Everything thing I have ever learned

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hey guys, after being 7 months out, and after all the reading material and research I would like to talk about everything I have learned in regards to Cluster Bs, this is all my own material in the sense that I have not copied and pasted, this is everything that I have personally learned, and I really hope It helps all of you.

The first thing I red into when studying Cluster Bs was the initial behavior that may occur when they feel threatened, angered or upset, and this is what I came up with:

The Anti Social/Narc may lash out and attack you

The BPD  may focus their anger inwards by smashing up personal belongings/ self harming

The HPD may just slam the door and end up sleeping at some guys house  


These are all different styles of learnt behavior when faced with difficult situations, but in hindsight to all this all these reactions all carry the same end message/ goal and that is ATTENTION!

I have also red into what can only be described as "THE GAME"  have any of you guys heard of Charlie Sheen? he is a Narcissist and im sure others can see that to, do you notice that, he always says "Winning" when and during an argument?  Well I red up heavily on this, and it would seem that, the mind set (script) of the Cluster B is all about winning.  For example, every time they get you to pay the bill, get off your seat to get them a drink in their head they are winning.  I will try and explain this as best as I can.  The Cluster B was never taught about giving and taking, they have seen from an early age that taking is the easiest way of getting their needs fulfilled.  We as NONs do things out of love and compassion, whereas, the Cluster B does things as a means of winning.  Try and answer these questions:

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when they asked you to do something and you said no or I will later?

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when you asked them to help out, maybe go halves on a restaurant bill?


When we NONs say no, we are not following the script in their head, so what happens is this, they then feel a lack of control, anxiety heightens and they have a "Ill show you" mentality, this is when you the mask drops and the disordered individual appears.  To speak further on "The Game" The reason why a lot of us were blocked for no valid reason was because they needed to leave knowing they had won.  When we block them, they cry/rage and want us all over again, this is NOT out of love its solely on the fact that now they dont feel in control because they feel you won the game.  This all sounds so immature but it is the exact reason why these people play games such as push/pull it gives them a sense of control over the situation.  I once spoke to others on this forum about the SMIRK when we are finally discarded, I have come to the conclusion that, this SMIIRK is their I have one up on you face.  They can only use the SMIRK when they know that their is a replacement that has rescued them from their emotional crash landing of the end of a relationship, its their I always win face.  Although, this is more NPD/HPD rather than BPD a lot of these Cluster Bs are like a maze of co morbid traits.  

I have also learnt that BPD and HPD works in slightly different way, let me explain this further, your ex BPD has just got engaged or had a baby with your replacement, is this love? NO WAY! The BPD will do anything to avoid abandonment, that feeling of being alone because the trauma and in some cases PTSD is triggered by childhood memories.  They are only doing this because they need that soothing feeling that the person will be connected to her through marriage or a child, it is only a self soothing, coping method and just like all Cluster Bs its all about THEM not you!

The HPD would have a child or get married solely on the need for attention.  For example, how wow your having a baby congratulations guys, although the attention is aimed towards to baby or actual marriage the HPD still reaps the rewards.  This isnt about love, its about securing attention from Narcissist supply.  THE HPD would feel like their losing their partner, so a side from the testing of loyalty methods they will in fact force a baby on you because in their head the attention and validation from a baby that wont judge them is one of the most soothing feelings.  The child isnt about the male its about the self fulfillment of being able to attain admiration and attention in the form of pregnancy.    

This is why BPD/HPD may fake illness its the attention that they crave.  For example, your in a room full of people and someone starts talking to you, the Cluster B feels that in order to gain attention they must create a scene, so he/she may fake a panic attack, feeling dizzy, heart palpitations in order to focus the attention back on them "Whats wrong, are you ok"?  They may also threaten suicide as a means of making you stay ":)on't abandon me"

Another thing I have red up on is more HPD but im sure some guys on here can relate,  your ex may have said "I have so many stalkers", or "so and so just wont leave me alone"  What actually happens here is this, the Cluster B will try and make you jealous as a means of testing your loyalty towards them, but this goes even deeper, the Cluster B will text a male friend/ ex and they will proceed to text them asking for a favor, but whats happens is, she will use his reply's as a way of saying "I wish he would leave me alone" so in hindsight it looks like hes this obsessive stalker when in reality hes just asking her "why did you contact me"  This is why I personally feel that, in some cases we don't get closure because Cluster Bs like to see themselves as special, so when your texting them saying "Why did you call me"? shes probably saying " Hes so obsessed with me, he just cant leave me alone" they almost validate themselves when in reality you are only replying to their contact.

