Extinction Bursts in Me

[Depression = 72% of members]

I feel like a lot of progress has been made between me and my husband in the last week. I see my husband making a lot of really great efforts.

I was reviewing the communication tools, especially the part about rewarding good behaviors and extinction bursts.

I am having a difficult time rewarding the good behaviors. I feel like I have done a pretty good job of setting up more positive communication. I am gauging that based on my husband's reaction to me.

I read this:

Extinction Burst - The term extinction burst describes the phenomena of behavior temporarily getting worse, not better, when the reinforcement stops.

Spontaneous Recovery - Behavior affected by extinction is apt to recur in the future when the trigger is presented again. This is known as spontaneous recovery or the transient increase in behavior. Be aware of this eventuality. It is a part of the extinction process. Don't be discouraged.

Not sure how to explain this. As my husband gets more stable and makes more effort, I feel like MY emotions and MY behavior are all over the place. As long as I was focused on how bad his behavior was, I was able to keep it together. Now, I sometimes feel like I am the one behaving badly at times. If that is the case, then what motivation does my husband have to continue on his path of improvement.

I have seen people say that when a non does this it is likely because of all of the repressed stuff. It is because of exhaustion, etc. Couldn't it be said that the non is having an extinction burst due to the change in behavior of the pwBPD? If so, then that is contributing to the cycle of conflict.

Non sets boundaries. pwBPD reacts and has extinctions bursts. Things get better. Non doesn't know what to do or how to act. Is afraid that pwBPD will resort to old behaviors and acts accordingly. pwBPD senses this and then resorts to old behavior. Cycle starts all over again.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

[vortex of confusion]

I feel like a lot of progress has been made between me and my husband in the last week. I see my husband making a lot of really great efforts.

I was reviewing the communication tools, especially the part about rewarding good behaviors and extinction bursts.

I am having a difficult time rewarding the good behaviors. I feel like I have done a pretty good job of setting up more positive communication. I am gauging that based on my husband's reaction to me.

I read this:

Extinction Burst - The term extinction burst describes the phenomena of behavior temporarily getting worse, not better, when the reinforcement stops.

Spontaneous Recovery - Behavior affected by extinction is apt to recur in the future when the trigger is presented again. This is known as spontaneous recovery or the transient increase in behavior. Be aware of this eventuality. It is a part of the extinction process. Don't be discouraged.

Not sure how to explain this. As my husband gets more stable and makes more effort, I feel like MY emotions and MY behavior are all over the place. As long as I was focused on how bad his behavior was, I was able to keep it together. Now, I sometimes feel like I am the one behaving badly at times. If that is the case, then what motivation does my husband have to continue on his path of improvement.

I have seen people say that when a non does this it is likely because of all of the repressed stuff. It is because of exhaustion, etc. Couldn't it be said that the non is having an extinction burst due to the change in behavior of the pwBPD? If so, then that is contributing to the cycle of conflict.

Non sets boundaries. pwBPD reacts and has extinctions bursts. Things get better. Non doesn't know what to do or how to act. Is afraid that pwBPD will resort to old behaviors and acts accordingly. pwBPD senses this and then resorts to old behavior. Cycle starts all over again.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

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[UndauntedDad]

Hi Vortex,

I feel like the same thing is happening to me!  Suddenly >I< am the one feeling irrational anger (not quite the same rages, thank goodness) and >I< am the one wanting to constantly bring up the past / fight unfairly.  My uBPDwife has noticed this, and pointed out that it does not encourage her to keep up her good behavior.

It's very confusing, and discouraging.  I'm now realizing how much of my self-image was tied into being the "kind, forgiving, turn the other cheek, rational" one--but I couldn't keep that up forever.  On the other hand, I had very strong co-dependent tendencies for many years, and as we both work to change these behaviors, it's hard to keep the boundaries in one place.

My therapist made two helpful suggestions, and I added a third.  First, forgive yourself.  You have been through a lot, you've probably put up with a lot more than most people, for years.  Don't expect that past stuff to stay buried--you can ignore it during a crisis, but when things calm down it may pop up.  That's totally understandable... .no quick fix there, though.

