What do you think of when you hear narcissism?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

When I arrived on BPD family I was scouring the net for info on narcissism psychopathy and BPD. 

I ran into a lot of junk but was at the time vulnerable and confused.  I was having trouble looking at myself so for a while I created some image of narcissism that resonated with a lot of the info I found online as narcissism as some sort of monster.  Doing this allowed me to hide from myself for a while and when I spoke in that way on the leaving forum a slew of members rallied behind those ideas and it felt good sort of because it was validated by others.  It just didn't sit right with me though but I was told by many that that wS the truth as what ever I had once believed was just a lie and a fantasy.  I was very very vulnerable at the time. 

After a lot of self inquiry and reading the search for the real self by masterson. I related a lot of mastersons concepts about the painful real self and the false self to my own self and pain.  I could see aspects of myself in his text.  I then interpreted te text as not just limited to PDs but to general underlying patterns in people in general as a sort of response to our environment which is society.  The false self was something I saw that we all possessd.

My idea of narcissism changed to this.  Narcissm is basically an inner construct that objectifies. Other people to allow you to project your inner crap into the idea of an "other." This allows you to create a false image of yourself in relation to this "other."

I realized we all do this to some extent. That what we are essentially all here doing is examining our narcissism in relation to our real self and the pain that dwells there.

I'm wondering what narcissism means to you and how you relate to it?

[Blimblam]

When I arrived on BPD family I was scouring the net for info on narcissism psychopathy and BPD. 

I ran into a lot of junk but was at the time vulnerable and confused.  I was having trouble looking at myself so for a while I created some image of narcissism that resonated with a lot of the info I found online as narcissism as some sort of monster.  Doing this allowed me to hide from myself for a while and when I spoke in that way on the leaving forum a slew of members rallied behind those ideas and it felt good sort of because it was validated by others.  It just didn't sit right with me though but I was told by many that that wS the truth as what ever I had once believed was just a lie and a fantasy.  I was very very vulnerable at the time. 

After a lot of self inquiry and reading the search for the real self by masterson. I related a lot of mastersons concepts about the painful real self and the false self to my own self and pain.  I could see aspects of myself in his text.  I then interpreted te text as not just limited to PDs but to general underlying patterns in people in general as a sort of response to our environment which is society.  The false self was something I saw that we all possessd.

My idea of narcissism changed to this.  Narcissm is basically an inner construct that objectifies. Other people to allow you to project your inner crap into the idea of an "other." This allows you to create a false image of yourself in relation to this "other."

I realized we all do this to some extent. That what we are essentially all here doing is examining our narcissism in relation to our real self and the pain that dwells there.

I'm wondering what narcissism means to you and how you relate to it?

[dharmagems]

I am an adult child of a malignant narcissist mother.  I was raised in a system where the outside looked a certain way and the inside was a reign of terror.  This woman was an egoist without the ability to empathize.  Her love was conditional, and if I did well, it was good for her, and she gave me things and become grandiose about me.  I was a golden child for a while.  But when things I did were not reflecting well on her, I knew and learned early on that it would be my demise. 

I have adult child symptoms myself where I don't have a Self.  I learned early on that she was the queen and I am here to serve her.  I felt guilty focusing on my needs.  This set me up to be a codependent/dependent to my borderline xH.  He gave me what my mother never gave me, which was idealization.  So, I still have to continue to learn about my True Self and nurture that.

[Blimblam]

Ugh I'm sorry dharma!

Bering objectified and used to contain the difficult parts of another is a heavy burdain especially on a young child developing a sense of identity to relate to the world to.  Even mild forms of narcissism can be really hard on a child.  I can relate that my step mom had Narcisistic traits but I always struggled with her when I realized that nothing would ever be enough it was the state of contempt itself she needed to hold me in to validate herself.  It set me up for self destructive patterns but I now relize that what was unraveling was the reality built atop of that deep seeded pain.  Lean into the pain.  It has the answers.  It seems like you have been examining the dynamics that led to your relationship which was for me difficult and painfull.  I was in denial for a little while but leaning into that pain really helped me to blaze a path through the nonsense but it was not comfortable.  Keep going and if you need somone to vent to you can contact me on here.  Keep going

[EaglesJuju]

I am an offspring of  highly narcissistic parents. Although they constantly put their needs before mine as a child, I was taught that having your owns needs and wants is selfish.  If I ever cried or was upset, they both would give me almost a blank stare and not comfort me, then they would talk about why they are upset.

