The ethics / morals of disclosure

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I'm 99% sure my exBPDgf knew she had BPD. There were many many references, not directly, but hints she gave and made, things she did. She even referred to 'Borderline' once in a discussion and said to me oh 'like that movie Girl, Interrupted'. I had never even heard of BPD until after we broke up and realised this is what she had.

I don't know if she is diagnosed or not - and I can see why someone wouldn't want to get a diagnosis - once you've been given the BPD label that impacts on a whole nother level, including discrimination in insurance policies.

What has bothered me and probably angered me the most is her non-disclosure to me.

I use the analogy of if you were in a relationship with someone that had herpes. Their disease is contagious, and in them sleeping with you there is a high potential for you to also contract that disease.

BPD is similar - there is a high potential for their illness to impact on you, on the relationship and on your own mental health. I would like to see anyone in a relationship with BPD who has not had their own mental health impacted in some way - depression, stress, anxiety, PTSD and so on. I think it would be impossible not to be impacted.

Certainly from my short two years with her, I ended up with severe anxiety, PTSD and was near suicidal coming out of the relationship.

What was the moral / ethical obligation that she had to disclose her issues to me? This is what angered me the most. That she knew she had problems but said nothing. Actually she didn't say nothing - she one day broke down and said she didn't know what was wrong with her, that she had suffered from depression since a teenager. I suggested she go see someone about her concerns, however she did nothing. On the other hand, she was very quick and pushy to get me to see a T when I started to be impacted.

I appreciate the illness has much stigma around it. I'm sure that must be horrible for her. I also have no doubt she was very fearful of what might happen if she did disclose to me - that I would just walk away. After I couldn't understand her awful behaviour in the relationship, I just walked away anyhow so the situation ended up in the same outcome.

My psych asked would it have made any difference if I had known? I said not to the outcome - in the end, I was not prepared to put up with her behaviour regardless of the reason for that. If I had known at least I could have understood more about the condition, and perhaps better ways for me to handle her and me but i doubt I would have stayed. I just would have better understood why she acted like she did, instead of being frustrated, confused and very very sad.

Whilst a very small part of me would love to disclose that to the new girlfriend (and I think most of us deep down would like to do that), of course I won't. I respect it is a medical condition and her issue to disclose. I respect there is much stigma around her illness and I still have some compassion for that. The new gf will in time discover it for herself, probably much in the same way that I was impacted.

What are other's view on the ethics / morals of them knowing they have the illness, but not disclosing. I realize of course that many are undiagnosed and therefore can't disclose. I was with her for two years and my part in it was failing to ask better/ more questions of her.

[parisian]

I'm 99% sure my exBPDgf knew she had BPD. There were many many references, not directly, but hints she gave and made, things she did. She even referred to 'Borderline' once in a discussion and said to me oh 'like that movie Girl, Interrupted'. I had never even heard of BPD until after we broke up and realised this is what she had.

I don't know if she is diagnosed or not - and I can see why someone wouldn't want to get a diagnosis - once you've been given the BPD label that impacts on a whole nother level, including discrimination in insurance policies.

What has bothered me and probably angered me the most is her non-disclosure to me.

I use the analogy of if you were in a relationship with someone that had herpes. Their disease is contagious, and in them sleeping with you there is a high potential for you to also contract that disease.

BPD is similar - there is a high potential for their illness to impact on you, on the relationship and on your own mental health. I would like to see anyone in a relationship with BPD who has not had their own mental health impacted in some way - depression, stress, anxiety, PTSD and so on. I think it would be impossible not to be impacted.

Certainly from my short two years with her, I ended up with severe anxiety, PTSD and was near suicidal coming out of the relationship.

What was the moral / ethical obligation that she had to disclose her issues to me? This is what angered me the most. That she knew she had problems but said nothing. Actually she didn't say nothing - she one day broke down and said she didn't know what was wrong with her, that she had suffered from depression since a teenager. I suggested she go see someone about her concerns, however she did nothing. On the other hand, she was very quick and pushy to get me to see a T when I started to be impacted.

I appreciate the illness has much stigma around it. I'm sure that must be horrible for her. I also have no doubt she was very fearful of what might happen if she did disclose to me - that I would just walk away. After I couldn't understand her awful behaviour in the relationship, I just walked away anyhow so the situation ended up in the same outcome.

My psych asked would it have made any difference if I had known? I said not to the outcome - in the end, I was not prepared to put up with her behaviour regardless of the reason for that. If I had known at least I could have understood more about the condition, and perhaps better ways for me to handle her and me but i doubt I would have stayed. I just would have better understood why she acted like she did, instead of being frustrated, confused and very very sad.

