dBPDh, disreg over 'work'/money and boundaries

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi All,

My dBPDh is low functioning and in the 8 years we've been together he has not worked formally (he did do a couple of favour type jobs and received some cash but each was like a days work and a one off event).

He is terrible with money and when we were first together one of his disreg behaviours was to spend all our money and run up the credit cards. This got us into financial difficulty and I took complete control of the finances paying him an allowance for himself each month which he can do what he wants with but when it's gone it is gone. I manage all the bills, try to put some away for emergencies, manage buying things for the girls and try to take us all camping / to the beach a couple of times a year etc. I do this on my wage and his little bit of disability benefit he gets (we're in the UK so dis ben is a bit different here).

He has been in therapy and has made improvements. I started trusting him more with the girls and he has been doing school runs in the morning and afternoon and this has been going well. He also has our smallest one (who is 3) in the afternoons three days a week from 12noon till 3pm when I get home. All this has been going well and I have told him I am impressed with his new approach and that he is clearly trying to change old patterns.

Now however, after about 12 months of progress,  he has reverted right back to his nasty dis reg self. The reason? He has a hobby working on his landrover which we use for camping trips, it broke in January, it was a big job to fix and cost us a lot on money which he is responsible for paying off from his allowance and from scrapping parts. He mended it eventually which set him off to some extent because it was a pressure. Now it is mended he has this idea that to bring in extra income he wants to set up a business buying scrap landrovers and breaking them down for parts then selling the parts. Great you'd think - a bit of work that is really like a hobby and might make some cash... .

No! He hasn't got further than breaking the original scrapper up and speaking to a friend/acquaintance about unit space for storage (which he can have for free if he does a days work for this guy once a month) and already he is back to his snarly, bad tempered self that he was two years ago.

Why is this? I don't understand what his problem is? When he was looking after the kids and house and nothing much else he was fine . He is the one who brought up this idea, I've listened but not really commented on it (too much past experience with his grand ideas that never materialise). I have said if he wants to try this out I'm happy for him to do so. I've helped him think about scheduling so it fits around our existing childcare.

Why is he so bad tempered and horrible to me and the kids when he is following a dream he has? We're supportive of it, I could understand him being like this if we weren't. He says he enjoys working on landrovers so why does he huff and puff and sit with a scowl on his face and snap and be horrible to me now that he is getting the opportunity to do more of what he says he enjoys?

We fell out this morning as I called from my walk into work and asked how things were and he gave me an angry tirade about how the girls wouldn't get dressed. I said something along the lines of "That sounds frustrating. They are only 3 and 4 though so I usually find it best just to do it with them and make it fun not just ask them or tell them to get dressed". His response "Forget it! I'll talk to you later!" This is just one example of how he is at the moment. I really want to text him this:

"Husband I am really fed up of your attitude just at the moment. You know how I feel about you taking your anger out on me and the children. Why would the children want to do anything for you when all you do is walk around with a scowl on your face and shout and bark orders at them? I am unhappy about the effect of your new venture on our family life and unless we can resolve this I am not prepared to support it. I love you."

I am guessing this isn't recommended but I don't think I can not say it.

I am happy for him to have hobbies, self employment, work whatever outside of the home I think it could be good for him even, but not when it impacts so directly and negatively on me and the girls.  That sounds a bit selfish when I write it out like that but it's how I feel.

Any thoughts?

PT

[PeppermintTea]

Hi All,

My dBPDh is low functioning and in the 8 years we've been together he has not worked formally (he did do a couple of favour type jobs and received some cash but each was like a days work and a one off event).

He is terrible with money and when we were first together one of his disreg behaviours was to spend all our money and run up the credit cards. This got us into financial difficulty and I took complete control of the finances paying him an allowance for himself each month which he can do what he wants with but when it's gone it is gone. I manage all the bills, try to put some away for emergencies, manage buying things for the girls and try to take us all camping / to the beach a couple of times a year etc. I do this on my wage and his little bit of disability benefit he gets (we're in the UK so dis ben is a bit different here).

He has been in therapy and has made improvements. I started trusting him more with the girls and he has been doing school runs in the morning and afternoon and this has been going well. He also has our smallest one (who is 3) in the afternoons three days a week from 12noon till 3pm when I get home. All this has been going well and I have told him I am impressed with his new approach and that he is clearly trying to change old patterns.

