Finally enforced a boundary. He has left for a week, maybe more.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

As we've struggled through this past year of him claiming to want help, false starts and long waits to get referral and appointments, we've discussed boundaries and I set one.  After 9 years of rages and in part my making things worse for a few years, my inability to set and enforce boundaries (codependent I now realize) and his refusal until recently to see that there is a problem, I felt so very damaged by the abuse, even PTSD symptoms.  In learning about boundaries, I set one that was most important to me.  I've always been the one to leave the house and crash at others' houses when he raged, which contributed to making my home feel emotionally unsafe.  I recognize that I can't stop the rages, but we discussed and I said that in order to feel safe in my home, I need him to leave when he dysregulates.  In the calm moments we discussed it, we agreed (not that I gave him much of a choice) that if he dysregulates, he will leave and have several options in where to go.  We had a key from an understanding friend and talked about other friends of his as well as the last option, a hotel.  We talked about this being important to my safety and if he didn't leave, he would be looking at a separation as I truly felt I couldn't cope with one more rage directed at me.  Of course, I've said that for years and yet, never followed through with what I said would happen if events got out of control again.

Last night, he raged and when I asked him to leave, he refused so I did and spent the night at our friend's.  This morning, we talked and I told him it was time for us to separate for awhile, a week for now.  He's not happy, but he has spent the day texting me about how he screwed up and that he wants to work on noticing the signs earlier and following through with the plans in place.  I said I appreciate that, and reminded him that him being out of the house for now is not a punishment, it's only to allow us some space and for both of us to feel safe.

After all these years, I thought this would be more difficult than it was.  I actually feel good about enforcing the boundary and standing up for myself in what seems like the first time since things tanked in our marriage 9 years ago. 

[Michelle27]

As we've struggled through this past year of him claiming to want help, false starts and long waits to get referral and appointments, we've discussed boundaries and I set one.  After 9 years of rages and in part my making things worse for a few years, my inability to set and enforce boundaries (codependent I now realize) and his refusal until recently to see that there is a problem, I felt so very damaged by the abuse, even PTSD symptoms.  In learning about boundaries, I set one that was most important to me.  I've always been the one to leave the house and crash at others' houses when he raged, which contributed to making my home feel emotionally unsafe.  I recognize that I can't stop the rages, but we discussed and I said that in order to feel safe in my home, I need him to leave when he dysregulates.  In the calm moments we discussed it, we agreed (not that I gave him much of a choice) that if he dysregulates, he will leave and have several options in where to go.  We had a key from an understanding friend and talked about other friends of his as well as the last option, a hotel.  We talked about this being important to my safety and if he didn't leave, he would be looking at a separation as I truly felt I couldn't cope with one more rage directed at me.  Of course, I've said that for years and yet, never followed through with what I said would happen if events got out of control again.

Last night, he raged and when I asked him to leave, he refused so I did and spent the night at our friend's.  This morning, we talked and I told him it was time for us to separate for awhile, a week for now.  He's not happy, but he has spent the day texting me about how he screwed up and that he wants to work on noticing the signs earlier and following through with the plans in place.  I said I appreciate that, and reminded him that him being out of the house for now is not a punishment, it's only to allow us some space and for both of us to feel safe.

After all these years, I thought this would be more difficult than it was.  I actually feel good about enforcing the boundary and standing up for myself in what seems like the first time since things tanked in our marriage 9 years ago. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Michelle27, I admire your courage.  Keep it up!  I think it's important to stand up for yourself when something "doesn't work" for you, such as getting raged at.  Abuse is not OK.  Believe me, in the past, I listened to plenty of lectures and angry diatribes from my BPDxW.  No more (we're divorced).  I lacked experience with a hostile SO and, like you, had to learn about boundaries, which was a hard lesson for me.  Yet it has led to new growth and now I care too much about myself to allow myself to be the object of abuse ever again.  You don't deserve to be raged at.  LuckyJim

[Michelle27]

Thank you.  He texted this morning asking if I was ok.  My instinct was to tell him that I was fine, but I didn't.  I told him the truth... .that I am angry, feeling disrespected and hopeless after chance after chance, promise after promise and changes being made but not the one I need.