The last thing id like to share with you is this, when you call out a Cluster B and they run there's a few things going on on the BPD side of the spectrum its the feeling of abandonment which must be avoided at all costs, you are now the trigger to their trauma and they cant look because the pain is real very real!  Whee as when dealing with the HPD/NPD type the reason they run when we call them out is because, no one dares call them out and if you do you will damage their already false ego, but this is why some HPDS/NPDs come back because they respect you on an intellectual level, and the reason they run and cut us NONs off is because they arent used to people calling them out so their emotions get so mixed up because they arent use to this kind of rejection it sends them into chaos and in order to protect their already damaged ego they must discard us, because they are now dealing with someone they feel is now out of their league and the NPD/HPD cant have that, they must always be in the drivers seat in relationships.

I really hope this stuff has helped you guys, I can and will extend this if it makes you feel better


           

     

[jammo1989]

Hey guys, after being 7 months out, and after all the reading material and research I would like to talk about everything I have learned in regards to Cluster Bs, this is all my own material in the sense that I have not copied and pasted, this is everything that I have personally learned, and I really hope It helps all of you.

The first thing I red into when studying Cluster Bs was the initial behavior that may occur when they feel threatened, angered or upset, and this is what I came up with:

The Anti Social/Narc may lash out and attack you

The BPD  may focus their anger inwards by smashing up personal belongings/ self harming

The HPD may just slam the door and end up sleeping at some guys house  


These are all different styles of learnt behavior when faced with difficult situations, but in hindsight to all this all these reactions all carry the same end message/ goal and that is ATTENTION!

I have also red into what can only be described as "THE GAME"  have any of you guys heard of Charlie Sheen? he is a Narcissist and im sure others can see that to, do you notice that, he always says "Winning" when and during an argument?  Well I red up heavily on this, and it would seem that, the mind set (script) of the Cluster B is all about winning.  For example, every time they get you to pay the bill, get off your seat to get them a drink in their head they are winning.  I will try and explain this as best as I can.  The Cluster B was never taught about giving and taking, they have seen from an early age that taking is the easiest way of getting their needs fulfilled.  We as NONs do things out of love and compassion, whereas, the Cluster B does things as a means of winning.  Try and answer these questions:

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when they asked you to do something and you said no or I will later?

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when you asked them to help out, maybe go halves on a restaurant bill?


When we NONs say no, we are not following the script in their head, so what happens is this, they then feel a lack of control, anxiety heightens and they have a "Ill show you" mentality, this is when you the mask drops and the disordered individual appears.  To speak further on "The Game" The reason why a lot of us were blocked for no valid reason was because they needed to leave knowing they had won.  When we block them, they cry/rage and want us all over again, this is NOT out of love its solely on the fact that now they dont feel in control because they feel you won the game.  This all sounds so immature but it is the exact reason why these people play games such as push/pull it gives them a sense of control over the situation.  I once spoke to others on this forum about the SMIRK when we are finally discarded, I have come to the conclusion that, this SMIIRK is their I have one up on you face.  They can only use the SMIRK when they know that their is a replacement that has rescued them from their emotional crash landing of the end of a relationship, its their I always win face.  Although, this is more NPD/HPD rather than BPD a lot of these Cluster Bs are like a maze of co morbid traits.  

I have also learnt that BPD and HPD works in slightly different way, let me explain this further, your ex BPD has just got engaged or had a baby with your replacement, is this love? NO WAY! The BPD will do anything to avoid abandonment, that feeling of being alone because the trauma and in some cases PTSD is triggered by childhood memories.  They are only doing this because they need that soothing feeling that the person will be connected to her through marriage or a child, it is only a self soothing, coping method and just like all Cluster Bs its all about THEM not you!

