Do I subconsciously know she had BPD?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all

I'm new to this forum - so a bit of background. 18 months back I started dating a woman I met through work. Quickly fell for her and her me. Lots of early 'I love you's' and talk of marriage - and plenty of evidence of a pattern of failed relationships, after 3-4 months, in her past. I'm a wary sort of guy who considers himself to be mentally tough, so played things coy regarding taking the relationship to the next stage (moving in etc). However, at the very point in time I truly believed in her and lowered my defenses, all hell broke loose: Distancing, triangulation, gaslighting, dissociation. A mind*%!* of epic proportions!   For the first time in my life I resorted to the internet to explain my confusion and stumbled across BPD. Basically, learning that none of this was my fault was the only thing that kept me from plunging into depression. I've subsequently come to the conclusion that many past girlfriends had BPD traits - but they didn't last long enough to hook me like this one!

My question is though, how can I be attracted to BPD females when in the initial stages they don't display these characteristics? I wasn't looking for crazy - but I got it anyway! 

[FannyB]

Hi all

I'm new to this forum - so a bit of background. 18 months back I started dating a woman I met through work. Quickly fell for her and her me. Lots of early 'I love you's' and talk of marriage - and plenty of evidence of a pattern of failed relationships, after 3-4 months, in her past. I'm a wary sort of guy who considers himself to be mentally tough, so played things coy regarding taking the relationship to the next stage (moving in etc). However, at the very point in time I truly believed in her and lowered my defenses, all hell broke loose: Distancing, triangulation, gaslighting, dissociation. A mind*%!* of epic proportions!   For the first time in my life I resorted to the internet to explain my confusion and stumbled across BPD. Basically, learning that none of this was my fault was the only thing that kept me from plunging into depression. I've subsequently come to the conclusion that many past girlfriends had BPD traits - but they didn't last long enough to hook me like this one!

My question is though, how can I be attracted to BPD females when in the initial stages they don't display these characteristics? I wasn't looking for crazy - but I got it anyway! 

[dobie]

My T told  me subconsciouly due to my own issues I let this woman win me knowing in the end it would end in disaster .

Healthy people don't date unhealthy people hard fact 

The good thing is these types of r/s can allow us to heal as well 

[Blimblam]

pwBPD are experts at attaching and it triggers something in people that feel misunderstood because the pwBPD is soo validating and accepting of just about anything on our behalf and reacts exactly how we would want someone to in our fantasies.  Basically filling out own inner void and allowing us to shine and somehow feel complete which secures the pwBPDs attachment.  On an unconcious level we see red flags but we are riding so high on the romance we ignore the red flags and continue because they "complete," us.

[FannyB]

Blimblam

Totally agree that that was how she made me feel during the honeymoon period. However the initial attraction, aside from her good looks, was a lot to do with how together she seemed. I actually thought that I would be too flaky for her in that I have my own attachment issues! She was a high achiever who appeared almost too perfect in every way. Still, you live and learn as they say. 

[downwhim]

Mine too charmed me into believing I was his everything. Complimented me, came on fast, wanted me to get off the dating site so just we could be together, etc... He made himself comfortable in my world and we were together all of the time.  's were up many times but I too chose to ignore them while I lived in my fantasy.

Idealization phase is bliss. Devaluation is the worst pain I have ever experienced.

[Maternus]

Idealization phase is bliss. Devaluation is the worst pain I have ever experienced.

But it's the idealization that makes the devaluation so painful. So I think the "good" sides of this disorder are the most harmful.

[FannyB]

Devaluation is truly terrible as we can't rationalize what we're dealing with at the time. I have experienced some significant bereavements which were considerably less painful to me. Fortunately my newly enlightened state stops me feeling guilty about that.

[Blimblam]

Fany

When did your RS end?   

[FannyB]

First time 6 months ago, second time 3. The re-cycle was good for me though as breaking up first time around was like stopping dead at 90mph. second time gave me some braking distance which I used to good effect. 

[raisins3142]

My T told  me subconsciouly due to my own issues I let this woman win me knowing in the end it would end in disaster .

Healthy people don't date unhealthy people hard fact  

The good thing is these types of r/s can allow us to heal as well  

Your T told you what was going on in your subconscious?  That is such an irresponsible statement on the T's part.  Gaining power by pretending to know what you can't know.  Modern day psychology actually seems like sorcery.

There is no way a healthy person can be fooled by an unhealthy person, realize the lack of health, work on things for a bit, and then disengage?  Come on now.