The second suggestion was more actionable/productive.  I asked my wife for time, and patience.  I told her, we both need time to adjust, let's take the long view and remember that these changes and improvement take months, or longer.  Some backlash is to be expected. I asked my wife to keep trying, even if I get angry (and we both know there's some justice here, since I'm 14 yrs into this, and what I dish out is pretty feeble.) My wife agreed, since she wants to change for the long term. For my part, I promised to keep trying, and be open about what I'm feeling, and to TRY to constantly give her positive feedback/rewards for her positive changes.  I have to grit my teeth to do that, at times, and I often fail, and it feels really unfair to me.  But when I can "be like my nicer old self" (her words), even if I don't feel that sincere, it helps her.

The third suggestion is maybe only relevant for me:  I set deadlines.  Intolerable situations can be withstood if there is hope and if they are finite.  I gave myself 5 yrs after the DV ended (now passed), 1 yr to decide if I can still stay (ongoing), and a month ago I told my wife we will re-evaluate changes on both sides after 6 months.  Sometimes she feels like it is a pending ultimatum, which is bad, but other times she and I take solace in the idea that we won't do anything hasty for a while.  For her, the deadline was actually essential for stimulating any real change. And for me personally, on the worst grit-my-teeth days, I look at the calendar and its easier to withstand one more day. 

Coming back around to the extinction bursts, I guess I am saying that if that's really what's happening on both sides, they will pass with time.

Hang in there!

[takingandsending]

I'm now realizing how much of my self-image was tied into being the "kind, forgiving, turn the other cheek, rational" one--but I couldn't keep that up forever. 

Bingo, Undaunted. That's it for me, too. I realized that one day going into MC. I was asked what I get out of remaining in the dysfunctional dynamic and concluded that it let's me maintain the high ground and look like the good guy. I am trying to embrace my inner a-hole, and just accept that I have feelings that aren't nice, aren't easy, and aren't very pretty. Suppressing it sure hasn't helped. 

[OffRoad]

I often wonder if it isn't almost a PTSD type of thing. Waiting for the other shoe to drop. That can make anyone really anxious and nervous.

[Loosestrife]

I often wonder if it isn't almost a PTSD type of thing. Waiting for the other shoe to drop. That can make anyone really anxious and nervous.

I think this too. It's takes time to trust again, but BPDs aren't exactly patient.

[vortex of confusion]

I feel like the same thing is happening to me!  Suddenly >I< am the one feeling irrational anger (not quite the same rages, thank goodness) and >I< am the one wanting to constantly bring up the past / fight unfairly.  My uBPDwife has noticed this, and pointed out that it does not encourage her to keep up her good behavior.

That is the tricky part. He will do something and make changes for a short time. I am not jumping up and down with excitement over it because I know his pattern, which is to do really great long enough for me to relax. Once I relax and chill out, then the cycle seems to start over. It feels like a catch 22. Right now, it feels like he and I are in a pretty decent place. I want to maintain that. I am trying to be mindful of how I word things so that I do not discourage him. I also want him to realize that the reality is that he can't be "good" for a couple of days and expect me to accept that he has changed for good.

My therapist made two helpful suggestions, and I added a third.  First, forgive yourself.  You have been through a lot, you've probably put up with a lot more than most people, for years.  Don't expect that past stuff to stay buried--you can ignore it during a crisis, but when things calm down it may pop up.  That's totally understandable... .no quick fix there, though.

When it pops up for me, that doesn't mean that I have to beat my husband over the head with it. I want to address this stuff but in a healthy, non-confrontational manner.

The second suggestion was more actionable/productive.  I asked my wife for time, and patience.  I told her, we both need time to adjust, let's take the long view and remember that these changes and improvement take months, or longer.  Some backlash is to be expected. I asked my wife to keep trying, even if I get angry (and we both know there's some justice here, since I'm 14 yrs into this, and what I dish out is pretty feeble.) My wife agreed, since she wants to change for the long term. For my part, I promised to keep trying, and be open about what I'm feeling, and to TRY to constantly give her positive feedback/rewards for her positive changes.  I have to grit my teeth to do that, at times, and I often fail, and it feels really unfair to me.  But when I can "be like my nicer old self" (her words), even if I don't feel that sincere, it helps her.

I am 17 years in. He and I have had the same conversation about how it took a long time for things to get broken so it will take a long time for things to get fixed.

I have told my husband that I have a very difficult time being open and vulnerable to him. The reason is that when I do try to open up to him, he cuts me off, changes the subject and starts talking about himself. I used to try to engage and interrupt. Now, I just go quiet. It is funny how I will go quiet and let him go on and on and on. When he finally stops talking, I won't respond. At that point, he will realize what he has done. Sometimes, he will try to get me to open up again. Sometimes I do and sometimes I tell him, "I no longer feel like having this conversation."