My oldest brother was the "golden child" who they praised and loved. I desperately wanted to have that attention and affection, so I started catering to their every whim and pleasing them. When I would please them, they would give me attention and affection, but it was short lived. As a result, I started doing more self-sacrificing things, taking on both of their responsibilities as parents, and never focused on what I want.

I was their outlet for them to project all of their problems on to.  I accepted that and started to believe that I am the source for everyone's problems. They did this so they could feel good about themselves and garner sympathy from others.

I have two conflicting familial roles: pathetic/childlike and the helper/fixer. I now suffer from DPD/codependency.

I view narcissism as frightening, selfishness, and a source of pain. I have spent most of my life trying to not be "narcissistic." 

[Blimblam]

The thing I realized is in my rs with my ex in order for me to be idealized by her she had to split somone else black. So in her eyes I saw an idealized version of myself but by proxy the person she had split black contained the parts of myself I didn't want to face.  So while I myself didn't utilize splitting when i fused my identity with my ex she did.  She fused her identity to the place where the repressed aspects of my psyche exist and mirrored back mamma love where I would ordinarily feel pain.  It reminds me of that scene in dark knight rises where cat woman uncracks the uncrackable safe where Bruce Wayne hid his mothers pearls.   So through my ex I had access to all those parts of myself that were under the surface the good and my ex acted as a barrier to the pain being held by the split black person.  This fused whole fits the mold of a narcissists ideal self image at the cost of splitting an "other."   Like a narcisist I was not aware of the splitting because it was my ex that was splitting for me.  In the absence of my ex I had full access to the part of myself that held the repressed pain that didn't fit in with the image of myself I had identified with being my ego.  

So the easy solution to cover up that pain would be to find a way to put up a barrier over that pain to split the pain into an "other," like was done durring the RS with my ex but for me to do that myself would make the Narcisist me and for a short period I did do that but it just felt wrong and the people enabling that behavior felt angry and cultish and in deep denial.  

[dharmagems]

Oh my Blimblam,

I could see that your ex was like a rescuer/protector from the other devalued person when she split, so this fed your narcissism.  Then you were idealized and kept you from seeing your whole parts.  She was a key, unlocking yourself to your mamma love.  And without her anymore, you see your whole self, good and bad, and it's the well of pain rushing in all over again.  You think now you have to be the role of her and split others, but then you know that's narcissistic, and that direction didn't feel like you were healing. 

I suppose that you know you have that key now to access all your parts, good, bad, and ugly.  When you're ready, in your own time, you can allow your parts to talk to each other, like integrated family systems.  Through the process you're going to be gentle and kind to yourself, because the black parts have been split off for a while.

Thank you Blim for sharing this insightful realization of a deepening discovery of how feeding your narcissism or False Defences keeps you from accessing your True Self.  Realizing this, you are on the path of healing your parts.  Keep up the good work. 

[eeks]

I always thought of narcissism as vanity, the person being full of themselves and self-focused, can't get enough of their own image, which is pretty much the pop culture definition of it.  Which is unfortunate, because that definition doesn't really generate empathy, whereas the understanding of the origins of this condition does.

The way I now understand it is that parents provide a "mirror" for young children, to show them who they are, give them an identity essentially.  If the parent is in pain, the child ends up getting a dirty or distorted mirror.  And splitting is sort of a last-ditch survival mechanism, "No, I am not bad like the parent says I am, I am good!"  but the only way they can preserve that sense of goodness is by splitting, that is, taking all the bad that the parent is projecting onto them and putting it somewhere else. 

I agree with you, Blimblam, that if you expand the concept of narcissism beyond the personality disorder to the idea of a "false self", we all have one of those. 