[Loosestrife]

Well done for following through. I have done this a few times with time part, but then nothing changes long term... .I have also heard the 'I'm sorry no I want to try and recognise signs earlier' story a few times. Take the thinking time and stay strong and honest. We are with you 

[Grey Kitty]

I think asking him to leave when he is raging instead of you going away as boundary enforcement is a tough thing to make work.

As you noticed... .even if he agrees to it when calm, he doesn't want to when dysregulated. That you went away at first to protect yourself (despite the rule!) was great self-care.

I hope you have a safe week.

 GK

[Michelle27]

I agree that it's a tough thing to ask of him, but he has repeatedly said that he will do it.  We've had plans and back up plans in place for awhile so it's not like he's stuck and has no options.  And in our case, him leaving instead of me is because of repeated rages in our home and the resulting "walking on eggshells" I feel all the time because of the knowledge it could happen at any time.  Triggers aren't always something I have said or done, so I honestly never know when they will come up.

It's funny... .now that he is out of the house, my feelings are not what I expected them to be.  I thought I would be sad but I am not.  My 2 main feelings are that I can breathe a sigh of relief because I KNOW I am emotionally safe and I am so proud of myself for following through on what we both had agreed would happen under this circumstance. 

I'm a bit nervous because tonight is a Boot Camp exercise class that we both attend.  Part of me doesn't want to go because we haven't had a good talk since he left and I think we do need to do that. 

[Michelle27]

I ended up inviting him for a coffee in a coffee shop yesterday for our first face to face talk until I told him he had to leave.  It was supposed to be about a 45 minute coffee but ended up almost 3 hours long.  It went much better than I expected.  We were both anxious about meeting.  We discussed ending the prior bad relationship and starting a new one so that trust in safety could grow.  I told him that until he has learned the way to spot an impending dysregulation/rage, it is best that we do not live apart but that I have no problem getting together, sort of "dating" while those things worked on.  I'm also going to work on healing the constant anxiety about when the next rage is going to come up and firm up my own tools on how to deal with his rages.  We expressed our love for each other, and hugged and kissed goodbye.  We also talked about how this might look for the longer term.  I have no problem "switching" places so that I stay at our friends' while they are away and he stays here with our daughter.  We can switch back and forth. 

[Grey Kitty]

How long his rages last?

How long if you are there and actively engaged (at least listening)?

How long does the mood go on after you leave?

[Lucky Jim]

Triggers aren't always something I have said or done, so I honestly never know when they will come up.

Agree, Michelle27.  In my experience, the triggers were always changing, so it was a moving target, impossible to predict.  I likened it to a storm cloud arising out of a clear blue sky -- I rarely saw it coming.  Like walking through a mine field, which gets exhausting.

LuckyJim

[Michelle27]

During most of the 9 years of rages, a rage could last many hours or days.  One really memorable one was a 12 hour rage about where to place a garbage bag in the garage.  We're talking a change of less than 3 inches.  When it started, I acknowledged that it may have been in his way where I placed it and had no problem placing it as he wanted.  That wasn't good enough and it went on and on until I finally left the house at which point he blew up my cell phone continuing to rage.  When I stopped answering texts or phone calls I was told I didn't care about him and obviously wanted to end the marriage because I was refusing to speak to him at that moment.  There were many like this before I learned to disengage and leave.  I tracked the rages for awhile, and they were about 3-6 weeks apart.  Of course, nothing ever got resolved except more things were added to my plate to do that he said would make the rages stop.  Nope, something else would come up.