The third suggestion is maybe only relevant for me:  I set deadlines.  Intolerable situations can be withstood if there is hope and if they are finite.  I gave myself 5 yrs after the DV ended (now passed), 1 yr to decide if I can still stay (ongoing), and a month ago I told my wife we will re-evaluate changes on both sides after 6 months.  Sometimes she feels like it is a pending ultimatum, which is bad, but other times she and I take solace in the idea that we won't do anything hasty for a while.  For her, the deadline was actually essential for stimulating any real change. And for me personally, on the worst grit-my-teeth days, I look at the calendar and its easier to withstand one more day.

My husband and I have done that in a more roundabout sort of way. Right now, we don't have the money to separate or divorce so we are trying to stick it out and work on things day by day. Our deadline is when we get more financially stable, which will be when we get out of the debt management program. I think that is about 4 years away, maybe less. 

Coming back around to the extinction bursts, I guess I am saying that if that's really what's happening on both sides, they will pass with time.

True. I happened to be reading through the lessons and read the stuff on extinction bursts and had a bit of an epiphany. If I feel off kilter and don't know how to react when HIS behavior changes, imagine how it must feel for him. He has done nothing (at least that is perceivable) to change and all of the sudden he is hit with me setting boundaries and changing my behavior.

[vortex of confusion]

I often wonder if it isn't almost a PTSD type of thing. Waiting for the other shoe to drop. That can make anyone really anxious and nervous.

I think this too. It's takes time to trust again, but BPDs aren't exactly patient.

Very true! My husband wants things fixed and he wants it fixed NOW. IF he is "good" for a couple of days, then I am supposed to accept that he is going to be good forever.

[misuniadziubek]

I often wonder if it isn't almost a PTSD type of thing. Waiting for the other shoe to drop. That can make anyone really anxious and nervous.

I think this too. It's takes time to trust again, but BPDs aren't exactly patient.

Very true! My husband wants things fixed and he wants it fixed NOW. IF he is "good" for a couple of days, then I am supposed to accept that he is going to be good forever.

Take it one day at a time? Be present and happy with what is, and don't worry about what might happen?

Easier said than done, of course :P

Sometimes I feel like I'm the crazy one. He's managing his life better than I am. I have so much repressed emotions sometimes because I've spent so much time tiptoe-ing around him.

[vortex of confusion]

Take it one day at a time? Be present and happy with what is, and don't worry about what might happen?

Easier said than done, of course :P

For some reason, that made me laugh. Not in a disrespectful way. It was more like, "Oh hey, that is how I have made it almost 17 years with this person." And, being present and happy with what is rather that what might happen is exactly what gets me back to the place where I relax and the cycle starts all over again. 

[Michelle27]

Wow.  This hit a nerve for me.  My uBPDh and I have been together for 15 years and the first 7 were great but things went downhill when (in his words), he crashed after discovering that his son from his first marriage had been horribly abused in my H's ex wife's home.  We now know that this brought up for my H his own abuse at the hands of his Dad and that's what began the better part of a decade of rages and mostly living crisis to crisis.  This past year so many things happened that spurred him to begin making changes and working towards getting therapy and help.  I almost left as promises had been made for so long without action and that's when he also confessed to an affair with a friend of mine years ago that went on for a year.  The pain of that, combined with the built up anger and resentments spurred me to sign up for my own therapy where I realized that I wasn't so much angry at him (although some of it was) but that I was furious with myself for allowing myself to put up with his behaviors for so long.  Working through that, I had what I can only describe as a "BPD like rage" that lasted for 2 days.  The first day I knew I was going to snap his head off, so I texted him when he was on his way home from work that dinner was in the oven and I was putting myself to bed.  I stayed there for 3 or 4 hours and then got up and yelled at him in a way I'm not proud of or have ever done again or since.  I can only assume that was my own extinction burst too.

[misuniadziubek]

Take it one day at a time? Be present and happy with what is, and don't worry about what might happen?

Easier said than done, of course :P

For some reason, that made me laugh. Not in a disrespectful way. It was more like, "Oh hey, that is how I have made it almost 17 years with this person." And, being present and happy with what is rather that what might happen is exactly what gets me back to the place where I relax and the cycle starts all over again.  

