Does it ever seem like they are over influenced by their parents?

[workinprogress]

?

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[an0ught]

The in-laws and their relationship to our loved ones and ourselves and is a complex topic. Maybe you can elaborate what specific behaviors you are struggling with?

[workinprogress]

The in-laws and their relationship to our loved ones and ourselves and is a complex topic. Maybe you can elaborate what specific behaviors you are struggling with?

My in-laws seem to always dangle money in front of my wife.  My father in law always gives her money.  I think it keeps her from trying to work harder and become successful.  Instead of making an effort, she goes to her dad.

I also think that they control her in a way with money.

Also, my brother in law said that my in-laws go to my wife's work and that they verbally are not nice to her.  She has never said anything about this to me.  In fact, a great deal of things that go on with her parents I never hear about.

It seems like her parents are the ones who make her decisions for her.  It is very frustrating for me.

For years I would want my wife to go on vacation with me.  She never would, she said she didn't want to spend the money.   But, the second her parents say she should go somewhere she goes.

My brother in law also told me that my FIL tries to turn my wife against me.  Sometimes I feel like I am in an impossible situation.

[waverider]

My in-laws seem to always dangle money in front of my wife.  My father in law always gives her money.  I think it keeps her from trying to work harder and become successful.  Instead of making an effort, she goes to her dad.

I also think that they control her in a way with money.

I get this too, and it is handed out in a very controlling way to maintain parental authority.

It is all part of the dysfunctional family dynamics, and probably a contributing factor in their development. It denies the development of independence and fuels neediness, which is then exploited by the parents to validate their own authority and sense of importance.

A kind of distorted codependency

[workinprogress]

My in-laws seem to always dangle money in front of my wife.  My father in law always gives her money.  I think it keeps her from trying to work harder and become successful.  Instead of making an effort, she goes to her dad.

I also think that they control her in a way with money.

I get this too, and it is handed out in a very controlling way to maintain parental authority.

It is all part of the dysfunctional family dynamics, and probably a contributing factor in their development. It denies the development of independence and fuels neediness, which is then exploited by the parents to validate their own authority and sense of importance.

A kind of distorted codependency

Yes, I see that very clearly now.  I also think it impacts my wife in her "what does this person have to offer me" mentality.  I think that she wasn't taught to take care of herself financially, and her parents were always there for her, so she didn't have to learn to make good decisions.

Whereas, I was out on my own at a youngish age.  I had to endure some terribly poor years with no one to turn to, and I learned to do what I had to do to make it.

[vortex of confusion]

I have this on both sides with my parents and his parents (now just his mom).

My husband has spent most of our married life trying to get the approval of his parents. He has taken jobs and said, "Now my mom and dad can brag about having a son that is <fill in fancy schmancy job title>.

He took a job out of state to be closer to his parents. His mother insisted that we live with them. Husband didn't argue even though I said it wasn't a good idea. I eventually gave up and gave in. When we lived with them, I had no say in anything. She nitpicked me and the kids to death. She would tell my husband horrible things about me. I have stomach issues. She told my husband that all my stomach issues were because I don't know how to cook right and use too much spice. That was news to me because I spent me entire life up until that point having people love my cooking.

I was reading different articles and came across this one about Emotional Incest and parents: https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

My husband was his mother's favorite. His dad was largely disconnected and did NOT have conversations with people. As a result, MIL talked to my husband all of the time. In the article that I linked above, it says this:

Spouse of the Chosen Child when the chosen child grows up and marries, his/her spouse may find him/herself engaged in a rather disturbing triangle with the chosen child and invasive parent

My parents aren't much different when it comes to being controlling. The difference is that I was aware of their tactics and would actively work to combat it. The problem that I sometimes have is that I go to my husband for help on things and he is captain clueless. As a result, there are times when I resort to seeking help from my parents.

In college, I dated a guy and was engaged to him. My parents hated that guy and there was a lot of ickiness around it. In hindsight, my parents didn't like the guy because they guy encouraged me to be independent and not let my parents control me. When I met my husband, my parents loved him. I think it is because they saw my husband as a weak person that would not interfere their ability to be controlling. All of the things that my parents said that this other guy was going to do to me are actually all of the things that my husband has done.