He's had a lot of acceptance and clarity this past year (when not dysregulated of course) and has managed to dial down the rage from 9 on the Richter scale to 4 or 5 and use tools to have them dissipate within hours instead of days.  But in the meantime, I deal with PTSD symptoms when I see him starting to ramp, even at a 1 on the Richter Scale.  In calm moments, he absolutely understands that and when I enforced a boundary of him leaving when he gets like that, he was perfectly happy to volunteer to leave so that my sense of safety in my home could grow and I could heal from so many years of this.  We discussed wording, signals and he said he didn't want to hurt me anymore by subjecting me to them because he knows that they aren't truly about me.  My boundary was that I could no longer continue in this relationship while being raged at and just one more would have the consequence that we would need to separate.  He supported that, and honestly believed he has made enough progress to not get to that point, but it didn't happen.  He actually told me yesterday that he does respect that I enforced the consequence to the boundary and that I am willing to discuss how we can keep the relationship growing and healing as he works through therapy and I work on my stuff.  There were hugs, kisses and tears, and I can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[Michelle27]

Triggers aren't always something I have said or done, so I honestly never know when they will come up.

Agree, Michelle27.  In my experience, the triggers were always changing, so it was a moving target, impossible to predict.  I likened it to a storm cloud arising out of a clear blue sky -- I rarely saw it coming.  Like walking through a mine field, which gets exhausting.

LuckyJim

That's exactly what it was like which left me in a constant state of anxiety "walking on eggshells" waiting for what would make him blow.  He actually sees now that it's almost never about what he was freaking out about.  In this instance, he told me it dawned on him the next day what it was... .and it had nothing to do with what he yelled about.

[Lucky Jim]

That's the paradoxical part about BPD: often, the rage had nothing to do with the subject of the argument/diatribe.

But in the meantime, I deal with PTSD symptoms when I see him starting to ramp, even at a 1 on the Richter Scale.

Same for me.  It got to the point where I had to stand by a door when I saw her beginning to boil over.  I kept an overnight bag in my car, just in case . . . which came in handy several times.  Not fun!

LuckyJim

[Michelle27]

Same here, Lucky Jim.  For 2 or 3 years I kept work clothes, pj's, toothbrush, etc. in a bag in my car at all times.  Came in handy dozens of times.  I'd repack the bag with fresh stuff upon return after I had had to flee. 

[Loosestrife]

Triggers are a moving feast and sometimes they aren't even present but mood changes still happen. The get away pack and vehicle scenario makes me question our sanity as nons - why do we stay?

[Michelle27]

Triggers are a moving feast and sometimes they aren't even present but mood changes still happen. The get away pack and vehicle scenario makes me question our sanity as nons - why do we stay?

I have wondered that myself, Loosestrife.  I assume there is some love left under the anxiety and rage, but time will tell.  I know I have worked on my codependent tendencies and my need to "fix" as well as my self esteem enough to know that I don't HAVE to stay.  But in order for me to want to stay any longer, we both have work to do and this will be my last try before I know I need to cut my losses. 

This particular trigger was so insane... .him totally imagining that my phone call with my girlfriend was "code" about him (it wasn't).  I can't be at risk anymore of that kind of "trigger" coming up.

[Grey Kitty]

I was asking about the intensity/length, thinking about what YOU could do about them... .because ... .well ... .boundary enforcement has to start with YOU. If you put the burden of it on him, it becomes a rule... .and if he's dysregulated, he's gonna break the rule. And then you are stuck dealing with both his raging, AND his breaking the rule.

For me, it was a lot easier than it sounds for you, because my wife's approach was more on the passive-aggressive button-pushing side of things. She was traumatized by her mom's raging as a girl, and even as an adult. She actually had enough trouble expressing her anger that her main technique was to push my buttons until *I* got angry enough to shout... .and I'm a guy with a very slow temper. She had to work hard at it... .but she figured out ways to be up to the job.  Eventually somebody would sound angry, and it was always me first back in those days.


On a pragmatic point--I'm gonna suggest that you keep with the rule that he has to go away when he gets that angry / raging, because it feels really awful for you to be kicked out of the house by his anger... .but (in your own mind) try to re-write the script you use to get there, as a series of boundary enforcement actions.

