Cut from the same cloth

[Mutt]

I'm starting to view my sister differently and accept that she has tendencies like my father. My father has narcissistic traits and they have similarities.

In the context of my sister, I find that she has black and white thinking and has a hard time seeing both sides of the medallion with people; the good and the bad. It is a rare thing that she validates me, she has little good to say. For example my ex partner has BPD traits and my sister was split black for several years.

The r/s between my ex partner and my sister was very tense and often my ex partner would want me to rescue her and say that I didn't stick up for her with family members. This was a sore spot for many years and was hard to cope with.

Fast forward to 2 years after the r/s is over I find that my sister rescues my ex partner and devaluates and blames me. For example, we have shared custody and if there's a family event that is on my exe's time,  my sister says that I don't know how to talk to my ex with facilitating arrangements.  It's simply too difficult to make arrangements without some type of drama from my exe. I choose to adhere to the court appointment boundaries, rules of engagement for both parties.

I understand that some people are caregivers or codependent and it's learned survival skills from a dysfunctional family often there's a highly dysfunctional family member; BPD/NPD. My father has narcissistic traits, emotionally needy, black and white thinking, grandiose ideas, has difficulties displaying love, shows little empathy for others, gives little attention and is controlling.

My sister has similarities;  although she doesn't project a grandiose self,  she is controlling, devaluates, shows little empathy, has dichotomous thinking and does thinks out of guilt sometimes. Could she be narcissistic or simply co-dependent? Has anyone seen different degrees in traits with narcissism in family members?

I could be looking into something that is not there and I do see dysfunctional behavior. I thought perhaps I was in denial with my sister much like I was with father.

[Kwamina]

Hi Mutt,

Fast forward to 2 years after the r/s is over I find that my sister rescues my ex partner and devaluates and blames me. For example, we have shared custody and if there's a family event that is on my exe's time,  my sister says that I don't know how to talk to my ex with facilitating arrangements.  It's simply too difficult to make arrangements without some type of drama from my exe. I choose to adhere to the court appointment boundaries, rules of engagement for both parties.

I can see how frustrating it must be when your sister behaves this way, seemingly unable or unwilling to acknowledge how difficult it is to make arrangements with your ex. When you say your sister rescues your ex, do you mean that she rescues her in the conversations you have with your sister? Or also in other situations?

Before you described the relationship between your ex and sister as very tense. How would you describe their current relationship? Do they have contact with each other?

My father has narcissistic traits, emotionally needy, black and white thinking, grandiose ideas, has difficulties displaying love, shows little empathy for others, gives little attention and is controlling.

My sister has similarities;  although she doesn't project a grandiose self,  she is controlling, devaluates, shows little empathy, has dichotomous thinking and does thinks out of guilt sometimes. Could she be narcissistic or simply co-dependent? Has anyone seen different degrees in traits with narcissism in family members?

In what ways or in what situations would you say your sister is controlling? Is she controlling in the same way as your father?

[clljhns]

Hi Mutt,

Recently I spoke with a cousin who I have had very little contact with over the years (he is now close to 70, and I am 50). We spoke about our fathers, who are brothers. His father passed away several years ago, and explained that his father argued with every doctor in the hospital because he felt he knew more than them. We both discussed how our fathers were always right about everything. They are never wrong. So, in thinking about my siblings and how my father's traits may have been passed to them, I can certainly see a lot of similarities. My siblings are never wrong. They always have some excuse as to why they did or said what they did. All of them will split people black and white at the drop of a hat if they disagree with them. I have a similar story about my ex and my oldest sister and mom. My mom and sister hated my second husband and never had a kind word to say about him the entire 11 years we were married. Some of what they said was true, he was an alcoholic. When I finally filed for divorce, both of them called me and asked me to reconsider, because after all, he wasn't that bad. Huh? I received several phone calls from my sister and mom begging me to reconsider the divorce. I did not waiver, but could not understand how they would suggest I stay with someone that they had denigrated the entire time we were married. I found out from my ex that my mom and he continued to talk for two years after we divorced. She never gave him the time of day when we were married, but all of a sudden they are best buddies. I of course did not know this until he told me two years ago, after we had been divorced eight years. Talk about crazy! Really, what was that about?

My father I suspect is NPD and was also very controlling, cold, indifferent, and loved to talk about topics that were way over people's heads. I suspect he did this as it made him look very intelligent. His rule was law, and you were not allowed to have a different opinion from him. He demanded compliance, but he accomplished this through our mother, who ruled with an iron, and abusive fist. He was the king of his kingdom and we were his subjects.

So, yes. I see a lot of the same traits in my siblings that I saw in my parents.

[Suzn]

Codpendency has depth. It's very selfish behavior so it can look like narcissism. A codpendant needs you to be ok so that they can be ok. It IS all about them. They will manipulate you so that they can cope with behavior they aren't comfortable with.

Recovering codependant here. 

For example, we have shared custody and if there's a family event that is on my exe's time,  my sister says that I don't know how to talk to my ex with facilitating arrangements.