[an0ught]

Yes, I see that very clearly now.  I also think it impacts my wife in her "what does this person have to offer me" mentality.  I think that she wasn't taught to take care of herself financially, and her parents were always there for her, so she didn't have to learn to make good decisions.

Whereas, I was out on my own at a youngish age.  I had to endure some terribly poor years with no one to turn to, and I learned to do what I had to do to make it.

that may well be part of it but there is a lot more to it.

Let's look at boundaries:

  Parents heavily interfering with your marriage (money, how to spend vacation) - lack of boundaries between couple and in-laws.

  You feeling left out of decisions - boundaries between FOO and you

  Wife heavily influence by FOO - weak boundaries on wife's side

Then we have:

  Wife hiding verbal abuse (or not being able to recognize abuse or less likely brother playing games and lying)

  Wife feeling not worthy of vacation

  You feeling somewhat jealous

  You feeling not respected

  You feeling helpless

The way this dynamic works I suspect there is some narcissistic element on the parents side. There is not a single solution as there are multiple contributors to the dysfunction each requiring a targeted approach. From what you write the link is incredibly strong. Ultimately it is her who owns her relationship with her parents and interfering with it is problematic. That does not mean you can't do anything to turn this into a healthier dynamic:

1) Assertiveness on your side.

For years I would want my wife to go on vacation with me.  She never would, she said she didn't want to spend the money.

You want. You would like her to fully support and agree with that decision. But she feels not worth the money spent on vacation and may be afraid of parental feedback. Asking her to come to a consensus decision is a responsibility too heavy for her. Note the she would go along with her parents - do you think she has a joint say in that and bears the weight of the decision? Don't think so. She is coming from a place and is still connected to a place that dominates her and she is used to that sort of thing. It may be your ideal to have a joint leadership in your marriage but she is not yet emotionally grown enough. How do you want to lead?

2) Boundary skill learning for your wife

In real life there are plenty of smaller conflicts with others. You as a couple not just with her parents but also with others. It can help to reason these things through - do we need to and if yes how do we draw the line - what is really important to us, values, consequences - what will happen, will we see an escalation, will we see it burn out (extinction burst). The more clean and explicit we go about as a team drawing lines the more can be learned.

In that light being clear about your boundaries in the relationship is equally important. Be a consistent role model.

3) Respect

Identify her boundaries. Tell her when you notice a boundary to raise awareness. Respect her boundaries. That does not mean to accept unreasonable boundaries without raising fuss. Treat her when possible as an adult - and it is at times impossible so it is a balancing act - she is not getting that from parents.

4) Validation

You are in competition with the parents here who have the advantage of a much stronger attachment. The parents right now seem to act as a reliable source of validation telling her she is worthless or similar. You can be better, listen more closely, knowing exactly how she feels and while she feels not important enough to spend money on her vacation she is important to you.

5) Vacation, time away, moving away

It will be impossible to tell her to not focus on the parents. So she needs to engage elsewhere meaningfully to give her enough links and self confidence to establish basic boundaries with her parents.

6) Identity as couple

We as a couple do this... .This ties with boundaries and time away but is more about how you fill the fuzzy space in between with color e.g. distinct rituals (preferably ones that differ from FOO).

7) Talk

I guess you have tried this. If not SET and DEARMAN are your friends. You will have to talk eventually, maybe she is not ready yet.

8) Own boundaries

Some interference may be so disturbing that you can't accept it in your marriage. You may have to draw a line and the typical consequences available to you may range from not participating in events to possibly breaking up. In part this is power play against her parents and from what you wrote you are in a weak position. It may pay to strengthen your side of the board first.

9) Leverage parents

They cause pain and do not respect your wife. They will sabotage the relationship with their daughter again and again without your contribution. Validation creates awareness.

10) Therapy for her - any

T's tend to zoom into parent-child relationships for a living.

11) How do you know you have made progress?

You will notice. If she starts opening up about FOO dynamics she is not so happy about that would be one sign. Her getting a handle on boundaries another.

I see no quick, effortless and painless shortcut to her growing up and emancipating herself from her parents. This will take time.