1. If he expresses anger at you or some kind of verbal abuse, (hopefully before full-blown raging!) say "I will not be spoken to that way" or "I will not be verbally abused" or some other statement of boundary enforcement which asserts your right not to be treated that way, and is easiest/least triggering. (If the phrase 'verbal abuse' is triggering for your H, don't use it, for instance)

2. If he does not immediately stop after that statement, leave the room.

3. If he follows you out of the room, leave the house.

4. Once you have driven to a safe place / safe distance, perhaps 15~20 minutes later, allowing some of the adrenalin to subside in both you and your husband, THEN send him a text, perhaps asking him to confirm when he's left the house and it is safe for you to return... .or otherwise addressing this rule/boundary.


Note--none of this prevents your H from realizing that he's getting angry and leaving to protect both of you from his raging... .he could do it before he says the first angry word. So as he gets better you may not need it.

What it does do is this--it puts YOU in control of your immediate safety, and gets you out of the path of his rage. I believe that feeling 'stuck' or 'trapped' by it is one of the most traumatizing aspects of it. As you discover that you can protect yourself from his raging, it will (I hope) help you recover from your PTSD over it.

[Michelle27]

Thanks, Grey Kitty.  That sounds great, and maybe that's what we'll talk about when we are ready to once again reside under the same roof.  I had coffee with him this morning and it didn't go as well as the one earlier this week.  We are now talking about renting a room somewhere for cheap that we can use to alternate staying so we each get time at home and our daughter has that stability.  At this point, we are so raw that I think it's premature to talk about living in the same home just yet.  We both recognize that we both need to heal and at this point, just having him in the house would for me, be anxiety producing while I wait for the next dysregulation, and that anxiety keeps me from always making the perfect responses to it.    I recognize my part in that which is why I think we need the space we have right now. 

By the same token, meeting for coffee has been ok (public place).  And I have invited him for dinner tomorrow night.  Of course, he tried to extend it by asking to sleep with me tomorrow night and I'm just not sure that's a good idea.  He says he wants to cuddle with his wife, and while I understand that need, I don't know yet if my anxiety is down enough to be able to relax and not be hyper vigilant for him to be off.  I'm willing to play it by ear at this point but I felt a little pushed when he asked to sleep over with me.

[Grey Kitty]

About the raging boundaries I recommended--I'm going to suggest you don't talk to you your husband about them.

The powerful thing about boundary enforcement is that you simply need to do it. You don't need his agreement. You don't need his consent. You don't need his willingness. You don't even need to give him advance notice.

Find the resolve within yourself to DO it, and you won't need to say much else to him.

Also cut yourself some slack--if you suddenly notice that you let him rage at you for 5 minutes before you enforced your boundary, that's OK. Just enforce it right when you catch up. You will catch it earlier next time.

Are there particular times of the day (or night) when he is more likely to be provocative or raging?

If you aren't sure your anxiety is down enough... .if you aren't feeling safe... .then you made the right choice.

[Michelle27]

They seem to happen most often at night.  That's why I spent several years carrying a bag in my car of pj's, toothbrush and work clothes.  He hasn't for about 10 months but a regular habit of his is to keep me awake "discussing" things no matter how many times I tell him I need to get sleep and even if I try to remove myself to another room.  That was one of the reasons I started carrying the bag in my car.  It became handy when rages happened earlier in the evening too.

I know I'm probably being stubborn about needing him to leave.  But I got to the point of being unable to relax in my home when he's home wondering he was going to ramp up and when.  Having to leave dozens of times also has left me feeling that my home is unsafe.  Numerous discussions with my husband over this as we've tried to work it out over the years (when he's not dysregulated) and he claims to want nothing more than for me to feel emotionally safe in my home and not anxious.  He has asked me to ask him to leave because he knows that he isn't aware when he's ramping and I guess this time was the last straw.  He wants to learn how to get to the point of knowing the signs himself so that he can leave on his own, but he's not there yet. 

[Grey Kitty]

They seem to happen most often at night.  That's why I spent several years carrying a bag in my car of pj's, toothbrush and work clothes.

Planning ahead so you can get out easier is a good idea.

If he wants to talk (presumably argue) when you are in bed, have you said "I need my sleep and won't discuss this now". and then left the bed to sleep on the couch?