Because of course she can see clearly how you should handle this. She may be uncomfortable thinking you are sad that your child isn't there. Which would make her uncomfortable. Or, this could be seen as somewhat a grandiose sense, she knows better than you? 

It's simply too difficult to make arrangements without some type of drama from my exe. I choose to adhere to the court appointment boundaries, rules of engagement for both parties.

 

I'm assuming you've shared this with her? She's stepping into your business by trying to get you to go against how you feel about a court ordered agreement.

I know more than one narcissist personally, neither do anything over guilt. You know her best, does she seem dependent on how others feel? Does she ask "what's wrong?" to anyone often? It's been hard for me to see traits in close family when there are so many combinations of behaviors too.

[Mutt]

When you say your sister rescues your ex, do you mean that she rescues her in the conversations you have with your sister? Or also in other situations?

She rescues in conversation and I'm persecutor post-break up.

In my marriage my ex partner was persecutor. I would leave the house when my ex felt engulfed, she was hostile and the climate was very tense and my sister was kind enough to let me stay for a week to several weeks. It was a break mentally for me. I got to spend a lot of time at my sister's

How would you describe their current relationship? Do they have contact with each other?

A week or so after my ex left I got messages from some family members stating that my ex had removed them from Facebook and didn't say good-bye. I was split black and I'm assuming she split my family black as well, she removed all of my family members. She may not of wanted family members to see the r/s and photos with her boyfriend.

Is she controlling in the same way as your father?

No. My father will not compromise, it's his way or the highway. Whereas my sister can comprime, although it can take some persuasion. I find my sister gets into family member's business, I feel like its more so rescuing or trying to fix other people's issues.

All of them will split people black and white at the drop of a hat if they disagree with them.

My sister will project and not so much split black although she very seldom validates the good. She has validated that I am a good father and invalidated the hellish break-up and custody issues I went through the last couple of years, hence why I think she lacks of empathy.

A few months ago in a separate situation she was invalidating that I didn't know how to co-parent with my ex and I recall saying that I can't control someone else and she was insistent that I was instigating and perpetuating conflict with my ex and finally she said "Mutt you're so frustrating! I can't talk to you!".

It begs to question who is feeling frustrated and is inconsiderate with someone else's perspective and insists that what they are accused of is rightfully so?

I suspect he did this as it made him look very intelligent.

My father is pretentious as well.

Codpendency has depth. It's very selfish behavior so it can look like narcissism. A codpendant needs you to be ok so that they can be ok. It IS all about them.

It is about my sister and how she feels. I see behaviors; the depth is not the same as my father.

I am codependent and have a good sense of self and can identify and correct maladaptive behavior. For a time I was learning about BPD and my ex. I have processed enough and continue to learn about BPD and codependency.

Because of course she can see clearly how you should handle this.

Some time ago I told my sister that my ex is mentally ill and my sister said is she diagnosed? She's right that I can't diagnose and she gives me the impression that she's not very self aware and less so of other peoples compartments and behaviors. If my ex isn't diagnosed she can't be mentally ill.

She wasn't in my marriage and didn't see the behaviors behind closed doors. I don't say BPD and do say she's high-conflict and some people are like that which seems to be a little more accepted.

It's sad that my kids can't be at a family function on a weekend I don't have the kids. My ex made her choice, she said she was moving on and wanted to divorce because I don't make her happy.

My ex is incredibly difficult if there are no court appointed boundaries. Before I went to court and didn't have an order and tried to organize pick up times, she would dissociate and lie about the pick-up tines and keep changing the pick -up times. She has vey little empathy and doesn't understand that I have a work schedule.

I don't want to revisit this so I choose to stick to the court order regardless of what family members think,  it's less difficult with family members than dealing with my ex which can be a nightmare. I have explained it's high conflict and I get blamed for the conflict and I choose to not JADE which creates less tension and stress for me.

My family invalidates that I may be dealing with a mentally ill individual and I'm in this, they are not.

I know more than one narcissist personally, neither do anything over guilt. You know her best, does she seem dependent on how others feel? Does she ask "what's wrong?" to anyone often? It's been hard for me to see traits in close family when there are so many combinations of behaviors too.

Yes she does say what's wrong often and she does display guilt whereas I can't recall if my father has displayed guilt. I have noticed my sister is more so passive aggressive where she won't express her feelings and will do acts of kindness to try to smooth things.

Her argument I mentioned earlier where she said I'm frustrating; she'll usually not contact then resurface and say that I've been quiet and will invite and pay for supper. It's a pattern I have picked up on. I think she feels guilt, won't apologize or admit her wrong doing and then will display an act of kindness.

[clljhns]

Hi Mutt,

Some time ago I told my sister that my ex is mentally ill and my sister said is she diagnosed?

The hardest part of your sister's answer is that it is invalidating. True, you didn't have a diagnosis, but I think you were probably looking for support, not a diagnosis. I know in my own FOO, nothing I said was validated. Often, I was told that I lived in a fantasy world or was stupid for my thoughts.