I just recoil at these absolutist statements.

Lastly, there is no person without issues in some area.  So, no matter who on this planet attached to a BPD, you could then do a post hoc analysis to explain in hindsight how they were not healthy and that is why they were with a BPD for a time. It is non-falsifiable, which is not a strength of an argument.

[dobie]

My T told  me subconsciouly due to my own issues I let this woman win me knowing in the end it would end in disaster .

Healthy people don't date unhealthy people hard fact  

The good thing is these types of r/s can allow us to heal as well  

Your T told you what was going on in your subconscious?  That is such an irresponsible statement on the T's part.  Gaining power by pretending to know what you can't know.  Modern day psychology actually seems like sorcery.

There is no way a healthy person can be fooled by an unhealthy person, realize the lack of health, work on things for a bit, and then disengage?  Come on now.

I just recoil at these absolutist statements.

Lastly, there is no person without issues in some area.  So, no matter who on this planet attached to a BPD, you could then do a post hoc analysis to explain in hindsight how they were not healthy and that is why they were with a BPD for a time. It is non-falsifiable, which is not a strength of an argument.

I don't know raisans?  I knew what a ruthless selfish b****h she could be but ignored it . so yes on a subconscious level I was aware of  her nature even if I conciousley ignored it

Just like I could sense the BU coming her new friends being the triangulation she needed to leave me but I just brushed it out of my mind  

Yes we all have some nuerorsis Im sure but there are some with pd or other more severe things that attract a certain type

I mean would a clingy BPD do well with someone mature and avoident ?

[FannyB]

My initial question asked why was I attracted to a borderline - not why I stayed with her after her behaviour deteriorated. As I  said before - there were no telltale signs initially. I did not meet her on line and she was not in a relationship. There were no healed scars on her arms and she was popular in work and good at her job.  I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual. So how, pray, do I avoid finding another one in the future? 

[Trog]

As Dobie says, healthy people don't date people with BPD or anyone that is hurtful or hurting them. They call a dk a dk and that's that.

Some years ago during an old recycle I read some messages within my ex email and facebook that were very illuminating from someone she was trying to triangulate me with. It was a FB message from a guy she had been dating who told her he did not want to see her anymore, that he had never met anyone who managed to make him feel so bad about himself. Considering they had only been on a handful of dates this guy was pretty astute and simply kicked her to the curb.

I knew she had issues, I thought I could maintain her anyway. HA! Why on earth would anyone sign up to that! thats my work.

[Invictus01]

My initial question asked why was I attracted to a borderline - not why I stayed with her after her behaviour deteriorated. As I  said before - there were no telltale signs initially. I did not meet her on line and she was not in a relationship. There were no healed scars on her arms and she was popular in work and good at her job.  I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual. So how, pray, do I avoid finding another one in the future? 

If you are dealing with a high functioning BPD, I have no idea how you can tell she is one until she is triggered and leaves you, especially if you never dealt with one before and have no idea what you are looking at. There is absolutely no chance in hell I would get involved with a low functioning BPD, I just have no interest whatsoever in these type of relationships or this type of women for that matter. What attracted me to my ex wasn't even love bombing or anything like that. If you forget the BPD part, she actually has plenty very good qualities about her... .which don't matter since they are ruined by BPD. So, to answer your question - I think going forward you just need to take it easy, learn about her and see if she has something about her that might remind you of your previous BPD experience... .and walk away if there are too many similarities... .

[FannyB]

Thank you Invictus for your insight. I am confident I could detect BPD fairly early in a relationship now that I've been through the emotional 'wringer'. However. all the psycho babble suggests that we are at fault for being attracted to these types in the first place. Surely, as you state, this only applies to low-functioning borderlines whose issues are more readily on display? In instances like this I would assume that the non partner is only looking for crazy sex rather than a LTR. 

[Invictus01]

Thank you Invictus for your insight. I am confident I could detect BPD fairly early in a relationship now that I've been through the emotional 'wringer'. However. all the psycho babble suggests that we are at fault for being attracted to these types in the first place. Surely, as you state, this only applies to low-functioning borderlines whose issues are more readily on display? In instances like this I would assume that the non partner is only looking for crazy sex rather than a LTR. 