Whilst a very small part of me would love to disclose that to the new girlfriend (and I think most of us deep down would like to do that), of course I won't. I respect it is a medical condition and her issue to disclose. I respect there is much stigma around her illness and I still have some compassion for that. The new gf will in time discover it for herself, probably much in the same way that I was impacted.

What are other's view on the ethics / morals of them knowing they have the illness, but not disclosing. I realize of course that many are undiagnosed and therefore can't disclose. I was with her for two years and my part in it was failing to ask better/ more questions of her.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I'm 99% sure my exBPDgf knew she had BPD. There were many many references, not directly, but hints she gave and made, things she did. She even referred to 'Borderline' once in a discussion and said to me oh 'like that movie Girl, Interrupted'. I had never even heard of BPD until after we broke up and realised this is what she had.

I don't know if she is diagnosed or not - and I can see why someone wouldn't want to get a diagnosis - once you've been given the BPD label that impacts on a whole nother level, including discrimination in insurance policies.

What has bothered me and probably angered me the most is her non-disclosure to me.

I use the analogy of if you were in a relationship with someone that had herpes. Their disease is contagious, and in them sleeping with you there is a high potential for you to also contract that disease.

BPD is similar - there is a high potential for their illness to impact on you, on the relationship and on your own mental health. I would like to see anyone in a relationship with BPD who has not had their own mental health impacted in some way - depression, stress, anxiety, PTSD and so on. I think it would be impossible not to be impacted.

Certainly from my short two years with her, I ended up with severe anxiety, PTSD and was near suicidal coming out of the relationship.

What was the moral / ethical obligation that she had to disclose her issues to me? This is what angered me the most. That she knew she had problems but said nothing. Actually she didn't say nothing - she one day broke down and said she didn't know what was wrong with her, that she had suffered from depression since a teenager. I suggested she go see someone about her concerns, however she did nothing. On the other hand, she was very quick and pushy to get me to see a T when I started to be impacted.

I appreciate the illness has much stigma around it. I'm sure that must be horrible for her. I also have no doubt she was very fearful of what might happen if she did disclose to me - that I would just walk away. After I couldn't understand her awful behaviour in the relationship, I just walked away anyhow so the situation ended up in the same outcome.

My psych asked would it have made any difference if I had known? I said not to the outcome - in the end, I was not prepared to put up with her behaviour regardless of the reason for that. If I had known at least I could have understood more about the condition, and perhaps better ways for me to handle her and me but i doubt I would have stayed. I just would have better understood why she acted like she did, instead of being frustrated, confused and very very sad.

Whilst a very small part of me would love to disclose that to the new girlfriend (and I think most of us deep down would like to do that), of course I won't. I respect it is a medical condition and her issue to disclose. I respect there is much stigma around her illness and I still have some compassion for that. The new gf will in time discover it for herself, probably much in the same way that I was impacted.

What are other's view on the ethics / morals of them knowing they have the illness, but not disclosing. I realize of course that many are undiagnosed and therefore can't disclose. I was with her for two years and my part in it was failing to ask better/ more questions of her.

In my case, I am pretty sure my ex doesn't perceive that she has something wrong with her. And she IS a therapist. I am sure if I told her I thought she had this she would list all the criteria and then point out how she has none of them.

My ex also is narcissistic. I knew that about her early on (together 9.5 yrs), but it seemed a healthy esteem then. Over time, particularly in the last year of our relationship, she became smug, and I hate that.

As for asking questions, I couldn't ask questions about something I had no idea existed. I never heard of the word until 4 months after she ended it. Her behavior at the end was nothing I had ever seen from her. So I can't ask something I know nothing about. And frankly, in my case, there was no reason to think that she had some sort of emotional disorder.

Stress and my uBPDexgf's mother triggered her I've come to realize. And then it all got projected on to me that somehow I was her problem. Well, I haven't been there for a while and I'm guessing her problems haven't magically evaporated.

But you do raise an interesting question. For instance, what kind of ethics does my exgf have in not disclosing to whomever the man is that she's supposedly dating that she was in a lesbian relationship for 9.5 years. She KNOWS that, even if she doesn't recognize that she has an emotional disorder. And I know she wouldn't tell that even if she was asked point blank.

[parisian]

As for asking questions, I couldn't ask questions about something I had no idea existed. I never heard of the word until 4 months after she ended it. Her behavior at the end was nothing I had ever seen from her. So I can't ask something I know nothing about. And frankly, in my case, there was no reason to think that she had some sort of emotional disorder.