I know I'm probably being stubborn about needing him to leave.

My concern is not that you are being stubborn, or that you want him to leave instead of having to leave the house yourself

My concern is that you cannot force him to leave--he has to decide to comply with your request, and that just isn't going to work most of the time when he's dysregulated.

If your only path to safety from his raging is his decision to go away instead of raging at you... .you are at his mercy about the raging. NOT GOOD.

[Michelle27]

They seem to happen most often at night.  That's why I spent several years carrying a bag in my car of pj's, toothbrush and work clothes.

Planning ahead so you can get out easier is a good idea.

If he wants to talk (presumably argue) when you are in bed, have you said "I need my sleep and won't discuss this now". and then left the bed to sleep on the couch?

I know I'm probably being stubborn about needing him to leave.

My concern is not that you are being stubborn, or that you want him to leave instead of having to leave the house yourself

My concern is that you cannot force him to leave--he has to decide to comply with your request, and that just isn't going to work most of the time when he's dysregulated.

If your only path to safety from his raging is his decision to go away instead of raging at you... .you are at his mercy about the raging. NOT GOOD.

I guess I'm at the point that I understand the illness enough to know that it's not possible to have a "normal" relationship. We've had many discussions about it when he's not dysregulated and he knows I struggle with the feeling of being unsafe in my own homes and he sincerely wants to avoid that.  He absolutely wants me to have that feeling of safety and he is seeking treatment to be able to get to the point of seeing the signs earlier enough to leave on his own and has asked me to tell him to leave if he gets past that point.  He's actually excited that tomorrow's CBT class topic is dysregulation so he hopes to get some insight.

But saying that I am at the mercy of his rages is exactly my problem.  I feel a constant state of low grade anxiety wondering when the next one is going to hit.  I can't be open about my feelings about anything (positive or negative) because that often triggers him.  So I do what I can to make sure there's no triggers but sometimes, as we all know, they aren't related to us at all (this last one before I asked him to leave wasn't about me personally at all and he wasn't even able to identify the trigger until the next day).  And that inability to be open and vulnerable makes me feel like we're in a roommate situation, not a healthy relationship. 

[Michelle27]

And yes, I have said that I need to sleep and even removed myself to another room.  Occasionally that works but most of the time he follows me to continue it.

[Grey Kitty]

And yes, I have said that I need to sleep and even removed myself to another room.  Occasionally that works but most of the time he follows me to continue it.

If he follows you, enforce the next level boundary. Leave the house.

I *know* it sucks to be unable to be safe in your house.

If you think about it, having a safe and peaceful night's sleep is worth it. YOU are worth giving yourself that peace, whatever it takes to do it, no matter what your husband feels about it. (That's his problem, not yours)

But saying that I am at the mercy of his rages is exactly my problem.  I feel a constant state of low grade anxiety wondering when the next one is going to hit.

  DING, DING, DING. That realization is a winning one for you!

The only way you are going to feel safe is to understand that you have the power and ability to make yourself safe.

Have you read about Therapeutic Separation

Since he is in therapy and seeking treatment, and especially since he acknowledges that there is some need for him to move out so you can feel safe, this could be a real possibility for the two of you, if you can get a therapist onboard to supervise it.

And that inability to be open and vulnerable makes me feel like we're in a roommate situation, not a healthy relationship. 

Yeah, that is tough. Really tough. I believe the two of you share a daughter, so you will have that connection whatever else happens, right?

[Michelle27]

Yes, we share a daughter.  And yes, I have read about therapeutic separation.  I actually wanted that months ago, but his response was that if we separate, he won't be motivated to make the changes he wants to (might quit therapy, etc.) which is the reason I didn't pursue it.  Now, however, we are in that position, at least being separated. 

