police station where I live, and each parent is responsible for their own travel costs, yet he wants to move and doesn't have a job, how's he going to pay for all that gas? He wants the Court's permission to not need permission to move. He doesn't seem to think that I work Tuesdays so I would either have daughter with my mom or have to cut down my work schedule ( my job is only open Tuesday through Saturday), but he wants child support, and he is asking the court to not allow me to have any child care costs? He wants to have her as a tax exemption every year but he doesn't work? He worked at a farm for one season when he was about 20, he changed tires for about a year 8 years ago, he worked for dominoes for a summer in 2003, he lived in Vegas with his uncle from 2009 to 2012 never had a job, we met in 2012 when he moved here to live with his dad, he got a job and worked 11 months, nothing since. And he is 35.  Oh he did have a temp job laying sidewalks at a hospital an old girlfriend worked at sometime  between 2005 and 2009. ( those are the years he was with that girlfriend). He tells me I can't make a Dr appointment without his permission, but he did actually tell the pediatrician I had been arrested for domestic violence, and that I was not allowed to talk to the Dr. I was never arrested, and yes I have the Dr record showing this. He actually removed my phone number and address from the drs office, I had to revive them my info. God it goes on... .rant over. I am staying calm actually, very calm, I am thankful I can vent here.

[Sunfl0wer]

We also put something like " both parents have equal access to medical, educational records.  Both parents to be used as emergency contacts.  Both have first right to refusal."  Don't forget those.

Vent away!

I'm just hoping something was helpful to you.  It would at least make me feel all that crap helped SOMEBODY!  Cause now we are broken up.  All that time in court, I feel so used.  Used so my uBPDexbf could win over his exw.  I stood up for my uBPDexbf to his psycho, abusive uBPDexw.  The court harassment and endless harassment by her traumatized me.  I hope to find a way to make it mean something!  Ugh!

[rarsweet]

My ex refuses to negotiate or mediate at all, and I mean at all, we have not had one real discussion about the future, besides those 33 minutes in mediation in October. The judge has just set a final hearing date of September 8th. My proposal is very exact, I just didn't want to write so much here . I have gone through a lot with my older kids dad so I hope I have learned how to not be vague in the parenting plan. The suggestion of a cover letter explaining my thought process is a good idea. One question though... .he has a lawyer as of the end of January. I have never spoken to her, I call and I get her paralegal, my ex has told me not to call her. Yes seriously, I asked him to talk about taxes since our hearing isn't until September, he said his lawyer was handling it, I said OK I'll call her, his words " its not wise of you to threaten me with calling my lawyer". When I ask him to go to mediation I send a copy to the lawyer. No response. And her signature is on his financial affidavits and motions, etc, but he did his parenting plan himself. I did look up this lawyer and she is very good, awards and all. Do you think he has told her not to speak with me at all. Can he do that? Really I don't think a good lawyer would have helped him write his parenting plan. He doesn't even have a birthday suggestion for daughter on the plan.  Think I should send a cover letter to the lawyer and see what happens?

[rarsweet]

Lmao had to throw this in... .our last exchange he did ask me if I had a problem with him switching her brand of diapers to cruisers though.

[maxen]

rarsweet he really sounds like he's flailing. and that's "good" in the sense that he may know on some level that he can't get what he wants, or doesn't know what he wants, which would make his applications to the court unconvincing. after we exchanged net worth documents, my (now ex-)w started flailing too, and my L and i did exactly nothing. we didn't bite on any of it, we held to our positions quite coolly and we got what we wanted. hopefully in the your d will get the benefit of your patient work.

[Sunfl0wer]

One question though... .he has a lawyer as of the end of January. I have never spoken to her, I call and I get her paralegal, my ex has told me not to call her. Yes seriously, I asked him to talk about taxes since our hearing isn't until September, he said his lawyer was handling it, I said OK I'll call her, his words " its not wise of you to threaten me with calling my lawyer".

Lol!  Call his lawyer ALL you want.  As long as she/he is the lawyer, they are obligated to answer the phone even if only to redirect you that they want you to work out a specific matter solo with client.

He doesn't want it to cost him!  That is why he sees it as a threat!   

We had this issue, she always called our lawyer, then our lawyer had to communicate what transpired.  This harassment alone, racked up our bill.

We got to a point where to minimize damage that we just stated to our lawyer that we only wanted to discuss xyz, and if she was being contacted for something else, that if it was not a one sentence answer, then she was just to explain that she was not available to discuss that and that she would instead need to have her lawyer contact our lawyer to progress the negotiations or discussions.

