mediation

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well ex walked out of court ordered  mediation last October. I've asked him 6 times since, has refused. I filed a motion last week asking the judge to order it again. Just got the objection from his lawyer. "Ex believes that on his experience with rarsweet, mediation will not resolve anything, only give raesweet a venue to air her grievances with him". That's the objection. Final hearing got moved to to July, was previously scheduled for September.

[rarsweet]

Well ex walked out of court ordered  mediation last October. I've asked him 6 times since, has refused. I filed a motion last week asking the judge to order it again. Just got the objection from his lawyer. "Ex believes that on his experience with rarsweet, mediation will not resolve anything, only give raesweet a venue to air her grievances with him". That's the objection. Final hearing got moved to to July, was previously scheduled for September.

[livednlearned]

It's a good idea to make sure that your lawyer does not allow any continuances, under any circumstance. Otherwise this will stretch into years. That's not necessarily a bad thing if you are find with the status quo, although understandably you may want things to be more legally binding.

There is a lot of theater involved in the early stages. Your ex's L is just following orders, best to ignore and move forward, and prepare for the hearing.

[ForeverDad]

You can't force mediation.  Yes, the court wants you to make a sincere try but it take two reaching agreement for mediation to succeed.  If he refuses, there's little you can do but to keep the court case moving along as quickly as possible.  Object to any continuance requests.  While the court typically grants continuances once or twice, eventually the court gets peeved at repeated delays and is more willing to deny a motion for continuance.

Strangely, many of our cases do reach a settlement, but almost always at the very end of the case, not in the early or middle stages.  There's just no sense of impending 'consequences' until the hearing or trial is looming.  If my court house would have had steps, I could state that my case settled "on the court house steps" as I entered on Trial Day.  And in my case my ex had a favorable temporary order and so she tried to delay equitable resolution as much as possible.

[UndauntedDad]

Does anyone have stories they can share where mediation worked out, and court was avoided? 

My uBPDw seems very high functioning, and in a serious discussion recently I brought up the possibility of divorce, if things don't improve. Her BPD traits have waned recently but I know we need to separate for my long term mental health and the health of my son, 7.  Surprisingly, she said she'd rather use mediation or "work it out ourselves" instead of going to court, and nominally agreed to 50% time/custody, which sounds way better than the stories I read in the Splitting book.  Yet, I also know that she does not believe we will actually divorce, so her abandonment fears may not be really triggered yet.

I need to finish my prepping for a high conflict divorce before I tell her we are actually splitting... .but can anyone give me some hope that maybe it won't be as bad as all that?

[ForeverDad]

One clue that raises the risk of false/twisted allegations as High Conflict is whether your spouse has ever contemplated or threatened making allegations.  If your spouse has threatened to disappear, limit your contact with the children, make allegations of DV, child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment, then get confidential legal advice, begin documentation of the poor behaviors and figure out empowering strategies well beforehand.  Court generally doesn't care to figure out what are lies and what are truths, so don't expect court to be concerned that you end up consumed by playing a defensive strategy for self-protection rather than focusing on the supposed purpose of the court divorce process looking out for the children's best interests.

[livednlearned]

Some things I've noticed over the years and from reading:

It does not seem like most of the cases here involve BPD sufferers who are in treatment. I imagine that someone who has even partial DBT skills or who had agreed to treatment would be easier to work with in mediation.

If you have a highly skilled mediator who is familiar with personality disorders, that probably increases the chance that mediation will work for you.

If your ex hires an attorney who is aggressive, or if your attorney is aggressive, that will decrease the odds you'll settle in mediation.

If your ex is a high-conflict personality (HCP) who recruits negative advocates and zeroes in on you as a target of blame, mediation is iffy.

If you have important leverage, mediation may work out.

Related to leverage, if your ex has a record that she does not want brought up in court, that can help motivate her to settle out of court.

If you have experience or skill at negotiating, and have read widely about BPD, that will work in your favor.

If your ex tends to have more waif/hermit tendencies, that can (theoretically) be to your advantage, but not enough to count on.

This is completely anecdotal... .I do think that BPD sufferers who experienced sexual/child abuse in their childhood are less likely to back away from what they think is best for the child. So if both parties aren't on the same page in mediation, then court is almost a certainty.

UndauntedDad, who does most of the parenting now as it stands? If you are the primary parent, there is a chance that even if you get 50/50, she will begin to slip back into old patterns where your son spends more time with you.

And last: If you have a reasonably successful experience with mediation, there is a good chance you will find yourself in court to enforce parts of the agreement. At least that has been my experience. That's what makes these cases high-conflict.

For that reason, try as much as you can to be very specific and detailed in the order, and include consequences where you can. The consequences will help ensure that the judge will rule favorably in the event you end up back in court. Otherwise, judges tend to give two or three chances to the non-complying spouse, and that can get expensive and drag out the conflict.