There's only really two "movements" possible in relationship, moving towards (attachment) and moving away from (autonomy).  (And also staying in the same place for a while, I suppose?  But that doesn't tend to happen for long, I don't think.) Both attachment and autonomy are necessary in different doses during our development as children.

After having another friendship (a non-BPD, but he thinks his mother might have BPD traits) descend to this sort of "You promised to take care of me and you didn't!" (where that's what the friend is saying to me) dynamic, I am sitting with myself and really thinking about what it is that's going on with me. 

Somehow, I tend to think I need more attachment or closeness, but I have had two psychoanalysts (one is my current individual therapist, and the other was a facilitator at a group therapy program I did last year) place my issues mainly around identity and autonomy, which is adolescence.  If I really look inside myself I see that at the core, what I need is to have the freedom to exercise my own life energy towards my own goals and desires.

And it's not that I don't need closeness at all, I do, but the reason I didn't see it before is because, rather than truly needing more closeness, it's more like I am still looking to my (internalized) mother to give me permission to use my own life energy. 

One time I said to my therapist, "It's not like she does that stereotypical parental thing, 'you stop that right now young lady!', she just gets really slow, and quiet, and serious, and I feel like she has turned the volume dial right down on the stereo."  My therapist said that the former is repression, and the latter is dissociation.  And that my mother has difficulty allowing herself to feel any type of passion because of the strict controls she puts on herself (coping strategy for sexual abuse that she went through as a child).  And when my mother dissociated, I felt like there was nothing there to push against, her energy was just gone (shuts off) and I was kind of stranded and just felt shame. 

So it's not that I have no energy of my own.  I've got tons of it.  It just gets hidden... .just like hers... .ugh.

[Blimblam]

Eagle juju,

My gut reaction to reading your post was, that sucks! And I wanted to throw something. 

I can sense your at a very tender stage still with all this.  I suppose highlighted by the pathetic childlike stance. 

I can in some ways relate but for me it's like this child that goes, see look!  But it's like invisible to them.  Which in turn made me feel invisible.  I've really been leaning into that lately and it has gone from so painfull I wanted to die to now some sort of absurd joke and it's probably still transforming.  It's like I'm in a box and when I get close to the way out it gets more painfull and eventually i exit but into an even larger box to dwell in and when I get close to the way out I feel that familiar discomfort and exit into an even larger box.  Over and over.  But in each box my perception changes a bit.

I was probably the golden child to my brother as the black sheep and him being some sort of sadistic cluster b.  The thing was when you are an abstract objectified extension of your parents it's like they just don't understand how react to anything deep and real beyond validating this image they have of themself that isn't even real!  When I would confront my parents I always hear a laundry list of how they have utilized this false image to Achieve "success," in society but when it comes to something trully real their is a painful void and as the child it's like I am constantly aware of it. Thus it became internalized! That's not me though! Thus the splitting to try to create the autonomy to identify myself free of that.  That itself is narcissism though! Not evil or bad although that construct could allow me to easily fall into a heavily narcissistic pattern if enabled by others that it's the path to "true happiness," or "success," or any of the other labels I see narcisistic cults use to entice vulnerable people.

The irony is its like narcissism exists to avoid the existance of pain as ones own.  It's like a constant state of a denial so the stigmatization of the concept prevents one from even examining itself. It's like some absurd irony.

Eagle i see you doing hard work.  I too also fell into a fixer sort of disposition although it's something I can't commit myself to anymore because when I do my self image sort of implodes and I realize I can't really help or fix anyone only point things out and at times assist. 

The labels helped me to sort of identify these structures within myself but eventually they became sort of blockages I hid behind them the labels would sort of fade away and I would see those parts of myself in a new light and enter that new box that the old box had existed within to get lost in the new territory for a while.

[Blimblam]

Eeks,

Your self enquiry always impresses me. It really shows you have come a long way. 

I really identify with this sort of desire to check in with an internal parent figure for sort of permission to act on something. 