Now however, after about 12 months of progress,  he has reverted right back to his nasty dis reg self. The reason? He has a hobby working on his landrover which we use for camping trips, it broke in January, it was a big job to fix and cost us a lot on money which he is responsible for paying off from his allowance and from scrapping parts. He mended it eventually which set him off to some extent because it was a pressure. Now it is mended he has this idea that to bring in extra income he wants to set up a business buying scrap landrovers and breaking them down for parts then selling the parts. Great you'd think - a bit of work that is really like a hobby and might make some cash... .

No! He hasn't got further than breaking the original scrapper up and speaking to a friend/acquaintance about unit space for storage (which he can have for free if he does a days work for this guy once a month) and already he is back to his snarly, bad tempered self that he was two years ago.

Why is this? I don't understand what his problem is? When he was looking after the kids and house and nothing much else he was fine . He is the one who brought up this idea, I've listened but not really commented on it (too much past experience with his grand ideas that never materialise). I have said if he wants to try this out I'm happy for him to do so. I've helped him think about scheduling so it fits around our existing childcare.

Why is he so bad tempered and horrible to me and the kids when he is following a dream he has? We're supportive of it, I could understand him being like this if we weren't. He says he enjoys working on landrovers so why does he huff and puff and sit with a scowl on his face and snap and be horrible to me now that he is getting the opportunity to do more of what he says he enjoys?

We fell out this morning as I called from my walk into work and asked how things were and he gave me an angry tirade about how the girls wouldn't get dressed. I said something along the lines of "That sounds frustrating. They are only 3 and 4 though so I usually find it best just to do it with them and make it fun not just ask them or tell them to get dressed". His response "Forget it! I'll talk to you later!" This is just one example of how he is at the moment. I really want to text him this:

"Husband I am really fed up of your attitude just at the moment. You know how I feel about you taking your anger out on me and the children. Why would the children want to do anything for you when all you do is walk around with a scowl on your face and shout and bark orders at them? I am unhappy about the effect of your new venture on our family life and unless we can resolve this I am not prepared to support it. I love you."

I am guessing this isn't recommended but I don't think I can not say it.

I am happy for him to have hobbies, self employment, work whatever outside of the home I think it could be good for him even, but not when it impacts so directly and negatively on me and the girls.  That sounds a bit selfish when I write it out like that but it's how I feel.

Any thoughts?

PT

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[PeppermintTea]

The more I think about this the more freaking angry I get. I am absolutely seething right now!

I don't want to let this go I want to go home and let him know exactly how I feel and why. I feel he has undone any work he did over the last year and all the mending we have done on our relationship. All the good parenting he has done with the kids he is throwing away. Right now his 'good will  account' with me is overdrawn.

I remember this seething anger from way back and I honestly thought I would not feel it like this again - that makes me more angry!

PT

[formflier]

"Husband I am really fed up of your attitude just at the moment. You know how I feel about you taking your anger out on me and the children. Why would the children want to do anything for you when all you do is walk around with a scowl on your face and shout and bark orders at them? I am unhappy about the effect of your new venture on our family life and unless we can resolve this I am not prepared to support it. I love you."

Things like this are best said in person... .that way you can validate... .test the waters... .make  sure you are heard.

Here is the thing... .if you text him when he is already upset... .there is about zero chance he will "hear" you.

Probably will make the dysreg worse.

Tell me about your validation efforts lately... .  (not saying this is issue... .but a good starting point for me to understand some r/s dynamics)

[PeppermintTea]

Hi FF thanks for replying.

At the moment my validation efforts are directed at my children not my husband. As far as I'm concerned he can go 'validate' himself.

I don't know how to validate his anger at the moment because I have no empathy for it at all. I fear any attempt at validation by me would end up going like this:

"Husband I hear that you are angry it must be hard to feel that way. Now try thinking about what it's like from our three year old perspective of having you bawl in her face because she won't put her trousers on in a timely fashion. Not nice is it? So whilst you are entitled to your feelings you can also stick them!"

Sorry FF I know you are helping me but I just can't validate at the moment. I can't empathise and I can't try to walk a mile in his shoes. I'm stuck  :'(

[formflier]

Sorry FF I know you are helping me but I just can't validate at the moment. I can't empathise and I can't try to walk a mile in his shoes. I'm stuck  :'(

No need to apologize... .I've been there... .validation is not going to happen.  You know what... .I'll be there again someday.

We are all human.

I've got kids as well... .the pain parents feel watching this disorder affect the kids... .well... it's a unique pain.  I would much rather my wife yell at me than the kids... . Hang in there!     Hugs over the internet!