This is why I added the easier said than done. But you know, what I'm trying to say here is, take it one day at a time and be present for yourself as well. You said that you find yourself becoming worse as he becomes better, experiencing an extinction burst. Take that in stride as well. Take a moment to figure out what's going on with you that leaves you this way. It's not a bad thing to let those emotions bubble up to the surface. Accept them, be open to them. Love yourself for getting through so much with one person and embrace that your human too.

Here's an idea. Don't know if you ever tried this. When things seem to be getting worse, go off on your own for a bit, take a pad of paper a pen, set a timer for 10-15 minutes and just start writing. Anything and everything that comes to your mind. Even the most silly non-sensical things.  Just write it and don't stop until your timer goes off. Then put it away and come back to it in a day or two.

It's a nice way to figure out what's going on within you. Like a personal talk-therapy session. Good for your emotional health.

[vortex of confusion]

The pain of that, combined with the built up anger and resentments spurred me to sign up for my own therapy where I realized that I wasn't so much angry at him (although some of it was) but that I was furious with myself for allowing myself to put up with his behaviors for so long.  Working through that, I had what I can only describe as a "BPD like rage" that lasted for 2 days.  The first day I knew I was going to snap his head off, so I texted him when he was on his way home from work that dinner was in the oven and I was putting myself to bed.  I stayed there for 3 or 4 hours and then got up and yelled at him in a way I'm not proud of or have ever done again or since.  I can only assume that was my own extinction burst too.

I don't know why but reading this made me feel so much better. I have had a few of my own temper tantrums here and there. I have behaved in ways that I think are horrible at different times. With 17 years of history, I think I have tried just about everything at one time or another. I feel like I have been fighting for this relationship since day one. I feel like I have been repressed, depressed, and who knows what else at different times.

Because things are in a good period, I do NOT want to fall right back into being oblivious to all of the stuff that has happened over the course of our marriage. It is finding that balance between enjoying the good stuff without focusing on the bad and sabatoging things.

[Michelle27]

I need that balance too.  Mine wasn't as long as yours, but the pain is deep and I insisted on being separated in order to work on both of our stuff without triggering each other.  I wish I had done this sooner. 

[vortex of confusion]

I need that balance too.  Mine wasn't as long as yours, but the pain is deep and I insisted on being separated in order to work on both of our stuff without triggering each other.  I wish I had done this sooner. 

I have brought up the idea of a physical separation. It wasn't going to fly. There was a million excuses. The closest thing we got to a physical separation was me leaving for week and making him figure out how to run the house and take care of the kids by himself. That woke him up a little but it has been a long and winding road. Last September, his mom paid for him to fly back to his home town so he could attend his high school reunion. He cut that trip as short as humanly possible. It irritated me because he used my work as an excuse to not be gone too long. I could have found alternatives for the kids for the day or two that I work.

We have had in house separation of sorts. I haven't shared a room with him for a really long time. I usually sleep on the couch or on the floor in the kids' room. Every now and then, when he is really trying, I will sleep in his room with him. It isn't that often though.

Right now, I am feeling a bit nervous about things but am not sure why. I set boundaries about him not calling me so often during the day. I am glad to report that he has stopped calling so much. Some days, he doesn't call at all until he is on his way home. I have what I want but it makes me nervous because of his past behavior. In the past, when he would stop calling me, it was because he was talking to other females that he had met through online ads. I am grateful that I don't have all of the interruptions. However, I am a bit nervous because I don't know if is because the boundaries or working or if he is doing those things again. I don't know how to bring it up without sounding like an accusatory b word.

And, I don't want to sound like I am being contradictory. I wanted him to stop calling so much and now that he isn't I am wondering why. I think it stems from the all or nothing. Stop calling so much is being understood as don't call at all. I called him to give him a report on the finances since I paid the bills and we are looking for room in the budget to get some car repairs done. He seemed surprised that I called and said, "I didn't know if I was going to call you or not." Something doesn't feel right to me and I am not sure whether I am being paranoid or if there is something amiss. Usually when I get these feelings, there is something going on. I have been burned a whole lot of times by giving people the benefit of the doubt.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't think extinction bursts are quite the way to describe what you are going through, VoC.

The classic example was a youtube video of somebody walking into an elevator, pushing the button (nothing), pushing it again (nothing) pushing it a third time (nothing), then having a little fit, and punching/pushing the button a dozen rapid fire times in a row... .before walking out to take the stairs.