That baffles me too... .I mean, I was attracted to a good looking, sharp, well educated, fun, successful for her age woman. What else should be attracted to? There was never verbal abuse or physical abuse. Granted, knowing what I know now, there were all sorts of red BPD flags but I didn't know what I was dealing with at the time and those red flags don't add up to anything unless you can see the big picture. Anyway, I am not saying that I'm perfect, but to tell me that me being attracted to the woman I described above makes me somehow unhealthy too... .I don't get it.

[dobie]

OK I can only go by my red   and the fact my T was referring to me but here you go

I knew her through an aquaitiance she got said acquaintance (her bf) to invite me to her bday as she fancied me  

She hunted me down via Facebook even though I had a gf  

She showed little to no empathy for my gf while she was my "bit on the side "  

Yes I was a dick for even cheating I'm not proud of it  

She had zero friends she had fallen out with all of them   or like her best gf lived abroad

She admitted she had not fancied her partner three weeks into a three year r/s but stayed with him because she wanted a nice guy

She started moaning and complaining from day one (high maintiance )


So from day one she was selfish , manipulative and had zero empathy as well as a moan

But stupid boy here was blinded by her beauty , her youth she was just 23 I was 31 and her smarts as well as her infatuation . I think I tried to dump her twice but she kept coming back telling mW how she felt we "were meant to be"

From day one the arguing and fighting started from her moaning and winging (part of what my T said attracted me to her she allowed me to rage )

[Maternus]

My initial question asked why was I attracted to a borderline - not why I stayed with her after her behaviour deteriorated. As I  said before - there were no telltale signs initially. I did not meet her on line and she was not in a relationship. There were no healed scars on her arms and she was popular in work and good at her job.  I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual. So how, pray, do I avoid finding another one in the future? 

Did your relationship evolve fast? Did she put you on a pedestal? Did she say "I love you" very soon in the r/s? Was she "too good to be true"? Did it feel like love on first sight? Did she call you her "soul mate" very early in the r/s? And the most important question: Do you think, that's a healthy way to start a relationship? 

[FannyB]

Did your relationship evolve fast? Did she put you on a pedestal? Did she say "I love you" very soon in the r/s? Was she "too good to be true"? Did it feel like love on first sight? Did she call you her "soul mate" very early in the r/s? And the most important question: Do you think, that's a healthy way to start a relationship? 



Maternus: 6 'yes's' and 1 'no'!  :'(

I guess I was torn between being sensibly wary and not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth! I had 6 months of this 'perfect' behaviour and was pretty great to her too. At that stage I really thought I had struck it lucky. She'd had a 12 year marriage and was mid 40's.  When she started acting out I researched the menopause on the 'Net as the personality change was so dramatic! It was only when she said that she felt fine that I began digging deeper. I was in love with her and wasn't going to bail at the first sign of trouble. I guess we're all the same in that respect... .

][/ftp]

[Fr4nz]

My initial question asked why was I attracted to a borderline - not why I stayed with her after her behaviour deteriorated. As I  said before - there were no telltale signs initially. I did not meet her on line and she was not in a relationship. There were no healed scars on her arms and she was popular in work and good at her job.  I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual. So how, pray, do I avoid finding another one in the future? 

If you are dealing with a high functioning BPD, I have no idea how you can tell she is one until she is triggered and leaves you, especially if you never dealt with one before and have no idea what you are looking at. There is absolutely no chance in hell I would get involved with a low functioning BPD, I just have no interest whatsoever in these type of relationships or this type of women for that matter. What attracted me to my ex wasn't even love bombing or anything like that. If you forget the BPD part, she actually has plenty very good qualities about her... .which don't matter since they are ruined by BPD. So, to answer your question - I think going forward you just need to take it easy, learn about her and see if she has something about her that might remind you of your previous BPD experience... .and walk away if there are too many similarities... .

Invictus, I fully agree with your words about relationships with high-functioning borderlines.

[hergestridge]

My exwife was 16 when we met (I was 21). It took me some time to realize it was something more than teen angst.

I don't dump people when they turn out to have problems, or even when it turns out that they mean trouble to myself.

The BPD-type people I have hooked up with in my life have a history of having been abandoned by people who run for the hills when they understand that something isn't quite right.

It's not that we are BPD magnets. They try to attach to anyone, but we're the only ones stupid enough to stay. That's what I think.

Our BPD partners know that too, and they hate us for it. By being the only ones who could put up with them we become their last choice, the bottom of the barrell. As good as it gets.