He cannot tell you to not contact his lawyer.  Let his lawyer do the talking, answer your questions if he/she will.  You may actually get somewhere talking to his lawyer vs him.

[rarsweet]

I have thought about sending all his nasty emails to his lawyer, but then I wonder if he is really pulling the wool over her eyes, she will be really surprised when I exchange evidence for court.

[Sunfl0wer]

You surely know what you are doing over there and sound very well prepared rarsweet!

I have thought about sending all his nasty emails to his lawyer, but then I wonder if he is really pulling the wool over her eyes, she will be really surprised when I exchange evidence for court.

Do you expect a benefit to you by sharing with his lawyer in advance?

Sometimes we shared in advance if it was a topic we felt could be resolved out of court.  Often her lawyer would then try to reason with her that she exposed her manipulation and would convince her to negotiate out of court for her own sake.  So in some instances this can work to your advantage.

However, usually if we knew the topic was going to be heard in court, it was good strategy to completely surprise her and her lawyer with her own words.  She actually did not realize how damaging her words sounded to anyone not her.  She was completely shocked anyone could "paint her black" when the lawyer made her read out loud her own threatening words.  She seriously thought her horrible words would sound as innocent to everyone else that they did to her!

Other times though, we did share tidbits even if going to court, to sort of help her lawyer wrap his head around what we were going through as her lawyer was being abused/bullied by her and it actually helped him to sympathize with us.  Sometimes he would approach our lawyer as though WE were being irrational, but it was only because he had only her side of the story.  Then he got her actual emails and would realize he needed to change the game plan from attacking US, to protecting his client from HERSELF and saying things that made his job hard to defend her.

The thing to consider tho... .

After we shared... . 

This sometimes helped her lawyer to negotiate better with her and get her to come more to our side some.

However, her lawyer sometimes told her to limit her contact.  So she would insist on no more emails, just voice calls.  This stopped her from incriminating herself.  (Not good for us). This also opened us up for her verbal abuse. (Also bad for us). And with the increased phone call communications, it intensified the emotion of the interactions, therefore communication just became harassment and rages and nothing productive ever came of it.  Whereas at least she was civil in emails as she knew it was a record of her expressions, so sometimes communication would be effective.

[Panda39]

I have thought about sending all his nasty emails to his lawyer, but then I wonder if he is really pulling the wool over her eyes, she will be really surprised when I exchange evidence for court.

Nope bad idea... .play it close to the vest.

[ForeverDad]

My order said mediation first.  However, turned out that was only for selected issues.  Apparently some things such as Contempt of Court cases didn't have to try mediation first, at least in my location.  So if the order says to try mediation first, and it is for issues that apply, then try mediation once or twice, whatever is appropriate, then proceed on to court.  You may have to attempt mediation first but if ex ignores it or obstructs it, then you proceed to court.

You may not be able to get this at first but at each visit to court ask for this and eventually the court may agree.  What?  Tie-Breaker or Decision-Making.  The court may be reluctant to do that if you have joint custody, they hope you two will eventually get along and cooperate.  But with every visit to court they will see that as a more and more viable alternative.

The nice thing is that it sidesteps some concerns of the court.  Court doesn't want one parent to feel in total control and the other feel locked out, so sole custody is somewhat rare.  (I took me some 5 years from divorce filing to when I became our son's Legal Guardian.)  But court also doesn't want to see the parents in court repeatedly.  So though joint legal custody is typical, if the conflict continues then the court may agree that the more solution-oriented parent should have tie-breaker or decision-making status.

Sole custody may be rare in your state without extreme circumstances.  Your lawyer should know about local circumstances.  But there is one way that joint legal could work, if you have 'tie-breaker' status.  That way you ask for her agreement on a major issue but if you two can't agree, then you proceed.

How is 'joint with tie-breaker' different from Sole Custody?  With sole custody you can proceed without seeking agreement first, you just provide appropriate notification.  (Tie-breaker means you ask first then proceed with your decision.)

How is 'joint with tie-breaker' different from typical joint custody?  With typical joint custody and you two don't agree, you may have to go to a Parenting Coordinator, a mediator or back to court, all lengthy and possibly expensive options.  (Tie-breaker means you ask first then proceed with your decision.)

So you may have to think on your feet and not be caught off guard by surprise twists, pleas and demands.  If she insists on joint legal (many do so they look normal publicly and so they can feel they're still a 'good parent' then do try to reserve for yourself the 'tie-breaker' or 'decision-making' status.  Yes, theoretically she could still take you to a PC, mediator or court about it, but most likely wouldn't even try.