The HPD would have a child or get married solely on the need for attention.  For example, how wow your having a baby congratulations guys, although the attention is aimed towards to baby or actual marriage the HPD still reaps the rewards.  This isnt about love, its about securing attention from Narcissist supply.  THE HPD would feel like their losing their partner, so a side from the testing of loyalty methods they will in fact force a baby on you because in their head the attention and validation from a baby that wont judge them is one of the most soothing feelings.  The child isnt about the male its about the self fulfillment of being able to attain admiration and attention in the form of pregnancy.    

This is why BPD/HPD may fake illness its the attention that they crave.  For example, your in a room full of people and someone starts talking to you, the Cluster B feels that in order to gain attention they must create a scene, so he/she may fake a panic attack, feeling dizzy, heart palpitations in order to focus the attention back on them "Whats wrong, are you ok"?  They may also threaten suicide as a means of making you stay ":)on't abandon me"

Another thing I have red up on is more HPD but im sure some guys on here can relate,  your ex may have said "I have so many stalkers", or "so and so just wont leave me alone"  What actually happens here is this, the Cluster B will try and make you jealous as a means of testing your loyalty towards them, but this goes even deeper, the Cluster B will text a male friend/ ex and they will proceed to text them asking for a favor, but whats happens is, she will use his reply's as a way of saying "I wish he would leave me alone" so in hindsight it looks like hes this obsessive stalker when in reality hes just asking her "why did you contact me"  This is why I personally feel that, in some cases we don't get closure because Cluster Bs like to see themselves as special, so when your texting them saying "Why did you call me"? shes probably saying " Hes so obsessed with me, he just cant leave me alone" they almost validate themselves when in reality you are only replying to their contact.

The last thing id like to share with you is this, when you call out a Cluster B and they run there's a few things going on on the BPD side of the spectrum its the feeling of abandonment which must be avoided at all costs, you are now the trigger to their trauma and they cant look because the pain is real very real!  Whee as when dealing with the HPD/NPD type the reason they run when we call them out is because, no one dares call them out and if you do you will damage their already false ego, but this is why some HPDS/NPDs come back because they respect you on an intellectual level, and the reason they run and cut us NONs off is because they arent used to people calling them out so their emotions get so mixed up because they arent use to this kind of rejection it sends them into chaos and in order to protect their already damaged ego they must discard us, because they are now dealing with someone they feel is now out of their league and the NPD/HPD cant have that, they must always be in the drivers seat in relationships.

I really hope this stuff has helped you guys, I can and will extend this if it makes you feel better


           

     

[ReluctantSurvivor]

Thanks for sharing Jammo.  I am going to have to re-read this over a few days to let it sink in.  Good info! 

[mitatsu]

it's a good read and the main thing is it helps YOU to understand 

[TheBPDSurvivor]

It's an interesting read Jammo. I'm very much interested to read more insights from you. Thanks for sharing this.

[Blimblam]

Jammo,

A lot of the behaviors you describe are not synonymous with cluster b but rather an upset hurt person.  At the core of the cluster bs is pain avoidance and hiding from themselves but that is not synonymous with cluster b either.  Why are you hiding behind cluster b's? You attract and garner attention then direct it at this concept you have created within yourself to point at and validate how horrible it is, why?

[Mutt]

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when they asked you to do something and you said no or I will later?

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when you asked them to help out, maybe go halves on a restaurant bill?

There are different reasons why a pwBPD will display disproportionate anger and it's not necessarily inherent with not fulfilling a request or going half on a restaurant bill.

I can't say that my ex partner with BPD traits displayed disproportionate anger if I didn't do as she asked or I was passive aggressive or paying half on a restaurant bill during courtship; we later shared our finances and weren't splitting bills.

What's the back story jammo1989 with one or both of these disproportionate anger exhibitions that may of been an experience that was personal to you?

[jammo1989]

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when they asked you to do something and you said no or I will later?

How many times has your ex Cluster B raged when you asked them to help out, maybe go halves on a restaurant bill?

There are different reasons why a pwBPD will display disproportionate anger and it's not necessarily inherent with not fulfilling a request or going half on a restaurant bill.

