Had a normal conversation

[Hmcbart]

I had a normal conversation with a friends wife this evening. The things I was able to say without having to run it through my uBPDw filter first was nice. I didn't worry about her misunderstanding me or taking my words and twisting them around. It was just a fun light hearted conversation. I don't get that very often.

I guess I'm now a little depressed knowing I won't be able to have conversations like that with my wife. Part of me wishes I took the "blue pill" and I never started reading and learning about any of this. Ignorance truly is bliss.

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[OffRoad]

But was it really bliss? You knew something was different with your wife, or you wouldn't be here.  <<Matrix guy

I'm with you on the conversation thing, though. When I go out off roading with my friends and sit around the fire chatting with them, it's so NORMAL. They LIKE me. I have GOOD ideas and opinions. I'm not the BAD person who is ALWAYS saying the wrong thing. I can ask a question and not be treated like I'm trying to set them up for something.

Keep up with non BPD friends. They will save your sanity.

[Hmcbart]

My wife once told me that I had multiple personalities because of how I act and speak around my friends and co-workers versus the way I am around her. It wasn't until last year when I started learning about this stuff did I understand.

I brought it up with my therapist and he just laughed. He said its because I don't have to worry about them misunderstanding me or getting upset by an innocent comment.

Of course my wife said she doesn't like the other me. She thinks he is not as nice. I always laugh to myself about it because the other me she is referring to, that's the guy she married 17 years ago. Not the one who filters everything he says.

[maxsterling]

Boy, I know this feeling.  The trick is, make sure you have enough of these "normal" conversations in your life to balance out the strenuous BPD ones.  That's what I am facing now, my wife wants to spend 100% of the time with me as a couple.   I like spending time with her, but I need that one day a week break to keep me balanced.

[Hmcbart]

I'm learning this now. I've devoted so much of my time and energy to her that it's hard to change. I've accepted the guilt and blame for everything for so long. Now that I am seeing what's on the other side of the fog it's scary. Mostly because of the realization of what I have become.

I'm under no illusions that I'm the one who accepted it for all the years. Hind sight being what it is, I had the power to stop "it" but didn't know what "it" was.

It's funny how things I thought were normal were not. I feel like I'm the main character in a mystery movie. When things start to click and you have flashbacks to things that happened years ago. Signs you didn't notice then but when played back now lead to an inescapable conclusion.  It was always there but I just never had the knowledge to put it all together.

The drawback to having these normal conversations is the resentment I feel after. She can read me like a book and knows when something is bothering me. The question is how to keep from feeling that resentment while trying to reduce the chance of her raging? Any attempt to escape for a bit and be normal is followed by a subtle but well timed guilt trip. And the kids are always the reason behind it.

She is a master manipulator. I am pretty sure she qualifies as an emotional abuser but that would never stand up in court. I could fill this forum with stories from the past 19 years. The things I only understand now, after learning about pd's abd BPD.

I can't change the past, I just have to learn to reshape my future.

[misuniadziubek]

It's funny how things I thought were normal were not. I feel like I'm the main character in a mystery movie. When things start to click and you have flashbacks to things that happened years ago. Signs you didn't notice then but when played back now lead to an inescapable conclusion.  It was always there but I just never had the knowledge to put it all together.

This part really resonates with me. It's conditioning for the most part. What before the relationship wasn't normal became normal over time. I've also had the most intense paradigm shifts while being with my partner. Ones that affect on a global scale. You started to realise just how horribly enabling your behaviours and reactions were towards a pwBPD. I realised myself how often I invalidated his feelings. I handled things terribly.

That is not to say that I am to blame for the problem or his dysregulation, but rather that I spent my life thinking that certain things were normal, that I -had- to live this way. That I was the victim. This applies to other relationships of dysfunction with former friends as well. So yeah. I have had many flashbacks of fights and disagreements and rages where I think, holy sh** I could have handled that so much better. I should have protected myself. I should have understood why he acted like that in that situation. Should. Should. Should. The proof was in the pudding but you were eating it absent-mindedly.

Except that guilt tears you apart. That is the past. You didn't know. Nobody knows these things unless they grew up with this sort of dysfunction or had previous interactions with the disorder. You did the very best you could with the tools you had in every single situation. You reacted only how you knew how. Had you known, things maybe would have evolved differently, but how could you have know?

A pwBPD isn't a master manipulator by choice. They don't often realise what they are doing. They just know it works. It's how they protect themselves, how they cope.

It's not fair you had to go through that. Especially for so long. It's hard to change, but it's not impossible.