When you start enforcing a boundary with another person, what you are doing is disconnecting the button in you that they are used to pushing and getting a result/reaction from you. When it doesn't happen, they are first confused, then REALLY ANGRY as they figure out that the button doesn't work anymore! That part is the extinction burst.



What you describe in yourself sounds like something different. Your husband was the abusive and controlling person in your household. You (for years!) were stuffing your own emotions away, and letting his BIG LOUD ABUSIVE emotions take all the oxygen out of the room... .so there wasn't any space for you to feel or express your own emotions.

Finally you started enforcing boundaries against bad behavior on his part. And it stopped happening as much. There is a little oxygen left over in the room for you now.

All of a sudden you are feeling your own emotions, both about what he's doing today and what he did over the years when you stuffed your own emotions.

You are expressing those emotions in... .err... .kinda violent and inappropriate ways, not as an extinction burst, but because you are just figuring out how to express and deal with your emotions.

You are still working out better/healthier ways to do it. You are making progress. Blowing up at him is better than stuffing it completely. You see that blowing up at him may rarely work out well... .but more often makes things worse. I expect it will take a while; be patient with yourself!

In a way your lucky--since a pwBPD is stuck living in the perpetual now, with all future and past feelings and facts forced to match exactly what is going on in his head today... .you've got nearly infinite chances to practice, and your old failures won't matter for you! 

[vortex of confusion]

You are expressing those emotions in... .err... .kinda violent and inappropriate ways, not as an extinction burst, but because you are just figuring out how to express and deal with your emotions.

I was only violent ONE time. Most of the other times, it has been more subtle passive aggressive stuff.

If that is the case for me, then why isn't the case for the pwBPD. If the pwBPD has been latching onto the non and is forced to face his feelings without deflecting it on me, then it would make sense that he might be having some of the same experiences of not knowing what to do with his emotions if he isn't allowed to dump them on me.

You are still working out better/healthier ways to do it. You are making progress. Blowing up at him is better than stuffing it completely. You see that blowing up at him may rarely work out well... .but more often makes things worse. I expect it will take a while; be patient with yourself!

I don't sabatoge things by blowing up. I don't usually blow up. I am more prone to shutting down unless I have reached a certain point. I don't want to shut down. I want to push through the discomfort and have uncomfortable conversations without shutting down and without getting snarky. I am way more apt to get sarcastic and snarky than I am to blow up.

In a way your lucky--since a pwBPD is stuck living in the perpetual now, with all future and past feelings and facts forced to match exactly what is going on in his head today... .you've got nearly infinite chances to practice, and your old failures won't matter for you! 

I wake up every day realizing how lucky I am for so many reasons. I try not to ever be ungrateful. No matter what the situation is, there is something to be grateful for at the end of the day.

[Jessica84]

Wow. Every single word GK wrote is golden. I never fully understood the extinction burst. Great metaphor! And his analysis of what happens to us after the extinction burst is another great metaphor. I know I have stuffed emotions for the sake of keeping the peace, and always wondered why when things were improving I became the angry one... . I think I get it now. Thank you!

VOC- gratitude is soo important. With all the trauma drama we've experienced, finding something to be grateful is a gift we should give ourselves every single day. Don't get me wrong... . It seems only natural to revert to your old suspicions of why he is accepting your boundaries of fewer phone calls at work. Experience has taught you to be suspicious. Keep embracing gratitude, try to let the past go and overcome your fears. 

[cloudten]

This hit a sweet spot for me too!  I have been relating it to my ROCD though... . and not necessarily an extinction burst... . but it makes perfect sense! I don't know what to do about it though.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, when you stop accepting abuse and projection from him, he has to find another way to cope with his feelings... .and yes, it will probably be difficult for him too.

You are still working out better/healthier ways to do it. You are making progress. Blowing up at him is better than stuffing it completely. You see that blowing up at him may rarely work out well... .but more often makes things worse. I expect it will take a while; be patient with yourself!

I don't sabatoge things by blowing up. I don't usually blow up. I am more prone to shutting down unless I have reached a certain point. I don't want to shut down. I want to push through the discomfort and have uncomfortable conversations without shutting down and without getting snarky. I am way more apt to get sarcastic and snarky than I am to blow up.

Blow up, snark attack, or whatever... .you see how you've been reacting... .and are getting better at picking a constructive one instead of a destructive one.

And yes, it is a process. Keep working on it. If you can deal with your H well... .you can deal with nearly anybody on the planet well--The chance that other people will challenge you more is really slim.