[workinprogress]

Yes, I see that very clearly now.  I also think it impacts my wife in her "what does this person have to offer me" mentality.  I think that she wasn't taught to take care of herself financially, and her parents were always there for her, so she didn't have to learn to make good decisions.

Whereas, I was out on my own at a youngish age.  I had to endure some terribly poor years with no one to turn to, and I learned to do what I had to do to make it.

that may well be part of it but there is a lot more to it.

Let's look at boundaries:

  Parents heavily interfering with your marriage (money, how to spend vacation) - lack of boundaries between couple and in-laws.

  You feeling left out of decisions - boundaries between FOO and you

  Wife heavily influence by FOO - weak boundaries on wife's side

Then we have:

  Wife hiding verbal abuse (or not being able to recognize abuse or less likely brother playing games and lying)

  Wife feeling not worthy of vacation

  You feeling somewhat jealous

  You feeling not respected

  You feeling helpless

The way this dynamic works I suspect there is some narcissistic element on the parents side. There is not a single solution as there are multiple contributors to the dysfunction each requiring a targeted approach. From what you write the link is incredibly strong. Ultimately it is her who owns her relationship with her parents and interfering with it is problematic. That does not mean you can't do anything to turn this into a healthier dynamic:

1) Assertiveness on your side.

For years I would want my wife to go on vacation with me.  She never would, she said she didn't want to spend the money.

You want. You would like her to fully support and agree with that decision. But she feels not worth the money spent on vacation and may be afraid of parental feedback. Asking her to come to a consensus decision is a responsibility too heavy for her. Note the she would go along with her parents - do you think she has a joint say in that and bears the weight of the decision? Don't think so. She is coming from a place and is still connected to a place that dominates her and she is used to that sort of thing. It may be your ideal to have a joint leadership in your marriage but she is not yet emotionally grown enough. How do you want to lead?

2) Boundary skill learning for your wife

In real life there are plenty of smaller conflicts with others. You as a couple not just with her parents but also with others. It can help to reason these things through - do we need to and if yes how do we draw the line - what is really important to us, values, consequences - what will happen, will we see an escalation, will we see it burn out (extinction burst). The more clean and explicit we go about as a team drawing lines the more can be learned.

In that light being clear about your boundaries in the relationship is equally important. Be a consistent role model.

3) Respect

Identify her boundaries. Tell her when you notice a boundary to raise awareness. Respect her boundaries. That does not mean to accept unreasonable boundaries without raising fuss. Treat her when possible as an adult - and it is at times impossible so it is a balancing act - she is not getting that from parents.

4) Validation

You are in competition with the parents here who have the advantage of a much stronger attachment. The parents right now seem to act as a reliable source of validation telling her she is worthless or similar. You can be better, listen more closely, knowing exactly how she feels and while she feels not important enough to spend money on her vacation she is important to you.

5) Vacation, time away, moving away

It will be impossible to tell her to not focus on the parents. So she needs to engage elsewhere meaningfully to give her enough links and self confidence to establish basic boundaries with her parents.

6) Identity as couple

We as a couple do this... .This ties with boundaries and time away but is more about how you fill the fuzzy space in between with color e.g. distinct rituals (preferably ones that differ from FOO).

7) Talk

I guess you have tried this. If not SET and DEARMAN are your friends. You will have to talk eventually, maybe she is not ready yet.

8) Own boundaries

Some interference may be so disturbing that you can't accept it in your marriage. You may have to draw a line and the typical consequences available to you may range from not participating in events to possibly breaking up. In part this is power play against her parents and from what you wrote you are in a weak position. It may pay to strengthen your side of the board first.

9) Leverage parents

They cause pain and do not respect your wife. They will sabotage the relationship with their daughter again and again without your contribution. Validation creates awareness.

10) Therapy for her - any

T's tend to zoom into parent-child relationships for a living.

11) How do you know you have made progress?

You will notice. If she starts opening up about FOO dynamics she is not so happy about that would be one sign. Her getting a handle on boundaries another.

I see no quick, effortless and painless shortcut to her growing up and emancipating herself from her parents. This will take time.

aNought, you hit the nail on the head on so many levels!  This is all exactly what I am going through!  I feel left out and jealous. 

I will work on the boundaries.  It is funny, all she can say is how great her parents were/are.  I don't see it.