[maxsterling]

I also am dealing with the issue of having flashbacks.  I think I spent so much effort just managing in the present time, putting events and issues on "shelves", and now that things have calmed a little, I feel like it is all cropping back up.  I close my eyes to sleep and I have visions of her screaming at me in the car, or of her threatening to kill herself, or her blaming me for something or other.  I then feel extremely anxious, and I feel my body tense up in pain and twitch.  I find myself spacing out at work, and just generally feeling down about all this, and down in general.  My self confidence and self image is low, when it is normally fairly high, and I just don't feel motivated to take care of myself. 

I take this to mean that I am emotionally going through the process of processing what I had previously "shelved".  I don't know how long this process will take, but I just feel so sensitive to everything right now.  Even the tiniest criticisms now feel so crushing. 

[Hmcbart]

Mis: I agree with you, especially on the part about them not manipulating us on purpose. That's the one thing I try to keep reminding myself every time I remember the things that have happened.

The constant hurdles that get placed in front of me, only to clear them and have more being set up. "If you would do more of X&Y then I would do more of Z". Then when I do my part she has more X&Y that now needs to be done. It's never ending and very tiring.

Max: the criticisms get me the most. I've been working with my therapist on that issue in particular. I'm going through a lot this week because of something that happened litterally one year ago. The way she deflated me with her words still haunts me. She was able to take my self esteem from a 100 to a -100 in one sentence.

The one person who I really wanted validation that day and I got stomped on. I think it's taken me the whole year to rebuild some of my self esteem. I'm worried that it will happen again this weekend.

More importantly, I'm worried how I will react if it does. I filter my words very well even on the worst days. I'm just not sure if I want to use the filter anymore. My empathy and compassion for her is not as high as it once was.

I usually never talk to any of our friends about things. I have always tried to protect her from them thinking negatively about her. But in the last view weeks I have said more to people about the things she has said and done than ever before. Even her best friends who mostly think I'm a real jerk who treats his wife terrible all the time, I now tell the unfiltered truth. I even sent some texts to one of them to show what I said that made her mad followed by her response.

I'm really at a point where I don't care what anyone else thinks anymore. I know this will only hurt things more because they may treat her differently but I've lost a lot of my ability to care.

I'm sorry for the depressing words. I guess I'm in a rough place right now. It helps to get it out on here. Even if I'm not supposed to vent, it still helps.

[Hmcbart]

I guess after reading other posts I should really shorten these up. I have way too much in my head and it comes out in the form of a novel.

[Michelle27]

I guess after reading other posts I should really shorten these up. I have way too much in my head and it comes out in the form of a novel.

Sometimes you have to let it all out, I have been there.  I don't think anyone minds that you wrote a lot.   

[OffRoad]

It's funny how things I thought were normal were not. I feel like I'm the main character in a mystery movie. When things start to click and you have flashbacks to things that happened years ago. Signs you didn't notice then but when played back now lead to an inescapable conclusion.  It was always there but I just never had the knowledge to put it all together.

know what you are saying here. It's like you knew something wasn't right, but didn't know why and kept thinking it was your fault somehow. I went through years of thinking I did something to start a fight, but later learned so many of them were him picking a fight so that he could go off and be alone and it wouldn't be his "fault" for wanting his alone time (Like I would care... .) Once I recognized them for what they were, they didn't happen as often because I'd stop them before they started. But I still didn't know why they happened. Then I found this site and now I feel like the curtain has been lifted.

The drawback to having these normal conversations is the resentment I feel after. She can read me like a book and knows when something is bothering me. The question is how to keep from feeling that resentment while trying to reduce the chance of her raging? Any attempt to escape for a bit and be normal is followed by a subtle but well timed guilt trip. And the kids are always the reason behind it.

I'm curious, how does she always make it about the kids? Are you not allowed any time to yourself?

[Hmcbart]

She tells me all the time that I need to do things for myself. I think that's her way of being able to say she didn't tell me not to do something (more on this later). I am gone a lot for work and because of this I do miss a lot of things with the family. I can come home after being gone for 3 days and as soon as I walk in I need to handle everything. Homework, housework, dinner, it's all on me.

Anytime I have tried to relax after being gone and working I am met with the fact that I never do anything around the house. I need to spend time with the boys because they haven't seen me in three days.

As soon I try to do something for me, she developes a headache or some other illness that keeps her from being able to take care of anything around the house. Like the stress of me being gone is just too much for her to handle. Then after I have done everything around the house for my one or two days off, I have no time left for myself.