My parents were more repressive of my passion really.  Later times it would be disassociation when I would try to explain to them where I was at in myself then I would be lectured about how grateful I should be compared to their childhood and blah blah basically it was avoiding looking at the part of themself the idea of me existed and interacting with their own pain and projecting it onto me.

You see that's the irony of narcissism because when it gets pointed out it always reverts to how useful it is for "success," then some sort of rationalization to a perceived threat.  The sad thing is the perceived threat is their own vulnerable parts of themself they are ashamed of.  It is like an automated response system.

Te thing is it's a part of myself and everyone.  It's like we are pretty much always talking about it although indirectly and externalized into situations that exist outside ourself.  It makes me think of that line mutt always posts "we don't see things as they are we see things as we are."

[Blimblam]

Then I realized in my last post narcissistic splitting behavior occurred .  I started to use the word "them," and "themself," then later adjusted mentioning it's a part of all of us. Lol it's a sneaky tricky thing !  I guess that's why I began to use "we," language as a sort of way to begin to integrate the ,"other," as a part of my own whole.  Because it's like my whole became fragmented and I existed in compartments that existed outside of the now or the self that existed within the now was ignorant to compartmentaliZed aspects of it contained in an "other," that engage in the very behavior I was acting out in that moment! Lol.  You see that's why I see narcissism as some sort of absurd joke.

[EaglesJuju]

The irony is its like narcissism exists to avoid the existance of pain as ones own.  It's like a constant state of a denial so the stigmatization of the concept prevents one from even examining itself. It's like some absurd irony.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this. I did not create my personality disorder and the accompanying pain related to it.

I tend to not relate narcissism to self-awareness or self-examining.

Eagle i see you doing hard work.  I too also fell into a fixer sort of disposition although it's something I can't commit myself to anymore because when I do my self image sort of implodes and I realize I can't really help or fix anyone only point things out and at times assist. 

I have been working on myself for a very long time. My fixer/helper qualities are apart of my personality. I cannot or do not want to change that. On the other hand, I have worked on not using these inherent traits in a maladaptive way.

The labels helped me to sort of identify these structures within myself but eventually they became sort of blockages I hid behind them the labels would sort of fade away and I would see those parts of myself in a new light and enter that new box that the old box had existed within to get lost in the new territory for a while.

I agree with you on the pros and cons of labeling. 

[Blimblam]

Talking about our own narcissism is like talking about our own racism.  We all want to pretend it doesn't exist but it's their because that's the model we are brought up in.  It's just taboo to bring up but the reality is the way I was raised I am racist against myself!  

It becomes most obvious in a friend of mine who will go on and on about the, "dirty Mexicans," he uses that "other," among many to relate his self image to to extoll the virtues of splitting behaviors and positive thinking and how "empowerimg" it is.  But when his mom is around she say, " but mike I'm mexican, that makes you half mexican."  This friend doesn't only use the Mexicans as this bad "other," he usually talks about, "negative people," the people who bring you down that you must extricate from your life to preserve this self image.  The thing is he rarely talks about the Mexicans or negative people it will slip out when he gets close to the uncomfortable parts of himself.  He's ussually extolling the virtues of surrounding yourself with, "positive people" who "bring you up." It makes it seem real attractive but his entire self image is in relation to a bad "other," if one really pays attention, except he has it all rationalized and sells it well.

 I dont like to enable that sort of behavior because narcissism is a slippery slope and ultimately it hides us from ourself.  When I point it out in crowds it ussually gets twisted into I am against people who "bring you down." As if I'm like an enabler of abusive people, oh the irony! An absurd joke! I am merely pointing out that structure is that structure and it is used to support a false self image in relation to an "other," whose purpose is to support the subjects self image, that is inherently abusive becuase the other is objectified and thus they are invisible to the subject.

[Blimblam]

The irony is its like narcissism exists to avoid the existance of pain as ones own.  It's like a constant state of a denial so the stigmatization of the concept prevents one from even examining itself. It's like some absurd irony.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this. I did not create my personality disorder and the accompanying pain related to it.

I tend to not relate narcissism to self-awareness or self-examining.