Here is the thing... .when you can't validate anymore (for whatever reason) the default should be to concentrate on avoiding "invalidating" your SO.  Many times that means we keep our mouths shut... .or leave the room to vent... .who knows.

What is your understanding of the relationship between validation and invalidation?

ff

[PeppermintTea]

Hey FF,

Thanks for sticking with me on this I appreciate it.

My understanding of validation / invalidation is this:

Feelings are feelings they are not right or wrong. The fact that my husband has no logical reason I can see to be angry at his current situation doesn't mean that he isn't, or can turn it off.

I know that one instance of invalidation can undo or wipe out loads of previous validation. So if I had said to my husband "Why are you so angry? You shouldn't be so angry all the time" that would be invalidating his feeling. Any previous validation wouldn't matter - that fact that I'm conveying that he 'shouldn't feel angry'  negates anything previous.

I know I could validate him and say "I can hear anger in your voice. Tell me about it, it must feel bad to have so much anger inside."

Here's my problem: I know my husband probably felt invalidated this morning when I called and he told me about DD not getting dressed and I suggested  a way that works for me. BUT I don't give a *insert expletive* whether he felt validated or not. He was shouting at my youngest child in a completely over the top and out of control manner and I was not there to help her or soothe and validate her. That makes me hopping mad. I don't care if he feels invalidated or not what he was doing was not valid (his feelings are but his actions are not).

Shouting at our children is one massive trigger for me and he knows it. It makes me want to change the locks and never let him near any of us ever again.

So getting me to validate his anger (when the actions are directed at my children)  is almost certainly going to result in an epic fail on my part because it pushes me right over my limit almost immediately.

PT

[Grey Kitty]

  PT! Been a while... .

At the moment my validation efforts are directed at my children not my husband. As far as I'm concerned he can go 'validate' himself.

I don't know how to validate his anger at the moment because I have no empathy for it at all. I fear any attempt at validation by me would end up going like this:

"Husband I hear that you are angry it must be hard to feel that way. Now try thinking about what it's like from our three year old perspective of having you bawl in her face because she won't put her trousers on in a timely fashion. Not nice is it? So whilst you are entitled to your feelings you can also stick them!"

I struck that down to the part I'd recommend in that case... .

Your instincts here are spot on. You aren't feeling compassionate and empathetic, you are feeling PISSED. You shouldn't try to validate at a time like that--it will go badly. VERY BADLY.

If all you can do is say "I can't talk to you right now." that isn't validating or supportive... .but it is waaaaay better than the dozens of things you are working so hard NOT to say to him!

So start by allowing yourself to feel PISSED AS H*LL, and not speaking of this feeling to your husband.


What should you say/do about your husband?

My experience is that when I'm that PISSED, it is because I let him go past a boundary. So pause and think about what has you so angry. Think about what he's doing that is against your values. (My suspicion is it has to do with how he is treating your children)

Then work out how you can enforce boundaries to prevent this better in the future, BEFORE you get that pissed.

The anger is telling you something important.

[PeppermintTea]

Hmmm you are right he is stepping all over my boundary about parenting the girls. He has been angry at something and so is painting them both black. He also I think is projecting - he says DD is 'frustrated', 'belligerent', 'unhelpful' and 'angry' when actually these are his feelings. I think she sometimes is mirroring these things back at him.

At tea time DD4 was cross about something and I asked her why she said "because daddy says he won't do anything for us anymore like washing or cooking." I said "Oh did he, that wasn't very nice was it it must have hurt your feelings. I will make sure that you are always looked after and I will talk to your dad about what he said."

So basically this morning he said something like the following to our 3 and 4 year olds: "you won't do what I say so I won't do anything for you". Top parenting skills 

The only saving grace I can see in this situation was that the girls and I can talk about it. We also have a close and involved family (my FOO) and they give validation and different perspectives to our girls which is invaluable. They also help a bit with childcare when I say I'm struggling so tomorrow Grandma is picking up from school/nursery for me.

Because I'm working to support us I need him to do nursery and school runs and to be able to trust him. What can I do to enforce this boundary around how we parent when I'm sometimes not there?

PT

[maxsterling]

The same happens with my wife, who is also very low functioning.  She has no hobbies except facebook, generally no motivation towards anything, and hasn't been able to keep a job.  If she spends her day going to AA meetings, Yoga, and meeting with friends, she is in general okay.  But the minute she tries to do any task, work, clean, or go shopping, she is immediately frustrated, hates everyone and everything, and blames it all on others.