I agree, decision making authority is crucial if you want to avoid repeated visits and consequent delays either at court or seeking a ruling by the mediator or parenting coordinator (PC).

Many courts are reluctant to award sole custody to a parent, no doubt feeling it may end up enabling the other parent to be locked out.  So it's typical for joint legal custody.  However, if sole custody isn't granted, then try to get tie-breaker.  Actually, there's not much difference from sole custody.  With sole custody you make your decision or action and "notify" at your discretion either before of immediately after.  With joint you have to first seek agreement and then if that fails you as tie breaker go ahead anyway.  So really the only difference is that joint with tie breaker you have to try to seek agreement beforehand, then you proceed anyway.

[ForeverDad]

While he can ask for anything he wants, it is up to you to object to it and document why.  For example, him seeking sole decision making is not reasonable. It was only several months ago he tried to obstruct your parenting when your child was just weeks old.  Fortunately you had proof he lied to get an order and leave the area so it was dismissed.  That alone should be reason enough for him not to have sole decision making and not to be able to move with your child up to 2 hours away without court permission.

You need to object or contest this.  Likely the court will not go along with it if you object, explain and document your reasons why you have concerns.  If this is just part of his demands for a settlement, then the answer is No.

Never ever agree to allowing him any more time, he got 50% from the start, so he's feeling entitled and seeking even more.  Never ever agree to no vacations.  Never ever agree to less holiday time than the county or state standard times.  Yes, court may order things that aren't in your favor, but you surely don't have to agree to them in a settlement.

Frankly, he can ask (and is asking) for anything he wishes, even if totally unreasonable and illogical.  You have an equal right to say No.  Don't feel pressured to accept any 'deal' that you believe is wrong.

Understand well that part of this "sole decision making" would include being Residential Parent for School Purposes" when your child is ready for preschool or kindergarten.  Don't let him get that foot in the door, if that happens it would be hard to undo it.

[Swiggle]

While he can ask for anything he wants, it is up to you to object to it and document why.  For example, him seeking sole decision making is not reasonable. It was only several months ago he tried to obstruct your parenting when your child was just weeks old.  Fortunately you had proof he lied to get an order and leave the area so it was dismissed.  That alone should be reason enough for him not to have sole decision making and not to be able to move with your child up to 2 hours away without court permission.

You need to object or contest this.  Likely the court will not go along with it if you object, explain and document your reasons why you have concerns.  If this is just part of his demands for a settlement, then the answer is No.

Never ever agree to allowing him any more time, he got 50% from the start, so he's feeling entitled and seeking even more.  Never ever agree to no vacations.  Never ever agree to less holiday time than the county or state standard times.  Yes, court may order things that aren't in your favor, but you surely don't have to agree to them in a settlement.

Frankly, he can ask (and is asking) for anything he wishes, even if totally unreasonable and illogical.  You have an equal right to say No.  Don't feel pressured to accept any 'deal' that you believe is wrong.

Understand well that part of this "sole decision making" would include being Residential Parent for School Purposes" when your child is ready for preschool or kindergarten.  Don't let him get that foot in the door, if that happens it would be hard to undo it.

When I left my ex I had done some pretty dumb things, that coupled with his uNPD I was really living in the FOG. When I moved out I immediately suggested 50/50 parenting because in my mind at the time I thought it was what would be best for our kids. That they both should have equal access to dad and dad to them. I did not have a L and listened to suggestions from my ex's L and on the day of the divorce minutes before we went before the magistrate she came to me and said that they needed to list one of us as residential parent for school purposes. She assured me that this meant nothing, and that listing dad made sense because he was still living in our marital home and the kids were enrolled in school in that district. I lived 10 minutes away but in another school district.  I agreed, I had no idea that one little clause cut me off from making any decisions for my kids and their school. When I finally got my head out of my you know what and found a really good L and took him back to court for some other stuff I got this fixed so that he can't just up and move anywhere and enroll them in any school he wanted but it was so hard to undo.

If I could go back i would do so many things differently. My ex has stonewalled and not always been fair in scheduling with the kid, even though I have always done so. I wish i would have fought for more time with them in the beginning, I also see now that it would have been better for the kids in the long run.

You ex seems to really be making things as chaotic as possible. Can I ask (sorry if you've mentioned in another post) why you wouldn't be asking for more time and are being agreeable to 50/50 when he continues to show that he will always be difficult to work with. 50/50 with joint decision making can be so draining. Your D needs stability, routine wouldn't limiting her exposure to dad cut down on the chaos for her. You can always offer him time but being able to fall back to an agreement should he continue the crazy making will make your life a lot easier.