Eagle i see you doing hard work.  I too also fell into a fixer sort of disposition although it's something I can't commit myself to anymore because when I do my self image sort of implodes and I realize I can't really help or fix anyone only point things out and at times assist.  

I have been working on myself for a very long time. My fixer/helper qualities are apart of my personality. I cannot or do not want to change that. On the other hand, I have worked on not using these inherent traits in a maladaptive way.

The labels helped me to sort of identify these structures within myself but eventually they became sort of blockages I hid behind them the labels would sort of fade away and I would see those parts of myself in a new light and enter that new box that the old box had existed within to get lost in the new territory for a while.

I agree with you on the pros and cons of labeling.  

I'm not sure how you interpreted that you created your Pd.  It's merely an adaptation to your environment although you may have had some genetic predisposition such as being sensitive which is a great strength in a validating environment.

For a while my definition of narcissim was limited to some sort of stereotype and while that does exist it made examining the painful parts of myself difficult.  

At it's core is the splitting behavior.  Once I began to better understand splitting behavior I saw it everywhere!  On micro and macro scales. If it doesn't fit into the box one veiws as reality it is scary because it is foreign and doesn't fit so it often becomes split into the "other."  

If the fixer thing works for you I respect that!  I myself on a personal level relate to it and I continuously have fallen into that role in my life but like with my pwBPD ex it typically leads to a deconstruction of a false image of myself. 

I think the aspect of the psyche that becomes wounded to heal is sacred and the fixer mindset is like an externalization of that but turning that energy inward is very difficult and painful because it requires us to confront our own pain and the pain of the other as our own becUse the other is an illusion.

[Blimblam]

Eagle juju

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that narcissm is the thing in the way of self awareness.  I'm not placing a value judgement on it other than its absurd which is more an observation and I dont mean that in a pejorative way.

Actually perhaps it's necessary in order to examine itself in relation to the other but ultimately the notion of seperateness is an illusion. So narcissism is idk I guess self limiting but necessary to develop. Sense of autonomy.

[EaglesJuju]

I'm not sure how you interpreted that you created your Pd.  It's merely an adaptation to your environment although you may have had some genetic predisposition such as being sensitive which is a great strength in a validating environment.

I am sorry I must have misinterpreted what you were meaning.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that narcissm is the thing in the way of self awareness.  I'm not placing a value judgement on it other than its absurd which is more an observation and I dont mean that in a pejorative way.

The construct of narcissism can vary.

What about fear getting in the way of self awareness or another feeling or emotion? Is narcissism a feeling or emotion? 

That is the caveat to constructing a label like narcissism.

Actually perhaps it's necessary in order to examine itself in relation to the other but ultimately the notion of seperateness is an illusion. So narcissism is idk I guess self limiting but necessary to develop. Sense of autonomy.

I understand what you are saying. Here is a question to ponder. What happens to those who do not develop narcissism?

[Blimblam]

Juju

When I think about these things it's more of a visual of shapes and interlocking pieces that create a larger shape. Emotions attach to that shape.  So it's like the anger in the way of veiwing the vulnerable parts of ourself that are perceived as external is like viewing the boundary of the container our conciousness exists within and that container is our narcissism. 

In one of my posts I was describing the fused whole with the "non," and the pwBPD.  The pwBPD in that case would be somone who hasn't fromed a narcissistic self image and a sense of autonomy. 

But examining my role reveals well as a unit I needed the pwBPD to create a narcissitic self image of myself that would implode so I could individuate from it.

[Blimblam]

Look here's the thing though structurally narcissim, racism, imperialism, colonialism it's all the same.  Those same structures exist within each of us.  But now we have been taught that those things are "bad." So we conventionally project that bad into, the "bad other." When the reality is we still exist within those same structures even if the conditions have improved.  

The fused whole of my ex and myself fits that same model structurally and my ex began to feel like she was improsoned by me as if I was her jailor!  

Now I can see why!  

Here's where it gets funny.  Ok so that structure I refer to well in my mind it's its own shape but it's the same as the Kathmandu drama triangle now if the symbol of conciousness is an eye and we put that eye in the triangle.  What do we get .