I can't say that my ex partner with BPD traits displayed disproportionate anger if I didn't do as she asked or I was passive aggressive or paying half on a restaurant bill during courtship; we later shared our finances and weren't splitting bills.

What's the back story jammo1989 with one or both of these disproportionate anger exhibitions that may of been an experience that was personal to you?

I was using the not paying bills as mere examples, but from my own personal perspective those behaviours were very much apparent.  For example, my ex was raised by a Narcassist mother (abusive, cold) her father who she never knew was never there since birth.  The guy that she thinks of as her father is also emotionally cold.  For example she will call him, do what ever she can to get his m attention but in the end he always let her down.  For example, "my dad said he can't wait to meet you, I'm so excited" then she later found out that he was never going to fulfil his promises in the first place.

So in hindsight to everything I experienced I believe that she was looking for that missing father figure to look after and protect her.  I used to pay for everything, and for the first year I did it because I loved her and her children.  I then got a job, so money to me meant more because I was actually working for it.  I began saying " if we get a take away can we go halves?" She would then say things like well in that case I'm not hungry! It's as if as soon as I started her to help pay for mutual support that's when she got triggered.  She would go food shopping for her and the kids (I didn't live with her) and when we got to the till she would joke with the cashier I have the worst BF he won't even pay for my shopping.  There were also times where she would ask me to buy her or the kids something and when I said no not really she would cause the biggest scene of drama in a public place then storm off (passive aggressive) and expect me to follow behind her for the rest of the day.  They don't want they expect, and she wasn't a gold digger because I offered to pay for her driving lessons and she kept saying no jammo1989, it feels weird asking for help because it's something I don't feel comfortable doing, obviously looking at me as her father basically saying, I dont trust you because your only going to let me down anyway.

[Mutt]

It sounds like she had a terrible childhood.  She was taking advantage of your good nature and trying to illicit an emotional response; emotionally blackmailing and passive agressitivity when it was time to pay for groceries. She could have communicated before putting you on the spot?

What did you learn?

Do you see yourself in the role of rescuer?

What are your boundaries with a similar circumstance today?

How do you cope when someone attempts to illicit an emotional response?

[jammo1989]

It sounds like she had a terrible childhood.  She was taking advantage of your good nature and trying to illicit an emotional response; emotionally blackmailing and passive agressitivity when it was time to pay for groceries. She could have communicated before putting you on the spot?

What did you learn?

Do you see yourself in the role of rescuer?

What are your boundaries with a similar circumstance today?

The way I looked at everything was after we broke up I said to myself dont get Kyled (Her still husband) He was her door mat even when I got together with her, he would do everything for her, he would even drive her to see me back when I didn't drive, she would lie and tell him she was going to her friends house.  Even though her husband and her had split so technically it was none of his business what she did, I began to quickly realize that the reason he couldn't let go and was obsessively texting her while she was with me was solely based on the fact she would lead him on then say"No Kyle I have a bf" and if she needed something from him she would bring the kids into the situation.  For example, the kids need this for school, he would then pay out extra child support and with that money she would spend it on me during the idealization stage.  One thing that I have learned and I think its am extremely important bit of information.  The male will do what ever it takes to look after and cater for his children, its a territorial type of behavior.  The Cluster B can use these strong emotions to manipulate the father by using his children to extort money or moral support.  My ex even told me once "If i didnt have kids with that man I would never talk to him again I hate him!" But when she talks to him she acts like hes her best friend even when I was going out with her.  One of the most disgusting behaviors I witnessed from her was when, Her husband brought her a £60 bottle of perfume off the kids for mothers day, she sprayed some on her wrist when I was with her  and was like "Errr I dont like that" and threw it behind her bed then text him saying, I hope you still have the receipt because I dont like it.  Is that Narcissistic?  My boundaries now are a lot more stronger than what they were, and to be honest I just love being single because while single im ME, I think straight and know whats going on, but when in a relationship I tend to lose myself and become the soft hearted care giver type.

Thank you for reading by the way Mutt              

[Mutt]

A person that's a caretaker has good qualities that function well in the workplace and socially, roles like nurses and police. It's relationships where you can become frustrated, depressed, burnt out and physically ill when you're a caretaker to someone that is highly dysfunctional.