So frustrating.  He says he wants/needs me to be open and vulnerable with him but it's so hard when I feel like every time I do open up, even a little, he uses that to find a way to hurt me.  Yesterday when we had coffee, we were talking about him coming over to have a home cooked meal which he says he is missing.  He asked about the possibility of cuddling and maybe even spending the night but I said I couldn't commit to being comfortable with that.  Hours later, thinking about his need for me to be open and vulnerable, I texted him with a message saying that perhaps, if things go well, I would consider some cuddling time with him.  No response at all.  So this morning I text him and say his non response made me feel like he was being passive aggressive and that my anxiety was up and perhaps dinner today wasn't a good idea.  He said he thought what I said yesterday was rhetoric and didn't need a reply.  But I truly believe it was passive aggressive to not reply.  I also asked him to make an effort to see our daughter as the only time he saw her this week was when I suggested it and she spent a few hours with him that day.  I don't know why, but he won't keep her overnight which I think she needs.

[Grey Kitty]

Geez that has to be tough.

If you have a chance where you can stop worrying about your husband... .make sure that you are validating what your daughter is feeling.

Her dad moving out has to be confusing to her.

Her dad not making time to see her has to be hurtful.

She could be mad at either you or her dad over any of this.

Validate whatever she's feeling the best you can.

[Michelle27]

Oh, I absolutely am.  So far she's been pretty busy with spring break socializing with friends and some sleepovers so she's been pretty busy and she is unaware that I have engineered both visits this week as I don't believe she needs to know that.  I have just told her when it's happening.  But the day he left I talked to her about this being temporary and that in no way was I going to keep her and her Dad away from each other, which she was glad to hear.  He on the other hand, when I wasn't around, told her to "be strong" which of course upset her... .We are also lucky because for most of her life he worked out of town so she was used to him being gone for 4 days and home for 4 days. She has picked up the phone and talked to him whenever she wants which is good.  He wants to come over now to work on his boat trailer so I am leaving the house as I think that's best.  Our daughter thinks it's to go shopping, not to avoid him.

[Grey Kitty]

  Sounds excellent.

I believe you are correct--your daughter doesn't need to know that you are engineering the visits. Especially because his attitude about it could change on a dime.

He on the other hand, when I wasn't around, told her to "be strong" which of course upset her.

Here's the place it gets tricky. Validate that she's upset... .without either blaming him... .or defending him. Other parents can give you better tips on how to do that than I can. If this kind of thing happens more often, you might ask on the legal board or the co-parenting after the split board for advice.

That his short-term absence doesn't need an explanation makes it easier. If it turns into a longer-term one, you will need to say more.

[Michelle27]

I am trying to do the "right" thing.  Although my husband isn't making it easy... .constantly texting things like, "I know I need to make you feel safe.  I am building momentum to do that", "I am miserable without you", "you are my whole world", etc...   I know he's trying to convince me that he can come back, and I actually had a dream last night that I let him back in and nothing changed.  Ugh.  But I know for me, my anxiety over the possibility of him ramping up right now is going to make using all the right tools difficult for me.  I know (but am not telling him this yet) that once I have some time to heal and not have that automatic reaction of anxiety at the level it is  now, I will be able to do the correct thing in order to support him through his therapy.

[Grey Kitty]

  Giving yourself space to heal and allowing your anxiety to go down *IS* the correct thing for him and his therapy. (Don't expect him to understand that now!)

You know how badly you will handle time with him right now. You know that he is upset and hurt and rejected while away from you... .and you know that if you were triggered, scared, or angry when he was there with you, that would be worse, both for you and for him.

By keeping distance, you are protecting both of you from that situation.

Think about what you will look for in yourself to help determine when you are ready for more time with him.

[Michelle27]

 Giving yourself space to heal and allowing your anxiety to go down *IS* the correct thing for him and his therapy. (Don't expect him to understand that now!)

You know how badly you will handle time with him right now. You know that he is upset and hurt and rejected while away from you... .and you know that if you were triggered, scared, or angry when he was there with you, that would be worse, both for you and for him.

By keeping distance, you are protecting both of you from that situation.

Think about what you will look for in yourself to help determine when you are ready for more time with him.

Thank you for saying this.  I have been feeling like I'm having to justify my insistence that he and I not reside under the same roof and this put it so succinctly that I feel a little more at peace with my decision.