[UndauntedDad]

If you have a highly skilled mediator who is familiar with personality disorders, that probably increases the chance that mediation will work for you.

If your ex hires an attorney who is aggressive, or if your attorney is aggressive, that will decrease the odds you'll settle in mediation.

If your ex is a high-conflict personality (HCP) who recruits negative advocates and zeroes in on you as a target of blame, mediation is iffy.

If you have important leverage, mediation may work out.

Related to leverage, if your ex has a record that she does not want brought up in court, that can help motivate her to settle out of court.

... .

UndauntedDad, who does most of the parenting now as it stands? If you are the primary parent, there is a chance that even if you get 50/50, she will begin to slip back into old patterns where your son spends more time with you.

Thanks Livednlearned. Right now I do much of the parenting but it's shared, my wife has taken more on as her functioning has improved over the years. She cooks daily and can handle my business trips, though not without stress. When my S8 was 0-3, I did nearly everything except nurse him, he was colicky but I got up for every night shift during my full time job etc.  I had severe co-dependent behaviors for years that I'm now trying to change, but I'm still a very involved dad.  I generally trust my wife with my son, she really keeps her behavior in check with him, and I'm the primary/sole target.  Also, I don't want to go for more than 50/50, because my wife promised me that if I did, it would trigger a terrible court battle and suicide attempts if she lost.

Which I guess makes this mediation seem kind of like a life-or-death matter... .

rarsweet, did you achieve anything useful in mediation, or was it just a time-wasting delay?

(wishing you the best for July hearing, let us know how it goes!)

[ForeverDad]

It does not seem like most of the cases here involve BPD sufferers who are in treatment. I imagine that someone who has even partial DBT skills or who had agreed to treatment would be easier to work with in mediation.

I agree... . if the treatment and therapy is not just done for posturing.

This is completely anecdotal... .I do think that BPD sufferers who experienced sexual/child abuse in their childhood are less likely to back away from what they think is best for the child. So if both parties aren't on the same page in mediation, then court is almost a certainty.

My conclusion as well.

How to get the most out of early mediation even though likely to fail (unless you give in to whatever demands):

• Make a sincere effort in mediation, you want to be able to report to the court that you sincerely tried.  (Some states have mediation set up as a Black Box, all the court is told is whether it worked or not, nothing more.)



• Listen to stbEx's claims and allegations.  It will give you an idea of the strategy you'll likely face.  Knowing her strategy helps you to figure out where you have Leverage.  Also it will let you know what stbEx sees as important.

[ogopogodude]

Hmmmm, ... . About this leverage thing, ... . What exactly constitutes "leverage"... .?  As everybody knows here I am a videotape-a-holic as I do not tolerate any level of abuse be it of verbal nor physical nature.

I pulled an excerpt from Livenlearnd's post:  "If you have important leverage, mediation may work out.

Related to leverage, if your ex has a record that she does not want brought up in court, that can help motivate her to settle out of court."

But my L said that she cannot use things in a blackmail or extortion type of manner. This is just the way it is, ... . as she said she loves her law licence just where it is, ... . hanging on the wall nicely.  

What about the concept of having video and audio evidence that can PROVE that my ex is/was/will be a LOUSY parent in terms of proper upbringing of children as well as being able to show that my ex is the ANTI-THESIS of a peaceful and safe (this is the KEY word here) environment for children... .?  My ex just got a DUI  in the last three weeks and she is going to be labelled a criminal as drinking and driving is illegal in Canada. This is stuff that my ex does NOT exposed in  court proceedings during our divorce. This along with child abuse videos that I have is/would be nails in my ex's coffin lid by any judge.  

I have leverage coming out of my ying-yang... . All I have to do (theroretically, ... . but I would never do this) is to post this s**t on youtube for "the court of mass media attention", ... . which is quite a court venue indeed.

Public humiliation is quite a deterrent for awful behaviour.  

I would LOVE court-ordered mediation with results being forwarded to the divorce judge, ... . so the judge could see the non-sensible-ness of my ex and her just as BPD-like Lawyer.

[rarsweet]

He walked out 33 minutes into mediation. We had only gone over basically the purpose if meditation. The mediator asked him what his suggestion for custody was. At that time he said he wanted daughter with him and he didn't want to put anything in writing because we are both adults. I mean he didn't even want to have a parenting schedule. The mediator told him the judge wouldn't go for that. He got mad, slammed his hands down and walked out. We never got further than that.

[ogopogodude]

He walked out 33 minutes into mediation. We had only gone over basically the purpose if meditation. The mediator asked him what his suggestion for custody was. At that time he said he wanted daughter with him and he didn't want to put anything in writing because we are both adults. I mean he didn't even want to have a parenting schedule. The mediator told him the judge wouldn't go for that. He got mad, slammed his hands down and walked out. We never got further than that.