I finally came to the conclusion that they needed to be the most important person in the room, and their opinions trumped all others, so why even try to have a conversation with them? I also think that they didn't know how to provide support and empathy, because it was never modeled for them in our FOO. Do you think that your sister is just incapable of providing support and empathy?

[Mutt]

The other day she said " Mutt you talk like a book!" I'll take it as a validating statement although she sounded frustrated with her tone.

My ex partner said a lot of mean and hurtful things.

A couple of years ago and around 6 weeks after the split I was knee deep in pain. I had discovered my ex was having an affair in our 7 1/2 year r/s and 4 year marriage, my ex was denying reasonable access to the kids, the other man had moved in,  she had cleaned out the bank and credit cards and left me with little.

Divorce hurts like hell and maybe more so when you're the rejectee.

I hadn't found bpdfamily and knew nothing of personality disorders, codependency and dysfunctional family dynamics.

I was looking for support from my sister.

She said "Get over it!"

That was painful. I never felt so alone and thought this is my support system?

That's my sister clljhns I don't think she can provide support or empathy.

[clljhns]

Mutt,

I was looking for support from my sister.

She said "Get over it!"

I am so sorry your sister wasn't able to give you the support and comfort you needed. I am glad you are here, among friends, in a wonderful support system! 

I had to create my own FOC (family of choice) since I couldn't depend on my FOO. Have you done the same, or at least have close friends that you can count on?

[Mutt]

Thank you clljhns

It was one of the hardest things to hear.

I do have some close friends in real life and I had been more so a hermit the last couple of years and went through depression. My friends have young families and are busy; I have friends here.

I started feeling better last October and getting through the last stretch of grieving. Every month since I feel better. Recently I have been networking and meeting new people in real life. I feel like I'm starting to move on, I can see a new life being replaced with an old one and I am hopeful.

I have heard of FOO and not FOC.

What is FOC?

[clljhns]

Mutt,

Glad you are feeling better. Depression can consume a person and make them feel stuck. I am glad that you are moving forward and have good friends (new and old) that you can count on.

FOC is Family of Choice. My own term, I think. I haven't seen it anywhere, but if it has been used before, then I apologize for not knowing who to give credit to. I just don't think that we should be defined by blood. I have found more caring, loving, and supportive people outside of my FOO, so they are my FOC. See? 

[Mutt]

I like it.

I think that my support was my ex in marriage and I had lost that and wasn't going to family for support.

I'm working on boundaries with my sister and I can tell she's taken notice and doesn't like it. Either way she doesn't like how I conduct my life and if I do something that she suggests it's not right. I cannot please these people.

The frustration is I can't do anything right with my dad or her.  It's futile and I choose to set boundaries and keep both out of my stuff or ask for support.

Developing a FOC makes sense  

[Turkish]

I like FOC. Being the only child of a single mother, I naturally developed one. Some of us have similar FOO (Abandoning or mentally I'll parents). We think of each other as brothers. I even have a little sister of choice who it turns out is dBPD. I obviously keep boundaries with her. Being adopted, I get, but I don't get the blood ties. I think sometimes it's used in FOG to keep people in a one-down position as if they are bound by some metaphysical law to retain sometimes toxic relationships.

[Mutt]

I'm adopted too. I understand blood.

Sometimes I feel like I belong to neither.

The two closest people are my sister and my bio mom.

My sister can't empathize or be supportive, tries to get into my stuff and invalidates. She can be helpful when I need help. She was a lot if help when I was going through my ex partners engulfment phase and offered for me to stat so I'd take it. My ex partner split her black years ago and at that time it was a good opportunity to reconnect with her and her family. I didn't have to stat at hotels and spent time with family. She is good with my kids and I do want my kids to have a bond with hers. They all play and get along well.

My father would split certain family members black when I was young and some cousins, uncles and aunts I had not seen for a long time until adolescence. I don't want the sane for my kids if it's my choice. I detested how my ex would often accuse my family of not liking her. For a period, I was isolated from them because I didn't want to put up with the fights. Sometimes the fights were for many days.

I became more so accustomed to her family, I did like them and my ex partner was the closest person as well. I'm minimal contact with the ex and view her family and things differently now. I see the dysfunction, the sneaking around with helping my ex with the affair partner and their rescuing and lack of support with my ex step-daughter.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the enablement and failing to see that there are two sides to the story and believing that an adolescent girl is "all bad".

My bio mom shows empathy, compassion and tries to get into my stuff.

My step mom is sympathetic, shows empathy and often speaks about her own stuff and complains a lot about my dad.

My dad and I have a r/s that's difficult and he may recount things differently. I seldom talk to him because he's always trying to rush me off of the phone. He's retired, lives in a somewhat remote area with my step mom and he complains about her   Life's too busy to talk? I used to look at the timer on my cordless and cellphone and the average call is 2 minutes and at best 8.

I gave up trying to call him.

FOC sounds like an attractive proposition. It's not that I want to go NC with family and I have set boundaries with my sister and my bio mom. My step mom and dad live across the country with very little contact.