I will admit that I do feel guilty about being gone and not being able to spend as much time with my family. I'm sure I have as much responsibility for that feeling as she does.

[Hmcbart]

She tells me all the time that I need to do things for myself. I think that's her way of being able to say she didn't tell me not to do something (more on this later).

I have said before that she is a master manipulator.  Wether she knows she is doing it or not is something I feel is up for debate.

She will request set up little traps (not sure what to call them). A way for her to get out of being responsible for things. In the case of me doing things for me self. She frequently tells me I need to do things for myself. I need to find a hobby that I can do. Then when I try to do it I will be guilted into not doing it.

When I finally have had enough and I say something, she quickly reminds me how she is always telling me I need have a hobby. So any complaining I do about not having any time for me is my fault.

I would like to say that in no way to I feel that a stay at home mom doesn't do a lot of work. I agree whole heartedly that it is a tough job.

I only have an issue with someone who tries to use this as a reason for not doing something that should be done. Both kids are in school all day. I take them to school 2-3 days each week. I pick them up a couple of times a month. When I'm home I do their homework with them and cook dinner 90% of the time. I clean and do dishes and wash and fold my own laundry.

I get a little upset when I come home to her laying on the couch upstairs with another headache. Then I find out that the house is a wreck the dishes are all over the kitchen and they've been eating out for lunch and dinner everyday.

Sorry I got side tracked on my reason for the post.

I have actually called her out on her tactics a few times. I've told her that she asks questions and says things with the intent of using them later to justify why I'm the one to blame for what ever happened to anger her. I will try to think of some examples and post later.

[Jessica84]

BPD logic often expects the impossible. Remind yourself you can't be in 2 places at once. If you're gone for work so you can provide for your family, you can't also be at home doing chores for your family. Go easy on yourself. Do the best you can, and let go of the guilt for the things you physically cannot do.

As for resentment, I think it's important to let our BPD filters air out from time to time. Good social interactions with non's is a great way to do this! Our filters can get clogged being around a gloomy gus all the time. I used to resent the fact I couldn't have normal conversations with him. Now I am grateful for the interactions I can have with almost anyone else where I can drop the filter for a minute... . even if it's just a polite waiter, cashier, stranger on an elevator... .

[Hmcbart]

I understand you ideas Jessica. The difficulty lies in the application.

I am the only one working so my income provides everything. I'm not a neat freak by any stretch of the imagination but do like to have clean dishes to cook with, floors that don't crunch when I walk on them, the little things. I even bought a roomba to do the floors downstairs, all she has to do is hit the button to start it.

The funnier part is when we did go to MC last year it was because she was unhappy with the distribution of housework. She claimed she was doing everything. Can you say projecting. Even went so far as to create a chore list of the things I needed/ required to do and the things she would do. I bet you can't figure out who was the first to not do their part of the housework!

Needless to say, there are things that have to get done on a daily or weekly basis. She's already proven that she isn't going to do it. It still has to get done, so for the sake of my kids and my sanity I do it all.

As for resentment: I notice that I get a little more resentful and angry after I've had a conversation with normal people.  We've go to friends houses for dinner and I get home feeling bitter. Especially if I've sat there the whole time using my BPD filter. Because I know that when its all over and we are home, anything I said, can and will be used against me. 

[Jessica84]

I've heard of people having "chore lists". Maybe you can print one up weekly, post on the refrigerator, and check off what you have done? Hard to argue with a page full of checkmarks!

[Hmcbart]

Jessica I like that idea. I am not a pessimist but I'm pretty sure she will dysregulate over it somehow.  That being said, I'm still going to do it. I have copies of the chore list she created in MC. It has who she assigned to each chore. This could get ugly... .

[OffRoad]

I think I understand now, Hmcbart.

If you have a normal conversation with someone else when she is present, it triggers her because she knows you don't have conversations like that with her. But you can't have conversations like that with her because those will trigger her, too. So she has to make the version of you that has normal conversations into someone she doesn't like as well.

A boundary you can set for yourself is that you will have X time for yourself every day, week, whatever. And you take that time, no matter what she says. Everyone needs time to themselves. Don't give up yourself.

You might also consider taking time with your kids to do something (Go to lunch, to the park, play a game, go bowling, whatever). Maybe find another dad that wants to do the same with their kids.

Another thought is that you could enlist the help of the kids with chores. Even little ones can do small things. I use a chore list and that seems to help. My H loves a checklist.