But you do raise an interesting question. For instance, what kind of ethics does my exgf have in not disclosing to whomever the man is that she's supposedly dating that she was in a lesbian relationship for 9.5 years. She KNOWS that, even if she doesn't recognize that she has an emotional disorder. And I know she wouldn't tell that even if she was asked point blank.

Shadow I have been following your posts for while and know some of your history from those.

I too had never even heard of Borderline until my ex mentioned it and then I did not give it another thought. I had no clue there were Personality Disorders. I just knew that her behaviour was extreme, abusive, odd, unusual, abnormal, made no sense.

I had the opportunity to ask questions about disclosures she made but didn't. Things like 'I don't really know who I am; I am emo with my emotions; I am overly emotional;', behaviours like when she would get upset and refuse to talk about relatively normal and simple things, like her performance assessement at work; like ask questions about why she would get angry or have no empathy or belittle me, or her being very upset about her mother. It was of course the 'walking on eggshells' - I didn't want to exacerbate things further so often left things unsaid. I will never do that again in any future relationship.

Their are lots of interesting perspectives about disclosure in relationships, especially in relation to previous partners / lovers and so on. My curiosity was about disclosure of medical conditions that may impact on you when in a relationship with that person. I see no distinction between a physical illness (such as herpes) nor a psychological one.

That she didn't disclose that to me is what angered me the most as it did impact on me, significantly. I have no doubt she knew that it would.

[Blimblam]

Parisian  I'm not sure it would have mattered.  Heck it might have made me want her more .  Just playing hard to get.  Most girls I've met with issues straight up say "I'm crazy," from the get go.  It's not like it's a profound secret tey tend to hide I think it is more i along the lines of we ignore the red flag because all the other signs point to this is it, then we get the idea in our head this is it, then we project whatever it is onto them .

[ShadowIntheNight]

As for asking questions, I couldn't ask questions about something I had no idea existed. I never heard of the word until 4 months after she ended it. Her behavior at the end was nothing I had ever seen from her. So I can't ask something I know nothing about. And frankly, in my case, there was no reason to think that she had some sort of emotional disorder.

But you do raise an interesting question. For instance, what kind of ethics does my exgf have in not disclosing to whomever the man is that she's supposedly dating that she was in a lesbian relationship for 9.5 years. She KNOWS that, even if she doesn't recognize that she has an emotional disorder. And I know she wouldn't tell that even if she was asked point blank.

Shadow I have been following your posts for while and know some of your history from those.

I too had never even heard of Borderline until my ex mentioned it and then I did not give it another thought. I had no clue there were Personality Disorders. I just knew that her behaviour was extreme, abusive, odd, unusual, abnormal, made no sense.

I had the opportunity to ask questions about disclosures she made but didn't. Things like 'I don't really know who I am; I am emo with my emotions; I am overly emotional;', behaviours like when she would get upset and refuse to talk about relatively normal and simple things, like her performance assessement at work; like ask questions about why she would get angry or have no empathy or belittle me, or her being very upset about her mother. It was of course the 'walking on eggshells' - I didn't want to exacerbate things further so often left things unsaid. I will never do that again in any future relationship.

Their are lots of interesting perspectives about disclosure in relationships, especially in relation to previous partners / lovers and so on. My curiosity was about disclosure of medical conditions that may impact on you when in a relationship with that person. I see no distinction between a physical illness (such as herpes) nor a psychological one.

That she didn't disclose that to me is what angered me the most as it did impact on me, significantly. I have no doubt she knew that it would.

One thing about my ex, I always told her how I was feeling about things until the last 6 months of our relationship. She was always going on about something, and I stopped telling her when she was being crappy toward me because I felt like she was stressed and I didn't want to add to it. I know if you had asked her what was bothering her, she would have said me. I feel like, honestly she was projecting her feeling bad onto me. And if somehow I were gone her life would get better. I don't know how it is since I've neither seen or spoken to her in many months. But I doubt it's much different than the day she left me.

[fromheeltoheal]

It's helpful to think of a borderline's need to attach.  If someone knew they had a personality disorder but also considered an attachment mandatory, they aren't going to tell you anything that will potentially chase you away.  Unless of course they use it to elicit rescuing tendencies to affect the attachment, which could work with the right person.  Ethics and morals go out the window when someone is in survival mode.

[parisian]

Ethics and morals go out the window when someone is in survival mode.

Fromheel - she wasn't completely immoral of course, but was in respect to our relationship and disclosure.

Lol Blimblam - my ex never said she was crazy or made any reference to that. The really really odd thing is that she regularly referred to other people as 'nutters', when she in fact was probably the biggest one of all.