I see them hovering around all the time.  It's annoying.  Yet, they are great to me.  Even though they are great to me, my MIL will make disparaging comments about my wife to me, and I always say, "no, she is not that way... ." or some such gentle correction.  She no longer says things like that to me now.

[workinprogress]

I have this on both sides with my parents and his parents (now just his mom).

My husband has spent most of our married life trying to get the approval of his parents. He has taken jobs and said, "Now my mom and dad can brag about having a son that is <fill in fancy schmancy job title>.

He took a job out of state to be closer to his parents. His mother insisted that we live with them. Husband didn't argue even though I said it wasn't a good idea. I eventually gave up and gave in. When we lived with them, I had no say in anything. She nitpicked me and the kids to death. She would tell my husband horrible things about me. I have stomach issues. She told my husband that all my stomach issues were because I don't know how to cook right and use too much spice. That was news to me because I spent me entire life up until that point having people love my cooking.

I was reading different articles and came across this one about Emotional Incest and parents: https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

My husband was his mother's favorite. His dad was largely disconnected and did NOT have conversations with people. As a result, MIL talked to my husband all of the time. In the article that I linked above, it says this:

Spouse of the Chosen Child when the chosen child grows up and marries, his/her spouse may find him/herself engaged in a rather disturbing triangle with the chosen child and invasive parent

My parents aren't much different when it comes to being controlling. The difference is that I was aware of their tactics and would actively work to combat it. The problem that I sometimes have is that I go to my husband for help on things and he is captain clueless. As a result, there are times when I resort to seeking help from my parents.

In college, I dated a guy and was engaged to him. My parents hated that guy and there was a lot of ickiness around it. In hindsight, my parents didn't like the guy because they guy encouraged me to be independent and not let my parents control me. When I met my husband, my parents loved him. I think it is because they saw my husband as a weak person that would not interfere their ability to be controlling. All of the things that my parents said that this other guy was going to do to me are actually all of the things that my husband has done.

VOC, my parents were very controlling.  I complied and submitted until I couldn't take it anymore and moved out when I was 18.  I tried to work full time and go to college full time.  It was very difficult.  They would basically stalk me at work or my apartment.  It was crazy. 

I also dated a woman that they hated.  My mom would rage about her.  My mom was a big obese raging woman.  She would jump up and down and yell that my gf was a "b-word!"  All I wanted was to work, go to school, and enjoy life a little. 

I don't know what happened with my folks.  The pressure was unbearable.

[workinprogress]

Some interesting events occurred today.

My wife invited her parents over for dinner.  She brings up having some work done on our deck.  The same deck that she balked at me cleaning and staining last year.  She didn't like the idea, so, in keeping the peace, I let it go.

Well, today her dad said, "your deck just needs cleaned and stained."  My wife was all for it!

This drives me nuts.  It feels like my house is not my home.  Her parents have to have their nose in all our stuff by my wife's invitation! 

They had long discussions about the work.  I would make a point about something that needed done, and no one would listen.

At one point my wife said, "This will be a family project."  To me a family project would consist of us and our kids.

Sometimes it feels like her parents are so intertwined in our lives that we have barely had any projects or recreation as just me, my wife, and our kids!

I'm tired of them!

[waverider]

Have you actually spelled out this exact concern?

You may just have to use some boundaries and deal with the wrath when it comes

  She didn't like the idea, so, in keeping the peace, I let it go.

This is where you might have to start making changes. Ultimately she is all too often having the final decision.

[confusedwoman]

I dated my ex for four years and though I didn't catch onto it for a while, I eventually realized how strange his entire family dynamic was, and that he did and still does depend on them for a LOT, probably more than is healthy. He could be manipulated to do nearly anything for his mother or his two younger sisters. His dad largely stayed out of it, but also contributed to the dynamic by allowing it to happen in his own ways. As a previous poster said, I think his mom and sisters were fond of me at first, and this lasted for a while, because they saw me as someone who wouldn't be an obstacle to them keeping things *just* the way they wanted. Once we began to have problems in our relationship, this changed. On many occasions they tried to sway my ex so that we would not be together. They attempted to drive a wedge between us and all too frequently overstepped their boundaries. Sometimes, my ex was aware of this dynamic, and when he realized it it seemed to anger him, as he didn't want anyone meddling in his/our business and didn't want to be seen as a weakling who had to have his mom and sisters do his dirty work for him. But in general, the family dynamic was very strange and still is. My ex and his father run their own business and are based out of his parents' home. One of his sisters still lives there with her child as well, and the other is over often. He sees his FOO a minimum of five days a week. This will never change. Is there any hope for you that your wife may become a bit more distanced from her FOO?