Now that you know about BPD, there is a lot you can learn about working with a person with BPD. The lessons are great, and I've read a few good books like How to Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist (good for seeing where you are over caretaking) and I Don't Have to Make Everything Better (good for validation)

[Hmcbart]

Offroad:

I do have the kids help with a lot of the chores. There are certain ones we don't do because they are  triggers and she reacts negatively. She will often times over rule my authority and tell them they don't have to do it for what ever reason. It's a very sensitive issue at the house.

I do have a lot of things I do with the kids. Cub scouts and Boy Scouts mainly. We are all three into video games. I wish they would get interested in dirt bikes but no luck so far. It's the ability to have any time to myself or God forbid with her.

As far as normal people. Yes, you've got it one the nose. I've had other friends we've hung out with that know how she reacts (they don't know about BPD) to things I do and say. They intentionally try to get me into the conversation. They are usually my friends wives and the topics usually are sexual in nature but not personal, more funny. She absolutely hates when I talk with them. She doesn't get mad at them, just me.

[OffRoad]

They intentionally try to get me into the conversation. They are usually my friends wives and the topics usually are sexual in nature but not personal, more funny. She absolutely hates when I talk with them. She doesn't get mad at them, just me.

Well, yeah. You get that, right?

[Hmcbart]

Yeah, I do get that one. I have had her say "how would you feel if I was talking like that with someone's husband?" While my reply was not the correct one it was truthful. I told her that I would be excited that you actually acknowledged such a thing as sex.

At this point it had been about 11 months since we had any type of sexual thing. That's a whole new thread and I'm afraid I'd crash the server with my thoughts on that one.

[Michelle27]

I've heard of people having "chore lists". Maybe you can print one up weekly, post on the refrigerator, and check off what you have done? Hard to argue with a page full of checkmarks!

Before I knew that what I was dealing with was BPD and I was trying to come up with solutions to solve the roundy round arguments, we tried a chore chart at the suggestion of a marriage counselor.  Yeah, as soon as it became obvious that my teenage daughter from my first marriage did WAY more than him (as he projected constantly that she didn't do enough while he did almost nothing)m he wanted no more part of it.  To add insult to injury I discovered later that he was actually telling his family that he did 95% of the household chores leaving me doing almost nothing when the absolute reverse was true.  When I found that out, I actually made him call them in front of me and correct it... .he called his sister but refused to call his Dad, saying he would do it later.  I still don't know if he ever did... .

[Hmcbart]

I had something similar our first time in MC. She was seeing him as a therapist first and we switched to MC with the same guy. When we started discussing these things and I looked at them both and said that I do everything she wants already. She had to eat crow in from of him and tell him that I actually did do a lot of the housework. I think we went 3 more times before she decided he and I were hanging up on her and she felt victimized.

I'm expecting a bit of an uproar by putting up the list but I'm going to do it anyway.

[Jessica84]

Maybe you can let her know the list is more for YOU? - so you don't forget what needs to be done. Tell her it's there so you can do a better job at home. I'm sure you already are, but you could try using SET to validate her. I'm really not so good at it, but here's my feeble attempt... .

SET = Support/Sympathy for her with all the house chores that must be done... . Empathy for how overwhelmed she feels about all the details... . Truth is you want to help and contribute, and the list is to help so you don't forget anything.

If she dysregulates anyway, well... . you tried.

[Hmcbart]

Thanks Jessica. I like that approach better than asking her to help with anything.

If she dysregulates anyway, well you tried

It's kind of like working for the bomb disposal team. You know you have something dangerous and will explode at some point regardless of what you do but you still have to clip a wire and hope it's the correct one... .I'm hoping it's the green wire, I'm cutting the green wire!

[Jessica84]

Oh I think we've ALL cut the wrong wire before! I would advise against the green wire if that's your first instinct. I've learned my gut instincts fail me when it comes to BPD. Everything is backwards and counterintuitive. So go with the red one, the red one!

[Hmcbart]

I've got about another hour left of my drive home. I've decided to wait until next week to do or say anything. We will all be camping with cub scouts this weekend and would rather not trigger her before that. Dysregulation sucks but when your in charge of 50 other people it sucks times 100.

I'm holding to to the red wire. Worse case scenario is explosion. It's not like I haven't cut the wrong wire before... .what happens if there's a purple wire?

[OffRoad]

I'm holding to to the red wire. Worse case scenario is explosion. It's not like I haven't cut the wrong wire before... .what happens if there's a purple wire?

I dunno. Is that red wire like the red pill?