I'm not sure what her issue is.  I know shame is a part of it, because she feels like a failure.  Any setback in her task and she feels like a failure, and blames others before examining herself.  And anything of any importance that she does, she always makes a point of letting everyone know how much work it was and how she has to re-arrange her whole life in order to do the things she claims "others" make her do.

It's really just an immature behavior pattern like a teenage child may have.  He/she doesn't want to do chores or be responsible, and throws out every tantrum and excuse as to why not.  I am guessing that is what his issue is now.  What he is doing is stressful, and he wants to use that as an excuse to say, "see what hard work I am doing?  I don't have time to take care of the kids now - it's your job!"

[formflier]

What can I do to enforce this boundary around how we parent when I'm sometimes not there?

This might seem a bit "hair splitting"... .but sometimes the nuance really matters... .

Is this a boundary... .or a rule... .or an agreement on how to parent.

I'm not seeing a boundary... .because it's not you.  It's "shared property"  (for example sake... .not saying your kids are property... )

Thoughts?

FF

[PeppermintTea]

I totally see it as a rule and boundary.

Our children are precious to me. When he damages them with anger and poor parenting it hurts them and me and I can't tolerate it. This is what led to me asking him to move out in 2012. Honestly if he can't put in place an effective alternative strategy for when he dis-regs then this is a deal breaker for me. I thought based on his behaviour of the last 12 months that he had done so which is why I am so PISSED (thank you waverrider) right now that he is doing this.

When not dis regulated he agrees that expressing anger at the children is damaging to them. I had a counsellor in 2013 (who was great) and she asked him to attend two sessions with us. She was incredulous about how he spoke about the kids, splitting black etc (they were 3 and 2 then) and she called him on it and told him what he was doing. Eventually after several days he apologised to me about his clouded view and said I should take the lead in parenting and help guide him because he doesn't have good role models in his family. So he gets it.

PT

[PeppermintTea]

Ahhh now I get it. He just emailed me.

I haven't gushed with enthusiasm for this venture. I haven't told him how wonderful it will be and how great he is. I've just said yeah ok go for it.

So over the last 7 years I've supported him through:

a sociology degree so he could lecture. - he says now he has no intention because he 'hates other people'

an electrical qualification so he could be a self employed electrician - he can't do this now

a house renovation -  he stopped half way through leaving me to learn to tile, lay carpet and finance the whole thing with a baby and toddler along for the ride. He then took an overdose because we were financially screwed (instead of helping me figure out how to get us out of it).

So... .I'm not gushing about this because in the back of my mind I'm thinking what financial burden am I going to be left with, when he walks away how will I get rid of whatever scrappers and rubbish he has left behind, and what will he do (another OD perhaps?). Kind of dampens my enthusiasm.

But he is angry because I am not 'supportive' so that is why the kids and I are getting it in the neck yet again.

I haven't said any of the above to him - but I really do want to!

What should I do or say here?

[ydrys017]

At the moment my validation efforts are directed at my children not my husband. As far as I'm concerned he can go 'validate' himself.

I don't know how to validate his anger at the moment because I have no empathy for it at all. I fear any attempt at validation by me would end up going like this:

"Husband I hear that you are angry it must be hard to feel that way. Now try thinking about what it's like from our three year old perspective of having you bawl in her face because she won't put her trousers on in a timely fashion. Not nice is it? So whilst you are entitled to your feelings you can also stick them!"

... .but I just can't validate at the moment. I can't empathise and I can't try to walk a mile in his shoes. I'm stuck  :'(

 I can really relate to this right now... .  I don't have the depth of advice like the others, just a note that you are not alone in this scenario.   

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm you are right he is stepping all over my boundary about parenting the girls. He has been angry at something and so is painting them both black. He also I think is projecting - he says DD is 'frustrated', 'belligerent', 'unhelpful' and 'angry' when actually these are his feelings. I think she sometimes is mirroring these things back at him.

At tea time DD4 was cross about something and I asked her why she said "because daddy says he won't do anything for us anymore like washing or cooking." I said "Oh did he, that wasn't very nice was it it must have hurt your feelings. I will make sure that you are always looked after and I will talk to your dad about what he said."

So basically this morning he said something like the following to our 3 and 4 year olds: "you won't do what I say so I won't do anything for you". Top parenting skills 

When I hear "stepping over my boundary" I see two things.

1. He is behaving badly, and you are justifiably angry.

2. You have a rule, or aren't taking boundary enforcement actions which can prevent this from happening.

Rule: "Be a reasonable parent." This could be more specific, but it doesn't matter for my point... .A RULE means he gets to decide if he's going to obey the rule or break the rule.