[workinprogress]

I dated my ex for four years and though I didn't catch onto it for a while, I eventually realized how strange his entire family dynamic was, and that he did and still does depend on them for a LOT, probably more than is healthy. He could be manipulated to do nearly anything for his mother or his two younger sisters. His dad largely stayed out of it, but also contributed to the dynamic by allowing it to happen in his own ways. As a previous poster said, I think his mom and sisters were fond of me at first, and this lasted for a while, because they saw me as someone who wouldn't be an obstacle to them keeping things *just* the way they wanted. Once we began to have problems in our relationship, this changed. On many occasions they tried to sway my ex so that we would not be together. They attempted to drive a wedge between us and all too frequently overstepped their boundaries. Sometimes, my ex was aware of this dynamic, and when he realized it it seemed to anger him, as he didn't want anyone meddling in his/our business and didn't want to be seen as a weakling who had to have his mom and sisters do his dirty work for him. But in general, the family dynamic was very strange and still is. My ex and his father run their own business and are based out of his parents' home. One of his sisters still lives there with her child as well, and the other is over often. He sees his FOO a minimum of five days a week. This will never change. Is there any hope for you that your wife may become a bit more distanced from her FOO?

I find it highly unlikely.  I think they use money to keep her coming back.  I know her siblings have less than stellar marriages, also.

I just feel that we never had a chance to be a couple due to all of this meddling.  I'm growing more and more tired of it every year.

I hear her tell her parents that she loves them all the time.  She has hardly told me that in years.

Am I just being petty?

[drummerboy]

Mine most certainly was. Her and her mom had a very needy, dependent relationship where her mother did everything for her daughter because the mom needed to be needed. My ex called her many times per day and once she told me "no one loves their mom as much as I do" I'm pretty sure her mom was the one the ended our relationship which is why my ex went into a deep depression for 6 months after she ended it. (Conflicted about her feelings for me and pleasing her mom) she told her mom EVERYTHING about her life and about our relationship. It was a sick mother/daughter dynamic. So glad I'm not in the relationship now and having a mother in law like that,

[workinprogress]

Mine most certainly was. Her and her mom had a very needy, dependent relationship where her mother did everything for her daughter because the mom needed to be needed. My ex called her many times per day and once she told me "no one loves their mom as much as I do" I'm pretty sure her mom was the one the ended our relationship which is why my ex went into a deep depression for 6 months after she ended it. (Conflicted about her feelings for me and pleasing her mom) she told her mom EVERYTHING about her life and about our relationship. It was a sick mother/daughter dynamic. So glad I'm not in the relationship now and having a mother in law like that,

You should be grateful that her mother ended things for you.

I don't know if I posted this or not, but my brother in law has told me that my wife's dad tries to turn her against me.  I can really tell that she keeps a great deal of things from me involving her parents.  I really find this disrespectful.

[vortex of confusion]

You should be grateful that her mother ended things for you.

I don't know if I posted this or not, but my brother in law has told me that my wife's dad tries to turn her against me.  I can really tell that she keeps a great deal of things from me involving her parents.  I really find this disrespectful.

I am going to play devil's advocate for a second. Why should she share stuff that involves her parents? Why is it disrespectful for her to have a relationship with her parents that does not include you?

Is it possible that she keeps things about them from you in order to protect you? What good would it do if she told you that her dad tries to turn her against you? Would that help or hurt? What do you think was your BIL's motive for telling you that?

[workinprogress]

You should be grateful that her mother ended things for you.

I don't know if I posted this or not, but my brother in law has told me that my wife's dad tries to turn her against me.  I can really tell that she keeps a great deal of things from me involving her parents.  I really find this disrespectful.

I am going to play devil's advocate for a second. Why should she share stuff that involves her parents? Why is it disrespectful for her to have a relationship with her parents that does not include you?