[ShadowIntheNight]

Ethics and morals go out the window when someone is in survival mode.

Fromheel - she wasn't completely immoral of course, but was in respect to our relationship and disclosure.

Lol Blimblam - my ex never said she was crazy or made any reference to that. The really really odd thing is that she regularly referred to other people as 'nutters', when she in fact was probably the biggest one of all.

Interesting. My ex usually referred to her clients (young people in their early 20s mostly) as her crazy kids. She said it kind of jokingly, but still not what you expect from a mental health professional. And interestingly enough, it wasn't until the later years of our relationship that she referred to clients this way. Her earlier jobs didn't have her around that age group of people. A lot of her behaviors changed when she took this job. It makes me wonder now if she had the full blown disorder when she was in college. Something new to wonder about... .

[FannyB]

Shouldn't there be 3 categories of pwBPD:

1) Undiagnosed;

2) Diagnosed and accepting;

3) Diagnosed and in denial.

I assume that unless they know they have a problem and are actively seeking treatment for it, then they would lack the motivation to inform you of their condition.

[cosmonaut]

Hey parisian,

I can understand your anger at not knowing about your ex's disorder.  I think all of us that didn't know about the disorder while we were with our ex would have liked to have known.  And it's natural to wonder what might have been if we had had that information.  If we feel that something was hidden from us, then that can only increase that feeling.

I think your ex may either have been deeply ashamed of her BPD, or she felt that you would certainly leave her for it and that terrified her.  I don't think she did it intentionally to hurt you, even though ultimately it ended up hurting you terribly.  In a perfect world, yes she should have told you.  Not telling you harms the trust that is so important in a relationship, and it actually prevented you from being able to better understand and relate to her.  But she can't see that.  All she was able to see was her shame and deep fear of abandonment.

[Tim300]

OP -- I had the same thought process as your original post here.  I really wish she had just told me, or that her mother had told me more explicitly.  Her mother did bring up the concept a couple times indirectly but without giving any weight to how serious BPD is.  There was a family friend who I suspect knew and I also suspect her father knew -- but I was kept away from the father (never met him) and from the family friend at the end.  I feel like the only way we would have had a chance to make it work would have been if I had known fully about BPD (but even then there would probably be no stopping the inevitable).  A lot of my reactions to her behavior were not optimal because I assumed that she was a non and didn't realize she was suffering from this specific mental illness until the last couple months (of the 2.5 year relationship).  I think the pwBPD and the people who know the pwBPD has BPD have a moral obligation to speak up and let the non know (as long as your personal safety/job will not be jeopardized).  I don't hold a grudge against my ex for her outrageous behavior, but I do think her non-disclosure was inappropriate.  I suspect that she dropped the acronym "BPD" on a previous guy and he immediately ran, so now she keeps her lips sealed.  Although it was unclear to me how much she accepted that she had it -- she effectively told me at the end that she knew she had it but she was scared to admit it because she didn't want it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  In any event, about 10 months into our engagement she disclosed that she was seeing a therapist and was doing DBT and had "issues".  I generally strongly agree with the sentiments of your post.  However, I also can't imagine having this illness and being utterly confused by your own behavior and why nobody can seem to understand you -- and being confused about how to disclose this.  Also, I doubt most third-party nons (who know about the diagnoses) really have any concept of just how sick BPD is unless the non has been in one of these relationships.  It might be easy for some to just Google "Borderline Personality Disorder" and briefly conclude that it's just some theoretical personality issue and not a big deal.  Finally, I suspect that my ex might have been shocked at just how severe her illness is -- she said that our year of engagement was the most traumatic year of her life.  She might only now realize just how bad it is.   

[Invictus01]

Tough call... . I generally stay away from women with mental issues whether it is a depression or bipolar or something else. But I broke enough of my own rules for this one, I have a feeling I'd break this rule too for her... .

[raisins3142]

My ex made a big deal out of disclosing that she was raped 23 years prior and that it gave her PTSD that she still suffers from.

She told me this like 2 weeks in and it was like "we need to have the talk".  It seemed a bit scripted and practiced and as if she tells all her boyfriends about this like 2 weeks in.

Of course, I was kind and nonjudgmental and angry at what had happened and wanted to help her.

Oddly, while she was telling me this, she was not upset or emotional at all, in fact she was positively beaming while discussing her rape, etc.

I think it was because it got her attention and it was having the desired effect on me.

She said a few times that she was crazy and was hiding it from me and that she did not dare express some of her thoughts and things that bothered her.

I don't think she was diagnosed BPD, I think she was misdiagnosed PTSD by a neophyte psych grad student, or at least the longer standing issues were ignored.