Boundary enforcement: "If you say something hurtful to my child, I will remove my child from your presence to protect the child." In this case, you are responsible for taking the action. He cannot stop you from taking this action.

Those are examples of how the two things work... .however... .some problems have easier boundary enforcement actions than others. There are MANY parenting issues that required difficult/expensive/drastic actions to enforce boundaries on them.

So basically this morning he said something like the following to our 3 and 4 year olds: "you won't do what I say so I won't do anything for you". ... .

What can I do to enforce this boundary around how we parent when I'm sometimes not there?

One potential boundary enforcement action I can think of would be to enroll your kids in daycare when you are working so he doesn't spend time with them unsupervised.

That is a pretty harsh (and expensive) boundary to enforce. If you suggest/threaten this option, that isn't enforcing a boundary. The enforcement action is DOING it, not talking about it.

I'm going to guess that you won't want to do this... .at least until he gets a lot worse. If you aren't willing to take the boundary enforcement action, time to reach for other tools.

S.E.T. might help his parenting.

Over the long term, a steady diet of lots of validation will help a lot.

If you don't have boundaries ready to enforce as needed over verbal abuse, etc. make sure that those are ready.

   This sounds like a really tough time for you.

[formflier]

What should I do or say here?

Have you ever asked him for additional solutions?  Or does he respond to and answer questions?  Basically curious if some smart questioning can help him think that some ideas are his... .when in reality... .you were suggesting them with leading questions.  (totally just a stab in the dark)

Back to the issue of what kind of parent he is... .does he ever ask for advice?  Does he take unsolicited advice well (from you)?

[PeppermintTea]

One potential boundary enforcement action I can think of would be to enroll your kids in daycare when you are working so he doesn't spend time with them unsupervised.

That is a pretty harsh (and expensive) boundary to enforce. If you suggest/threaten this option, that isn't enforcing a boundary. The enforcement action is DOING it, not talking about it.

Oh Grey Kitty,

Here we have the very reason why I'm so very mad right now.

From 2012 when I went back to work after maternity leave through to September 2014 when DD's started reception and pre-school respectively this was the boundary I was enforcing.

When I originally went back to work the idea was for H to look after the children. Within a week this became unrealistic and I booked childcare. This cost me £75 a day for about 18 months - a massive financial burden which we just about struggled through.

He for his part committed to work on himself through therapy so that we could be a stronger family and he could build a healthy relationship with the kids and with me. He was seriously dis-reg'd when I put the girls in childcare but we worked through that.

He has been so much better and I've been to relieved and proud of him (and have told him this) but now he is back sliding I feel like a real fool for trusting him.

He made real progress, I trusted him, he let me down (again in a long series of 'let me downs'.  In my head that makes me a fool. I didn't learn from past experiences.

We didn't really talk last night but we hugged when I left this morning and I'm feeling in a calmer place to maybe talk to him later. Just not sure what to say.

PT.

[PeppermintTea]

Hi FF,

He isn't really solution focused - like if I asked how he thought things could go differently he would say he doesn't know. He is open to suggestions over things like parenting but not when he's disreg'd.

So maybe tonight or tomorrow we might be able to talk about this as I have also calmed down a bit.

I think there are two things here for me:

1) I need him to look at what strategies we can have in place for parenting when he is disreg'd so it doesn't get taken out on the kids and send me through the roof.

2) With this new venture of his he needs to hear me enthusiastic about it and really wanting him to make a go of it (which I am and I do)... .but I need to hear that if/when the going gets tough it isn't going to end up with me shouldering the burden and him giving up.

PT

[Grey Kitty]

  Start by forgiving yourself for trusting him and being let down.

I think the next step is remembering that you can take him out of the unsupervised childcare equation to protect your children... .and thinking long and hard... .and finding your threshold for doing that, or at least some aspects of it.

With this kind of boundary enforcement, your sanity is protected by creating in your own mind a HARD, SHARP edge. Any behavior short of the edge is tolerated, and you address it in the least invalidating / most validating way possible. The instant the behavior crosses the edge, you do the enforcement. Quickly, without a fuss, and with as little JADEing as you can manage.

Getting this clear in your head changes the game--for you! You realize that you have the power to protect your children when they need protection. The anger and the fear will start to subside. 

Then you will have more energy and compassion and your ability to be validating and supportive with your husband over his new business can also improve.

You will also have a better shot at using the best communication tools here to get him to address and improve his parenting skills. (I recommend reading up on S.E.T. next. It is in The Lessons)