[FannyB]

My conclusion to all this is that I'm almost certainly a victim of my own superficiality. I like pretty women who are probably out of my league. The only ones that reciprocate that attraction are borderline disordered ones. Hence I end up with a disproportionate amount of disordered ones in my life!   Despite all this, I am easily resisting the temptation to go online and hook me another one! 

[raisins3142]

My initial question asked why was I attracted to a borderline - not why I stayed with her after her behaviour deteriorated. As I  said before - there were no telltale signs initially. I did not meet her on line and she was not in a relationship. There were no healed scars on her arms and she was popular in work and good at her job.  I can accept that the psychiatric community might opine that low self-esteem might have prompted me to stay (when really I was just bloody confused!) but I did not purposely seek out a disordered individual. So how, pray, do I avoid finding another one in the future? 

If you are dealing with a high functioning BPD, I have no idea how you can tell she is one until she is triggered and leaves you, especially if you never dealt with one before and have no idea what you are looking at. There is absolutely no chance in hell I would get involved with a low functioning BPD, I just have no interest whatsoever in these type of relationships or this type of women for that matter. What attracted me to my ex wasn't even love bombing or anything like that. If you forget the BPD part, she actually has plenty very good qualities about her... .which don't matter since they are ruined by BPD. So, to answer your question - I think going forward you just need to take it easy, learn about her and see if she has something about her that might remind you of your previous BPD experience... .and walk away if there are too many similarities... .

There is a tendency among some to generalize about NONs and assume all of us are rather similar to the NON that stayed with their partner for several decades through blatant infidelity and abuse.

[apollotech]

"There is no way a healthy person can be fooled by an unhealthy person, realize the lack of health, work on things for a bit, and then disengage?  Come on now."

I am with raisians and Invictus, the idea that because someone simply dated a pwBPD makes the person unhealthy ignores a lot of facts about why we get into relationships with anyone, healthy or not. Healthy people don't enter disastrous relationships that they know are disastrous before they enter them, yet healthy people get caught in disastrous relationships just like unhealthy people do. You only find out that the relationship is not healthy once you're in it. And even with that knowledge you might stay for a bit to see if it'll right itself.

To answer the topic question, with a high functioning BPD, the only upfront red flag might be the speed at which the relationship is progressing. Here is the problem with said flag, you still won't know if said behavior is permanent or temporary without spending some time there. The only way to protect yourself going in is not to invest yourself fully in the relationship in the early stages; that's healthy.

[Invictus01]

"There is no way a healthy person can be fooled by an unhealthy person, realize the lack of health, work on things for a bit, and then disengage?  Come on now."

I am with raisians and Invictus, the idea that because someone simply dated a pwBPD makes the person unhealthy ignores a lot of facts about why we get into relationships with anyone, healthy or not. Healthy people don't enter disastrous relationships that they know are disastrous before they enter them, yet healthy people get caught in disastrous relationships just like unhealthy people do. You only find out that the relationship is not healthy once you're in it. And even with that knowledge you might stay for a bit to see if it'll right itself.

To answer the topic question, with a high functioning BPD, the only upfront red flag might be the speed at which the relationship is progressing. Here is the problem with said flag, you still won't know if said behavior is permanent or temporary without spending some time there. The only way to protect yourself going in is not to invest yourself fully in the relationship in the early stages; that's healthy.

Yeah, somehow I don't see any sane person having a conversation like this 2-3 months into seeing somebody, no matter how strong and healthy emotionally that person is - "Sorry, I don't think we should see each other anymore. Something is off and I am not sure what it is. We seem to be into each other a little bit too much. We have way too much in common. We talk to each other too much. We enjoy each other's company too much. We have too much chemistry. This isn't healthy in a normal relationship. I don't want all this. Have you by any chance been to a psychologist for a borderline personality disorder evaluation?"

The other person - "I must have been seeing a nut job for the last a couple of months"

[FannyB]

My ex's ex-husband had at least 2 years of  being placed on a pedestal before significant cracks emerged (they were married after 18 months).  What chance did he have of smelling a rat?  Think he may have had narcissistic traits though which probably explains why he lasted so long compared to all the other guys that followed.

[Maternus]

Yeah, somehow I don't see any sane person having a conversation like this 2-3 months into seeing somebody, no matter how strong and healthy emotionally that person is - "Sorry, I don't think we should see each other anymore. Something is off and I am not sure what it is. We seem to be into each other a little bit too much. We have way too much in common. We talk to each other too much. We enjoy each other's company too much. We have too much chemistry. This isn't healthy in a normal relationship. I don't want all this. Have you by any chance been to a psychologist for a borderline personality disorder evaluation?"