Is it possible that she keeps things about them from you in order to protect you? What good would it do if she told you that her dad tries to turn her against you? Would that help or hurt? What do you think was your BIL's motive for telling you that?

I think it is disrespectful because I have given everything to my wife.  She has shut me out of her life.  I am basically a sperm donation and a paycheck.  I know that sounds cold, but that's what I am.

I'm not sure why my BIL told me this, I think that he just wanted me to know, because my FIL does the same thing to his wife.  It's just that his wife tells him.

[vortex of confusion]

I think it is disrespectful because I have given everything to my wife.  She has shut me out of her life.  I am basically a sperm donation and a paycheck.  I know that sounds cold, but that's what I am.

I'm not sure why my BIL told me this, I think that he just wanted me to know, because my FIL does the same thing to his wife.  It's just that his wife tells him.

I am not sure that I am following your logic.

I am not quite sure how to articulate this so bear with me. Yes, you have given everything to your wife. Why does that make it disrespectful for her to not share stuff about her family with you? Does she shut you out of all parts of her life or is it just the stuff with her family?

Are there some other underlying feelings going on here? I know that there are times when I have felt jealous of the attention and consideration that my husband has given to his mother. I think he should be giving ME that attention and consideration. She has said some ugly things about me over the years. When we lived with her, she was downright abusive to me and the kids and it felt like he continually chose his mother over me. Could you be feeling jealous or slighted? I used to try to dress it up as something else. Now, it is what it is. I resented his mother and was jealous of the fact that he seemed to care more about her thoughts, feelings, input, etc. than he did mine. Now, I don't care. He can have whatever relationship he wants with his mother. I pretty much stay out of it. I put that old bitty in her place and haven't had a problem with her since. She and I are cordial to each other and we even talk from time to time. She is a nice enough person but I don't like how my husband has cared more about her than me in the past. If he wanted a mommy, he shouldn't have married me. He should have moved back home and let his mommy take care of him.

There have been times when I have even gotten a bit Biblical and brought up the fact that a husband and wife are supposed to leave their parents and cling to each other (or something like that.)

[workinprogress]

I think it is disrespectful because I have given everything to my wife.  She has shut me out of her life.  I am basically a sperm donation and a paycheck.  I know that sounds cold, but that's what I am.

I'm not sure why my BIL told me this, I think that he just wanted me to know, because my FIL does the same thing to his wife.  It's just that his wife tells him.

I am not sure that I am following your logic.

I am not quite sure how to articulate this so bear with me. Yes, you have given everything to your wife. Why does that make it disrespectful for her to not share stuff about her family with you? Does she shut you out of all parts of her life or is it just the stuff with her family?

Are there some other underlying feelings going on here? I know that there are times when I have felt jealous of the attention and consideration that my husband has given to his mother. I think he should be giving ME that attention and consideration. She has said some ugly things about me over the years. When we lived with her, she was downright abusive to me and the kids and it felt like he continually chose his mother over me. Could you be feeling jealous or slighted? I used to try to dress it up as something else. Now, it is what it is. I resented his mother and was jealous of the fact that he seemed to care more about her thoughts, feelings, input, etc. than he did mine. Now, I don't care. He can have whatever relationship he wants with his mother. I pretty much stay out of it. I put that old bitty in her place and haven't had a problem with her since. She and I are cordial to each other and we even talk from time to time. She is a nice enough person but I don't like how my husband has cared more about her than me in the past. If he wanted a mommy, he shouldn't have married me. He should have moved back home and let his mommy take care of him.

There have been times when I have even gotten a bit Biblical and brought up the fact that a husband and wife are supposed to leave their parents and cling to each other (or something like that.)

There have been times that I have said the same thing.

You see though, it's not just her parents that come before me.  It's the kids and all of her friends.  It's social media and working out.  It's everything.  It's so frustrating.

As for her dad, he keeps throwing his money around and I resent that.

I passed up two very good promotions in which my wife refused to move because she didn't want to leave her parents.

I am in a loveless and sexless marriage.

I don't know where to begin to try and fix things.  She won't talk about anything.  I hear stories about her saying sexual things to other guys.

I'm just stuck.