You can see the dysfunction between your ex partner and her H and how it's "all for me".  I think you can see how everyone's role is central to your ex partners highly dysfunctional behaviors?

You have awareness.

How did it feel seeing her kids go through that?

Have you thought about being a dad?

I don't think the perfume was a pathological gesture. I think she was trying to impress you.

[jammo1989]

A person that's a caretaker has good qualities that function well in the workplace and socially, roles like nurses and police. It's relationships where you can become frustrated, depressed, burnt out and physically ill when you're a caretaker to someone that is highly dysfunctional.

You can see the dysfunction between your ex partner and her H and how it's "all for me".  I think you can see how everyone's role is central to your ex partners highly dysfunctional behaviors?

You have awareness.

How did it feel seeing her kids go through that?

Have you thought about being a dad?

I don't think the perfume was a pathological gesture. I think she was trying to impress you.

Mutt try and explain this one for me please, my ex used to tell me that her and her ex husband were having a day out with the kids and whether or not that was ok with me.  Her excuse was, I want the kids to feel like their parents get along, but she knew that her husband was obsessively begging for her back, so why give the children false hope?  She told her who she thinks is her father about this, and he said jammo1989 has a lot of patience with you I would have dumped you straight.  Another question I have for you, this 3rd pregnancy that was originally aimed at me, was this done as a desperate attempt to keep the attention on her or was it it solely used a means of keeping me at arms length? I honestly dont think shes had this child out of love for my replacement I strongly feel it was used as a means of entrapment, so in a way I pity this guy I really do. She would also try and cause drama as a means to focus the attention on her.  For example, her husband would Face Time her to talk to the kids, and my ex would say H... .cant talk to you now because shes playing with jammo1989, and then he would flip call her all the names under the son and her 6 year old would say daddy please stop shouting at mummy, but when you look at it, she was trying to cause drama to gain attention, while giving herself the role as the victim in the eyes of her son and me at the time, because I used to say K really needs to stop this hes making me angry now, see there yet again the savior complex comes out as a means to reassure her that hes just jealous and needs to get over you.

[Mutt]

It may be her false self? She is a mother and likely genuinely has love for her kids, is emotionally immature and has social impairments.

Her H was begging her back. There are two sides to a medallion. What's the back story on her H?

I'm sorry I don't know the story on her pregnancy. She's pregnant with your replacement and wanted to initially have a child with you? In the context of entrapment;always wear protection as to not get the women pregnant. The silver lining is that you didn't have a child with her. You can take a look at the legal board to see the chaos in court a person with an invisible mental illness causes.

You are a young man, perhaps ready to settle down at some point? Enjoy bachelorhood and it's also a good opportunity for you to work on yourself?

I think you have it mostly right with the dynamics with you, her H and your ex partner. BPD is also persecution complex, she's victim and wants rescue from you, while her H is persecutor. There's also another layer with parental alienation with his name calling directed to the children's mother. It is their unconditional love irregardless of dysfunctional behavior, animosity or drama triangles? They shouldn't be in the middle. He sounds emotionally attached to his ex wife. It takes two to tango. It takes one to end conflict.

[livednlearned]

Hi jammo,

I have to agree with BlimBlam, that a lot of what you describe sounds like an upset hurt person. There are different types of attachment styles (anxious-ambivalent, avoidant, secure, etc.) that are learned in families of origin, and then later applied to romantic relationships. Attachment style has a very pervasive influence on a person's relationships with others because it reflects general views about the rewards and dangers of relationships.

You could say that PDs are on the extreme spectrum in terms of attachment styles. But people who end up in PD relationships -- you, me, people on these boards -- do not typically have secure attachment styles. If the goal is to learn how to develop a secure attachment style, which is the basis for having a healthy, emotional and intimate relationship, you have to let go of what makes a person HPD or BPD or NPD or whatever PD, and start focusing on the gap between your attachment style and a secure one.

Trying to figure out what just happened to you by focusing on the behaviors of others is going to fizzle out. It just does. There is a whole other step past this point. The lessons to the right --> and the five stages of detachment are going to get your further along than trying to generalize human behavior.