I don't know, I'm not such a sane person. But eventually a sane person will see the red flags earlier than 3 months into the relationship. Maybe a sane person will have stronger boundaries while the pwBPD moves on too fast in the first days of the relationship. Maybe a person with a healthy sense of self will feel embarrassed to be put upon a pedestal and someone who knows and accepts his flaws is not vulnerable to idealisation.  

[Blimblam]

Yeah I resonate with not liking to think of myself in terms of healthy vs unhealthy it's just too black and white.  It seems like what happens is we get lost and when we try to make sense of things to get our bearings we cling to anything that will help make things understandable but it's like what if my green is your red and my blue is your yellow.  The map is not the terrain kind of thing. So it's super easy to get caught up in various forms of twisted thinking and projecting the illusion of safety onto concepts we might not have trully taken the energy to understanding outside of what we want it to mean to feel safe.  

[raisins3142]

"There is no way a healthy person can be fooled by an unhealthy person, realize the lack of health, work on things for a bit, and then disengage?  Come on now."

I am with raisians and Invictus, the idea that because someone simply dated a pwBPD makes the person unhealthy ignores a lot of facts about why we get into relationships with anyone, healthy or not. Healthy people don't enter disastrous relationships that they know are disastrous before they enter them, yet healthy people get caught in disastrous relationships just like unhealthy people do. You only find out that the relationship is not healthy once you're in it. And even with that knowledge you might stay for a bit to see if it'll right itself.

To answer the topic question, with a high functioning BPD, the only upfront red flag might be the speed at which the relationship is progressing. Here is the problem with said flag, you still won't know if said behavior is permanent or temporary without spending some time there. The only way to protect yourself going in is not to invest yourself fully in the relationship in the early stages; that's healthy.

Yeah, somehow I don't see any sane person having a conversation like this 2-3 months into seeing somebody, no matter how strong and healthy emotionally that person is - "Sorry, I don't think we should see each other anymore. Something is off and I am not sure what it is. We seem to be into each other a little bit too much. We have way too much in common. We talk to each other too much. We enjoy each other's company too much. We have too much chemistry. This isn't healthy in a normal relationship. I don't want all this. Have you by any chance been to a psychologist for a borderline personality disorder evaluation?"

The other person - "I must have been seeing a nut job for the last a couple of months"

Yep, the problem is that one day you might meet a truly healthy person that is super well suited for you.

The realization on both ends would be awesome!

Now, how does that differ from BPD mirroring/idealization?  I'm sure it does.  And I think I could spot it now, but prior to knowing about BPD, it would be tough.

I reject the subtext that healthy folks all have some jedi sense for each other, and because we don't have this then it indicates a lack of health.

Also, a subtext (or underlying assumption) is that because we are all here talking on the internet about a common problem and are hurt that it is unreasonable that someone was very taken with us and thought we were great.  As if "well if someone was gushing over you, then it should've been obvious they don't know their butt from their elbow!"  Having said that, I agree that there is a point where it is just too much, like mine telling me she loved me 3 weeks in.  But, it was sort of a ramp up, we were getting along so well I thought that saying that 3 weeks in seemed soon, but not unreasonably so at the time.

[raisins3142]

I don't know, I'm not such a sane person. But eventually a sane person will see the red flags earlier than 3 months into the relationship. Maybe a sane person will have stronger boundaries while the pwBPD moves on too fast in the first days of the relationship. Maybe a person with a healthy sense of self will feel embarrassed to be put upon a pedestal and someone who knows and accepts his flaws is not vulnerable to idealisation.  

3 months go by pretty quick given 2 busy schedules.  Also, everyone has some red flags that you will see in the first 3 months, as we are not perfect.  Most of us are talking with the benefit of hindsight and did not know that those red flags were actually in a pattern that spelled "BPD" once you zoomed out sufficiently.

Actually, I've had several relationships that lasted around 9 months.  Here's what typically happened: first 3 months or so was getting to know each other and excitement of a new relationship, middle 3 months we were more comfortable and either of us started to notice incompatibilities that the initial period covered over a bit, last 3 months was addressing incompatibilities and seeing how things changed over time.  End was the realization that we were not sufficiently compatible after giving it a go.  Maybe this means I'm unhealthy, but I've seen this pattern in others as well.