She also had 2 venereal diseases that she did not disclose, which harkens back to the OP.

If she knew she had BPD and what it was, then she would not disclose.

She would lie about nearly anything to maintain attachments or avoid anything negative.  Surely she would lie about that and it would not even be a moral concern to her.

I think most BPDs that are of the lying variety would hide this in a heart beat.

[Infared]

I am not sure, (and never will be) if it's some humans nature or BPD, but mine lied to hide things that she did not want me to know about. Example: she was living with me and started having a relationship with another man. She lied about it. I do not know the psychology of it. It's just the fact. To me this is far from a "little white lie".

So... .if this is a person's regular agenda and they think that they have a personality disorder, won't they just lie about it?  I do not think that my ex thought she had a personality disorder, but if she did I am sure she would have never mentioned it, ever... .knowing what I now know.

I definitely would have been one of those giant "lies by omission" and I would be left to figure it out... .and then I would be blamed for it. That is my experience.

The thought of putting that up on the table and discussing it would not be a consideration. That I am sure of... .

[raisins3142]

I think it is easy to forget that BPDs vary in how good of a person they are or try to be, just like NONs are on a spectrum.

BPDs that actually want to be a good person will tend to lie less.  My ex thought that everyone lies to survive and it is just what you do and doesn't hurt anyone until you get caught.  Even without BPD, I don't think she would've been a good person.  She was nice, but she was not good.

[Sunfl0wer]

I also imagine, that even if the person with BPD is aware of their Dx, that they perceive it as a great disadvantage in disclosing.

I can see how they may feel that knowledge of their Dx at times can unfairly damage their r/s.  Then we could label their behavior, thus ignoring the underlying issues and we may be likely to put less effort into the r/s. 

Not that it is morally good, but they could think they are doing us and the r/s a favor by  witholding this info.

[Blimblam]

Parisan

Does it feel like you deserved to know because you think you don't deserve to feel this pain?

If so isn't that a way of denying that you feel pain? Is that not the struggle itself?

You feel pain, yes it's real and yes it sucks its a part o your life now.  Accept it and it will slowly lesson or resist it and it will persist.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I also imagine, that even if the person with BPD is aware of their Dx, that they perceive it as a great disadvantage in disclosing.

I can see how they may feel that knowledge of their Dx at times can unfairly damage their r/s.  Then we could label their behavior, thus ignoring the underlying issues and we may be likely to put less effort into the r/s. 

Not that it is morally good, but they could think they are doing us and the r/s a favor by  witholding this info.

You know that might be fine for someone starting a relationship or even still in the getting to know phase and trying to decide if they want to continue the relationship.

But when you are talking about long term relationships, and I mean years of being together, there is no way you can't not disclose it if you've been diagnosed with it. At some point it will have to come up. If it never does, as with mine and several other posters experienced then the majority of the time the person with the BPD traits clearly does not know the have the disorder. Their behavior may be unexplainable to them but because they have been that way all of their adult life, with no diagnosis, then as far as they are concerned, it's just the way they are.

I don't think for a minute my ex thinks her behavior is abnormal. I didn't think so either until she left me the way she did. After I learned about BPD, all of her actions taken into that context looked markedly different.

[Mutt]

I don't think for a minute my ex thinks her behavior is abnormal. I didn't think so either until she left me the way she did. After I learned about BPD, all of her actions taken into that context looked markedly different.

I'm in the same boat. I don't think my ex partner things her behavior is abnormal or if she does she didn't say anything to me. I wish that she'd communicate her true feelings and she shuts down and freezes. Often there's an underlying clinical depression and she had communicate feelings that she wanted to kill herself because how terrible she felt.

I think non-disordered people have different levels of self awareness too. I wasn't aware of my own unhealthy behaviors, rescuer tendencies and co-dependency. I may not of known either if I had not met her. I wouldn't want to go through another painful r/s like that a second time or if I had the chance to have not met her, I would of taken that. It happened and I'm blessed with kids.

I have an understanding and self adjust my own behaviors and continue to work on me and I can say that my ex may live a lifetime mot knowing her maladaptive behaviors and continue to suffer.

[ripps]

Mine disclosed but I didn't see it until over:

My T said she has BPD traits. In two heated arguments I said "you have BPD". In both instances she instantly stopped arguing, held out her arms and said "come here" for a hug / to stop arguing.

Eerie!  She knew. But didn't want to be that person with BPD. She so wanted to be normal / perfect. Not sure it would have made a difference if she disclosed, I would have committed to helping her ... . that's me.