This story is exactly why I am going to make sure that if there is a court ordered mediation that the session is to be video taped and the documented session being able to have the judge view the expected non-sense mediation visit, by me, my L, her L and her.  This will be a total waste of time as we here on these forums know quite well that mediation with a BPD, is like trying to teach a chimpanzee to solve a quadratic formula problem.

[livednlearned]

we here on these forums know quite well that mediation with a BPD, is like trying to teach a chimpanzee to solve a quadratic formula problem.

Mediation worked out for me and my ex. It didn't keep us out of court, but we settled in mediation.

[Nope]

He walked out 33 minutes into mediation. We had only gone over basically the purpose if meditation. The mediator asked him what his suggestion for custody was. At that time he said he wanted daughter with him and he didn't want to put anything in writing because we are both adults. I mean he didn't even want to have a parenting schedule. The mediator told him the judge wouldn't go for that. He got mad, slammed his hands down and walked out. We never got further than that.

It honestly sounds like you never will get further than that in mediation. The refusal to put anything in writing is a refusal to be held accountable. Your best bet is to push forward and get a court date. Be sure to bring a solid written plan to the table for the judge to look over and sign off on. It sounds like your ex is planning to simply not do anything. It's amazing how much a BPD can obstruct progress simply by refusing to be part of the problem solving process. More than likely an upcoming final court date for custody will be the only thing that gets a reaction out of him.

[rarsweet]

Yes I do believe mediation would go nowhere. It was strategy for me. I filed asking for the judge to order mediation again knowing ex would refuse. I wanted to keep it fresh in the judges mind that 8 months after our breakup and 7 months after he walked out of mediation he is still refusing. And in his proposed parenting plan(exes)  he did eventually file in February he has asked that in future disagreements we will go to a mediator before involving the court. I wanted to show the judge his actions not just what he puts on paper.

[ForeverDad]

At that time he said he wanted daughter with him and he didn't want to put anything in writing because we are both adults. I mean he didn't even want to have a parenting schedule.

There's his entitled strategy.  He wants the child and he doesn't want a schedule that would grant you parenting time.  "We are both adults" makes sense only if both parents are reasonable.  This is his excuse to get something vague in place so that later he can stonewall you.

I agree with the mediator, no judge would agree to no parenting schedule, especially in a contested divorce with risk of conflict.  I'd think the judge would just state there will always be a schedule but it's up to the parents to decide whether they agree to ignore it.

In some states mediation is a Black Box, with the court only hearing whether it succeeded or failed.  If that is similar in your state then it is harder to explain to the judge why ex seeking mediation first as the method for resolving future disputes isn't a solution since he's already sabotaging mediations.

However... . I recall my original order included that, so maybe "try mediation before court" is a standard practice though there are some situations (such as Contempt of Court motions, as I found out just weeks into my post-decree life) where that doesn't apply and you can go straight to court.

You need to get the best temp order possible.  If you already have one, then you need to seek the best final order possible.  I recall my custody evaluator's perceptive conclusion in the initial report.  "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... . Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... . If Shared Parenting is tried and fails then Father should have custody."

[rarsweet]

In this state the mediator isn't allowed to disclose what went on in mediation. She did however write "ex is not willing to participate in mediation" in her October mediation report. They are allowed to write a brief comment. That's enough in my opinion.

[ForeverDad]

Likely you will get another similar report.  That may be enough to give a nudge better than "joint custody", the default outcome nearly everywhere unless there is substantive child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  (It took me a few years post-decree, but I did become the Legal Guardian due to the continued obstruction and conflict.)  If the court won't assign you sole custody, try try to get Decision-Making or Tie-Breaker.  It is effectively the next-best thing.  Sure, he can still bring you to court over issues but at least he wouldn't be able to obstruct, you wouldn't be stuck doing nothing until mediation or court resolves it.

[rarsweet]

Well ex was saying he was living with his father, b.s. but I couldn't prove it. Heard today that his father was fired and evicted( boss was his landlord) for theft and taking time cards (father has 28 year old felony burglary for robbing a former boss). So he Is definitely not living there. what the heck.

[ForeverDad]

You are seeking your Parenting Plan to be recommended for the order so that you can reduce the likelihood of returning to court over and over.  No one will expect it to resolve all future court action but a good order should keep it to a minimum.

Also, I noticed my custody evaluator did not create a report as lengthy as others I've read about here.  His initial report (before my ex caused the pediatrician to "withdraw services", etc) was only 11 pages.  The summary was just one page, the focus was so simple and clear.  Although both my lawyer and the evaluator initially warned me not to expect much, it was very favorable.

You need to get the best temp order possible.  If you already have one, then you need to seek the best final order possible.  I recall my custody evaluator's perceptive conclusion in the initial report.  "... . Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... . Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... . If Shared Parenting is tried and fails then Father should have custody."

[rarsweet]

Well the judge granted my motion despite ex and his L's objection. So have to schedule meditation within 10 days, crossing my fingers for a good outcome.